DB Cooper

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Well, it was a news story. They tend to make the background look like they want it to. They also tend to go for the "classic scientist" crap. Pouring liquid nitrogen is such a stereotype.
The liquid nitrogen flask looks real enough. I handled one of those a few years ago. (true story) Freshman college physics, the teacher got a couple gallons from a bovine husbandry outfit (frozen bull semen). He knew somebody there, the nitrogen was only a couple bucks, but the flask was worth a couple hundred. After a few standard tricks in class, the atronomy club used the rest to make and sell "instant ice cream". Mix up the heavy cream, flavors, fruit, whatever, add liquid nitrogen. Because of the speed of the freezing, the ice crystals are very small, the ice cream very smooth, and of course, a great show making it. Lots of fun. Good fund raiser.

Back to business, there was no real information in the news story. Nothing we can use here anyway. That is more about the reporting and editing by the news crew than about Tom K. They aren't going to go into the detail we want in a 3 minute news spot. It may have been the news crew's idea to put the labels on, and have the map on the computer, or Tom K could well have done it for their benifit without being asked. I don't see it having any effect on his results or credibility.

I want to know specifics about what he found. What are the discrepancies, how long was the money buried, where was it before it was buried at Tina Bar, all that stuff.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[TomKaye 1]

Guys,

It was all for show. I poured the LN2 specifically so they would have a shot of "smoking liquid" because that's what everyone THINKS a lab should look like. The pictures on the computers were put there to be plain and simple so they would reproduce in the video. Snowman is right though, it was an EDS system on the electron microscope I was pouring it into.

Yes in fact I do try and label all my samples. The jars labels were simply from a laser printer and packaging tape. With as many specimens as I have here I have to say organized with ID numbers etc so I can track my notes back to a particular piece. The sample stubs you saw all have laser engraved serial numbers underneath them.

Please believe me when i tell you that there was nothing of interest in the video. The electron microscope shot was of an actual fragment but there was nothing interesting on it. There are "particles" on everything when you look at it with an SEM.

We only agreed to do the video if we didn't have to release any info. When you publish a scientific paper they really frown upon you releasing info early.

TK

[snowmman 3]

Thanks Tom.
I realize you did the video cause Ckret asked you, cause he thought that would advance the investigation.

However, we wouldn't be truly digging into all possibilities if any new info just got a pass.

When I saw the mason jars I thought "Poor controlled environment" ..must not be doing controlled UV/O2/temperature exposure.

Then I saw the dollar bills in the water, and water samples and the various sand samples, including the "black sand" we wondered about from the photos of Tena Bar in recent times.

Then I saw the dollar bill with the hole cut out, that approximately matches the size of the sample holder for the SEM.

Put it all together, and I'm guessing you're looking for various mineral samples on the bills, and trying to replicate it on the dollar bill with current sand and water samples.

I wondered about the year of the dollar bill. I've read that ink has changed subtly over the years, even for various batches of bills.

It makes sense at this late date that only very stable kinds of analysis (like minerals, sand particles etc) could be accurately tested.

So that's all the thoughts in my head. Obviously I have no idea what you're doing. But we're all about speculation here and beholden to no one! Which is a good thing. Science is a contact sport.

Publish or Perish!

[TomKaye 1]

Snow,

Your on target with your comments. The hole was punched out of a modern bill for comparison under the SEM. The sands are for experiments and comparisons. We are still trying to figure out what is different about old and new bills and if it matters etc.

Don't let me stop you from from doing what this forum does!

TK

[377 22]

Thanks for the straightforward reply Tom! You did it just right, stopping short of adding a Jacobs ladder arc or Tesla coil and Theremin music.

When I was a kid the ice cream truck man used to give us a chunk of dry ice if we bough a couple of popsicles. Instantly we became "scientists" bubbling CO2 fog up by dropping the dry ice in a cup of water. We had no idea what science really was, but we knew we were doing it.

My theory, PURELY speculative, is that the money find story is bogus and the Dad lead the kid to the dig spot.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

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. I would note that even though there are spelling errors, the gunther letter is well laid-out for a proper business letter. The dashes are inserted at approprate places for split words? when the typewriter is close to the end of a line (remember this stuff was all done manually back then! periods, commas etc seem well placed.

There's no closing though, like "Yours" or "Thank you"

The salutation "Dear Mr. Gunther:" correctly has a colon for a business letter.

This is all interesting, because back then, fewer men would have taken a typing course (I did in high school), and would have known how to do the letter properly? It is nicely done, isn't it? Female secretaries did a lot of the typing back then.

Iit looks like that D is the sole correction with overstrike? (insertions not counted). Probably didn't have any erasure method? Whoever wrote it was a good typist. But not a secretary. Not good enough. But pretty good.

Oddly enough, even though the magazine article was 10 years old (1962), the author of the letter gets the title exactly correct (from memory?) ...including the dashes in "Fed-up" and "Do-It-Yourself"..including the correct capitalization (which probably matches the article)? I know this because the source of the cover I provided had transcribed it from the table of contents. I'm assuming he did the capitalization as in the TOC.

Should I scan and post all of the typing certificates Duane obtained in prison?

Certificate of Proficiency (20th Century Typewriting) - 71 words per minute April 25, 1955. Instructor Stanley J Fontz (prison),.

Certificate of Proficiency - Typing,
45 words per minute - April 8 1953.

So that was two classes in 2 yrs doubling his speed

State of California Certificate of Education Achievement # 4246 American Government Feb. 8 1952 - prison - signed by Alfred J. Rown (not certain of spelling).

State of California - U.S. History Nov. 5 1952 #4484 Prison.

This list goes on and on.

BOTH parents died while he was in this prison. His father in April of 1956 and his mother in May of 1958 - he was released from prison in that month but not in time for his mother's funeral as he had been promised. She had been on dialysis for 2 yrs.

Maybe he did have a grudge. He in 1971 was facing the same fate his mother experienced (per family after a stay in a GA hospital). The prognosis was not good at that time - staging of this disease had not been developed. Maybe this is what was going thru his mind...he was the baby of three with the brother being more than 10 yrs older and the sister I believe 6 yrs older.

Ok - end of that, but I had to get my two cents worth in about this. Things I have not told before but worth mentioning if there is a profiler lofting in this forum. Since the FBI is going to release a new profile for Cooper then they need to know all of the information on Weber and understand that the tie DNA is not valid.

I hope the FBI has the orginal letter sent to Max and not a copy - DNA should be there. They need to compare the letter with letters known to be written by Weber. Supposedly the FBI checked all of this out in 1972 and 1982, but with all of the hoaxes going on I doubt they checked very well.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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My theory, PURELY speculative, is that the money find story is bogus and the Dad lead the kid to the dig spot.

377

If you believe that then you can also believe that the money was put in the river only a few months before, but may have been buried near the river - East of where the park is now that is across from the airport.

I is now 10:40 in Washington and I guess the D.B. Cooper Party is going strong. Someone have a drink for me, OK.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Jo,
Even though I don't believe Duane had anything to do with Cooper, I do suspend disbelief and think about every single one of your posts.

The stuff about Duane's typing skills: sure that's interesting. It is possible he was trying to run some kind of scam. Someone with his background might be well suited to running a Cooper imposter scam.

Note that other people did try and got caught. And there were lots of people talking big stories (Coffelt)

If you have any samples of letters that Duane actually typed, that would be interesting, sure. I'll look at them. Posts are free until Quade imposes a tax.

(edit) Examples of Duane word choice, phrasing, misspellings etc, would be very interesting.

(edit) A very interesting thing would be any Duane written letter that duplicates the missing character insertion methods and maybe the overstrike method. One wouldn't invent that for a single letter. It would be an individual's common way of doing things...It's sort of like a fingerprint a little, even though it's typing.

For instance, the rate of "new paragraph" insertion in posts/email, is a characteristic of my posts.

[Orange1 0]

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First we have the FBI acknowledging an investigative error (the flight path comment on the KOIN video)

Then we have Jo confessing:

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after all I am just a sick dislusional old woman...who is calculating and all of the other things that have been said about me...

Next you're going to tell me the US economy is actually going to make a full recovery in the future.

It is.
(but "the future" is a long time)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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This was an old MANUAL typewriter and it was sticking. 1972 - this was typed on a very old maual even in 1972.

No Jo, that doesn't follow. Inexperienced typists who do not use proper touchtyping could get even a brand new manual typewriter to stick.
(I talk from experience here...)
No doubt you will ignore that though because it doesn't fit with your evidence which requires a good typist. Your evidence on Duane is interesting though; in those days, wasn't it pretty unusual for a guy to do typing? Even in my schooldays, typing classes at school were never, ever chosen by the boys.

well done to Mark remembering half space features..i'd forgotten. i do remember white-out paper (the original tipp-ex as i recall), as well as the ribbon that let you type either black or red.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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Your on target with your comments. The hole was punched out of a modern bill for comparison under the SEM. The sands are for experiments and comparisons. We are still trying to figure out what is different about old and new bills and if it matters etc.

So Tom, wary of the CSI effect here but is the real world actually like CSI where you can narrow down to a very small area depending on the composition of the soil?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[TomKaye 1]

Orange,

That's a yes and no question. CSI is usually full of crap when they look at some particle under the scope and declare "this is a green paint fragment from a 57 Chevy" or some such nonsense.

To answer your question, if there are obvious differences in the "dirt" you can tell by composition. For sand specifically what you can do is separate out the heavy minerals, which are rarer, and look at the proportions of each mineral to the others. They actually have maps for the whole country on what the proportions are. You can't tell if the sand came from a mile up the river, but you could tell if it came from a hundred miles away.

So yes on the sand analysis, no on the very small area unless you were lucky.

TK

[Orange1 0]

Thanks Tom.

now, was just watching the " FBI Files" on McCoy. I don't buy that he was Cooper from what I have seen, but they mentioned that the tie & tie pin were identified by relatives of McCoy's as belonging to him? (If this has been mentioned somewhere here I apologise, but it was new to me.) Ckret, is this so?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I was reviewing some more scans from the Gunther book that Sluggo forwarded to me.

It's interesting that the Clara letters refer to Cooper as
"Dan" with the quotations. But the two much earlier letters supposedly from Cooper himself, are signed D.B. Cooper

Clara also used "Dan Cooper"

My take on it, is that the Gunther letters from Clara had nothing to do with the Gunther letters from Cooper. (edit) There were many phone calls with "Clara"? It's possible Gunther asked on the first: "Is this Clara?"...of course you would answer "Why yes of course, how did you know?".

Basically, all the Gunther stuff seems like nonsense. If the first letter was really Cooper, it seems hard to believe that the title of the 1962 magazine article would have been remembered so perfectly.

It's interesting that back when there weren't forums like this, if you were nuts you had to type letters and send them to people. How quaint! Like chess by mail.

(edit) All hail Clara. She was Jo before Jo was Jo!

[snowmman 3]

I'm still trying to get a feel for the depth of experience/relationships that exist at DZ.com.

Anyone who jumped out of a C-47 like the attached picture from 1966 at Tan Son Nhut Air Base...brag about it here!

[jonstark 8]

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I'm still trying to get a feel for the depth of experience/relationships that exist at DZ.com.

Anyone who jumped out of a C-47 like the attached picture from 1966 at Tan Son Nhut Air Base...brag about it here!

Thread creep... Get back on track mister.

Search "old school exit"

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

I'm still trying to get a feel for the depth of experience/relationships that exist at DZ.com.

Anyone who jumped out of a C-47 like the attached picture from 1966 at Tan Son Nhut Air Base...brag about it here!

Thread creep... Get back on track mister.

Search "old school exit"

sorry jon..keyboard jammed up.

So: does anyone remember how you adjust the tab stops on an 1971 era typewriter?

[skyjack71 0]

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Jo,
If you have any samples of letters that Duane actually typed, that would be interesting, sure. I'll look at them. Posts are free until Quade imposes a tax.

Examples of Duane word choice, phrasing, misspellings etc, would be very interesting.

A very interesting thing would be any Duane written letter that duplicates the missing character insertion methods and maybe the overstrike method. One wouldn't invent that for a single letter. It would be an individual's common way of doing things...It's sort of like a fingerprint a little, even though it's typing.

For instance, the rate of "new paragraph" insertion in posts/email, is a characteristic of my posts.

The letters and memo's I have are of a personal nature and related to his employement over the yrs...therefore nothing I would want to post in a forum - but will provide copies privately to interested individuals who might be able to anaylize them for this purpose.

Because all of the ones that I do have are typed with a different typewriter (I had a newer typewriter than he had) - the strike over's would not apply nor the typing print...being so old it did not want to co-operated with his typing speed. He always had mispelled words or was typing too fast. The way he did the words - I am not sure what kind of word to use - his phrasing (I gues) - is like the Cooper letter to Max.

I will go thur what I do have and see if any of them do not have personal information - about the only thing that would not be personal would be his memo's to his boss, etc. These are short and direct so not really comparable - he always had me check these and some of them I typed (don't remember which ones). Best to do the lettersl, but those would HAVE to BE on a NON DISCLOSURE (confidentiality statement) and private.

Thank you for applying an OPEN mind to this.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[mark 107]

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Quote

Quote

I'm still trying to get a feel for the depth of experience/relationships that exist at DZ.com.

Anyone who jumped out of a C-47 like the attached picture from 1966 at Tan Son Nhut Air Base...brag about it here!

Thread creep... Get back on track mister.

Search "old school exit"

sorry jon..keyboard jammed up.

So: does anyone remember how you adjust the tab stops on an 1971 era typewriter?

Put the carriage where you want the tab. Push the key marked "TAB SET."

To clear the tab, position the carriage at the tab you want to clear (possibly by tabbing there), and push the key marked "TAB CLEAR." IIRC, holding the "TAB CLEAR" key down while returning the carriage would clear all the tabs.

To set the margins, there are left and right margin stops on the carriage. When you get close to the right margin, the bell rings so you know you'll need to do a carriage return or hypenate, or push the "MAR[gin] REL[ease]" key when you can't type any more.

You can tell where the margin is set in the Gunther letter because the last letter in the longest lines is offset slightly to the left. See the "c" in "authentic" in the third line, for example, as well as the "e" in "Divorce", and the "t" in "Neediest."

Mark

[skyjack71 0]

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On a serious note Snow, Max gunther's story about the lady who doctored Cooper after he landed. Is there any credibility in it and where did it supose to take place compared to the new data of Sluggos landing area.

In my conversations with MAX we covered much of this. As I have told you before only 6 phone calls transpired between Max and "Clara". This portion is purely fictional as I was specific in wanting to know all he could tell me about "Clara". He simply told me - if it is in quotations it was something she said - he knows "Clara" spoke of Coopers injuries, but in past tense.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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Thanks Tom.

now, was just watching the " FBI Files" on McCoy. I don't buy that he was Cooper from what I have seen, but they mentioned that the tie & tie pin were identified by relatives of McCoy's as belonging to him? (If this has been mentioned somewhere here I apologise, but it was new to me.) Ckret, is this so?

Ms McCoy sued on this issue and won hands down out of Court. This was one of her specific beefs.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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. If the first letter was really Cooper, it seems hard to believe that the title of the 1962 magazine article would have been remembered so perfectly.
!

Do YOU know what other articles were in that ISSUE? When you posted that cover I didn't remember the cover, but something else got my attention. I don't know why and if I tell you I just set myself up the "game" you play with me. "Flash backs" - whatever!.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

. If the first letter was really Cooper, it seems hard to believe that the title of the 1962 magazine article would have been remembered so perfectly.
!

Do YOU know what other articles were in that ISSUE? When you posted that cover I didn't remember the cover, but something else got my attention. I don't know why and if I tell you I just set myself up the "game" you play with me. "Flash backs" - whatever!.

Make sure you have the latest version of Flash installed.

NEO: Can you fly that thing?

TRINITY: Not yet.

TANK: Operator.

TRINITY: Tank, I need a pilot program for a military M-109 helicopter.

........

Featured in THIS issue:
Issue Date: JANUARY 1962; VOL. 43, NO. 296
This description copyright MOREMAGAZINES. Any unauthorized use is strictly prohibited. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
BONUS BOOK CONDENSATION: The Murderers: The Story of the Narcotic Gangs . . . Harry J. Anslinger & Will Oursler. Now, for the first time, Americas top narcotics cop gives a full report from his own files on the vicious underworld network that controls the traffic in dope.

TRUE ADVENTURE:
Bullets for His Buddies . . . Kenn C. Rust. Full page color illustration by Robert McCall.
One-Man Adventure in a Homemade Sub . . . Herb Shannon. Ed Armstrong and his sub. (Color photos).
Russia's Bloodiest Blunder . . . Henry Jordan & Richard Hanser. Full page color illustration by Fred W. Otnes.

IN THE NEWS:
Do-It-Yourself Divorce for Fed-Up Males . . . Max Gunther.
The Cruelest Game Since Rome . . . Don Kingery. Dog Fighting. (Color photos).
Jackpot Jackets . . . Joe Wolfe.
More Ideas for Christmas Giving.

TRUE'S WHO: Edward Bennett Williams: Defender of Wrongos' Rights .... Bill Davidson.

HUNTING:
Regal Sport in a Royal Forest . . . Daniel P. Mannix. Hunting with H. R. H. Bernhard, Prince of the Netherlands. (Color photos)
He Sells Sly Smells . . . Dale Shaw. Okay Butcher.

SPORTS: Green Bay's Golden Ham . . . Jimmy Breslin. Paul Hornung.
PICTORIAL: Peace Pipe Medals for Good Indians . . . Sid Latham.
ESCAPE TO RICHES: A Head for Skis . . . Arthur Herzog. Howard Head.
FACT CRIME: The Million Dollar Con . . . Alan Hynd. John Keely's claim. Full page color illustration by Bob Abbet.

SHORT FEATURES:
TRUEly Yours.
Man to Man Answers.
It's a Man's World.
TRUE Goes Shopping.
TRUE's Travel Service.
This Funny Life.

[Ckret 0]

Orange,

The tie is a "skinny" black tie with no markings that could ID it to any one individual. I am sure millions, as in the many plural form, had one just like it in 1971. And the tie clip is a clasp, not the “stick pin” type. There are no markings on any of it that some one could look at the two items and say, “Those belong to..........”

Hope that helps

[skyjack71 0]

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Orange,

The tie is a "skinny" black tie with no markings that could ID it to any one individual. I am sure millions, as in the many plural form, had one just like it in 1971. And the tie clip is a clasp, not the “stick pin” type. There are no markings on any of it that some one could look at the two items and say, “Those belong to..........”

Hope that helps

Quote

WHY have you never made a good photo of the back of that clasp?

NO MARKINGS AT ALL on a clasp! or are you referring to the tie only?

If there are NO markings on the clasp - then what is the metal content...few items have NO markings at all.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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