DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

Goggles

No-one knows for sure he didn't have any. They could have been in an inside pocket of his coat, they could have been in the mysterious paper bag he had (along with an alti?)

We have no way of knowing whether or not he had goggles, so it is impossible to draw any conclusions about anything from something you don't know. (Although I realise trying to draw conclusions without knowing anything is largely what is keeping this thread alive. That, and the secret hand of the Freemasons.)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 247]

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Goggles

No-one knows for sure he didn't have any. They could have been in an inside pocket of his coat, they could have been in the mysterious paper bag he had (along with an alti?)

We have no way of knowing whether or not he had goggles, so it is impossible to draw any conclusions about anything from something you don't know. (Although I realise trying to draw conclusions without knowing anything is largely what is keeping this thread alive. That, and the secret hand of the Freemasons.)

Orange, what do you think about the transition between prop vs jet jumping, especially at 160 kts?
It would seem to me except for velocity, the jet
is the cleaner faster separation? Maybe Im all wet.
Any comments appreciated -

G.

[377 22]

I made one jet jump from a DC 9 and six high speed tailgate jumps from turboprops, CASA 212 and C 130. No big difference between the jet and prop exits. It's mostly about airspeed and not airplane or engines.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

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So if someone uses a behavior that is known to a small group, do we assume he just looked at something and deduced the behavior, didn't care and was a lunatic or willing to roll the dice on it, or had access to that information, or was stupid and didn't realize there was a question to be asked?

Cooper's flaps, altitude and speed requests (if accurately reported) argue against a couple of the alternatives above. They say Cooper knows something about planes. They hint Cooper knew about dropping stuff from planes.

377

Cooper never requested a speed or degree of flap setting.

[Ckret 0]

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georger said:
Cooper's routine may have been simple because
he planned it that way or because he was capable of
nothing more, or some combination of the two.

Interesting thoughts, georger. But Cooper had limited knobs to turn. One could theorize, that he saw how prior hijackers tried to create new knobs, say with guns, weapons etc and failed. So he knew not to try that.

Sometimes the only knobs that work are very small ones, and time.

The mistake is in judging Cooper by the knobs he used. It assumes other knobs could have been more successful. All we know, is that the knobs Cooper used, worked. Therefore, Cooper was right.

We know hijackers who attempted to use/create other knobs failed. One could say we don't really know if Cooper succeeded. But unlike others, we're unsure if he failed.

Is the experimental database broad enough to deduce anything from that? No.

But that's life. So no use worrying about it.

I posted before, that Google is showing that potentially we don't need models any more. Models are always right to a degree but always wrong to a degree. Sometimes I wonder if you worry more about the model, than the result. Things like Google are creating the opportunity to say: "no models, just correlations"

No model can predict the future. If it could, people will change the future so it's not predictable.
We only use models cause we didn't have anything else.
It's getting close to the time to throw out models. They serve no purpose except to wrongly put a stamp of validation on bad thinking.

So while your thought above sounds good, it's better just to say "Who knows, doesn't matter"

Coopers choice of knobs were in large part only limited by his knowledge base and skillset. The choices he made provide some insight as to who he was. There were many options (knobs) for Cooper that night, yet he gave very little direction for what is in some ways a very complex situation.
That may say a lot even though he said very little.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Mr. Ckret, Sir,

I beg to differ with you!

On page 98 of (your) the file. At 6:21 PM, PST (my paraphrase):
305: We have instructions from the individual. He wants 1) To go to Mexico City 2) To fly with gear down and flaps at 15 degrees, after underway, all lights to be turned out in aircraft…

These request are essential to understanding what the knew, didn’t know or guessed about the 727. If I am interpreting it incorrectly, correct me, and offer an alternate interpretation…. Please sir.

Respectfully,

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Ckret 0]

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Mr. Ckret, Sir,

I beg to differ with you!

On page 98 of (your) the file. At 6:21 PM, PST (my paraphrase):
305: We have instructions from the individual. He wants 1) To go to Mexico City 2) To fly with gear down and flaps at 15 degrees, after underway, all lights to be turned out in aircraft…

These request are essential to understanding what the knew, didn’t know or guessed about the 727. If I am interpreting it incorrectly, correct me, and offer an alternate interpretation…. Please sir.

Respectfully,

Sluggo_Monster

Creepy Uncle Sluggo is back!!!!!

I am glad you brought that up, ever play that game where you whisper a statement to someone and then they pass it along and then that someone passes what they hear along............ by the time it gets through 10 people what comes out the other end is not the original message. I believe this is what is at play here with a few issues.

Cooper makes demands with no real specifics to people who operate with specifics. I wrote about this some time ago; when you fly the 727 with wheels down at 10,000 feet what are the flap options?

My guess is 15 degrees is the most optimal setting, so when the pilot radioed the demands he simply added the “15 degrees.” I am sure to the pilot “flaps down” means nothing; especially when the pilot is communicating with others who speak his professional language. If the pilot said to flight ops “flaps down” well what does that mean? So given the parameters Cooper gave the pilot overlaid his knowledge so that it meant something, “15 degrees”

The same can be said about the pilots stating “chest” chute versus “front” chute. The pilots must have at some point had some type of instruction or knowledge transfer in regard to jumping and the equipment used to do it. So again front chute did not mean anything to the pilots but chest did. So when communicating to others that speak your language you will translate the meaning so that they understand.

[Ckret 0]

"I fall on the bottom of the intellectual scale here and Night Clerk is doing well. I am having a hard time holding on to the bit and reins. If Carr doesn't do something soon I think Night Clerk
will come thru the gate without waiting for the buzzard..oops I think that is supposed to be spelled differently.


On a serious NOTE. The night clerk wants to go public, but I am the one saying NOT yet...let the FBI do what they have to do. Since Carr made his narrow minded statement about me - this indicates the FBI is NOT searching their records for the registration."

Reply:

I have already posted that I cannot find a registration with John Collins name on it. For the sake of argument let’s say that there was a registration with the name John Collins on it and the clerk says that John Collins looks like the picture of Duane Weber and he believes Duane Weber looks like Cooper. OK, now what? That would be great info to confront Weber with but that is not a possibility.

[georger 247]

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Mr. Ckret, Sir,

I beg to differ with you!

On page 98 of (your) the file. At 6:21 PM, PST (my paraphrase):
305: We have instructions from the individual. He wants 1) To go to Mexico City 2) To fly with gear down and flaps at 15 degrees, after underway, all lights to be turned out in aircraft…

These request are essential to understanding what the knew, didn’t know or guessed about the 727. If I am interpreting it incorrectly, correct me, and offer an alternate interpretation…. Please sir.

Respectfully,

Sluggo_Monster

Creepy Uncle Sluggo is back!!!!!

I am glad you brought that up, ever play that game where you whisper a statement to someone and then they pass it along and then that someone passes what they hear along............ by the time it gets through 10 people what comes out the other end is not the original message. I believe this is what is at play here with a few issues.

Cooper makes demands with no real specifics to people who operate with specifics. I wrote about this some time ago; when you fly the 727 with wheels down at 10,000 feet what are the flap options?

My guess is 15 degrees is the most optimal setting, so when the pilot radioed the demands he simply added the “15 degrees.” I am sure to the pilot “flaps down” means nothing; especially when the pilot is communicating with others who speak his professional language. If the pilot said to flight ops “flaps down” well what does that mean? So given the parameters Cooper gave the pilot overlaid his knowledge so that it meant something, “15 degrees”

The same can be said about the pilots stating “chest” chute versus “front” chute. The pilots must have at some point had some type of instruction or knowledge transfer in regard to jumping and the equipment used to do it. So again front chute did not mean anything to the pilots but chest did. So when communicating to others that speak your language you will translate the meaning so that they understand.

Reply> I don't want to complicate this.

But, my reply to Sluggo is 'one instance is not a representative sample'. We do not have multiple
instances of Cooper giving technical instructions.

Even if we assume Cooper said 'flaps to 15 degrees' one time, Cooper could have picked that kind of thing up anywhere. It doesn't add up to deep technical knowledge.

I dont think communications were so poor on that
airplane that Cooper couldnt say straight out what
he wanted and get it understood by Scott etal.

The period where technical knowledge matters
most is the period where 305 climbs from ~7000
feet to ~10000 feet and Cooper is trying to get the stairs out to bail. It is during this period where it
almost appears Scott and Rat are aware of what Cooper is intending and trying to accommodate him, because it "appears" Scott & Rat are trying to configure the plane so Cooper can bail.

There is nothing in the Transcript during this period about Cooper giving technical orders or requests.
What there is (in the Transcript) is some confusion
and mystery on Scott's part about "what is going on
in the back" ?

This is the period leading up to Cooper and Tina's
last conversations together before Tina goes to the cockpit. Presumably (I stress presumably) Tina did convey some communications for Cooper during
this period to Scott, via the PA. Whatever those exchanges were the Transcript says nothing about Cooper issuing technical instructions.

Lastly: I think the Transcript and Tina's notes reveal there were times when Scott (and other crew) were
genuinely confused and frustrated about what exactly Cooper wanted, technically. Central technical issues keep getting debated over and over between Scott
and others. Obviously Cooper was not being clear
and concise on many issues. And yet we know when Cooper and Tina were together he did use her to
communicate with Scott.

If Tina's interview says he said "15 degree flaps"
then I would be more inclinded to believe it, but
I am willing to bet Tina's interview does not say
that.

There are several flight comms where I think Scott is clearly expressing his frustration over what Cooper wants, exactly. If Cooper has technical knowledge or specific requests he sure isnt helping get these requests understood - first time out. You may interpret
this as Cooper being coy and secretive or even highly
skilled and able to deal with whatever situation given
him, but, 'it was never necessary" for Cooper to even
mention "15 degree flaps" in the first place because
it is obvious from a technical point of view that Scott
is doing everything to climb and slow down the plane
to accommodate a jump as best he can, and down flaps are guaranteed in any event, and Cooper is
going to have to suck up the rest and bail, in any event - to escape.

Th picture to me is Cooper issuing general demands
and the crew and others fill in the technical details.

The biggest mystery to me is Cooper does not even
request a route! There was NO discussion between the crew and Cooper over a specific route. Cooper seems
to assume the route will be over land. They almost
went via a ocean route! What does that portend for Cooper if he bails into the Pacific as opposed to over
land? He never even asked. I have to seriously wonder what Cooper would have done or said had they taken off for the ocean route, with all lights of civilisation
vanishing underneath him? Would he have inquired
about that through Tina?

All I am suggesting is this crucial period is not that
long (timewise). We have talked around and over this period many times here at DZ, but the period can be parsed out specifically. But if that is done Tina's testimony for the same period has to be added to
what the Transcript conveys, to get a fuller picture?

G.

[skyjack71 0]

I have already posted that I cannot find a registration with John Collins name on it. For the sake of argument let’s say that there was a registration with the name John Collins on it and the clerk says that John Collins looks like the picture of Duane Weber and he believes Duane Weber looks like Cooper. OK, now what? That would be great info to confront Weber with but that is not a possibility.

[snowmman 3]

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I will address this one simple question again - WHY did Cooper choose the Portland and Seattle area?

I'll bite.

He was familiar with the NW+CA, because of living in various states there, at various times.

Oregon was the one NW area state Cooper had never been a local in.

Seattle/Issaquah was the best place to get parachutes and money from.

Cooper was a Seattle area local for a time. Whether Cooper thought that would confuse the issue or not, doesn't matter.

He was familiar with jumping that area. It made night jumping that area feel a little less risky.

(edit) If it was a Clancy novel, I'd add "He knew it would clusterfuck the two local FBI offices against each other ...portland vs seattle." But that wouldn't be possible because he wouldn't have enough inside knowledge. It would just be a good guess.

[Ckret 0]

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I have already posted that I cannot find a registration with John Collins name on it. For the sake of argument let’s say that there was a registration with the name John Collins on it and the clerk says that John Collins looks like the picture of Duane Weber and he believes Duane Weber looks like Cooper. OK, now what? That would be great info to confront Weber with but that is not a possibility.

Excuse me - You posted that BEFORE the night clerk walked into the FBI office with a signed statement. Did you look for ANY hotel registrations and check the reports made by the agents assigned to checking those hotels?...probably NOT.

Your statement makes a mockery out of the investigative system.

If you can dismiss this so easlly then this statement could also be made: If Ckret says he has searched the files and because he says so the registration nor any reports made by the agents regarding the hotel assignments do not exist, therefore if the records nor registration does not exist then no agents where assigned to investigate the PDX area Cooper departed from.

We ALL know that they did send agents out to check the hotels and if they didn't then NO hijacking occurred.

I will address this one simple question again - WHY did Cooper choose the Portland and Seattle area? Being local is illogical - he woud be known. He knew the area - HOW?

Too many knobs - what is simple has been complicated......

[Ckret 0]

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I will address this one simple question again - WHY did Cooper choose the Portland and Seattle area?

I'll bite.

He was familiar with the NW+CA, because of living in various states there, at various times.

Oregon was the one NW area state Cooper had never been a local in.

Seattle/Issaquah was the best place to get parachutes and money from.

Cooper was a Seattle area local for a time. Whether Cooper thought that would confuse the issue or not, doesn't matter.

He was familiar with jumping that area. It made night jumping that area feel a little less risky.

(edit) If it was a Clancy novel, I'd add "He knew it would clusterfuck the two local FBI offices against each other ...portland vs seattle." But that wouldn't be possible because he wouldn't have enough inside knowledge. It would just be a good guess.

Every hijacking that took flight involved two or more FBI offices, we solved over 99% of them, tell Tom no clusters.

[Ckret 0]

Tina did not take any dictation from Cooper, Schaffner did. Schaffner listed in her statement what Cooper's demands were.

[snowmman 3]

People can chime in on what was in this book, if they know.

I had wondered what books were available back in 1971.

I first located this book as published in 1981.
But in 1971 it was published under a different title.. "Parachutes and Parachuting"

here:

Sellick, Bud "Parachutes and Parachuting"
subtitle: "A Modern Guide to the Sport"
ISBN: 9780136485353
series vol. v. 6 ??
Prentice-Hall NJ 1971. Explains all the ins and outs of competition and sport jumping -style accuracy, night jumping ,Flares, and smoke bombs. vg/vg pp 223. Numerous photographs.

searchable in Google Books at
http://books.google.com/books?id=4OZtAAAAMAAJ&pgis=1

It says something about USPA licensing requiring one night jump with a delay of at least 20 seconds. What USPA level was that? Is it still required? here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=4OZtAAAAMAAJ&q=%22night+jump%22&pgis=1#search

Offered for US$ 14.38 by: Dustjacket Books and Treasures - Book number: 209

The 1981 version

The Wild, Wonderful World of Parachutes and Parachuting
By Bud Sellick
Published by Prentice-Hall, 1981
ISBN 0139595775, 9780139595776
231 pages

[snowmman 3]

title says it all.
Nice wizardry by Google.
Provides an interesting overview of sorts for what areas in the US were "interesting" for the book, maybe for the sport? in 1971.

NW looks a little light just in terms of stickpins.
Issaquah apparently wasn't mentioned, which is odd, since it was there since '62, hosted the '63 nationals, etc.

[snowmman 3]

"Winner of the $10,000 Formentor Novel Prize", this synopsis-resistant novel chronicles the active fantasy life of San Francisco hotel clerk J. Spenser Blight, "the fattest man in American literature," who spends his long nights "reading twenty-five-cent paperback erotic epics; cutting up old magazines; and, above all, reminiscing about his impossibly beautiful and equally corrupt wife Katy."

Hey! I resemble that!
(cover attached. published 1965)

"No one has yet explained why a Nightclerk should go banging around in a dirty old airshaft ... and what the hell, it's Zoo Night at the Travelers Hotel!"
http://books.google.com/books?id=EOkNAAAAIAAJ&q=night+clerk+schneck+travelers+hotel&dq=night+clerk+schneck+travelers+hotel&pgis=1

(edit) rivals "Ulysses" the review implies!
http://www.kirkusreviews.com/kirkusreviews/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1563300

[snowmman 3]

http://books.google.com/books?id=1jDqpK2HlxYC&pg=PA97&dq=seattle+skydivers#PPA97,M1

Poynter says PCA membership in 1962 was 6000 and growing.
Parachute Club of America name dates to 1957...was predecessor to 1967 renaming to USPA, per FBI files.

(edit) This 1960 insurance book implies that jumping without a PCA license in some states was illegal, that a pilot might be held liable? was that true?

http://books.google.com/books?id=x5AyAAAAMAAJ&q=Parachute+Club+of+America&dq=Parachute+Club+of+America&pgis=1

[Orange1 0]

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Excuse me - You posted that BEFORE the night clerk walked into the FBI office with a signed statement. Did you look for ANY hotel registrations and check the reports made by the agents assigned to checking those hotels?...probably NOT.

Your statement makes a mockery out of the investigative system.

God Jo your bias is so clear. Ckret already posted before he could find no record of the registration being taken and was open enough to admit that didn't necessarily mean it hadn't, just that he could find no record of it. For someone who keeps sniping at people who ask questions that have been answered already, you do a very good job of doing the same. Then again you clearly won't be happy till the FBI starts acting as your personal PI agency and/or tells you that Duane was Cooper. I'm guessing neither will happen though. And especially fter all the time Ckret has wasted on you, his civil and polite responses put yours to shame.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Night jumps are required for C-license, and if USPA follows same rules as my association you are not allowed to do night jumps without a B-license. iow if you are looking for USPA/PCA member he would have had to have B-lic to (legally) have done night jumps before. Not sure how many jumps were required for C-license in those days (jump # requirements for licenses have increased over the years)?

Nice digging on USPA/PCA numbers. Bear in mind that membership is always wider than regular active jumpers, though by what margin I have no idea.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 247]

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Excuse me - You posted that BEFORE the night clerk walked into the FBI office with a signed statement. Did you look for ANY hotel registrations and check the reports made by the agents assigned to checking those hotels?...probably NOT.

Your statement makes a mockery out of the investigative system.

! x10E20 = some uncountable number.


God Jo your bias is so clear. Ckret already posted before he could find no record of the registration being taken and was open enough to admit that didn't necessarily mean it hadn't, just that he could find no record of it. For someone who keeps sniping at people who ask questions that have been answered already, you do a very good job of doing the same. Then again you clearly won't be happy till the FBI starts acting as your personal PI agency and/or tells you that Duane was Cooper. I'm guessing neither will happen though. And especially fter all the time Ckret has wasted on you, his civil and polite responses put yours to shame.

[skyjack71 0]

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Who said I dismissed it? Also, I look for a registration that was recovered where John Collins was listed on it, I cannot find any and further more no leads were ever developed in regard to a John Collins until you brought it up.

WHY don't you check the registration you have for the specific hotel - I am sure you have that registration in the file - what names are one it? Maybe the name was not John Collins - after all I am not the FBI and it is not my job to verify his statement. Producing the registration at least let us know you actually did look.

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To address another issue you brought up, we did investigate where and when Duane stole John Collins identity, as well as all other aspects of his life that you bring up.

I was told the FBI did not question him - that I was the only one to ever contact him.

The FBI DID not interview the sister and I understand not the brother either...nor did they interview MJ's step-daughter (who told me she knew Duane was Cooper when her Mama wasn't home) or Duane's stepson who was still living with them in 1971.

I am not even sure the former employees where interviewed. They didn't even try to find the most mportant managers and friends - like the Ed Horan who told me he knew Duane from WA. - he worked for a company called American Income and I have a picture of him taken in 1981..what was this man's history? ... he and Duane were in WA and OR and ID together...JUMPING.

The FBI interviewed the man who bought the VAN, but they didn't talk to the witness who overheard his conversation in the hospital. Nor did they try to find the chapilan he spoke with for a couple of hours.

If the FBI did SO MUCH research were was Duane 2 wks after he was released from Jefferson and then on the third wee - who was he keeping company with. What is the name of the man who was transferred fromt the Mn office that caused Duan to take off for N>C. to work so the man would not identify him. Everyone in the company knew who the man was --
a transfe from Pyramid Life. in MN. Duane was afread he would blow his cover - because he was no long John Collins.

If the FBI was so through - what story did his friend Jim tell you about the 50K Duane had and the trip he went on in Tallahasses and left Jim with the travel trailer and the full set up to run on Friday.
The FBI never came to me about the plane ticket to XXX when I could still get those record in 1990.

The FBI could have got the record but they weren't going to retrive it form. Why did the FBI give no information about his guest status at Jefferson? When it came to Tommy Gunn and John Collins they were not take in files and - no take out photos and no files. Ray was there the first yr Duane was there - what was their relationship
Who was Ray's lady friend who stayed with Mj for period of time?''She was foriegn and took him foriegn comics to sell. She lived with Duane's wife for a while.

Give this old lady clearance and I will find what you need in thos files - becuase they are there. Some one like Galen Cook and myself would take the task on. One person going into those files without the complete history doesnt have a clue what he is after in the world of 1971.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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Night jumps are required for C-license, and if USPA follows same rules as my association you are not allowed to do night jumps without a B-license. iow if you are looking for USPA/PCA member he would have had to have B-lic to (legally) have done night jumps before. Not sure how many jumps were required for C-license in those days (jump # requirements for licenses have increased over the years)?

Nice digging on USPA/PCA numbers. Bear in mind that membership is always wider than regular active jumpers, though by what margin I have no idea.

Thanks Orange1. There is nothing in the Cooper affair to say we should focus on regular active jumpers. I've always wondered why it appeared people created the dichotomy of "active jumpers" and everyone else including whuffos. It's also part of why I wondered why Cossey's opinion seemed to be the "official view" ...I think he represented the high end of the sport in '71. Precisely the wrong guy to talk to, if you're investigating hijacking by parachute?

In terms of "regular active jumpers":
In other risk sports, it's natural that people ebb and flow out of them. While they're "in", they may be at the extremes of the sport or not. Then they may go out. I think one of the "feels" I get about skydiving from DZ.com, right or wrong, is that somehow longetivity in the sport is coupled to something. I don't know what. But for the Cooper investigation, longevity shouldn't mean anything I think.

I was curious about how stringent/worried people were about the insurance/issues and pilot liability, and if people went along with getting licenses in '62-'70 just for that reason.

I'm also wondering if things were looser for non-US jump clubs, especially civilian clubs associated with USAF bases, say in Southeast Asia, during the same time period.

(edit) It'd be nice to have annual numbers for PCA/USPA from '62-70. I just randomly found that one '62 number. Looking at current USPA memberships numbers, I've always wondered if there was a straight linear increase or did it peak at some points, like '71 and decrease etc. I don't know.

(edit) current USPA 31,000 per
http://www.uspa.org/AboutUSPA/tabid/76/Default.aspx

[Orange1 0]

re regular active jumpers --

unless rules have changed a lot here (old timers please help) skydiving has "currency" requirements - minimum jumps that need to be made to avoid having to repeat training, etc. if (IF) you are looking for someone that had night jump experience, i.e. B-license or higher, it is likely that at least until the point he did the hijack he was a reasonably regular jumper. of course, if you are simply looking for someone who did a jump or 2 and then took a chance, sure you don't need to be looking at active jumpers or even at PCA/USPA members.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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re regular active jumpers --

unless rules have changed a lot here (old timers please help) skydiving has "currency" requirements - minimum jumps that need to be made to avoid having to repeat training, etc. if (IF) you are looking for someone that had night jump experience, i.e. B-license or higher, it is likely that at least until the point he did the hijack he was a reasonably regular jumper. of course, if you are simply looking for someone who did a jump or 2 and then took a chance, sure you don't need to be looking at active jumpers or even at PCA/USPA members.

Right. But if you're a hijacker, currency requirements are only interesting if there are rapid changes in available gear. At the period we're interested in, Cooper got gear that was not much different since the prior 12 years or so, right?

Now if parachutes had turned into anti-gravity-wave-defractors, and Cooper wasn't current, then it would have mattered.

The lack of dramatic change in the '62-'71 period, means we have to cover a lot more folks, if we think there's a minimum skill requirement. We've had a lot of debate on even whether there would be a skill requirement. Not worth reopening that discussion since lunacy is a base point that covers anything.

(edit) It's interesting that Pioneer apparently demonstrated the Paracommander at the '63 nationals, but delayed it because they were "conservative". I don' t know the full details on that.