DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

One thing I've been fascinated by is the online replays of canopy flights/jumps that have been traced by GPS from real jumps..it seems like french are doing it a lot? online you can replay the jumpers canopy flight on a map. Very cool. Have people seen that? I'm curious if many US jumpers do the GPS thing. Seems fun. (don't know if it's expensive)

I also just found this jumper's (DZ.com poster) online logbook. Very cool stats and bar graphs (when you click around)

http://iharrop.jumplog.net/
http://www.paralog.net/index.html

When one [me] has no knowledge, every little bit is a gem!

(edit) Be cool if we had the data from an instrumented jet jump, like this jump data profile:
http://iharrop.jumplog.net/ParalogJumpProfile_658.png

Maybe there is one out there? Maybe the technology isn't widespread enough yet?

(edit) example of track play:
go here and click on a red triangle, then click on the big red triangle on the next page
Man! I love the little instruments on the bottom!
http://www.trackingderby.com/en/results_canopy_id_1.php

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

40 year old reminisces are no more useful than I believe talking to Cossey in '71.

A few years ago, I had some beer-light-on conversations around the bonfire with Wash/Calif jumpers of that day:

- The community, at the time, was small enough
that if a jumper went suddenly missing it was noticed.
30 regular jumpers at a dz and "Joe" doesn't show up again?

- The FBI interviewed many people and, in some cases,
asked them to re-create the jump using similar gear and
conditions. All the investigation of possible leads was done then.

- Some of the people of that era were not interested in
attracting the attention of the FBI for personal reasons
and stayed away from any discussions.

- Some of the people had personal theories about the identity
of DBC. They weren't interested in pointing a finger at
someone that they knew, just to help the airline.

I didn't ask anyone who they thought DBC was.

Even at the most minimal use of resources, this pursuit is a waste. The FBI needs to let it go.

"Duane's sister told me that he had an interest in astronomy..."

Reply> My cows have an interest in astronomy..
keeps their udders emptied.

So using the astronomy metaphor, its a question
of detection. No detection or wrong detection or
nobody detecting at all (but everyone talking) and
Cooper vanishes. What does that tell you? The same
applies here - a microcosm of the Cooper event itself.
Jo hijacks the forum and everyone scrambles forever -
many just turn their heads or go away.

Dont worry about people's girations. Its the current
solar cycle and an excess of solid protons (cosmic
rays) coming from the direction of Orion right now.
Things will settle down - there is always order in chaos
or there would be no life on this ball at all.

PDX has a perfectly good read and nobody bothers to
look - too busy!

There you go Geoff Gray, writer. Eat your heart out!
Another freebie.

G.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

The same
applies here - a microcosm of the Cooper event itself.
Jo hijacks the forum and everyone scrambles forever

NOT me! Snowmman did it.
NOT me! Now what are you going to talk about - a lamb is born in a storm - take him into the house and put him in a box near the stove. Put a nipple on a bottle of milk and feed him warm milk. Before you know it the lamb will follow you where-ever you go.

Georger - this is what you have been looking for - within this lies a clue:

John C. Weber
Born: November 24, 1864
Died: Jan 11, 1940

Alice E. Kenyon
Born: Oct 20, 1868
Died: Oct 5, 1945

I have a picture of the grave marker - Why would a man carry only a picture of the grave marker with him and not one of the grandparents themselves?

Note the yr of 1945 - WHERE was Duane? Where was Duane when both of his parents died?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[low_pull1 2]

.....................
See excerpt below from my jump memoirs proving that surplus gear was jumped well into the mid 70s,

....................
Made my first jumps in the early 80s under surplus student gear...... then transitioned to more modern "square" canopies as a student . Never jumped para commanders here. Many people before 83 had used para commanders ...going from surplus to PCs.

just what i remember from my experience.

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

(edit) Be cool if we had the data from an instrumented jet jump, like this jump data profile:
http://iharrop.jumplog.net/ParalogJumpProfile_658.png

Maybe there is one out there? Maybe the technology isn't widespread enough yet?

Why don't you PM Ian and ask? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?username=IanHarrop;

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[snowmman 3]

According to Ckret, in 1971:

Tina asked him at one point why did he hijack the flight and Cooper replied, "I don't have a grudge against the airline, I just have a grudge."

If Cooper lived, in 2008, what would he say if you met him:

a) "I just have a grudge"
b) "Isn't life great? let's go jumping"
c) "Where can a guy my age get a little bit of it?"
d) "I really like helping out down at the food drive"
e) "The wife and I really like gardening"
f) "Would you like to buy some insurance?"

[georger 247]

Quote

According to Ckret, in 1971:

Tina asked him at one point why did he hijack the flight and Cooper replied, "I don't have a grudge against the airline, I just have a grudge."

Reply> How would Gunther have known that by
1985 to link it to his fake letter? (Ts. Weber wasnt even in this yet. The PI transcript hadnt surfaced.)
Were Tina's remarks published somewhere?

G.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

According to Ckret, in 1971:

Tina asked him at one point why did he hijack the flight and Cooper replied, "I don't have a grudge against the airline, I just have a grudge."

Reply> How would Gunther have known that by
1985 to link it to his fake letter? (Ts. Weber wasnt even in this yet. The PI transcript hadnt surfaced.)
Were Tina's remarks published somewhere?

G.

That's a good question. When I was searching for grudge info in the thread, I noticed Orange1 had pointed out that the pilots' bulletin had said Cooper had a serious grudge against airlines...which Ckret corrected. So for some reason bad info about grudge was circulated at some point in time. I think the pilot's bulletin is in the info at the FBI site. I'm not going to look right now. Be good to see what it said, when.

(edit) following up Jan 12, 2008 Orange1 reported this, which Ckret corrected per above:
'btw Ckret - as per some of the clippings, in the Pilot Bulletin they mention Cooper was reported to have "a bitter hatred" for airlines and may have worked for one; in AirLine Pilot it says "he expressed a bitter hatred for the airlines"'

• Quote

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I think the pilot's bulletin is in the info at the FBI site. I'm not going to look right now. Be good to see what it said, when.

Yes it is, under the FOIA files on Cooper.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

Quote

According to Ckret, in 1971:

Tina asked him at one point why did he hijack the flight and Cooper replied, "I don't have a grudge against the airline, I just have a grudge."

Reply> How would Gunther have known that by
1985 to link it to his fake letter? (Ts. Weber wasnt even in this yet. The PI transcript hadnt surfaced.)
Were Tina's remarks published somewhere?

G.

That's a good question. When I was searching for grudge info in the thread, I noticed Orange1 had pointed out that the pilots' bulletin had said Cooper had a serious grudge against airlines...which Ckret corrected. So for some reason bad info about grudge was circulated at some point in time. I think the pilot's bulletin is in the info at the FBI site. I'm not going to look right now. Be good to see what it said, when.

(edit) following up Jan 12, 2008 Orange1 reported this, which Ckret corrected per above:
'btw Ckret - as per some of the clippings, in the Pilot Bulletin they mention Cooper was reported to have "a bitter hatred" for airlines and may have worked for one; in AirLine Pilot it says "he expressed a bitter hatred for the airlines"'

Reply> Any date (even ballpark) on this?

My thought was some newspaper publication. Something found in a good urban or university library. There was no internet then...

G.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Quote

(edit) following up Jan 12, 2008 Orange1 reported this, which Ckret corrected per above:
'btw Ckret - as per some of the clippings, in the Pilot Bulletin they mention Cooper was reported to have "a bitter hatred" for airlines and may have worked for one; in AirLine Pilot it says "he expressed a bitter hatred for the airlines"'

Reply> Any date (even ballpark) on this?

My thought was some newspaper publication. Something found in a good urban or university library. There was no internet then...

G.

[snowmman 3]

Here's a fun fact maybe that will stir up some memories.

In 1968, the U.S. National Parachute Championships were at Marana Air Park. (in AZ)

Remember Marana? The CIA front companies were there: Intermountain Aviation, Air America, Continental Air Services. It was the hq for all CIA air operations during the Vietnam war, supposedly? Fulton skyhook developed there.

All the stuff there became Marana Air Park in 1961 which was sold in 1966 to Intermountain Aviation, a front for the CIA.

I had a good laugh reading this. Jumpers back then probably liked to think they were counterculture, yet they were jumping at a CIA site? funny.

"How can you be sticking it to the man, when the man is sticking it to you!"

I mentioned the case where the Fulton Skyhook was used for the operation down in Antartica to try and retrieve Soviet documents. Two people were extracted using the skyhook. The B-17G apparently was based at Marana? (N809Z)

(edit) supposedly N809Z flew some black ops over Vietnam but don't have details.

(edit) details of the skyhook operation:
28 May 1962 In Operation Coldfeet, Maj. James Smith, USAF and Lt. Leonard A. LeSchack, USNR parachuted from CIA B-17G N809Z (44-83785 c/n 32426) into the abandoned Soviet arctic ice station NP 8. After searching the station, they were retrieved using a Fulton Skyhook system installed on the B-17, piloted by Connie Seigrist and Douglas Price, on June 1st.

(edit) A neighbor hacked into the CIA and created this link for us:
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/pdf/v38i5a11p.pdf

(edit) while walking around the CIA halls, found a nice story of a dramatic failed 1952 CIA aerial pickup in China using a C47 with winch etc.
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol50no4/two-cia-prisoners-in-china-1952201373.html

"Beijing’s capture, imprisonment, and eventual release of CIA officers John T. Downey and Richard G. Fecteau is an amazing story that too few know about today."

[snowmman 3]

I finally bought a copy of "Ha-Ha-Ha" by D.B. Cooper.
Published in 1983.

I'm only on page 6, but things jump out at me as new possibilities for thinking about Cooper.

The book is apparent fiction. Cooper is in the bathroom looking at himself in the mirror:

"Due to recent rigid dieting, he was at least twenty pounds lighter than the usual me, obvious even beneath the cheap black suit and dark blue, full-length topcoat"

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

(edit) following up Jan 12, 2008 Orange1 reported this, which Ckret corrected per above:
'btw Ckret - as per some of the clippings, in the Pilot Bulletin they mention Cooper was reported to have "a bitter hatred" for airlines and may have worked for one; in AirLine Pilot it says "he expressed a bitter hatred for the airlines"'

Reply> Any date (even ballpark) on this?

My thought was some newspaper publication. Something found in a good urban or university library. There was no internet then...

G.

well I don't really think it's worth looking. My reading of say like those True magazine articles and such, was that Gunter could have been tapping into a general feeling among males....as could some of the supposed Cooper letters.... Divorce was rising, more people starting to question "why the heck am I doing this" etc.

I thought Max just tapped into the general doubts of "Death of a Salesman" middle aged males? I don't think Max needed any reference about what Cooper said? He just needed to understand what his readers would identify with.

Heck, even that bulletin probably reflected biases of the people investigating the case, rather than just what Cooper said.

(edit) My guess is that back in the '70s, the identification with Cooper had more to do with escaping from a humdrum life. Not so much the "stick it to the man" idea. But I dunno...I'm just musing about the various "Cooper" letters.

[georger 247]

Quote

Here's a fun fact maybe that will stir up some memories.

In 1968, the U.S. National Parachute Championships were at Marana Air Park. (in AZ)

Remember Marana? The CIA front companies were there: Intermountain Aviation, Air America, Continental Air Services. It was the hq for all CIA air operations during the Vietnam war, supposedly? Fulton skyhook developed there.

All the stuff there became Marana Air Park in 1961 which was sold in 1966 to Intermountain Aviation, a front for the CIA.

I had a good laugh reading this. Jumpers back then probably liked to think they were counterculture, yet they were jumping at a CIA site? funny.

"How can you be sticking it to the man, when the man is sticking it to you!"

I mentioned the case where the Fulton Skyhook was used for the operation down in Antartica to try and retrieve Soviet documents. Two people were extracted using the skyhook. The B-17G apparently was based at Marana? (N809Z)

(edit) supposedly N809Z flew some black ops over Vietnam but don't have details.

(edit) details of the skyhook operation:
28 May 1962 In Operation Coldfeet, Maj. James Smith, USAF and Lt. Leonard A. LeSchack, USNR parachuted from CIA B-17G N809Z (44-83785 c/n 32426) into the abandoned Soviet arctic ice station NP 8. After searching the station, they were retrieved using a Fulton Skyhook system installed on the B-17, piloted by Connie Seigrist and Douglas Price, on June 1st.

(edit) A neighbor hacked into the CIA and created this link for us:
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/pdf/v38i5a11p.pdf

(edit) while walking around the CIA halls, found a nice story of a dramatic failed 1952 CIA aerial pickup in China using a C47 with winch etc.
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol50no4/two-cia-prisoners-in-china-1952201373.html

"Beijing’s capture, imprisonment, and eventual release of CIA officers John T. Downey and Richard G. Fecteau is an amazing story that too few know about today."

Reply> An Arizona connection could explain Coop pulling 'fly to Mexico City' out of his hat.

Has there always been a very strong avionics connection between the State of Washington and
Arizona? (Maybe I'm dreaming this but it has always
seemed to me there is a strong connection for some
reason? A strong connection between Washington State, California, and Az?).

G.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,

I need help. I am preparing a database of FBI Agents (and other personnel) who have been involved (in some way) with NORJAK. Please look over this list and see if there is anything that you might have to add. There are 5 fields as described (in green) below.

Name – Agent’s Name
Position - Title given in article(s)
Office - The FBI Office they were identified with
Date/Aspect - The date they were (First – Last) mentioned
Comments - Any additional information

Ralph Himmelsbach
FBI Agent
Portland
1971 – 1980/NORJAK
Empty Field

John Detlor
FBI Agent
Seattle
1971 - 2008/NORJAK
Retired

Bob Fuhriman
FBI Agent
Seattle
1971 - 2008/NORJAK
Retired

Harold E. Campbell Jr.
Special Agent in Charge
Reno
1971/Flt. 305 Landing
Empty Field

Thomas (Tom) Manning
FBI Agent coordinating search
?????
1971/NORJAK
Find Office? Died November 1987

Charles B. Farrell
Special Agent, FBI
Unknown Office (probably Seattle)
1972/ Lewis/Murphy Fraud Case
Find Office?

J. Earl Milne
Agent In Charge, FBI
Seattle
1972-1975/NORJAK
Confirm Date?

Julius Mattson
Special Agent In Charge, FBI
Portland
1973 - 1974/Kiperts Case
Empty Field

Nicholas O'Hara
FBI Agent
Virginia Beach, VA?
1974/Richard McCoy
The agent who shot Richard McCoy.

Harold K. Clark
Special Agent in Charge
Portland?
1975/Skull (Mt. Hood)
Confirm Office?

Pete Norregard
FBI Agent
Stockton, CA?
1979/Rackstraw
Confirm Office?

Paul Hudson
FBI Agent
Portland??
1980/Ingram Find
Confirm Office?

Bill Williams
FBI Spokesman
Portland?
1980/Ingram Find
Confirm Office?

Ken Moore
FBI Agent
Seattle
1980/Ingram Find
In charge of digging on Ingram find.

Tom Nicodemus
FBI Agent
?????
1980/Ingram Find
Find Office?

William (Bill) Baker
Special Agent in Charge
Portland
1980/Ingram Find
Empty Field

Otis Cox
Empty Field
Washington, DC
1980/-Ingram Find
Probably Lab

Ray Mathis
Sr, Agent; FBI Spokesman
Seattle
1980/Ingram Find/Placard
Empty Field

Jack Pringle
Assistant Agent In Charge
Seattle
1980/NORJAK
Took over search operation for Ingram find.

Dorwin Schreuder
FBI Agent
Portland
1982 - 1985/Columbia River Search
More Info?

Jon Eyer
Special Agent in Charge
Seattle
1989/John List
Empty Field

Dick Thurston
FBI Special Agent
Seattle
1996/NORJAK
Empty Field

Ray Lauer
FBI Spokesman
Seattle
2000 - 2001/Elsie Rodger’s Skull
Empty Field

Larry Holmquist
FBI Spokesman
North Platte, NB
2000/Elsie Rodger’s Skull
Probably no connection to NORJAK.

Ralph Hope
FBI Agent
Seattle
2001/NORJAK
Empty Field

Robbie Burroughs
FBI Spokeswoman
Seattle
2007/Amboy Parachute
Empty Field

Larry Carr
FBI Special Agent
Seattle
2007/NORJAK
Empty Field

Laura Laughlin
Special Agent in Charge
Seattle
2008/Amboy Parachute
Empty Field


Thanks,

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Shit!
I can't believe you Sluggo.
I was thinking the exact same thing.
There's a book put out by retired FBI agents..there's like a Society or something...I was looking at with Google. Some of them bragged about working the Cooper case. I never copied down everyone, but it's great you have a list!

Other sources are news articles, cause over the years different agents were quoted. Was that where you got most of yours?

[mark 107]

Quote

Here's a fun fact maybe that will stir up some memories.

In 1968, the U.S. National Parachute Championships were at Marana Air Park. (in AZ)

Remember Marana? The CIA front companies were there: Intermountain Aviation, Air America, Continental Air Services. It was the hq for all CIA air operations during the Vietnam war, supposedly? Fulton skyhook developed there.

All the stuff there became Marana Air Park in 1961 which was sold in 1966 to Intermountain Aviation, a front for the CIA.

There are two airports in Marana. One is the former Avra Valley Airport, home until very recently to Marana Skydiving Center. I think AVQ is where the 1968 Nationals were held. The other airport is the Pinal Air Park, MZJ, where the aircraft boneyard provided some cover for other operations. Oddly, this website says that most of the aircraft there belonged to Northwest.

Mark

[skyjack71 0]

There are 2 others - will have to find them and one of them I had an email address. Funny, one of these guys is never mentioned except that he was the one taking phone calls on Cooper and was assigned to the case between Hope and Carr. I spoke with him a couple of time - and I know I had the email address. It became obsolete, but in all my copies there will be one or 2 there to this man.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Quote

There are two airports in Marana. One is the former Avra Valley Airport, home until very recently to Marana Skydiving Center. I think AVQ is where the 1968 Nationals were held. The other airport is the Pinal Air Park, MZJ, where the aircraft boneyard provided some cover for other operations. Oddly, this website says that most of the aircraft there belonged to Northwest.

Mark

Thanks for that, Mark. Yeah, I dunno. All I have are two mainstream news articles that say Marana Air Park. (attached). A crummy photo is one of them.
Looks like Cossey probably was 2nd in men's division?
So he was good. Don't know how far back in the '60s he went with WA area skydivers.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

There are two airports in Marana. One is the former Avra Valley Airport, home until very recently to Marana Skydiving Center. I think AVQ is where the 1968 Nationals were held. The other airport is the Pinal Air Park, MZJ, where the aircraft boneyard provided some cover for other operations. Oddly, this website says that most of the aircraft there belonged to Northwest.

Mark

Thanks for that, Mark. Yeah, I dunno. All I have are two mainstream news articles that say Marana Air Park. (attached). A crummy photo is one of them.
Looks like Cossey probably was 2nd in men's division?
So he was good. Don't know how far back in the '60s he went with WA area skydivers.

Reply> Was the comic book character Dan Cooper
a mascot for any of these jump groups?

G.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

There are two airports in Marana. One is the former Avra Valley Airport, home until very recently to Marana Skydiving Center. I think AVQ is where the 1968 Nationals were held. The other airport is the Pinal Air Park, MZJ, where the aircraft boneyard provided some cover for other operations. Oddly, this website says that most of the aircraft there belonged to Northwest.

Mark

Thanks for that, Mark. Yeah, I dunno. All I have are two mainstream news articles that say Marana Air Park. (attached). A crummy photo is one of them.
Looks like Cossey probably was 2nd in men's division?
So he was good. Don't know how far back in the '60s he went with WA area skydivers.

Reply> or any of these clubs that had a special
affiliation with Canadian sky divers. By '71 a number of Americans had fled America over the
Vietnam Conflict and were living in Canada....

many of them with a grudge.

I know nobody here was affected by any of that!

[377 22]

B 17 used in Nam???? That would be amazing. A late friend who flew cargo swore he saw a Boeing 337 Stratoliner flying in Nam in the 60s. That was the airliner version of the early B 17 bomber design. I thought he was smoking something but it turned out he was right when photos surfaced much later.

Hey, back to basics for a minute. I think Cooper had to be CERTAIN that a 727 could be jumped. How did he know in 71??? I jumped back then and was fascinated by aviation and jumping from new kinds of aircraft. Neither I or my friends knew you could jump from a 727. How did Cooper know? He bet his future on that information.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

B 17 used in Nam???? That would be amazing. A late friend who flew cargo swore he saw a Boeing 337 Stratoliner flying in Nam in the 60s. That was the airliner version of the early B 17 bomber design. I thought he was smoking something but it turned out he was right when photos surfaced much later.

377

Interesting. I can top that!

I was looking at a website from a guy with stories about when he was in Vietnam. He snapped a picture of a Boeing 307 Stratoliner. Picture attached, fom 'nam. Did you mean 307?

There were only 10 of them built? fully pressurized?
This site references use with Air Laos.
http://www.aviation-history.com/boeing/307.html

I forget where I got the photo, but it was Vietnam..the guy was surprised when he saw it. Looks like some military planes in the background.

(edit) Hey there's a Howard Hughes reference for Jo. He apparently got one of the 307's!

[georger 247]

Quote

B 17 used in Nam???? That would be amazing. A late friend who flew cargo swore he saw a Boeing 337 Stratoliner flying in Nam in the 60s. That was the airliner version of the early B 17 bomber design. I thought he was smoking something but it turned out he was right when photos surfaced much later.

Hey, back to basics for a minute. I think Cooper had to be CERTAIN that a 727 could be jumped. How did he know in 71??? I jumped back then and was fascinated by aviation and jumping from new kinds of aircraft. Neither I or my friends knew you could jump from a 727. How did Cooper know? He bet his future on that information.

377

Hole in the back of the airplane with
a door, and even a ladder!

Much more convenient and user friendly than all of that 'side door tough guy' stuff seen in movies.

He could have seen the aircraft once at an airport and made the decision.

Now for Sluggo's theory: he had a phD in avionics,
knew Max Gunther, had been a paratrooper in WWII, probably had FBI and CIA connections,
knew the real story of JFK and maybe some of
the principles, married Jo whoever, and hid the loot in some cemetary in the State of Washington ...
and maybe was in the Astronaut core or ran for
public office? (It's Teddy!)

G.