DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 716]

45 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

Would there be DNA in somebody's shoe?

 

-------

 

I wouldn't take those articles to imply that Cossey made, or actually manufactured the chutes. In the one article, it sounds like he made a repair on a pilot chute that he would recognize. In the other article, I would take that as perhaps he assembled the rigs. Generally, the harness/container is one part, and the canopy is another part. They are kind of 'mix & match', that is, you could put whatever canopy into whatever container, as long as the pack volume of the canopy is compatible with the size of the container.

Cossey has claimed it was his chute and he modified the rip cord making it more difficult to open... for anyone that didn't know.

 

Point is,,, many contradictions beyond the chute numbers..

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 716]

It was described as no "particular" accent....

Not no accent at all, or no discernible accent.

and no particular accent alone does not indicate Midwest.

 

So, Cooper's language or knowledge must be the reason the FBI said possibly Midwest.

Beyond "Minneapolis,, was vey nice country" we don't have all of Cooper's interactions..

The Minneapolis comment isn't enough on its own to claim he was from the Midwest, there must be more that the FBI hasn't released.

[FLYJACK 716]

A midwestern accent is a term for the linguistic definition "General American Accent"...

A slight misnomer since a general American accent is the average. It is not specific but excludes unique accents. It is average American.. It doesn't define midwest regionally.

General American can vary and is not a specific accent or dialect but is the standard way of speaking without specific and unique regional influences. 

 

For Cooper, they are saying that he has no particular, discernible or specific regional accent.

[FLYJACK 716]

Hilarious...

Cooper researcher Ulis is running for Congress..

His Cooper research has always been rife with poor logic, factual inaccuracies and crazy self serving theories..  perfect foundation for a grifter or a politician.

 

He managed to get an entire show produced based on his made up Cooper theory, that takes some audacity...

 

Here, he continues with the same pattern of juvenile and irrational nonsense to launch a run for Congress.

(Don't want to get into the politics or specifics here)

Politics is all about perceptions, not reality.. the natural draw for Ulis.

 

 

 

[FLYJACK 716]

New FBI Cooper file #55 ,,

 

https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper%20/d.b.-cooper-part-55-of-55/view

Edited February 7, 2021 by FLYJACK

[Andrade1812 51]

Fly,

Did your search of FBI #55 show anything of interest?

[FLYJACK 716]

1 hour ago, Andrade1812 said:

Fly,

Did your search of FBI #55 show anything of interest?

The Elsinore witness mentioned the "suspect" was there mid-late August not July and he remembers Raleigh coupons.  I find this a stretch.... perhaps made up or an embellishment. He remembered the "suspect" had  cigarette coupons...  weird.

The fact that Cooper had Raleigh cigarettes was widely publicized at the time.

Stories that become more detailed over time are often a sign of deception..

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 716]

Hours after Hahneman's hijacking he was seen with a military "knapsack"... witness

Edited February 8, 2021 by FLYJACK

[Andrade1812 51]

This looks like a summary of a second interview, 12-6-71, so it's within a couple of weeks of the hijacking. I'd be more skeptical if this detail came out a year or two later. Instead, it looks like the second debrief.

[FLYJACK 716]

3 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

This looks like a summary of a second interview, 12-6-71, so it's within a couple of weeks of the hijacking. I'd be more skeptical if this detail came out a year or two later. Instead, it looks like the second debrief.

I think it is BS..  he notices the "suspect" has Raleigh cig coupons, not cigs and recalls that he wants to use them to get a PC,, Para Commander which isn't in the coupon redemption book.

Now, it may be an embellishment and the rest of his story has some legitimacy.. but that part sounds sketchy.

Edited February 8, 2021 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 340]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I think it is BS..  he notices the "suspect" has Raleigh cig coupons, not cigs and recalls that he wants to use them to get a PC,, Para Commander which isn't in the coupon redemption book.

Now, it may be an embellishment and the rest of his story has some legitimacy.. but that part sounds sketchy.

I dunno... You could be right, but I can see a scenario where the guy pulls out a pack of cigarettes to have a smoke, makes an offhand joke about the coupons, and the Elsinore guy thinks nothing of it, figures it's an inconsequential part of the conversation, until he learns that Cooper smoked Raleighs and thinks 'oh, yeah'...

[Andrade1812 51]

I have a small coupon redemption book from that era and no parachutes, which would be an odd redemption product. Was there a larger catalog or product list?

[FLYJACK 716]

Clearly, it is my opinion, we can't prove the Elsinore claims are true or false. IMO, the coupon stuff sounds like an embellishment.

Here is the Raleigh coupon book for 1968, there were slight changes each year. I have seen other years.

Start at beginning and use next to go through...

https://www.grayflannelsuit.net/ephemera/raleigh_catalog/cigarette-catalog-index.html

 

Hahneman made a rare stop at his home and gave his son fishing gear for Christmas 71, fishing gear is in the Raleigh coupon book and delivery is 2-4 weeks.. no way to determine if the fishing gear was from the coupon book.

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 340]

2 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

I have a small coupon redemption book from that era and no parachutes, which would be an odd redemption product. Was there a larger catalog or product list?

 

54 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Here is the Raleigh coupon book...

Seriously?

I can NOT imagine a mainstream company having parachutes in any kind of coupon book. Skydiving is nowhere near a big enough market to even put a blip on their radar. However, I CAN imagine someone on a drop zone making a JOKE about saving enough coupons for a rig. Skydivers will joke about anything.

4 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I can see a scenario where the guy... ...makes an offhand joke about the coupons

 

[Andrade1812 51]

41 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

 

Seriously?

I can NOT imagine a mainstream company having parachutes in any kind of coupon book. Skydiving is nowhere near a big enough market to even put a blip on their radar. However, I CAN imagine someone on a drop zone making a JOKE about saving enough coupons for a rig. Skydivers will joke about anything.

 

That sounds way more plausible.

[FLYJACK 716]

The guy at Elsinore was the smoker of Raleighs, he didn't see the suspect smoking Raleigh's, he claims he only saw the coupons in the "suspect's" possession. He assumed the "suspect" smoked Raleigh's because he saw coupons only.

He recalled this after studying the Gov report on Cooper's description, four months after the actual incident.

BS

 

[FLYJACK 716]

DUDEMAN,,

Cossey claimed he modified the ripcord on the rig Cooper took.. not the one returned to Hayden. The ripcord for the Hayden chute we see is not modified.

It doesn't really make sense.. If both rigs were actually Hayden's why would Cossey modify one. Remember, Cossey also claimed it was his chute.

 

He said somewhere that the ripcord was a pull out and up or something like that, a double pull. I don't have that handy, might be in a video.

 

Also..

https://themountainnewswa.net/2013/05/04/update-on-the-murder-of-earl-cossey-an-analysis-of-his-role-in-the-db-cooper-case/

"Along those lines, Cossey has never explained why he modified a pilot’s emergency rig to make it more difficult to use.  Cossey had told me and many others that he had re-located the rip cord on the chute and had tucked the handle into a pouch under the right arm-pit, thus making the chute a “double-pull.”  This meant that Cooper would need two tugs on the rip cord to successfully deploy the rig – one out of the pouch and a second up and away to free the canopy."

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 340]

22 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

DUDEMAN,,

Cossey claimed he modified the ripcord on the rig Cooper took.. not the one returned to Hayden. The ripcord for the Hayden chute we see is not modified.

It doesn't really make sense.. If both rigs were actually Hayden's why would Cossey modify one. Remember, Cossey also claimed it was his chute.

 

He said somewhere that the ripcord was a pull out and up or something like that, a double pull. I don't have that handy, might be in a video.

 

Also..

https://themountainnewswa.net/2013/05/04/update-on-the-murder-of-earl-cossey-an-analysis-of-his-role-in-the-db-cooper-case/

"Along those lines, Cossey has never explained why he modified a pilot’s emergency rig to make it more difficult to use.  Cossey had told me and many others that he had re-located the rip cord on the chute and had tucked the handle into a pouch under the right arm-pit, thus making the chute a “double-pull.”  This meant that Cooper would need two tugs on the rip cord to successfully deploy the rig – one out of the pouch and a second up and away to free the canopy."

 

Part of my original error was seeing the location of Hayden's ripcord and thinking that it had been modified. If Cossey's statements about a modified ripcord pertained to his own rig, then so be it.

In general theory, it would be possible, and not all that unusual, for a customer to ask his rigger for such a modification. Body type combined with the confines of his particular cockpit, and personal preference, might warrant a ripcord mod. Such a mod would have to be performed by a rigger to be legal.

It sounds like Cossey made a lot of questionable, conflicting statements. It sounds like he didn't take a lot of people too seriously, and perhaps made off statements to jerk peoples' chains. It seems clear that the FBI got two back rigs from Hayden. It seems less clear, but possible, whether they got any from Cossey, and if so, which ones were actually given to Cooper.

A modified ripcord location making for a difficult pull doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Most harnesses are of pretty similar construction. Ripcord handles are generally on the main lift web, that's the part of the harness that goes over your shoulder, down past your ribs, and into the hip juncture. Not really an alternative option for that, just higher or lower. They are all in a pocket, that's what holds them in place. Those pockets were elastic, at some point they became velcro-closed. Most ripcord housings go over the shoulder, and the ripcord is best pulled in a downward fashion. Not many, but some housings come from lower on the side, from about the bottom of your ribs, and the ripcord would be better pulled in an upwards direction. An experienced jumper would note the difference. Someone with no experience wouldn't KNOW the difference. In either case, the user would just note how it is and pull accordingly.

Edited February 10, 2021 by dudeman17

[FLYJACK 716]

42 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

Part of my original error was seeing the location of Hayden's ripcord and thinking that it had been modified. If Cossey's statements about a modified ripcord pertained to his own rig, then so be it.

In general theory, it would be possible, and not all that unusual, for a customer to ask his rigger for such a modification. Body type combined with the confines of his particular cockpit, and personal preference, might warrant a ripcord mod. Such a mod would have to be performed by a rigger to be legal.

It sounds like Cossey made a lot of questionable, conflicting statements. It sounds like he didn't take a lot of people too seriously, and perhaps made off statements to jerk peoples' chains. It seems clear that the FBI got two back rigs from Hayden. It seems less clear, but possible, whether they got any from Cossey, and if so, which ones were actually given to Cooper.

A modified ripcord location making for a difficult pull doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Most harnesses are of pretty similar construction. Ripcord handles are generally on the main lift web, that's the part of the harness that goes over your shoulder, down past your ribs, and into the hip juncture. Not really an alternative option for that, just higher or lower. They are all in a pocket, that's what holds them in place. Those pockets were elastic, at some point they became velcro-closed. Most ripcord housings go over the shoulder, and the ripcord is best pulled in a downward fashion. Not many, but some housings come from lower on the side, from about the bottom of your ribs, and the ripcord would be better pulled in an upwards direction. An experienced jumper would note the difference. Someone with no experience wouldn't KNOW the difference. In either case, the user would just note how it is and pull accordingly.

More context,,,

Hayden claimed both his chutes packed by Cossey May 21/71 were "identical".

The FBI describes them as very different and cites Hayden as the source,,, Hayden claimed he never talked to the FBI and didn't agree with the descriptions. Hayden has no knowledge of the chutes after they were sent by cab.

Cossey and Hayden both claim they didn't know each other. Hayden probably just ordered two back emergency rigs.

So, Cossey on Nov 26 is recalling two chutes he made for "somebody unknown" 6 months earlier.

Cossey is using recall. He was informed of the chute left behind and assumed he knew the rig Cooper took. He assumed that chute's identity by elimination.

One possibility is Cossey recalling the wrong rig... or Cossey did supply his own rig for the hijacking.

It doesn't make sense that Cossey would sell two emergency chutes with one having a modified ripcord.

 

If Cossey has the wrong chute in his mind then all the chutes he rejected are back in play. It doesn't help that Cossey was a joker and embellisher. 

That is why it is important to figure out which chute Cooper actually used.

The chute left on the plane was unopened and we have those conflicting serial numbers/dates...

[dudeman17 340]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

and we have those conflicting serial numbers

You listed those two sets of numbers as indicating two different rigs. Did you see the conversation 'over there' not long ago, and can you log in to see posted documents? Shutter posted a document describing the rig left on the plane. It listed the '226' set of numbers as that rig, and listed the "60-XXXX' numbers as pertaining to that 'other canopy' in the same rig, the 'integral part' of it, that I surmise must be the pilot chute. If that document is correct, then it would appear that the rig Hayden got back might well be the one left on the plane. It will be interesting if/when the museum lets a rigger open that rig, and see if those numbers are indeed the pilot chute.

[FLYJACK 716]

2 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

You listed those two sets of numbers as indicating two different rigs. Did you see the conversation 'over there' not long ago, and can you log in to see posted documents? Shutter posted a document describing the rig left on the plane. It listed the '226' set of numbers as that rig, and listed the "60-XXXX' numbers as pertaining to that 'other canopy' in the same rig, the 'integral part' of it, that I surmise must be the pilot chute. If that document is correct, then it would appear that the rig Hayden got back might well be the one left on the plane. It will be interesting if/when the museum lets a rigger open that rig, and see if those numbers are indeed the pilot chute.

Yes, I know that document, it isn't clear.

It is still possible, but other documents say the numbers/date were from the packing card. That could be an error.

The other problem is the chute was found unopened intact. They were given to the FBI sealed.

They would have had to break the seal, open it and record the number from the pilot chute. Would they even do that?

Hayden got the chute back in 1975 and it wasn't repacked until 1982,, if they opened it, broke the seal to look at the pilot chute wouldn't it have been repacked earlier.

 

The chute numbers are only one mystery, there are still conflicts that don't add up. 

 

If Cooper did take Hayden's other chute why did Cossey and the FBI describe it so differently from Hayden? Wouldn't they be looking for the wrong chute.

There may be several errors at play here..

 

[DFS346 7]

On 8/30/2008 at 2:55 AM, Ckret said:

I found the film of the test drop, but we don't have anyway to play it. I have asked our in-house lab to try and locate an old projector. Once I find one I'll video tape it and put it up on google video.

This post is over 12 years old but ... does anyone know whether Ckret ever uploaded the film?

[dudeman17 340]

17 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, I know that document, it isn't clear.

It is still possible, but other documents say the numbers/date were from the packing card. That could be an error.

The other problem is the chute was found unopened intact. They were given to the FBI sealed.

They would have had to break the seal, open it and record the number from the pilot chute. Would they even do that?

Hayden got the chute back in 1975 and it wasn't repacked until 1982,, if they opened it, broke the seal to look at the pilot chute wouldn't it have been repacked earlier.

 

The chute numbers are only one mystery, there are still conflicts that don't add up. 

 

There may be several errors at play here..

There are indeed a lot of conflicts...

--

If the rig on the plane was the one that Hayden got back, the pictures of the card show that the pilot chute (?) numbers are not on it. So the only way they would know those numbers is if they looked at it, which would require them to open the rig. Why would they do that? I dunno, but I can see the FBI tearing into anything they got their hands on. The seal is nothing more than a piece of thread wrapped around one of the ripcord pins and the closing loop (or cone) with a little lead dealybob showing the rigger's ID. It gets easily broken if the ripcord is pulled. Otherwise it's just there to show that the container has not been opened since the rigger closed it.

 

16 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

When I questioned Hayden about his chutes

Robert, a very specific question, if you know the answer...  Was the container open when Hayden got it back?

 

16 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I did learn something today. I asked Tom Kaye why the ripcord on the pink parachute, (reserve that Cooper deployed for the paracord) was separated from the backpack and just lying loose in the pictures at Citizen Sleuths. He did not know, and neither did I. I tried to find out.

Turns out I did not know that you toss away the ripcord handle after you deploy. (?) I always thought they had a stop or something. Then I did some research on ripcord stops and found out some people tried using them in the 60's and some people got their teeth knocked out by them when they flapped around after deployment. 

And then the USPA banned them anyway. So I guess any rigger has to replace the handle and cable on a repack. (?)

Yes, when you pull a ripcord it is separate from the rig. Back when mains were ripcord operated, you would keep it (stuff it down your jumpsuit), unless you had a malfunction, then you would toss it to free your hands to perform emergency procedures. These days mains use hand deployed pilot chutes, so there is nothing to hang on to. But reserve ripcords (and these days cutaway handles)... Students are taught to toss them so their hands are free to deal with the reserve opening and get control of it. Experienced jumpers will usually keep them. As for ripcord stops... Having the ripcord smack you in the face would be the least of your concerns. Anything trailing you during a (reserve) deployment can have a nasty habit of snagging your (deploying) canopy. They did cause fatalities, which is why they were banned.

 

17 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

When I questioned Hayden about his chutes, I could tell he didn't know much about parachutes in general, and only wore one when flying because the FAA told him he HAD to wear one for his type of flying. He never liked them, didn't trust them, and couldn't envision too many scenarios where he would actually jump from his own plane.

I have a comical image in my mind of a pilot, with a rig on, strapped to nothing but a seat, in freefall, screaming "I CAN LAND THIS!!!"

[FLYJACK 716]

2 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

There are indeed a lot of conflicts...

--

If the rig on the plane was the one that Hayden got back, the pictures of the card show that the pilot chute (?) numbers are not on it. So the only way they would know those numbers is if they looked at it, which would require them to open the rig. Why would they do that? I dunno, but I can see the FBI tearing into anything they got their hands on. The seal is nothing more than a piece of thread wrapped around one of the ripcord pins and the closing loop (or cone) with a little lead dealybob showing the rigger's ID. It gets easily broken if the ripcord is pulled. Otherwise it's just there to show that the container has not been opened since the rigger closed it.

If they broke the seal and opened it up,, would it need to be repacked by an authorized rigger?

Hayden got it back in 1975, repacked in 1982,,, Cossey packed it in 1971 applied his seal.

What were the packing regs??

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 716]

Cossey described the descent rate for both chutes the same... 17 to 18 ft per second.