DB Cooper

[Robert99 50]

1 hour ago, georger said:

'Radar wasn’t common until 1940 when the British were dealing with German air traffic over London. Before radar—which really didn’t make the ATC scene with great effect until the 1960s—controllers hovered over maps and plotted airliner progress as dispatchers phoned in position reports. Direct pilot-to-center radio communication wasn’t available until 1949.

Controllers tracked aircraft progress with small “shrimp boats” pushed across the map. Each represented an airplane and had a clip holding a slip of paper with the call sign and altitude. Shrimp boats would serve well into the radar age on flat-top radar displays. Before digital data tags, controllers wrote aircraft data on the plastic data tags and gently nudged them across the scope.'   https://www.avweb.com/recent-updates/business-military/atc-history/

 

99 why dont you write the difinitive history on the topic. 

Georger, both of the links that you have provided have big time problems.  The one above describes "shrimp boats" in the same manner as the RAF model.

You have described "shrimp boats" as being paper cards on something like a name plate fixture as in the last paragraph above.  These cards are actually shown in one of the links you provided.

In neither case is the location of the aircraft written on those cards.

Basically, the term "mark your shrimp boats" doesn't mean anything especially in the 1971 time frame.

If the hijacked airliner was tracking V-23, it could have provided its exact location to the Seattle Center in 10 seconds (I timed it).

[georger 244]

3 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, both of the links that you have provided have big time problems.  The one above describes "shrimp boats" in the same manner as the RAF model.

You have described "shrimp boats" as being paper cards on something like a name plate fixture as in the last paragraph above.  These cards are actually shown in one of the links you provided.

In neither case is the location of the aircraft written on those cards.

Basically, the term "mark your shrimp boats" doesn't mean anything especially in the 1971 time frame.

If the hijacked airliner was tracking V-23, it could have provided its exact location to the Seattle Center in 10 seconds (I timed it).

  ok    

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 510]

FBI responded positively to my FOIA about the hair slide's location and said they'd look for it again. It has a very clear evidentiary tag (PC-H3225), so maybe it somehow ended up in a pile of random miscellaneous evidence at the crime lab or something. Worth a shot. 

[Robert99 50]

11 hours ago, georger said:

  ok    

 

Georger, goggle "FAA Air Traffic Control History" and work your way to the appropriate section that defines and explains how "shrimp boats" were actually used in early air traffic control.  I'm sure you will learn something.

But "shrimp boats" were not used in 1971. 

[georger 244]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, goggle "FAA Air Traffic Control History" and work your way to the appropriate section that defines and explains how "shrimp boats" were actually used in early air traffic control.  I'm sure you will learn something.

But "shrimp boats" were not used in 1971. 

没人在乎！ Méi rén zàihū!

Do you understand now ?

Nobody cares, Robert. Your obsessions are not anyone's concern.

Edited May 23, 2023 by georger

[Robert99 50]

1 hour ago, georger said:

没人在乎！ Méi rén zàihū!

Do you understand now ?

Nobody cares, Robert. Your obsessions are not anyone's concern.

Georger, you are the one with the obsession.

[Andrade1812 51]

Maybe Macron can negotiate a peace treaty here...

[georger 244]

6 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

Maybe Macron can negotiate a peace treaty here...

No problem. Hope your insight on the Cooper case is better than this! Roberts problem is years old in case you had not noticed. Nothing I can do about it - I cant change the course of the Columbia River either. Just give it some space. He will stop when he gets tired or finds something/someone else to fixate on. Maybe I will post something to change the subject .... but I am tired of 99's harassment.

Sorry for the problem - beyond my control.  

Have you got any Cooper news to share ?  Been a long time.

Edited May 24, 2023 by georger

[georger 244]

Saw an important story on CNN tonight about coupling word text prediction to brain scans, using AI algorithms to predict people's unique speech/thought patterns as a function of brain function and personal identity - like a new type of finger printing! . It struck me a few people might try to use Cooper text to predict Cooper's unique brain scans, ....., leading to his personal identity using AI technology. I can see a History Channel program exploiting this technology. Someone may decide to take this seriously .....  someone like Colbert ?  https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/researchers-use-ai-to-decode-words-from-brain-scans-180982097/

Cooper said 'get the show on the road' etc.

For example: we could subject Ammerman to these tests to find out what he was actually thinking and knew as he conducted flight 305 along its flight!  As a clue to where Ammerman 'actually knows' where 305 was when Cooper bailed .........  the possibilities are endless.   We could get all kinds of people to submit to these tests to discover the truth of their claims. Jut typing words in a post or on Facebook could reveal one's brain function leading to truth! The possibilities boggle the mind. 

I would almost predict that someone will attempt to use AI to reformat the DB Cooper case to their advantage. Its just a matter of time. Maybe Flyjack will be first to 'mind print' his subject for criminology ? That would be a first.

Can you guess what the person below was thinking/saying to himself based on these scans ? Given his unique brainprint, who is he? Where is he on Earth right now?

Edited May 24, 2023 by georger

[Andrade1812 51]

On 5/23/2023 at 10:26 PM, georger said:

 

Have you got any Cooper news to share ?  Been a long time.

In February of last year I became a father fornthe first time, so I haven't had much time for Mr. Cooper

[georger 244]

Using AI to Fight and Investigate Crime / How Police Use AI

https://mindy-support.com/news-post/using-ai-to-fight-crime-how-police-use-ai/

Just the beginning. The ability of algorithms to process huge amounts of information and do massive amounts of comparative analysis quickly, offers analytical tools previously not available to researchers ... these new tools will make re-evaluation of old evidence in cold cases possible...

In addition to getting at new-better evidence in cold cases, people could quickly sort through the endless claims and theories some people attach to high profile cold cases . . .  that could save years and narrow the focus in some cold cases.

Edited May 26, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 510]

 

[georger 244]

Talked to three retired agents this afternoon who worked 20+ extortion,ransom, and bank robbery cases during their careers - where money was assembled or given by a bank in such cases. In none of these cases were paper bank straps ever involved. Groups of money were always prepared using rubber bands, usually in bundled amounts of $1-2k each. In every case either the banks or the FBI agents recorded the serial numbers of each bill. One of these agents worked on the Cooper case and he says the Cooper money was prepared by Sea First in rubber banded bundles, after recording the serial numbers. No paper straps were used on the Cooper money. He says that Mr. Grinnel was just a "young delivery boy" who never saw the money being prepared and was given a sealed bag and put in a car with two armed guards, and they sped to the airport to deliver the money bag to NWA official Al Lee in order to meet Cooper's deadline. Mr. Grinnel was merely handed a bag of money already prepared, and told to 'go with the guards ...' Grinnel never saw the money - period! Grinnel essentially says the same in his interview with CC. I dont know why anyone would be confused about this?

Why does any of this matter? It matters because we need a forensic starting point ( facts ie. how the money was configured) in order to test theories about how the money got to Tena Bar and how other money evidence is explained. It is the facts that matter vs. people's theories and 'opinions'. We cant even agree on what Grinnel's interview says !    

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 510]

Appreciate the leg work, but I again have to question you on this. Has any human being ever referred to rubber bands as “bank type bands”? 

[JAGdb 88]

If only Tina would clear this up .

Maybe she will if that movie ever gets made:

https://deadline.com/2021/11/nod-if-you-understand-amber-sealey-to-direct-thriller-on-db-cooper-hijacking-1234876249/

The title "Nod if you Understand"  is interesting. Did Cooper actually say that to her? Is that in the 302s or any of the known dialogue on record ?    

[olemisscub 510]

23 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

If only Tina would clear this up . 

She already has, unless you think a 22 year old girl from Philly would call rubber bands “bank type bands.”

 

[JAGdb 88]

17 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

She already has, unless you think a 22 year old girl from Philly would call rubber bands “bank type bands.”

 

I agree that probably 99 out of 100 people would use the word "rubber" to describe seeing rubber bands being used to bind a group of bills.

[georger 244]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Appreciate the leg work, but I again have to question you on this. Has any human being ever referred to rubber bands as “bank type bands”? 

I have no idea but, somebody could simply ask Tina and see what she says - what she meant. What is astounding is that no one has asked her what she meant by 'bank type bands' since 1972. Thats a little like failing to ask Einstein: "what does e=mc2 mean" ? Either she saw paper straps or she didn't, if thats what she meant by bank type bands!

'Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the  bundle of money to her. Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect.'

How was he able to reach in a pull out 'one package' or 'single bundle' out if the bundles were bank strapped together? Wouldnt he have to unstrap the bundles first ? 

Edited June 4, 2023 by georger

[georger 244]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

She already has, unless you think a 22 year old girl from Philly would call rubber bands “bank type bands.”

 

Why dont you call her and ask her!

I would in a second if I could!! I would have called her in ???????????????? 2008 ?  1972?

Part of the problem is she uses other words for the money, packages, bundles .... she has never used the word straps which requires paper bank straps.

BTW I do appreciate people responding to this! I wouldnt waste everyone's time if I didnt think there was an issue here - - -

Edited June 4, 2023 by georger

[Coopericane 44]

2 hours ago, JAGdb said:

If only Tina would clear this up .

Maybe she will if that movie ever gets made:

https://deadline.com/2021/11/nod-if-you-understand-amber-sealey-to-direct-thriller-on-db-cooper-hijacking-1234876249/

The title "Nod if you Understand"  is interesting. Did Cooper actually say that to her? Is that in the 302s or any of the known dialogue on record ?    

It doesn't seem to be in the 302s. As far as I can tell, the first use of the phrase in relation to NORJAK was the announcement of the movie's title. It might be older than that, though. I wonder if it's from a book or something. It sounds vaguely familiar to me, though I can't really say why.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Coopericane

[olemisscub 510]

36 minutes ago, georger said:

How was he able to reach in a pull out 'one package' or 'single bundle' out if the bundles were bank strapped together? Wouldnt he have to unstrap the bundles first ? 

It’s not really that complicated. According to Grinnell, who very clearly stated that he was in the bank vault when they counted the money and then placed it in the bag (I’ll take his word over hearsay since he was actually there), it was five paper strapped packets bundled together in bundles of $10,000. So there were 20 of these. You can very easily pull a packet out of a rubber banded bundle. I suspect he handed her one of the packets out of a bundle. 

[georger 244]

21 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

It’s not really that complicated. According to Grinnell, who very clearly stated that he was in the bank vault when they counted the money and then placed it in the bag (I’ll take his word over hearsay since he was actually there), it was five paper strapped packets bundled together in bundles of $10,000. So there were 20 of these. You can very easily pull a packet out of a rubber banded bundle. I suspect he handed her one of the packets out of a bundle. 

Since Tina never mentioned rubber bands once, a strict interpretation is: there were no rubber bands at all. The Ingrams made that up.

I dont know where you are getting the above from the Grinnel file I read. You must have a different file. The file I have says only: (maybe I was not given the whole file?)

Quoting:

Grinnel interview – how the money was packaged:

Portions of Interview verbatim.

WG: I was, you know, a kid, and my boss - and you’ll see where I’m going with this - was a retired FBI agent. He had been a high ranking FBI agent. I mean he’d been in Washington, uh, DC, and so forth.

…

He hangs up and he turns to me and says, “I want you to head to the cash vault. When you get there, we’ll have more information.” 

 

“Hey, you head over to the Seattle Police Department. You will be escorted by a couple police officers out to the airport. Bill, you’re going to be going with them, but I need you to go down to the cash vault.” Obviously, that’s where we kept all of our money. 

 

“We got to get money out to the airport. There’s something going on out there.”

 

WG: So, everybody’s scrambling for where they’re going to be. I’m down in the vault watching as they are counting all the cash. 

 

WG: Um, we’re calling my partner over at the police department…one of the things Cooper had demanded was, um, the money be packaged in currency bags and that no bills be new. He wanted all the bills to be older bills.

 

CC: Were you actually present when they gathered that money together? Did you get to see that happen…

 

WG: Yes.

 

WG: Well, so, my partner, he’s over at the police department. He gets together with a couple plainclothes detectives who are assigned by the top guy from the FBI calling the Seattle Police Department saying, “We need some help” “Well, what do you need?” “Plainsclothes, car.” Because Cooper demanded that “I don’t want to see any police cars” and the police department had cars that looked like any cars out on the street. So, they brought their car, and we end up using their car to get out to the airport. Prior to that, we’re still kind of scrambling to get the money. When that larger pack was set up, it was really believed that that would be used for a hostage that was taken from the bank. 

 

CC: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

 

. . .

 

WG: I believe, well, I know that when I got down there to take control of the money, that they had just completed what they called in those days a “microfiche” of the money. He had said no marked bills, but we had kind of “pre-thought” about that sort of an issue, so we were able…I mean when I went, like within three days of that robbery, we were able to and we did send out to all the SeaFirst branches and pretty much every bank in three or four counties of all the serial numbers of the money that had been taken.

 

CC: Right. They had recorded those. Like you said, they used microfiche so all the bills were recorded. So, let me ask you…the money itself, do you recall how the money was packaged? Was it strapped with paper currency straps? Was it rubber banded together? Or was it kind of both? Do you remember how the money was sort of organized and packaged?

 

WG: Well, I know that it was packaged, but I can’t say that it was done in anticipation of it. My feeling is that you gotta do something with it because you don’t want to hand him a block of money that they couldn’t comfortably open the package and take a look, but this is just based on other situations that I was in. We were able to…I was seeing it. I was watching it, but there were two or three others doing the same thing. 

 

CC: So, do you recall rubber bands on the money? Do you recall rubber bands on the money or it being rubber banded together or rubber banded into bundles? 

 

WG: When I saw it, it was already … I could tell that they were in what we called, um, straps. He wanted twenty dollar bills. Denominations for twenties are wrapped with money straps. 

 

CC: Right.

 

 

[WG never saw the money being packaged. He never saw the money in the bag. He does not know how the money was packaged. He says: “When I saw it, it was already (packaged)” He just assumes it had to be in straps, because: "Denominations for twenties are wrapped with money straps." 

 

WG: I could tell that they were in what we called, um, straps. He wanted twenty dollar bills. Denominations for twenties are wrapped with money straps. (Therefore the Cooper money had to be in straps)!

 

[olemisscub 510]

Tina didn’t need to mention rubber bands. Rubber bands are ubiquitous when it comes to holding money together. The paper straps stood out to her. How on earth can anyone interpret “bank type bands” to mean rubber bands?

[olemisscub 510]

30 minutes ago, georger said:

 

[WG never saw the money being packaged. He never saw the money in the bag. He does not know how the money was packaged. He says: “When I saw it, it was already (packaged)” He just assumes it had to be in straps, because: "Denominations for twenties are wrapped with money straps." 

 

WG: I could tell that they were in what we called, um, straps.

 

 

If he didn’t see the money (as you are claiming) then how could he tell they were in straps?

He’s not assuming anything. “I could tell”

[georger 244]

48 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

If he didn’t see the money (as you are claiming) then how could he tell they were in straps?

He’s not assuming anything. “I could tell”

 

48 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

If he didn’t see the money (as you are claiming) then how could he tell they were in straps?

He’s not assuming anything. “I could tell”

Simple. He answers that question by saying: 

“When I saw it, it was already (packaged)” "Denominations for twenties are wrapped with money straps." 

"I could tell that they were in what we call straps" ....... because ....... "the money bag was in my lap! And "Denominations for twenties (at a bank) are wrapped with money straps."

What he says is circular. He never answers the question. He never saw the money being prepared or in the bag. He arrived after the money had been packaged, and microfilmed, and he was presented with a sealed bag. That is what he says. He never answers CC directly! He continues and says  "Denominations for twenties (at a bank) are wrapped with money straps."

Therefore, the Cooper twenties must have been wrapped in straps!   

He is just assuming the Cooper twenties were wrapped with straps, like they are at a bank. The agents I spoke with today in all their years working hostage, ransom, and burglary cases say they never once saw a large payment given out by a bank with anything but rubber bands on the bundles of bills, (in cases involving hundreds of thousands even $400k in one case...)  

Grinnel never saw the money. He arrived after the money had already been prepared. He was presented with a bag to deliver. Beyond that he is conjecturing: the Cooper twenties must have been in straps because that is how twenties are kept at a bank - in straps! He avoids answering CC directly which is the same as not answering CC's question at all.   

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by georger