DB Cooper

[Math of Insects 98]

12 minutes ago, georger said:

What we have done here, is open Pandora's box!  I have no doubt some people will focus on this with abandon, and use it to make all kinds of claims, get press attention, and possibly turn the Cooper investigation into a literal circus.It's interesting to me that the FBI actually tested Kenneth Chrstiansen and Duane Weber, people I refuse to even call 'suspects', who were dismissable on other grounds. That must have been a political decision. It seems to me Colbert now has strong grounds for asking that Rackstraw's dna be tested, to get that matter settled once-and-for-all. And possibly a few other 'suspects', likewise.

Tom Kaye may now get involved in a serious way? Darren may do several podcasts now that the road has been paved for him. Edwards may get involved and surprise us with something ... 

One key phrase in the report says: " “Based on the STR typing results, specimen K2 (LANGSETH) is excluded as a potential contributor to the mixture of DNA obtained from specimen Q40/Q41.”  The key word is "mixture". We aren't dealing with one single profile here but a mixture from x-number of individuals, all male. That has strong implications for arriving at a single profile which is Cooper, and Cooper's alone. Think about that!

Dumb question, Georger, but: if I sit on an airplane seat in a suit, do I definitely leave DNA there? Do I do enough shedding of skin or hair cells that I am absolutely going to be among the samples collected, or could I sit there for a whole flight and never be among the samples found?

If I definitely do, is it possible to tell--based on...intensity?? Amount??--who the "most recent" entries might be to a sample that contains multiple contributors? Or could all that DNA potentially be from skin cells shed decades before?

[FLYJACK 700]

DNA mixtures do present problems..

https://www.nist.gov/feature-stories/dna-mixtures-forensic-science-explainer

[FLYJACK 700]

2002 report,,, "more than one individual"

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

Wasn’t Tom Kaye identified as having his DNA on some Cooper item?

[FLYJACK 700]

14 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Wasn’t Tom Kaye identified as having his DNA on some Cooper item?

No, they vacuumed the tie and when the vacuum filter was tested his DNA was found..

[ParrotheadVol 70]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

No, they vacuumed the tie and when the vacuum filter was tested his DNA was found..

Is that from the TV show a couple of years or so ago? I don't remember the exact scenario, but something was tested and they were hopeful for Cooper DNA but instead got Tom's DNA. If I remember correctly, this was one of the shows with Ullis. Maybe the same one where he found what he thought was a piece of a parachute and took it to 377 to possibly ID.

[FLYJACK 700]

6 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Is that from the TV show a couple of years or so ago? I don't remember the exact scenario, but something was tested and they were hopeful for Cooper DNA but instead got Tom's DNA. If I remember correctly, this was one of the shows with Ullis. Maybe the same one where he found what he thought was a piece of a parachute and took it to 377 to possibly ID.

Yes, Tom had the filter and they tested it for the show expecting tie DNA but the only DNA was Tom's..  announced after the show aired... clearly Tom was Cooper.

and the test was destructive..

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

for anyone wondering, it wasn't the DC Crime Lab that destroyed the cigs, but Vegas at some point when they got them back. This indicates that DC sent Q1 back to Vegas after testing. 

 

 

[JAGdb 88]

Something isn't quite adding up for me regarding the DNA sample. 

The fact that it's a partial, isn't ideal, but be that as it may, it's better than nothing.  And in the situation that this case was and is still in, I'm all for examining every rabbit hole and adding as many pieces of data as possible to the tool kit.

That being said, we all know that there is no guarantee it's the hijacker's DNA.  Maybe...maybe not.  In addition, retired agent LC diminished the value of the DNA on the Cooper Vortex episode.

Yet, the FBI used it to rule suspects out from 2002 to ~2016 ? How ?  Why if the above is true ?

By all means, use it and compare it to suspects in the chance that if one matches, you may have found the hijacker.   But should it have been used to rule suspects out when it could have been the JC Penny's stock boy's DNA ?

 

[Coopericane 44]

22 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Something isn't quite adding up for me regarding the DNA sample. 

The fact that it's a partial, isn't ideal, but be that as it may, it's better than nothing.  And in the situation that this case was and is still in, I'm all for examining every rabbit hole and adding as many pieces of data as possible to the tool kit.

That being said, we all know that there is no guarantee it's the hijacker's DNA.  Maybe...maybe not.  In addition, retired agent LC diminished the value of the DNA on the Cooper Vortex episode.

Yet, the FBI used it to rule suspects out from 2002 to ~2016 ? How ?  Why if the above is true ?

By all means, use it and compare it to suspects in the chance that if one matches, you may have found the hijacker.   But should it have been used to rule suspects out when it could have been the JC Penny's stock boy's DNA ?

 

I've always heard that it was actually three different partial profiles they found on the tie, each belonging to a different male. So when a suspect's DNA is tested, they are actually being compared to that batch of partial samples. It's not an unreasonable assumption to make that one of those profiles is Cooper, but then again it's not something they can be sure of, either. Whether or not any suspect was ruled out entirely on the basis of their DNA is unknown to me, but I feel like it's one of many factors they would have considered though acknowledging it's not something they can rely upon completely.

[FLYJACK 700]

23 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Something isn't quite adding up for me regarding the DNA sample. 

The fact that it's a partial, isn't ideal, but be that as it may, it's better than nothing.  And in the situation that this case was and is still in, I'm all for examining every rabbit hole and adding as many pieces of data as possible to the tool kit.

That being said, we all know that there is no guarantee it's the hijacker's DNA.  Maybe...maybe not.  In addition, retired agent LC diminished the value of the DNA on the Cooper Vortex episode.

Yet, the FBI used it to rule suspects out from 2002 to ~2016 ? How ?  Why if the above is true ?

By all means, use it and compare it to suspects in the chance that if one matches, you may have found the hijacker.   But should it have been used to rule suspects out when it could have been the JC Penny's stock boy's DNA ?

 

yup, same deal with fingerprints..

I suspect that the FBI never really eliminates a suspect,, they were fishing for a match with new tech.

The only chance we will have is if new DNA can be obtained with new tech.. and that may be impossible now..

[FLYJACK 700]

Conspiracy Panel - Chris C., Bruce A. Smith, Nicky Broughton - DB Cooper Con 2022 - 11/20/22

 

 

[FLYJACK 700]

Pressure fluctuations on other hijackings,,

 

Pressure change for McCoy's hijacking.. (McCoy FBI files)

Edited December 4, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 244]

 

3 hours ago, Coopericane said:

I've always heard that it was actually three different partial profiles they found on the tie, each belonging to a different male. So when a suspect's DNA is tested, they are actually being compared to that batch of partial samples. It's not an unreasonable assumption to make that one of those profiles is Cooper, but then again it's not something they can be sure of, either. Whether or not any suspect was ruled out entirely on the basis of their DNA is unknown to me, but I feel like it's one of many factors they would have considered though acknowledging it's not something they can rely upon completely.

Thats correct. Maybe this will help:   https://www.nist.gov/feature-stories/dna-mixtures-forensic-science-explaine

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by georger

[georger 244]

8 hours ago, Coopericane said:

I've always heard that it was actually three different partial profiles they found on the tie, each belonging to a different male. So when a suspect's DNA is tested, they are actually being compared to that batch of partial samples. It's not an unreasonable assumption to make that one of those profiles is Cooper, but then again it's not something they can be sure of, either. Whether or not any suspect was ruled out entirely on the basis of their DNA is unknown to me, but I feel like it's one of many factors they would have considered though acknowledging it's not something they can rely upon completely.

Let me pose another question since dna is now part of the Cooper conversation. See Langseth's K2 chart below. The first line lists the loci tested. What do those numbers in the second line stand for ?  14, 15, 17, 18 etc .... two numbers in each box underneath each loci ?   Those are 'stringency' values  Look that word up as it relates to dna testing. Those numbers indicate Low, Moderate, High strength of match at each loci, between the K2 (Langseth) sample vs the multi donor/Cooper reference profile being used.. Those numbers decide if a person is ruled in or out. Each suspect tested to date has been ruled out.

See more on stringency here:  https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/oct2009/standard_guidlines/swgdam.html

and here:  https://www.fbi.gov/how-we-can-help-you/dna-fingerprint-act-of-2005-expungement-policy/codis-and-ndis-fact-sheet

Edited December 4, 2022 by georger

[MeyerLouie 5]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Pressure fluctuations on other hijackings,,

 

Pressure change for McCoy's hijacking.. (McCoy FBI files)

Interesting that mysterious Cooper and McCoy get compared at times...wouldn't it be something if McCoy really was Cooper all along and, all these years, we have been chasing the elusive, mysterious, whoever-he-is DB Cooper.  One theory I have heard is that McCoy lost most of his money on the 11/24/71 jump, he was desperate for cash, so he went for it again, but was careless that second time around.  And there is the timeline issue of where he was Thanksgiving evening and all.  What if....??  What if we have been barking up the wrong tree, what if it isn't the big mystery we have made it out to be?  No problem, I have had a good time, got on TV,  met some great people..it's all good.       MeyerLouie

Edited December 4, 2022 by MeyerLouie
add more info

[MeyerLouie 5]

12 minutes ago, MeyerLouie said:

Interesting that mysterious Cooper and McCoy get compared at times...wouldn't it be something if McCoy really was Cooper all along and, all these years, we have been chasing the elusive, mysterious, whoever-he-is DB Cooper.  One theory I have heard is that McCoy lost most of his money on the 11/24/71 jump, he was desperate for cash, so he went for it again, but was careless that second time around.  And there is the timeline issue of where he was Thanksgiving evening and all.  What if....??  What if we have been barking up the wrong tree, what if it isn't the big mystery we have made it out to be?  No problem, I have had a good time, got on TV,  met some great people..it's all good.       MeyerLouie

P.S. And I got to get up and sing with the band a couple of times at the DB Cooper Ariel Party....it's been fun for sure..

[FLYJACK 700]

3 hours ago, MeyerLouie said:

Interesting that mysterious Cooper and McCoy get compared at times...wouldn't it be something if McCoy really was Cooper all along and, all these years, we have been chasing the elusive, mysterious, whoever-he-is DB Cooper.  One theory I have heard is that McCoy lost most of his money on the 11/24/71 jump, he was desperate for cash, so he went for it again, but was careless that second time around.  And there is the timeline issue of where he was Thanksgiving evening and all.  What if....??  What if we have been barking up the wrong tree, what if it isn't the big mystery we have made it out to be?  No problem, I have had a good time, got on TV,  met some great people..it's all good.       MeyerLouie

McCoy was not Cooper, Dan Gryder's McCoy narrative is wrong and IMO a fraud... the Cooper chute he claims he found is clearly not Cooper's and he should know that.

[FLYJACK 700]

On 8/13/2022 at 10:23 AM, FLYJACK said:

Checked the McCoy files for the pilot's take on the jump..

The crew saw the red airstair light on.. (It is officially amber but looks red)

Felt a movement. Change in pressure. 11:11 - 11:12 radio transmission from crew believed hijacker just exited.

Went back and checked, hijacker gone. 11:27 confirmed by radio hijacker gone.

 

 

McCoy hijacking,, no he is NOT Cooper.

but the pilots felt a pressure change and announced on the radio they thought he had jumped..

It was determined he jumped right before the radio call.

 

The same scenario as Cooper..  Rataczak said "mark your shrimp boats" right after the pressure event but it wasn't recorded due to the radio frequency error..

He called Soderlind minutes later in the suburbs Portland.. and Soderlind was listening in and taking notes the whole time.

Cooper jumped around the 8:10-13 timeframe and between about the Lewis R and Battleground. 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Math of Insects 98]

Dead wrong. He drifted in the wind and landed in Pittsburgh. He hid the money safely away and forgot about it because no one steals money they need, only money it would be fun to die trying to acquire. Then years later it was all over the national news that a little stretch of a local river 3,000 miles away might flood. So he took the money from its safe hiding place and headed off to the exact place he would have landed if the wind hadn’t carried him to PA. No one looks for a criminal at the crime scene! He looked for the perfect section of four-foot-deep water to bury the 1.5 mil under, because that’s the safest and most logical place to bury the fortune you risked your life to acquire and have had safely hidden ever since. 

Using self-fabricated SCUBA gear and a shovel made out of the dreams of bored rich guys, he dug a hole in the sand of what would eventually, when the flood waters receded, be an easy spot for him to find again, because what better place to hide something than on the one strip of beach you could count on others frequenting.
 

Once the money was safely and reliably hidden under the four feet of water, he turned the SCUBA gear into a winged horse and flew back to Pittsburgh, only three minutes late for the end of his OSHA-mandated 10-minute break.

 

This happened on a Tuesday. It’s all in the files.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Math of Insects

[georger 244]

9 hours ago, MeyerLouie said:

P.S. And I got to get up and sing with the band a couple of times at the DB Cooper Ariel Party....it's been fun for sure..

Nice to see you here!  Welcome home. 

[georger 244]

 

Robert H. Edwards's Blog: Great 20th century mysteries

December 4, 2022

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: “no funny stuff”

Edward's British take on Cooper's language.  Interesting.  "Get the show on the road" .... origin? Chicago circus culture .... a phrase that becomes part of the American lexicon used throughout the Midwest dialect ?  

How do Cooper's and McCoy's speech patterns compare ? 

Edited December 4, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 700]

14 minutes ago, georger said:

 

Robert H. Edwards's Blog: Great 20th century mysteries

December 4, 2022

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: “no funny stuff”

Edward's British take on Cooper's language.  Interesting.  "Get the show on the road" .... origin? Chicago circus culture .... a phrase that becomes part of the American lexicon used throughout the Midwest dialect ?  

How do Cooper's and McCoy's speech patterns compare ? 

You are right, this case is becoming a circus..

[olemisscub 510]

1 hour ago, georger said:

 

Robert H. Edwards's Blog: Great 20th century mysteries

December 4, 2022

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: “no funny stuff”

Edward's British take on Cooper's language.  Interesting.  "Get the show on the road" .... origin? Chicago circus culture .... a phrase that becomes part of the American lexicon used throughout the Midwest dialect ?  

How do Cooper's and McCoy's speech patterns compare ? 

We don’t even know if any of these statements are his words verbatim, so what a fruitless exercise this is. Even if we were certain that they were verbatim it would still be fruitless.

[olemisscub 510]

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

McCoy was not Cooper, Dan Gryder's McCoy narrative is wrong and IMO a fraud... the Cooper chute he claims he found is clearly not Cooper's and he should know that.

Either he’s truly ignorant of basic Cooper facts (no D-rings) or he knows better and is incompetent at pulling off a hoax (failing to ensure that the planted chute didn’t have D-rings). Which do you think?