DB Cooper

[Robert99 50]

12 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Honestly why do we give a shit where he jumped at this point?

Well if you don't care where Cooper jumped, you may as well search for him in Acapulco, Mexico.  The weather there is a lot more pleasant than in Portland/Vancouver during the winter.

Actually, determining where Cooper jumped should be the first thing done if you are really interested in solving the hijacking.

[olemisscub 522]

6 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Well if you don't care where Cooper jumped, you may as well search for him in Acapulco, Mexico.  The weather there is a lot more pleasant than in Portland/Vancouver during the winter.

Actually, determining where Cooper jumped should be the first thing done if you are really interested in solving the hijacking.

Most likely somewhere north of Vancouver and south of Woodland. Why does precise location matter toward solving the case? You think he left a business card on the ground or dropped his wallet in the brush? I don’t get why it matters anymore. Any evidence is long gone.

[Math of Insects 98]

10 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Most likely somewhere north of Vancouver and south of Woodland. Why does precise location matter toward solving the case? You think he left a business card on the ground or dropped his wallet in the brush? I don’t get why it matters anymore. Any evidence is long gone.

Thank you.

There is a lot of magical thinking around this aspect.

First of all, if he did not survive the freefall (i.e., if his chute did not open), the result is not like in the movies. There's not some intact body just lying there waiting to be found. If you remember when David Letterman used to drop things off a 5-story building, you have a pretty good idea what happens to objects in motion on impact with immovable forces. Cooper fell from far more than 5 stories. Bodies are not tougher than ground. That's all I'll say about that part.

Second of all, it's the woods. Go into the woods right now, and toss a shoe somewhere. 

Then go back in a month and try to find it. 

Then go back in a year.

Then go back in five years.

Would you even need to continue the experiment to know what you'd find in FIFTY years?

 

[georger 252]

Robert H. Edwards's Blog: Great 20th century mysteries

December 9, 2022

D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: the oscillations and the pressure bump (revisited)

"It was very dark, with virtually no ground reference except when we got in the Portland area" (Second Officer, 2014). Implicitly, there is some visibility of ground in the Portland area; we do not know whether the crew considers Vancouver, Washington, as part of the Portland area.

(Referring to the bump or the report of the bump) "They had not yet reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof" (First Officer, 1971.) To me, "Portland proper" means old Portland, the area bounded by the I-5 and the I-405; and the "suburbs" mean Northeast Portland and St. Johns; but they do not include Vancouver. This sounds like they have crossed the Columbia River.

" At 2018 PST +/- 30 seconds, Flight 305 passes the position 23 nautical miles south of the Battle Ground VORTAC on the Victor 23 airway. It is now south of Lake Oswego and approximately abeam Tualatin, Oregon. Backtracking from this point at three nautical miles per minute: Flight 305 begins its crossing of the Columbia at approximately 2013 PST. "

Edited December 10, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 735]

They could see the glow of Portland,,, the clouds were broken.

So, Cooper would know if he was over a city even if he couldn't see the ground, Vancouver and Portland would emit a glow..

There is no way Cooper intentionally jumps over a city at night in an unsteerable chute.... 

Edited December 11, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 735]

Soderlind's notes with times..

 

FBI asked him for his notes..

Edited December 11, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 735]

Teletype was edited to exclude non NORJAK comms..

[FLYJACK 735]

Anybody corroborate this statement.. it is from Gray's book,,

"They're not going to take me alive,"

If he did say it..  It supports the bomb being real. 

[olemisscub 522]

17 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Anybody corroborate this statement.. it is from Gray's book,,

"They're not going to take me alive,"

If he did say it..  It supports the bomb being real. 

Tina says this in the HBO documentary. 

I've been a proponent of the bomb being real for some time now. I think that he would have only used it if he got cornered. Bomb serves two purposes if you set it off: it kills you but it also likely makes your remains unidentifiable. If he was killed in a shootout or something and they couldn't figure out who he was, you can bet for damn sure they'd have thrown his dead face into the papers asking "do you recognize this man?". So blowing yourself up eliminates yourself but also eliminates you being ID'd if you were peraps worried about bringing embarrassment and shame onto your family. 

While at CooperCon, I showed Kaye the statement that Tina made from the cockpit describing the bomb. He had never seen it before. One of the guys at the table had a brother who worked in Hollywood as a pyrotechnics guy and he called him to figure out how many amps (or maybe volts) it would take to set off a blasting cap for dynamite. Whatever that battery was (Tom knew what it was from Tina's description) certainly had enough juice to pop a blasting cap. So there's nothing to rule it out being real. 

[georger 252]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Tina says this in the HBO documentary. 

I've been a proponent of the bomb being real for some time now. I think that he would have only used it if he got cornered. Bomb serves two purposes if you set it off: it kills you but it also likely makes your remains unidentifiable. If he was killed in a shootout or something and they couldn't figure out who he was, you can bet for damn sure they'd have thrown his dead face into the papers asking "do you recognize this man?". So blowing yourself up eliminates yourself but also eliminates you being ID'd if you were peraps worried about bringing embarrassment and shame onto your family. 

While at CooperCon, I showed Kaye the statement that Tina made from the cockpit describing the bomb. He had never seen it before. One of the guys at the table had a brother who worked in Hollywood as a pyrotechnics guy and he called him to figure out how many amps (or maybe volts) it would take to set off a blasting cap for dynamite. Whatever that battery was (Tom knew what it was from Tina's description) certainly had enough juice to pop a blasting cap. So there's nothing to rule it out being real. 

Old posts reflect that we had five retired Marine ordinance people examine Tina's testimony. Two things stood out from Tina's testimony. The wiring was correct and it would have worked like a real bomb. Based on that two of the guys built and tested the device based on Tina's description . At an ordinance site. It worked.

 

[georger 252]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Anybody corroborate this statement.. it is from Gray's book,,

"They're not going to take me alive,"

If he did say it..  It supports the bomb being real. 

Who knows - Grey invented things.

[olemisscub 522]

1 minute ago, georger said:

Who knows - Grey invented things.

He didn’t invent that since Tina appears to have corroborated it.

However, he definitely didn’t talk to Alice Hancock while she was living in the suburbs of Minneapolis. Alice has been living in Texas since the late 70’s. Makes me think that entire conversation was made up. 

[georger 252]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

They could see the glow of Portland,,, the clouds were broken.

So, Cooper would know if he was over a city even if he couldn't see the ground, Vancouver and Portland would emit a glow..

There is no way Cooper intentionally jumps over a city at night in an unsteerable chute.... 

Contradicts ALL of R99's 'testimony' !   

[FLYJACK 735]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Tina says this in the HBO documentary. 

I've been a proponent of the bomb being real for some time now. I think that he would have only used it if he got cornered. Bomb serves two purposes if you set it off: it kills you but it also likely makes your remains unidentifiable. If he was killed in a shootout or something and they couldn't figure out who he was, you can bet for damn sure they'd have thrown his dead face into the papers asking "do you recognize this man?". So blowing yourself up eliminates yourself but also eliminates you being ID'd if you were peraps worried about bringing embarrassment and shame onto your family. 

While at CooperCon, I showed Kaye the statement that Tina made from the cockpit describing the bomb. He had never seen it before. One of the guys at the table had a brother who worked in Hollywood as a pyrotechnics guy and he called him to figure out how many amps (or maybe volts) it would take to set off a blasting cap for dynamite. Whatever that battery was (Tom knew what it was from Tina's description) certainly had enough juice to pop a blasting cap. So there's nothing to rule it out being real. 

Yup, Tina did corroborate Cooper's statement in the HBO doc,,

he said he won't be taken alive..

Dynamite does come in red,, but imagine the psychology of pulling off a hijacking with a fake bomb, if people don't believe it, he is done.. a sky marshal or a couple passengers may jump him.

A real bomb would give him the confidence, a fake bomb wouldn't unless he had another concealed weapon.

We won't know for sure, but I lean toward real.

Edited December 11, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 50]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Contradicts ALL of R99's 'testimony' !   

Come on Georger, get real.  There was an overcast (do you know what that is?) at 5000 feet and at least two broken cloud layers (do you know what they are?) below the overcast.  The airliner was at 10,000 feet.

This has been talked to death before here and it is obvious that the flight crew could see the "glow" of the lights from Portland/Vancouver but could not see the ground.

Nevertheless, Cooper jumped at night in the northern "suburb's" of the Portland/Vancouver area.

[Math of Insects 98]

12 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Yup, Tina did corroborate Cooper's statement in the HBO doc,,

he said he won't be taken alive..

Dynamite does come in red,, but imagine the psychology of pulling off a hijacking with a fake bomb, if people don't believe it, he is done.. a sky marshal or a couple passengers may jump him.

A real bomb would give him the confidence, a fake bomb wouldn't unless he had another concealed weapon.

We won't know for sure, but I lean toward real.

There are a couple of ways to read the "won't be taken alive" comment, but both of them include the element of Cooper setting out on what he was aware would likely be his last endeavor on earth--and if the bomb was real, one that also involved bringing others down with him.

While we're a little desensitized to this these days, that's a very, very desperate and unique mindset. IMO it's always been the strongest argument against some of the most commonly suggested suspects. This was, as far as he knew, likely the day his life ended. If he also knew the bomb was real, then he also knew he was the day he killed many others too...aka, mass murder. This is a crucial element that I think we sometimes gloss over. It's hard to get from that guy to living peacefully on a San Diego boat or playing tennis and writing letters to the editor or really any continued life of unremarkability. Only in the movies is "Wednesday" a terrorist event and "Thursday" and ever after playing Go Fish at the table with the nieces and nephews. 

The arc of history would not bend toward normalcy for that guy. 

[CooperNWO305 155]

Was Reynolds Metals in Portland looked at? I seem to remember some chatter about an Alcoa plant and was wondering if that is the same place?

[FLYJACK 735]

I saw this letter in the HBO doc,, does anybody remember it or have a source, is it legit, date? I did a word search in the FBI docs but no hit,, it may be an image somewhere..

I was able to read some of the blacked out text..

The hotel is the Rodeway Inn.. and the name was John Collins…

 

Jo Weber claimed Duane used John C Collins,, but I couldn’t confirm that he actually did. Duane was not Cooper but Jo had access to documents and may have made up the John Collins name for Duane to fit this doc,, that was her MO..

 

Anyway, this may be the only "potential" reference to anybody being Cooper prior to the hijacking. The FBI took the registration card he touched but nothing was ever noted in the FBI files.

 

It might not be Cooper but it is interesting.

 

Rodeway Inn is still there.

Edited December 11, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 735]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Was Reynolds Metals in Portland looked at? I seem to remember some chatter about an Alcoa plant and was wondering if that is the same place?

Reynolds was in Troutdale Or,, The Alcoa plant was near Lake Vancouver on the Washington side of the Columbia.. maybe 16 miles apart..

[Math of Insects 98]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I saw this letter in the HBO doc,, does anybody remember it or have a source, is it legit, date? I did a word search in the FBI docs but no hit,, it may be an image somewhere..

I was able to read some of the blacked out text..

The hotel is the Rodeway Inn.. and the name was John Collins…

Jo Weber claimed Duane used John C Collins,, but I couldn’t confirm that he actually did. Duane was not Cooper but Jo had access to documents and may have made up the John Collins name for Duane to fit this doc,, that was her MO..

Anyway, this may be the only "potential" reference to anybody being Cooper prior to the hijacking. The FBI took the registration card he touched but nothing was ever noted in the FBI files.

It might not be Cooper but it is interesting.

"Early evening" and "the night before" "THANKSGIVING DAY" would seem to disqualify this man from being Cooper, yes? Checking in in time to make the flight would be decidedly "afternoon" and she'd never refer to it as "night," and checking in after the hijacking would never be considered "early evening," unless the parachute brought him to the motel parking lot minutes after the jump. Even then, though...8:30pm in the winter is not early evening. And he'd be wet and weathered and would not look like air crew.

This feels like someone's wishful thinking, like the Elsinore suspect. Is there any chance Jo wrote it? It's from many years later, it appears. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Math of Insects

[FLYJACK 735]

40 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

"Early evening" and "the night before" "THANKSGIVING DAY" would seem to disqualify this man from being Cooper, yes? Checking in in time to make the flight would be decidedly "afternoon" and she'd never refer to it as "night," and checking in after the hijacking would never be considered "early evening," unless the parachute brought him to the motel parking lot minutes after the jump. Even then, though...8:30pm in the winter is not early evening. And he'd be wet and weathered and would not look like air crew.

This feels like someone's wishful thinking, like the Elsinore suspect. Is there any chance Jo wrote it? It's from many years later, it appears. 

I don't read it that way.. Thanksgiving day was when the FBI arrived..

He could have checked in the day before the hijacking and if he asked for a late wakeup call that may have been the 24th..

It could be unrelated and the wording is vague but why would the FBI take the registration card.. if it was Wednesday early evening, it wasn't Cooper..

Edited December 11, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 252]

14 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Come on Georger, get real.  There was an overcast (do you know what that is?) at 5000 feet and at least two broken cloud layers (do you know what they are?) below the overcast.  The airliner was at 10,000 feet.

This has been talked to death before here and it is obvious that the flight crew could see the "glow" of the lights from Portland/Vancouver but could not see the ground.

Nevertheless, Cooper jumped at night in the northern "suburb's" of the Portland/Vancouver area.

Have you made up your mind?  Here are your previous statements on this matter. Keeping track of you is pointless and a full time job!

R99 replied to Quade June 5, 2011:  ..You apparently don't seem to understand that the weather in the Portland area at the time of the jump consisted of several cloud layers plus a complete overcast. Cooper could not see even the lights of Portland when he jumped. Regardless of the parachute's color, it would not be overly visible...

R99 replied to Quade ...The quote in Nuttall's book only addresses the fact that there was a dense cloud cover and overcast that prevented the airliner, flying at about 10,000 feet, from even seeing a "cloud glow" from those two cities. The ground conditions are meaningless in this case. However, the cloud layers , or...July 6, 2011

Robert99 replied...the airliner was above an overcast and several cloud layers when it passed through the Portland area. The people on the airliner could not see the ground. And vice-versa, the people on the ground could not see the airliner. The Janet story, and other such claims, are nonsense.February 6, 2012

Robert99 replied...I have looked down at night time through clouds at quite a few areas of light glow, coming from various cities, over the last 50+ years. Nevertheless, the flight crew of the hijacked airliner said that the overcast and several layers of clouds below them that night were so thick that they could not see the light glow from the Portland and Vancouver areas." I have no idea where Robt99 got this statement on behalf of the whole "f...May 21, 2012

 

. Robert99 replied.: " the flight crew of the hijacked airliner said that the overcast and several layers of clouds below them that night were so thick that they could not see the light glow from the Portland and Vancouver areas." I have no idea where Robt99 got this statement on behalf of the whole "flight crew”. It’s ridiculous or something he made up. ...May 22, 2012

 

 R99 12/9/19:  There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

 

Robert99 replied...there where DEFINITE openings when Cooper could have got a casting of lights below the clouds . Witnesses just East of Heisson and North of Heisson - (four of them) said the PLANE was very low and the man claimed to see a shadow in above the cloud level. I think he could hear and was looking in th... May 15, 2013

 

Robert99 replied...There is mention in the weather hourly sequence reports of about three cloud layers with the top one being an overcast at 5000 feet. Such stable cloud layers support the existence of a stable ..air mass in general, that is, only minimal turbulence. The only other turbulence producing capability i... June 21, 2013

 

Robert99 replied...There were several cloud layers with an overcast reported at 5000 feet. Visibility at Portland was about 10 miles and there were light rain showers in the area. Himmelsbach's book states that the airliner was at 10,000 feet and in heavy rain at the time Cooper jumped. Recently, Rataczak (the c... August 15, 2013

 

Robert99 replied...if you think Cooper is going to locate his position by a glimpse through an overcast and two or three additional cloud layers in the middle of the night and while in the middle of nowhere, then I can only conclude that you do not have a realistic understanding of the situation that Cooper was in at...February 1, 2014

 

Robert99 replied...but the airliner was above several cloud layers and an overcast so that the river could not have been seen visually. In addition, the airliner was only over the river proper for a few miles (at more than three miles per minute groundspeed) so the probability of Cooper landing in water deliberately is zero... September 20, 2014

 

R99:  August 20, 2018, 12:19:47 PM » .....  feet and above an overcast and several additional cloud layers, it is highly unlikely that Rataczak could  ............  lying when they apparently could see through the clouds and see the lights of Portland ? I’m waiting on  ............  answer !

 

R99: 6/17/19 There is no way that Cooper could have known his location, even approximately, after the airliner took off from Seattle and climbed above the clouds into the night sky.  So when Cooper did jump, he had no way of determining what was below him until he was below the lowest cloud level in a pitch black night.

R99 7/11/19  The atmosphere at Portland at the time of Cooper's jump was approximately two percent more dense than the standard atmospheric model.  This is due to above standard sea level pressure and below standard temperature at both sea level and 10,000 feet.

 

$  9/16/19 Georger, You posted several weeks ago that you had "experts" working on the placard problem and that they would expose EU and myself as frauds.  Please hurry up and post their results.  I can't hold my breath much longer waiting for the shoe to drop.

 

12/1/19  Once the airliner climbed out of SEATAC and got above the clouds and overcast, there is absolutely no way that Cooper could have known his geographical location within 20 or 30 miles.  His obvious intent was to jump near Seattle shortly after take off but that didn't work out.  So Cooper was jumping blind and had no idea of the landscape or elevation of the terrain that was under him when he jumped.

 

$ 12/2/19   Hell yes! Do you understand that Cooper blowing up the airliner could result in the deaths of not just the flight crew but a lot of people on the ground from the falling debris?  This is probably the main reason that the flight crew would NEVER fly over the city of Portland when they could easily stay west of Portland and shorten their flight route by a few miles and a minute or two of time. Anyone who suggests that the flight path showing the airliner flying over Portland is correct doesn't understand what was happening!

 

$  12/4/19  Nicky, that simply won't fly.  Cooper couldn't see the ground in the first place, and you can't tell the wind direction by just dropping something out of an airplane.

 

$ 12/5/19   Basically, the problem with the Janet claim of flares is that they would be above an overcast and cloud layers as far as Janet was initially concerned and Cooper would not be able to see them when they went below the overcast

$ 12/7/19 This is just more silly nonsense from Georger.  Anyone interested in knowing what the flight crew could see or not see from 10,000 feet should take a look at the 8:00 PM weather sequence report for Portland International Airport.  Shutter has this report on this site.
Georger, here is some basic information for you.  Water runs downhill.  If Albert Einstein didn't say that then I did. 

12/9/19  overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that. It is highly unlikely that  ............  for any witness on the ground due to the multi layers of clouds in your model.  You, have virtually  ............  were factually expressing what they experienced, clouds and your layers-of-clouds notwithstanding ?    ............ !  The "glow" is not on the ground! It is in the clouds!  And water still runs downhill! For Georger's  ............ " is a single word.     reply>  

R99: 12/9/19 …THE GLOW IN THE CLOUDS IS ATTACHED TO CITIES ON THE GROIUND 0  ............  crew couldn't see the ground. And except for the clouds, they couldn't see the atmosphere either. This  ......

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by georger

[Math of Insects 98]

32 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't read it that way.. Thanksgiving day was when the FBI arrived..

He could have checked in the day before the hijacking and if he asked for a late wakeup call that may have been the 24th..

It could be unrelated and the wording is vague but why would the FBI take the registration card.. if it was Wednesday early evening, it wasn't Cooper..

"Asked me questions about my sign-in guest the night before."

It's unambiguous, IMO--the FBI arrived on Thanksgiving day to ask about the guest of the previous night.

[olemisscub 522]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Jo Weber claimed Duane used John C Collins,, but I couldn’t confirm that he actually did. Duane was not Cooper but Jo had access to documents and may have made up the John Collins name for Duane to fit this doc,, that was her MO..

 

My software indicates that she used the name "Collins" at some point during Duane's life. 

[olemisscub 522]

1 hour ago, Math of Insects said:

"Asked me questions about my sign-in guest the night before."

It's unambiguous, IMO--the FBI arrived on Thanksgiving day to ask about the guest of the previous night.

"wanted me to make as positive an ID as I could with the gentleman I had checked in the previous night"

Certainly seems like this event happened the evening of the 24th. I think Cooper would be a little busy at that time. I guess it's possible since this was written years later the person is confusing some events and their timeline is messed up. 

I suppose it would make sense for the FBI to canvas local hotels. However, they'd presumably be asking about people who checked in on the night of the 23rd.