DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

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Remember that swindle where some con artists convinced a Newsweek editor that he could interview Cooper? The bait was a couple of counterfeit twenties with real Cooper serial numbers. Those are the bills I want, not those worm eaten raggedy river bottom eBay notes.

I don't remember that, but in the FOIA files there is some magazine that ran a story where they interviewed Cooper...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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Ckret has gone silent on us. Unless there have been a rash of bank robberies in his district, I suspect he is running in more fashionable circles at the moment. This here is the GHETTO!

377

No, he is avoiding us and our questions. The FBI WON'T investigate the Hendrix link, and we have asked them to. It must be a cover-up!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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Remember that swindle where some con artists convinced a Newsweek editor that he could interview Cooper? The bait was a couple of counterfeit twenties with real Cooper serial numbers. Those are the bills I want, not those worm eaten raggedy river bottom eBay notes.

I don't remember that, but in the FOIA files there is some magazine that ran a story where they interviewed Cooper...

It was Karl Fleming that got hoaxed. He was at Newsweek but left in '72 to found his own mag. He grew up in a Methodist Church orphanage in North Carolina.

I think Karl was a good journalist. He was very involved in reporting on civil rights things in the South. Wrote a book (maybe books?) about the south/black/civil rights stuff of the '60s/'70s. Newsweek "point man" on civil rights stuff in South from '60-'65.

He got beaten at Watts
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4675388

"Son of the Rough South" got good reviews.

from
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050815/mcwhorter/1
"'Son of the Rough South' is Karl Fleming's memoir of how he transcended an "uncivil" boyhood in an orphanage to bear intrepid witness to the civil rights struggle as a Southern correspondent for Newsweek in the 1960s"

"Karl Fleming, the date with Movement destiny turned out to be a prelude to personal descent: alcoholism, mental breakdown and professional humiliation when the Los Angeles weekly he founded folded in 1972 after he published an interview with a con man claiming to be the legendary skyjacker D.B. Cooper. Looking back across the wreckage, Fleming sees his Movement days as a postponement of the inevitable reckoning with his fate as an orphan of history. "

[snowmman 3]

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Ckret has gone silent on us. Unless there have been a rash of bank robberies in his district, I suspect he is running in more fashionable circles at the moment. This here is the GHETTO!

377

No, he is avoiding us and our questions. The FBI WON'T investigate the Hendrix link, and we have asked them to. It must be a cover-up!

maybe in the midst of investigating the Morrison connection, he got confused about the description of which was the good acid, and which was the bad acid?

(edit) Note Jim's mom was named 'Clara'
http://www.morbid-curiosity.com/id153.htm

Sidewalk crouches at her feet
Like a dog that begs for something sweet
Do you hope to make her see, you fool?
Do you hope to pluck this dusky jewel?

[snowmman 3]

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/10/books/bk-garrow10

Covering white segregationists’ attacks on black protesters was dangerous for journalists, even for a burly, white Southern tough guy like Fleming. When James Meredith desegregated the University of Mississippi in October 1962, with dozens of federal marshals fighting off a violent white mob, Fleming was in the midst of the action. Two bystanders were killed, and Fleming writes, “I had four bullets stitched in a white wood column six inches from my head that night as I watched the Ole Miss riot from the entrance of the administration building.”

Neither that nor any other confrontation in the South represented Fleming’s closest brush with death. After his move to Los Angeles, Fleming covered the Watts riots unscathed in August 1965, but nine months later he returned to the neighborhood when Stokely Carmichael, a firebrand leader of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, helped energize angry new protests. At one rally, Fleming found himself being “fingered as a white intruder in Watts” by “none other than my old friend – or so I thought – from the South, Stokely Carmichael.”

Fleming was justifiably proud of his civil rights journalism record, so Carmichael’s verbal assault was a rude surprise. But far worse was in store when an unknown attacker took advantage of the turmoil on the streets later that day to club Fleming from behind with a 4-by-4-inch piece of lumber. The blow to his head knocked Fleming unconscious, fractured his skull and broke his jaw. A wire-service photo showing him lying prone in a pool of blood appeared in countless newspapers. Oddly, that picture was Fleming’s greatest moment of fame, for in the 1960s Newsweek did not use bylines. “Except in the places where we lived, and worked,” Fleming recounts, “news magazine reporters were all but anonymous,” and his courageous reporting appeared in Newsweek’s pages without his name ever being attached.

[snowmman 3]

Okay, I got page 400 from Son of the Rough South by Fleming.

the previous 3 pages aren't available, so I can't get the full story.

But he gives some details on the hoax.

here he says he was shown two twenties. So my description of the Xerox may not be fully correct? Have to research that more.

It's also interesting that the hoax story involved 3 radio beacons arranged in a triangle, that were supposedly used along with a radio receiver by Cooper on the 727, to figure out a DZ. (around prior planted car).
(attached)

(edit) I looked at the USA vs Murphy and Lewis complaint in the FBI FOIA file(s). It does seem to say that only copies of bills were exchanged. So my initial memory seems correct. (attached)

[labrys 0]

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no, labrys is conflicted.

No, not conflicted

And no, not convicted

Owned by Remi #?

[skyjack71 0]

Unless Elwood Reid has done another book - that book came out about 3 or 4 yrs ago - Duane's brother read it but I didn't. Elwood was in contact with me early on - but, he already was doing his book and was afraid that the publicity was going to hurt his book.

I was told it was a really filthy book, so I never read it ...John told me about it when I went to see him in Ca. while my husband was there for proton radiation. The bother and I did NOT get to have our private talk because Duane's sister had another heart attack while I was at his house.

Many unanswered questions? Question which will never be answered now.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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That anyone could have harranged the FBI and others the way Jo Weber has for the last 13+ years is damned near beyond the pale, in my book.

All because she merely wants to know the truth about a husband ?

There must be more to this! Tell me there is!?

Or do I have the wrong impression and cant' read written when its wrote, as Popeye said?

Popeye is right - the man with with the funny hat - go eat it not your spinach.

I have finally decided I have sat on all of this too long...take this with a little salt. For too long now it has been "squash". Popeye used me for several yrs. and now Olive Oil is going for revenge. Remember Popeye was not smart in the comics...just strong.

Olive Oil is going to talk and what a story she has to tell.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

OMG.
First we had the "mouse" stuiff, now...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[happythoughts 0]

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OMG.
First we had the "mouse" stuiff, now...

Well, that clears it up. Everyone... we can all go home.


So, we have gone from mythical people to cartoon people.

This is progress because we have their names.
The "secret" news is still the standard.
Cartoon people who are about to reveal "secret" information.

I just can't wait.

[skyjack71 0]

Somebody else started the Popeye business - Not, me.

I just decided to have some fun with it. Or am I serious?

All Shucks, Snowman and George, you two guys can play with Popeye and I can't, that's just not fair.

Oranger and Happythoughts don't want me to play so I guess I will go to bed. Maybe they don't know who Popeye is.

Funny little man with a funny little hat - isn't that right? He's been lurking here for a long time.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

Someone quoted Popeye - not sure if that is the same as "starting" the Popeye "business".

I note none of the allusions to King Lear etc by the same person were seen as "starting" anything (other than a bit of thread drift)

Yes I know Popeye, (enough to know that Olive Oyl is spelt with a Y, not an I)

I guess cartoon characters are becoming quite appropriate for this thread.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 247]

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Someone quoted Popeye - not sure if that is the same as "starting" the Popeye "business".

I note none of the allusions to King Lear etc by the same person were seen as "starting" anything (other than a bit of thread drift)

Yes I know Popeye, (enough to know that Olive Oyl is spelt with a Y, not an I)

The only game you're playing is ith yourself. Nobody
I know is interested in anything you have to say -
but you will keeping talking. Fools always do.


I guess cartoon characters are becoming quite appropriate for this thread.

[snowmman 3]

John Nash would love this thread.
John Nash would hate this thread.
Why? Because he was insane, of course. (paranoid schizophrenic)

http://www.rh.edu/~stodder/BE/IntroGameT.htm

1st concept of non-cooperative equilibrium:
"When everyone’s playing their best move to everyone else's best move, no-one’s going to move."

2nd concept:
"Think forward, then reason backward"

3rd concept:
"When everyone’s playing their best move conditional on expectations of everyone else’s best move, then no-one’s going to want to move."

[georger 247]

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John Nash would love this thread.
John Nash would hate this thread.
Why? Because he was insane, of course. (paranoid schizophrenic)

http://www.rh.edu/~stodder/BE/IntroGameT.htm

1st concept of non-cooperative equilibrium:
"When everyone’s playing their best move to everyone else's best move, no-one’s going to move."

2nd concept:
"Think forward, then reason backward"

3rd concept:
"When everyone’s playing their best move conditional on expectations of everyone else’s best move, then no-one’s going to want to move."

Reply> The below caught my attention several days
ago, as it applies to Grudge:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/12/oregon.bank.bomb/index.html

December 13, 2008 -- Updated 0757 GMT (1557 HKT)

(CNN) -- A bomb exploded at a Woodburn, Oregon, bank branch early Friday evening, killing a police officer and injuring the town's police chief and
a state bomb technician, Oregon State Police said.

Woodburn Police Chief Scott Russell was listed in critical condition at Oregon Health and Science University Hospital, according to hospital
spokeswoman Christine Decker.

(snip)

People know the banksters are the ones behind this financial collapse - and yet out super-corrupt congress just gave them trillions of dollars!!! Hell
yes people are mad.

Georger

[snowmman 3]

I always wondered why people shied away from creating a profile of Cooper as terrorist. It's the fashionable label nowadays, a la Kaczynski et al. Why doesn't every article about Cooper call him "terrorist"? We've agreed it was a violent act.

I also wonder why the profile of "know-it-all" would be appealing to Ckret. What the heck is a "know-it-all" anyhow? It has the appealing "you know one when you see one" feel, but are there "know-it-all's" that commit crimes? Are lots of bank robberies or bombings or ?? committed by people with half-knowledge, trying to show they have more knowledge? for some odd reason?

And why would the profile of career bank-robber be appealing to Agent H?

There is the robin-hood profile, from the press, which just seems dumb.

There is the middle-aged manager profile, escaping the drudgery of a hemmed-in life.

But why not the more dramatic profile? The tragically flawed anti-hero? The Heath Ledger as Joker standing on the stairs, embracing the rain in his business suit.

Is the idea of the Joker just not real? Did Heath Ledger just make it up from nowhere? Is Heath Ledger really not dead?

Why reject comic book mentalities? Are people somehow disgusted with the idea that they actually mirror/motivate people's psyche and want to hide from that thought? Or what?

In a world where every thinkable thought, motivates someone, why dismiss any?

Jumping out of an jet with a parachute in 1971 was not rational. How can a rational thought process decode Cooper?

[georger 247]

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I always wondered why people shied away from creating a profile of Cooper as terrorist. It's the fashionable label nowadays, a la Kaczynski et al. Why doesn't every article about Cooper call him "terrorist"? We've agreed it was a violent act.

I also wonder why the profile of "know-it-all" would be appealing to Ckret. What the heck is a "know-it-all" anyhow? It has the appealing "you know one when you see one" feel, but are there "know-it-all's" that commit crimes? Are lots of bank robberies or bombings or ?? committed by people with half-knowledge, trying to show they have more knowledge? for some odd reason?

And why would the profile of career bank-robber be appealing to Agent H?

There is the robin-hood profile, from the press, which just seems dumb.

There is the middle-aged manager profile, escaping the drudgery of a hemmed-in life.

But why not the more dramatic profile? The tragically flawed anti-hero? The Heath Ledger as Joker standing on the stairs, embracing the rain in his business suit.

Is the idea of the Joker just not real? Did Heath Ledger just make it up from nowhere? Is Heath Ledger really not dead?

Why reject comic book mentalities? Are people somehow disgusted with the idea that they actually mirror/motivate people's psyche and want to hide from that thought? Or what?

In a world where every thinkable thought, motivates someone, why dismiss any?

Jumping out of an jet with a parachute in 1971 was not rational. How can a rational thought process decode Cooper?

Obviously it was rational to him on some level or he planned to die. I seriously doubt we
are looking at some code of bushido here, except
as he said: "I have a grudge". But not with the airlines, he said. So with who? Who or what, was his
focus? Who or what would be harmed by his action?

Was this a personal crime or social crime?

Without his statement to Tina about a "grudge"
I would not pursue this direction but take his actions in the vein Ckret seems to endorse. ???

Georger

[377 22]

I agree that the Robin Hood profile for Cooper is dumb. It was terrorism, greed and worse... yet somehow Cooper has this enduring mythic aura of altruism and heroism.

WHY? I mean sure, you can characterize a night jet jump over unknown terrain as heroic, but where does the altruism come from? Was it his offer to give some of the loot to the flight attendant? A bailout for an underpaid stew followed by a real bailout?

I even find myself thinking of Cooper as basically a decent guy somehow reluctantly pushed to extremes by circumstances beyond his control, but that is BS!!!! How did a domestic terrorist get the mantle of folk hero? What a great PR job.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

While I was reading some of the psych studies about risk-seeking/enjoying personalities (true or false whatever), I noticed one mention where there was a comment about "playfullness" or something like that.

It made me think about the Cooper reaction when he got the money. We've used that description to make him sound a little idiotic. I wonder if it actually could be part of a profile for a risk enjoying individual?

I also wondered if Cooper survived whether he might have accumulated injuries in his life thru other "risk taking" behaviors. (either before or after the hijack)

Or, if he dropped skydiving, then took up other sports, that had similar perceived risk attributes?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V9F-3Y6GX1D-S&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e58442263b3fdf3e2ed77a3bd128aa87
"Risk sportsmen scored significantly lower than safe sportsmen on the TDS total score and on the Serious-Mindedness and Arousal Avoidance subscales, but there were no significant differences in Planning Orientation. Risk sportsmen scored significantly higher than safe on total NDS and on the Proactive subscale but not on the Reactive subscale. Analysis of T/PSI scores showed that both groups remained in their dominant state throughout the time course of the investigation. Risk sportsmen received more frequent and more serious injuries throughout the period of study and both TDS and NDS scores were significantly correlated with number of injuries.

Discussion of high-risk sport as a way of meeting arousal, escape and control needs, and as expressing rebellion is related to values and stereotypes involved in risky sports and to implications in identifying possible addictions and preventing injuries."

[snowmman 3]

Jo is in on the cover up. That is why your statement is not being published.
That's why you didn't get to meet Ckret during your Portland visit.
I am your only hope.
PM me.

-snowmman

p.s.
Do you want to pet my iguana?

[377 22]

Been trying to find ANY evidence that 727s were used for airdrops in SE Asia, so far zero. I even talked to a former Air America pilot who was active in clandestine stuff during the Nam war, zero. Joe Leeker, an aviation historian at the university of Texas, similarly makes no mention of such missions and his research included FOIA requests to the CIA.

http://www.utdallas.edu/library/collections/speccoll/Leeker/jets.pdf

Does anyone have solid evidence that 727s did airdrops anywhere besides the FBI sled drop test and at the WFFC skydiving event in Quincy Illinois?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Been trying to find ANY evidence that 727s were used for airdrops in SE Asia, so far zero. I even talked to a former Air America pilot who was active in clandestine stuff during the Nam war, zero. Joe Leeker, an aviation historian at the university of Texas, similarly makes no mention of such missions and his research included FOIA requests to the CIA.

http://www.utdallas.edu/library/collections/speccoll/Leeker/jets.pdf

Does anyone have solid evidence that 727s did airdrops anywhere besides the FBI sled drop test and at the WFFC skydiving event in Quincy Illinois?

377

well the transcripts imply boxes were sent out, possibly during some testing.

Do you remember that book on Boeing history, where I quoted a review saying that Air America "inquired" about air drop possibility before they made their purchase of 3 or 4 727s. We've previously documented the use/ownership of 3-4 727s by Civil Air Transport (connected to Air America).

I think maybe some talk during the purchases and/or testing by Boeing, may have created some of this mythology.

I don't have a copy of the book I mentioned. I posted the title before. Maybe I should hunt again.

(edit) nice little site on cia airlines '54-'75 in Laos
http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/airamerica/best/

nice stuff besides the planes, for instance this copy of a 1970 from the Vietnam embassy in Wash. D.C.
http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/star/images/1653/16530103007.pdf

It mentions that Air Vietnam had 727s in its commercial fleet.

"Commerical airlines on domestic runs carried 1,510,700 passengers in 1969, averaging nearly 4,200 a day. In addition, the planes carry fresh vegetables and flowers from Dalat to the big city markets; fish and shrimp from the coastal areas; as well as emergency rice shipments to deprived communities. Newspapers and medical supplies are flown regularly to the provinces, providing the people in remote areas with a vital link to the Saigon Government.

The government-controlled airline, Air Viet-Nam, now has a fleet which includes two Boeing 727 jets, and a third is about to be added. It also operates seven DC-3s, six DC-4s, and a number of smaller aircrafts, including helicopters. In addition to its domestic service, the line flies weekly to Kuala Lumpur, Phnom Penh, Bangkok, Vien...

(edit)
will list some good book references here:
The Boeing 727, John A Whittle et al, Air-Britain (Historians) Ltd., 1976, ISBN 0 85130 047 2.

Legend & Legacy: The Story of Boeing and Its People, Robert J. Serling
http://www.amazon.com/dp/031205890X?tag=allinterviewscom&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=031205890X&creative=373489&camp=211189
"According to Robert Serling's book about the Boeing Company, three Boeing 727s were acquired by Air America, which was operated by the CIA. Indeed, the head of Air America inquired about how much cargo could be dropped down the rear stairs before Air America purchased its 727s."

[snowmman 3]

This is just a nice historical photo from 1975

http://news.webshots.com/photo/2977516180031690022lDAECJ

Funny coincidence, there's a northwest orient plane in the background. So NWA must have flown to vietnam in '75?
I think the photo album implies they are from Vietnam i.e. Hinh Anh Viet Nam Truoc Nam 1975

[georger 247]

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Been trying to find ANY evidence that 727s were used for airdrops in SE Asia, so far zero. I even talked to a former Air America pilot who was active in clandestine stuff during the Nam war, zero. Joe Leeker, an aviation historian at the university of Texas, similarly makes no mention of such missions and his research included FOIA requests to the CIA.

http://www.utdallas.edu/library/collections/speccoll/Leeker/jets.pdf

Does anyone have solid evidence that 727s did airdrops anywhere besides the FBI sled drop test and at the WFFC skydiving event in Quincy Illinois?

377

well the transcripts imply boxes were sent out, possibly during some testing.

Reply> I agree. The transcripts do imply boxes
could be sent out the back of a 727 - Boeing tests.
Obviously they had done it. If the military wished to
know if you could make ice cream in a 727, Im sure
tests were done (to sell the plane).

In addition, every Vietnam vet Ive ever talked to
say yes without pause - "oh sure. The 727 was used
to make drops of cargo". That we cant find it confirmed on the Internet may say more about the Internet than
about actual facts of Vietnam and the 727. The Internet is funny that way. Its strange what gets Google-life and what does not.

The 727 may not have been a preferred drop vehicle
but that does not mean it wasn't done.

The greater issue is: it could be done! That is all that
is required in this case. Obviously people thought
it could be done, even the manufacturers. So Cooper
comes along and does it. Now all doubt is removed.
It can be done. It happened.

This satisfies the "Labrys Axiomatic Condition". It's
no longer a rough unbounded outline but a specific fact.

Georger

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