DB Cooper

[Chaucer 110]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, the above is simply not true.  You need to start citing facts and it would help if you made some effort to familiarize yourself with aeronautical matters.

First, you need to download the ARINC teletype transcripts relating to the hijacking for the period 3:07 PM PST till 8:20 PM PST that are available on Shutter's site, I think.  Anyway, they constitute eight printed pages.

With one single exception, these all originated with ARINC Seattle, and that exception is at 3:20 PM that originated from MSP.  It should also be noted that the messages at 7:34 PM and 8:24 PM do not refer to NWA 305 but to other NWA aircraft that were not involved in the hijacking.

What follows is a brief discussion of some points in the ARINC transcripts.

3:07 PM  -  The NWA 305 crew sent a message thru the ARINC system that they had taken off from Portland at 2:58 PM and that their ETA at Seattle was 3:26 PM.

3:13 PM  -  The crew sent another message thru the ARINC system that they were being hijacked.

3:20 PM  -  MSP sent a message to Seattle that the hijacker boarded in Portland.

8:12 PM  -  Crew reported oscillations in the cabin.  According to the Seattle ATC radio transcripts, NWA 305 reported that it was at 10,000 feet altitude.  This completely disproves some claims that Cooper jumped at 7,000 feet altitude.

8:20 PM  -  MSP tells SEA to tell NWA 305 to go to 131.8 and SEA replies that the airliner is already on that frequency.   The phone patch seems to have been established about this time.

The ARINC frequency in Seattle was 131.8.  There is no record of who was assigned the frequency of 131.9 but it was apparently a frequency for another ARINC ground station and probably one in the San Francisco area.

According to the ARINC transcripts, the airliner continued to transmit to the ARINC ground station even while it was on the ground at SEATAC and while transmitting on the NWA ground frequency and the SEATAC tower ground control frequency.

The NWA ground frequency at Seattle is never mentioned and would probably not be published.  It would only be used by NWA aircraft and the SEATAC tower personnel.

There is no indication of NWA having its own radio network, whatever that is supposed to be.

This is so ignorant of the facts. Not only are you totally wrong, about this, but you are too arrogant to see it.

This is from Soderlind's notes provided to the FBI. Look at the time stamp. It reads 8:22. Read that first sentence. "NWA communications frequency 131.9"

Keep trying, Robert. You'll figure it out eventually. 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Chaucer

[Chaucer 110]

19 minutes ago, georger said:

I talked to Pat twice, at length about all of this. I have reported multiple times what she said. Nobody cares.

Good luck with the money mystery. "bricks" "lumps" and "chunks".  Im tired of going around in circles forever.

 

I don't think it's going around in circles. It's the nature of research. There are stops and starts and sometimes you go in circles before you find the answer. 

And you are wrong about one thing: I are about your conversations with Pat.

[georger 244]

7 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

I don't think it's going around in circles. It's the nature of research. There are stops and starts and sometimes you go in circles before you find the answer. 

And you are wrong about one thing: I are about your conversations with Pat.

ok.

Edited September 14, 2023 by georger

[Robert99 50]

10 hours ago, Chaucer said:

This is so ignorant of the facts. Not only are you totally wrong, about this, but you are too arrogant to see it.

This is from Soderlind's notes provided to the FBI. Look at the time stamp. It reads 8:22. Read that first sentence. "NWA communications frequency 131.9"

Keep trying, Robert. You'll figure it out eventually. 

 

Chaucer, the "Lost communications on NWA communications frequency (131.9) . . . ." quote above is from the FBI Notes, not the ARINC teletype transcripts, and the agent who prepared those notes does not give a source for it.  But it or something similar probably originated from MSP.

As pointed out in my original post above, MSP had been informed in an 8:20 PM ARINC teletype message that the airliner was already on the 131.8 ARINC frequency.  And obviously the airliner had been on 131.8 or another ARINC frequency since the time of the hijacking in Portland based on the ARINC transcripts.

The assignment of communication frequencies is extremely regulated.  Do you have any conclusive evidence of who, if anyone, was assigned the 131.9 frequency on November 24, 1971?

[Robert99 50]

11 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Thanks for pointing this out to him. I’m sure he’s never seen those transcripts before. 

they’re on my website too. 
https://norjak.org/files/

I'm not sure if I have ever visited your site before but I have just done so.

The ARINC transcripts are obviously the same as the ones I was referring to.  I also took the liberty of download the other transcripts to complement my hard copies of those that were made back about 2010 courtesy of Sluggo.

[Chaucer 110]

30 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, the "Lost communications on NWA communications frequency (131.9) . . . ." quote above is from the FBI Notes, not the ARINC teletype transcripts, and the agent who prepared those notes does not give a source for it.  But it or something similar probably originated from MSP.

As pointed out in my original post above, MSP had been informed in an 8:20 PM ARINC teletype message that the airliner was already on the 131.8 ARINC frequency.  And obviously the airliner had been on 131.8 or another ARINC frequency since the time of the hijacking in Portland based on the ARINC transcripts.

The assignment of communication frequencies is extremely regulated.  Do you have any conclusive evidence of who, if anyone, was assigned the 131.9 frequency on November 24, 1971?

Wrong again, Robert.

Keep trying. I know you can do it. 

[Robert99 50]

27 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Wrong again, Robert.

Keep trying. I know you can do it. 

Chaucer, is English your first language?  Your post that I replied to was from the FBI Notes document that has been around since at least 2009 on Sluggo's site.  I said the FBI notes in my post.

Since you are reportedly now the manager of Shutter's site, which has links to Sluggo's site, I perhaps foolishly assumed that you know that.

To repeat a previous question, do you know who, if anyone, was assigned the 131.9 frequency on the date of the hijacking?

The 131.8 frequency can be documented as an ARINC frequency but where did 131.9 come from?

[Chaucer 110]

As stated in Paul Soderlind's notes that were provided to the FBI, frequency 131.9 was the NWA company frequency that Flight 305 communicated on until approximately 8:20 pm. Flight 305 lost comms on the company frequency and was thereafter connected on an ARINC phone patch on frequency 131.8. 

Because frequency 131.9 was an NWA company frequency, ARINC would not be providing teletype services. That would be done in-house in Minneapolis by NWA radio operators. I have spoken to several, and they have all confirmed this. 

Here, let me share it with you again, since you are having difficulty understanding.

At 8:22 =/- a three minutes, communications were lost on NWA communications frequency (131.9). Then a phone patch with ARINC in Seattle was established. Flight 305 did not communicate on an ARINC frequency until that phone patch at about 8:22. Again, these are Paul Soderlind's notes that he provided to the FBI. You can find these notes in FBI 66, p. 22.

Do you get it yet?

Edited September 14, 2023 by Chaucer

[Robert99 50]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

As stated in Paul Soderlind's notes that were provided to the FBI, frequency 131.9 was the NWA company frequency that Flight 305 communicated on until approximately 8:20 pm. Flight 305 lost comms on the company frequency and was thereafter connected on an ARINC phone patch on frequency 131.8. 

Because frequency 131.9 was an NWA company frequency, ARINC would not be providing teletype services. That would be done in-house in Minneapolis by NWA radio operators. I have spoken to several, and they have all confirmed this. 

Here, let me share it with you again, since you are having difficulty understanding.

At 8:22 =/- a three minutes, communications were lost on NWA communications frequency (131.9). Then a phone patch with ARINC in Seattle was established. Flight 305 did not communicate on an ARINC frequency until that phone patch at about 8:22. Again, these are Paul Soderlind's notes that he provided to the FBI. You can find these notes in FBI 66, p. 22.

Do you get it yet?

Chaucer, you simply don't get it.  I suggest you download the ARINC teletype print outs from the Olemiss website and take a look at the 3:20 PM PST entry.

Note that the last thing in the 3:20 PM entry is "MSPXR 2320CK".  The "MSP" stands for Minneapolis/St. Paul.  The "XR" probably identifies the NWA person or office that originated the message.  The "2320" is the GMT (3:20PM PST) that the message was sent.  What the "CK" stands for is not clear, but it appears at the end of all the messages with the exception of the two that are not related to the NWA 305 hijacking as explained previously.

NWA probably had a companywide teletype network in 1971, since it was very common for companies to have such networks.  But it is unlikely that such a network would be able to communicate directly with aircraft by radio especially since the ARINC network was established in 1929 by four aircraft companies.

NWA's company frequency at SEATAC may well have been 131.9 but this is not confirmed.  At 8:20 PM, the airliner was 125 nautical miles distant from SEATAC and well outside the range for direct communications with SEATAC for their 10,000-foot altitude.  They would have lost the ability for direct communications with an NWA radio facility at SEATAC by the time they were about 50 nautical miles from SEATAC.

So, the question of who, if anyone, was assigned the 131.9 frequency continues.

 

[Chaucer 110]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, you simply don't get it.  I suggest you download the ARINC teletype print outs from the Olemiss website and take a look at the 3:20 PM PST entry.

Note that the last thing in the 3:20 PM entry is "MSPXR 2320CK".  The "MSP" stands for Minneapolis/St. Paul.  The "XR" probably identifies the NWA person or office that originated the message.  The "2320" is the GMT (3:20PM PST) that the message was sent.  What the "CK" stands for is not clear, but it appears at the end of all the messages with the exception of the two that are not related to the NWA 305 hijacking as explained previously.

NWA probably had a companywide teletype network in 1971, since it was very common for companies to have such networks.  But it is unlikely that such a network would be able to communicate directly with aircraft by radio especially since the ARINC network was established in 1929 by four aircraft companies.

NWA's company frequency at SEATAC may well have been 131.9 but this is not confirmed.  At 8:20 PM, the airliner was 125 nautical miles distant from SEATAC and well outside the range for direct communications with SEATAC for their 10,000-foot altitude.  They would have lost the ability for direct communications with an NWA radio facility at SEATAC by the time they were about 50 nautical miles from SEATAC.

So, the question of who, if anyone, was assigned the 131.9 frequency continues.

 

You're starting to get it! Yay!

Yes, they did have a company wide teletype network along with a company radio network. Again, I've spoken with NWA radio operators from that time, and Paul Soderlind himself describes 131.9 as an "NWA company frequency". There is no mystery surrounding the frequency.

Regarding transmissions and distance, the network was a trunked system that used repeaters. That way a jetliner in Washington State could still communicate by radio to Flight Ops in Minneapolis. When Delta Airlines bought Northwest, their extensive radio network was a key part of that deal. 

Now, the question we should all be asking ourselves is:  why is the report of the pressure bump not included in the teletype?

[Chaucer 110]

I was planning on posting my new information re: SAGE radar and the construction of the flight path map today, but I was too busy helping R99 out, and now my team is on the boob tube. I'll post it tomorrow. 

[FLYJACK 699]

ARINC has many different assignments..

Circa December 1970..

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19710016444/downloads/19710016444.pdf

 

131.9 is an Air Carrier assignment...   that would be NWA.

131.8 is also Air Carrier..

 

 

 

 

 

[Robert99 50]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

ARINC has many different assignments..

Circa December 1970..

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19710016444/downloads/19710016444.pdf

 

131.9 is an Air Carrier assignment...   that would be NWA.

131.8 is also Air Carrier..

 

 

 

 

 

FlyJack, congratulations on finding this publication.  It relates to 1970 and I was not able to find it.

Note that the "Functions & Allocations Notes" for both frequencies 131.8 and 131.9 are allocated to "Air Carriers (ARINC)" and that the "Ground Station Assignments" for both frequencies were assigned to the FCC and not the FAA.

Frequency 131.8, which is a proven ARINC frequency, is listed as having 30 Ground Station Assignments and Frequency 131.9 is listed as having 44 Ground Station Assignments.

To me, the above suggests that Frequency 131.9 was also assigned to ARINC and probably used in the same manner as 131.8.  This would mean that it is not the NWA ground frequency at SEATAC.

[Robert99 50]

2 hours ago, Chaucer said:

You're starting to get it! Yay!

Yes, they did have a company wide teletype network along with a company radio network. Again, I've spoken with NWA radio operators from that time, and Paul Soderlind himself describes 131.9 as an "NWA company frequency". There is no mystery surrounding the frequency.

Regarding transmissions and distance, the network was a trunked system that used repeaters. That way a jetliner in Washington State could still communicate by radio to Flight Ops in Minneapolis. When Delta Airlines bought Northwest, their extensive radio network was a key part of that deal. 

Now, the question we should all be asking ourselves is:  why is the report of the pressure bump not included in the teletype?

Chaucer, if NWA had an extensive radio network that used repeaters to made direct voice calls between its aircraft and MSP, then why did it have to use a phone patch through ARINC to communicate with the hijacked aircraft? 

And why were the two NWA aircraft in the ARINC transcripts, that were not related to NWA 305, using the ARINC teletype system to make routine position reports to MSP?

The real question is why are there 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts?

[Chaucer 110]

23 hours ago, georger said:

 

post removed due to lack of interest

 

There's not a lack of interest, georger. I literally asked you to elaborate, and you refused. Come on...

Edited September 15, 2023 by Chaucer

[Chaucer 110]

15 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, if NWA had an extensive radio network that used repeaters to made direct voice calls between its aircraft and MSP, then why did it have to use a phone patch through ARINC to communicate with the hijacked aircraft? 

And why were the two NWA aircraft in the ARINC transcripts, that were not related to NWA 305, using the ARINC teletype system to make routine position reports to MSP?

The real question is why are there 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts?

Come on, Bob. You're better than that. You're a pilot. It wasn't a direct phone patch on 131.9. It was a VHF radio freak. You know as well as I do that Flight 305 would have lost VHF comms about 110 miles south of Seattle due to attenuation regardless of east-west repeaters. Possibly before.

I haven't even read the FAA manual and I know that. 

I have provided the unredacted teletype both here and on Shutter's site that show that there are no unusual communications pertaining to Flight 305. I will not provide them again. If you cared enough, you would have looked at them the first time. If you had, you'd know why two aircraft unrelated to 305 were included.

To your last question, you have provided no evidence that there are 19 redactions, and if there are, you have provided no evidence that those redactions are related to Flight 305. If you have such evidence, I would encourage you to post it. Otherwise, we will simply assume that they are figments of your overactive imagination and keep our laughter quiet and respectful. 

Either way, I am glad that I was able to help you understand the reality of the situation.

See, this is what happens when you make up your mind about something and stop doing research. You get complacent and lazy, and you get lapped by eager shitheads like me who are more motivated than you are. 

Next time, try to keep up. Don't be dead weight. 

[georger 244]

41 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

There's not a lack of interest, georger. I literally asked you to elaborate, and you refused. Come on...

well this will get buried in the ARINC discussion but ...

The number of bill surfaces which could have rubber bands stuck to them is a function of how the money was packaged. The Ingram money cannot have more bands stuck to bills than the packaging of the money allows! 

It crosses my mind to consider the probability of any of the 10,000 bills given Cooper, having a rubber band stuck to it. That opportunity is a direct function of how the money was packaged. Much less, the Ingrams finding one of those bills is a little rare. Because that probability is directly related to the architecture of how many bands were used given how the money was packaged.

We start with 10,000 $20 dollar bills packaged/grouped in some way. The photo attached shows two options.  The more bills you stack in a banded bundle, the lower the Probability that any bill surface will touch a rubber band. It may be remarkable that the Ingrams happened on groups of bills where any bill's surface was touching a rubber band. Now. if the Ingrams encountered more than one bill with bands stuck to its surface, that is not only carries a lower probability (P), and if three of their bills had stuck rubber bands .... that not only defies all ordinary odds it goes directly to how the Ingrams money was bundled/packaged!  No bill surface can interface with a rubber band unless the packaging allows that union to happen. 

Pat told me that 'there were stuck pieces of bands on more than one bill ... picking those pieces off took a lot of time... Harold's brother took on that job and sat with the bills at the kitchen table and worked and worked doing that ... '.  That statement goes directly to how the Ingram bills had to have been packaged. Keep in mind the FBI Lab found that the Ingram bills were in consecutive order just as delivered (and packaged) to Cooper.  

We start with 10,000 $20 bills. If packaged in smaller bundles say $2000 per bundle, then the total was 100 bundles. The chance of a bill surface having bands across it is 0.02%. Call that model 1 in the photo attached. If packaged as stacks of 5 bundles each, the probability of any bill surface touching a band goes down to a very low level (0.0008 %). 

If the money was packed as five bundles per banded package then you can see the Probability of any bill surface touching rubber bands goes waaaaaay down making it unlikely that the Ingram find could even supply two surfaces ( two bills) where bands were touching the bill surface. 

The number of bands the Ingrams found on their bills is directly a function of how the money had been packaged. It cant be anything else!   

Edited September 15, 2023 by georger

[Chaucer 110]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

ARINC has many different assignments..

Circa December 1970..

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19710016444/downloads/19710016444.pdf

 

131.9 is an Air Carrier assignment...   that would be NWA.

131.8 is also Air Carrier..

 

 

 

 

 

The "Eagle Line" was frequency 131.9 mHz that was used to connect jetliners with the NWA Flight Ops in Minneapolis. This is not in dispute. As I have stated, I have spoken with NWA radio operators, including the one above, to confirm this. NWA may have leased frequencies and equipment from ARINC but their radio network was independent. Clearly, in an emergency situation like NORJACK, common sense and decency held sway over corporate and proprietary matters. 

 

 

[Chaucer 110]

10 minutes ago, georger said:

well this will get buried in the ARINC discussion but ...

It crosses my mind to consider the probability of any of the 10,000 having a rubber band stuck to it. Much less the Ingrams finding one of those bills. That probability is directly related to the architecture of how many bands were used given how the money was packaged.

We start with 10,000 $20 dollar bills packaged/grouped in some way. The photo attached shows two options.  The more bills you stack in a banded bundle, the lower the Probability that any bill surface will touch a rubber band. It may be remarkable that the Ingrams happened on groups of bills where any bill's surface was touching a rubber band. Now. if the Ingrams encountered more than one bill with bands stuck to its surface, that is not only carries a lower probability (P), and if three of their bills had stuck rubber bands .... that not only defies all ordinary odds it goes directly to how the Ingrams money was bundled/packaged!  No bill surface can interface with a rubber band unless the packaging allows that union to happen. 

Pat told me that 'there were stuck pieces of bands on more than one bill ... picking those pieces off took a lot of time... Harold's brother took on that job and sat with the bills at the kitchen table and worked and worked doing that ... '.  That statement goes directly to how the Ingram bills had to have been packaged. Keep in mind the FBI Lab found that the Ingram bills were in consecutive order just as delivered (and packaged) to Cooper.  

We start with 10,000 $20 bills. If packaged in smaller bundles say $2000 per bundle, then the total was 100 bundles. The chance of a bill surface having bands across it is 0.02%. Call that model 1 in the photo attached. If packaged as stacks of 5 bundles each, the probability of any bill surface touching a band goes down to a very low level (0.0008 %). 

If the money was packed as five bundles per banded package then you can see the Probability of any bill surface touching rubber bands goes waaaaaay down making it unlikely that the Ingram find could even supply two surfaces ( two bills) where bands were touching the bill surface. 

The number of bands the Ingrams found on their bills is directly a function of how the money had been packaged. It cant be anything else!   

Are you referring to the surface of the bills or to the sides as well. The Ingrams would have encountered bills stacked and stuck to one another. Could they have been picking rubber bands from the sides of the bills clumped together?

[georger 244]

3 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Are you referring to the surface of the bills or to the sides as well. The Ingrams would have encountered bills stacked and stuck to one another. Could they have been picking rubber bands from the sides of the bills clumped together?

Surfaces of bills only .... sides of bills was never mentioned or brought up.  There wouldnt be much of a 'side' to work with. They found 3 groups of bills each group stuck or cemented (Kaye language) together. Read Kayes website....  

Edited September 15, 2023 by georger

[Chaucer 110]

Just now, georger said:

Surfaces of bills only .... sides of bills was never mentioned or brought up.

I only mention it because the Ingrams described the bills as "clumped together". I'm wondering if they would have been picking rubber bands off the sides of these clumps rather than the surface of the bills. 

[georger 244]

15 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

I only mention it because the Ingrams described the bills as "clumped together". I'm wondering if they would have been picking rubber bands off the sides of these clumps rather than the surface of the bills. 

Pat never mentioned clumps of anything.  BTW I asked Brian if he remembered anything about this, he didnt, he referred me to his mother...

The important point is: the number of bills surfaces that can have bands touching the bill surface at all ... is a direct function of how the bills are packaged. Thats just an immutable fact.

For the Ingram to have encountered any bill that had bands stuck to its surface, is remarkable at all!  The Probability plummets as more bundles are stacked on top of each other.  

Remember, part of the story is as pieces of band were pulled off, bill paper came with it in some cases.  That is surface of bills not sides of stacked bills.

Edited September 15, 2023 by georger

[Chaucer 110]

48 minutes ago, georger said:

Remember, part of the story is as pieces of band were pulled off, bill paper came with it in some cases.  That is surface of bills not sides of stacked bills.

This is from Tom's paper in Nature:

"The rubber bands were intact but crumbled off and the bills were badly deteriorated around the edges. The bundles were solid lumps that had to be separated professionally..." 

So, could the Ingrams have been referring to removing the rubber bands from these "solid lumps" rather than from the surface of individual bills?

Also, where does this anecdote about pieces of the bills coming off with the rubber bands originate?

Last, have you ever been able to confirm this:

"Three agents swear that when A2 and A3 were digging a trench about 2o yards south of the Ingram find, intending to go to a 3-4 foot depth, they had no more than brought the first shovel of material up and dumped it, than they saw a 'fist-sized clump of what looked like wadded up decomposed money, a ball of rotted bills', which they called everyone's attention to, and it was bagged to be sent off for analysis. (This is before Palmer had arrived). This suggests that perhaps some of the money which was at Tina Bar had fully decomposed, in contrast to the Ingram bills found higher up in elevation and in the upper active sand layers vs. other money which was perhaps at a lower depth and closer to the water line?"

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Chaucer

[georger 244]

29 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

This is from Tom's paper in Nature:

"The rubber bands were intact but crumbled off and the bills were badly deteriorated around the edges. The bundles were solid lumps that had to be separated professionally..." 

So, could the Ingrams have been referring to removing the rubber bands from these "solid lumps" rather than from the surface of individual bills?

Also, where does this anecdote about pieces of the bills coming off with the rubber bands originate?

Last, have you ever been able to confirm this:

"Three agents swear that when A2 and A3 were digging a trench about 2o yards south of the Ingram find, intending to go to a 3-4 foot depth, they had no more than brought the first shovel of material up and dumped it, than they saw a 'fist-sized clump of what looked like wadded up decomposed money, a ball of rotted bills', which they called everyone's attention to, and it was bagged to be sent off for analysis. (This is before Palmer had arrived). This suggests that perhaps some of the money which was at Tina Bar had fully decomposed, in contrast to the Ingram bills found higher up in elevation and in the upper active sand layers vs. other money which was perhaps at a lower depth and closer to the water line?"

 

Yes, Ive heard and read this story before about the fist sized clump. But I forget who or where it came from. I know Dorwin confirmed it years ago. As far as I understand Dorwin, he has always believed the Ingram find was simply part of a larger surviving deposit across an area at Tena Bar. That is where his comment to Smith about there being thousands of pieces/shards comes from. And I know Dorwin hasnt changed his mind about any of this. Many people have called him and tried to argue with him about it ... but Dorwin is a very conservative-introspective guy and I believe he would not come to the view he has without there being evidence for it. It was Dorwin who decided to approach the dig from an archaeologist's point of view, based on his background and personal interests.

It's too bad that fist sized clump and others like it werent saved.

Tosaw had a similar view and he bugged the hell out of Dorwin and H at Portland - so much they finally assigned someone to 'handle' all of Tosaw's calls.  But, Tosaw thought Cooper had dropped into the Columbia just south of Caterpillar Island. Based partly on the 'fist sized clump' story Tosaw hired guys to rototill a good part of Tena Bar.  There were witnesses who called the Portland office and gave reports - several humorous accounts but nothing was found or Tosaw would have called reporters immediately.

Pat told me directly that pieces of paper cane off when several pieces of the band were removed. They were concerned! They told the brother to stop at first. The whole point at the time was to clean the money up as best they could for presentation to a bank for redemption. The Cooper case wasn't even in their thoughts. They wondered if the money was a part of some burglary and Harold expressed that concern to others at his work who told Harold to call the Sherriff's office, which he finally did, but he was then told to call the FBI, which at length he did! The FBI asked him for serial numbers but didnt commit to anything. Hearing nothing Harold called the FBI back .... and suddenly he had an appointment with them - it was a shock! Had Harold not called back the FBI would have gone out and found him. 

I have no idea where Tom got his version of the Ingram money. I dont even know if Tom ever talked to Pat Ingram.  He talked to Brian multiple times but he said Brian didnt know anything. 

Go back and view the press conference photo of the Ingrams with H at the Portland office. That money spread out on the table and photographed is literally what the Ingrams presented the FBI in a sandwich bag, literally. You are seeing exactly what the Ingrams presented in the form they presented it in ......... brought in in a sandwich bag!  That minus four bills they held back as souvenirs,  until Crystal Ingram called H and arranged to bring in four more bills for the Ingrams!  So, in addition to the groups of bills shown in the press photo, the Ingrams had managed to separate four single bills which they kept for themselves until Crystal Ingram made H aware.

Its late.      

 

[Chaucer 110]

6 minutes ago, georger said:

Yes, Ive heard and read this story before about the fist sized clump. But I forget who or where it came from. I know Dorwin confirmed it years ago. As far as I understand Dorwin, he has always believed the Ingram find was simply part of a larger surviving deposit across an area at Tena Bar. That is where his comment to Smith about there being thousands of pieces/shards comes from. And I know Dorwin hasnt changed his mind about any of this. Many people have called him and tried to argue with him about it ... but Dorwin is a very conservative-introspective guy and I believe he would not come to the view he has without there being evidence for it. It was Dorwin who decided to approach the dig from an archaeologist's point of view, based on his background and personal interests.

It's too bad that fist sized clump and others like it werent saved.

Tosaw had a similar view and he bugged the hell out of Dorwin and H at Portland - so much they finally assigned someone to 'handle' all of Tosaw's calls.  But, Tosaw thought Cooper had dropped into the Columbia just south of Caterpillar Island. Based partly on the 'fist sized clump' story Tosaw hired guys to rototill a good part of Tena Bar.  There were witnesses who called the Portland office and gave reports - several humorous accounts but nothing was found or Tosaw would have called reporters immediately.

Pat told me directly that pieces of paper cane off when several pieces of the band were removed. They were concerned! They told the brother to stop at first. The whole point at the time was to clean the money up as best they could for presentation to a bank for redemption. The Cooper case wasn't even in their thoughts. They wondered if the money was a part of some burglary and Harold expressed that concern to others at his work who told Harold to call the Sherriff's office, which he finally did, but he was then told to call the FBI, which at length he did! The FBI asked him for serial numbers but didnt commit to anything. Hearing nothing Harold called the FBI back .... and suddenly he had an appointment with them - it was a shock! Had Harold not called back the FBI would have gone out and found him. 

I have no idea where Tom got his version of the Ingram money. I dont even know if Tom ever talked to Pat Ingram.  He talked to Brian multiple times but he said Brian didnt know anything. 

Go back and view the press conference photo of the Ingrams with H at the Portland office. That money spread out on the table and photographed is literally what the Ingrams presented the FBI in a sandwich bag, literally. You are seeing exactly what the Ingrams presented in the form they presented it in ......... brought in in a sandwich bag!  That minus four bills they held back as souvenirs,  until Crystal Ingram called H and arranged to bring in four more bills for the Ingrams!  So, in addition to the groups of bills shown in the press photo, the Ingrams had managed to separate four single bills which they kept for themselves until Crystal Ingram made H aware.

Its late.      

 

Good stuff, G. I don't see anything that contradicts what Grinnell said or what the Ingrams said. Maybe I am just not looking at it correctly. Seems perfectly plausible to me that Grinnell's description of the money and the Ingram's description of the money correspond. 

What am I missing?