DB Cooper

[olemisscub 510]

The Facebook Group is essentially the only place (aside from a few random things on the DZ) where actual Cooper research is being posted and discussed. 

[olemisscub 510]

11 hours ago, georger said:

Tina and others used different words for the money packages. Surely you know that. The fact is until Tina is asked directly what she saw, everyone is guessing.

I've yet to see an example of ransom money being delivered without paper straps. Detlor told me that paper straps were good because it allowed an extortionist to quickly and easily make an estimation of how much money they had been given. 

 

[georger 244]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I've yet to see an example of ransom money being delivered without paper straps. Detlor told me that paper straps were good because it allowed an extortionist to quickly and easily make an estimation of how much money they had been given. 

 

I am guessing that if paper straps had been part of the equation when Tom ran his rubber band-water tests on bills, he would have included tests using paper straps also. He didn't. My guess is Tom was operating under the assumption that rubber bands only bound the original money into bundles, given to Cooper.  Guessing is all we have in this affair.

I think its worth keeping in mind that paper straps and rubber bands could never have been long term restraints holding the money together against the forces of Nature. Some other factor contributes to the Ingram money being together to be found at all in 1980. Tom Kaye says the bands were, quote: "dollar bills still had intact rubber bands ..."

BTW, my involvement in this case was only supposed to last six months - colleagues remind me!   

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by georger

[Chaucer 110]

EU presented this map of his self-constructed flight path. He will be presenting the proposed flight path on his YouTube Channel on Wednesday.

 

Obviously, this silver bullet to this proposed flight path is the testimony of the person working the radar at PDX who said that Flight 305 was one to two miles EAST of the centerline of Victor 23 as it approached the airport. 

Also, I do not now how he will explain how Cooper drifted against the prevailing winds to land near Tena Bar.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Chaucer

[georger 244]

14 hours ago, Chaucer said:

EU presented this map of his self-constructed flight path. He will be presenting the proposed flight path on his YouTube Channel on Wednesday.

 

Obviously, this silver bullet to this proposed flight path is the testimony of the person working the radar at PDX who said that Flight 305 was one to two miles EAST of the centerline of Victor 23 as it approached the airport. 

Also, I do not now how he will explain how Cooper drifted against the prevailing winds to land near Tena Bar.

This is a memo from ASAC Paul Bibler ?  Who is ASAC Bibler?  Why is he involved in the flight path issue?  And why does this memo justify Ulis redrawing the whole flight path !?  Does this memo prove anything?  Did this memo cause anyone to alter the flight path in spite of others working on the flight path?  This memo is only "rumor" ?  

Why should anyone take this seriously?  

Edited September 18, 2023 by georger

[JAGdb 88]

19 hours ago, Chaucer said:

EU presented this map of his self-constructed flight path. He will be presenting the proposed flight path on his YouTube Channel on Wednesday.

 

Obviously, this silver bullet to this proposed flight path is the testimony of the person working the radar at PDX who said that Flight 305 was one to two miles EAST of the centerline of Victor 23 as it approached the airport. 

Also, I do not now how he will explain how Cooper drifted against the prevailing winds to land near Tena Bar.

Something about this isn't quite adding up to me.  Eric has been a proponent of the Western Flight Path, (I believe a slightly different version from R99).  One of Eric's main assertions is that the FBI/Air Force flight path is really the flight path of the F106 chase planes and that the actual flight path was ~10 miles to the west. 

So how does moving the flight path two miles to the east fit that ?  Is it a departure from his original theory ?  The blue line above doesn't seem to reflect the "two miles due east" as it approached the air port.  Guess we'll find out on Wednesday.

[Chaucer 110]

Hang on...I guess my post was not clear.

Eric's "new" flight path indicates that Flight 305 "doglegged" several miles to the west after Battle Ground. 

The FBI file that I posted utterly refutes that notion because the radar operator said Flight 305 was a couple miles east of the centerline of Victor 23.

Long story short:  Eric is wrong. 

 

[georger 244]

16 hours ago, Chaucer said:

Hang on...I guess my post was not clear.

Eric's "new" flight path indicates that Flight 305 "doglegged" several miles to the west after Battle Ground. 

The FBI file that I posted utterly refutes that notion because the radar operator said Flight 305 was a couple miles east of the centerline of Victor 23.

Long story short:  Eric is wrong. 

 

You seem to be in contact with Carr ?  Did Carr ever interview Patrician Ingram about the money find ?  I know he talked to her about rubber bands vs paper straps. What else did he ask her?  

Would Carr be willing to publish his interview of Pat Ingram?  

[whiskers 1]

The black bills. How did they get that way? Fingerprint dust, right? Silver nitrate.

Apparently not. 

See comments from Brian Ingram in the screenshots.

What could have caused the blackening of the bills in such a manner? Per Brian, they were darkest at the top and bottom of each packet, getting lighter towards the Center of the packet. And he describes how his mother was able to wash/lightened or restore them to ‘normal colour’, when put in bleach (after the fabric softener). That rules out being burned, or potential ash from the St Helen’s eruption, I’d think?

It seems Tom Kaye among others were unaware that the bills were found that way. 

[FLYJACK 699]

Both,, two sources for the black bills.

Buried bills can turn black in the right conditions due to damp and mold and Tom found silver nitrate which was used to test for prints..

Silver Nitrate was never mentioned in the files but was a common test method for prints..

So, SN got on the bills at some point...  unless they sprayed the ransom with SN before they gave it to Cooper then it would be from the fingerprint testing.

 

Four systems used to test the Cooper money for prints..  no prints found.

 

Buried money. BEP.

 

[Chaucer 110]

10 hours ago, georger said:

You seem to be in contact with Carr ?  Did Carr ever interview Patrician Ingram about the money find ?  I know he talked to her about rubber bands vs paper straps. What else did he ask her?  

Would Carr be willing to publish his interview of Pat Ingram?  

I don't know if Carr ever spoke with any of the Ingrams. I can ask. 

[whiskers 1]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Both,, two sources for the black bills.

Buried bills can turn black in the right conditions due to damp and mold and Tom found silver nitrate which was used to test for prints..

Silver Nitrate was never mentioned in the files but was a common test method for prints..

So, SN got on the bills at some point...  unless they sprayed the ransom with SN before they gave it to Cooper then it would be from the fingerprint testing.

 

Four systems used to test the Cooper money for prints..  no prints found.

 

Buried money. BEP.

 

Thanks. Was thinking at first it must be environmental, but the way Brian describes the bills getting cleaner when washed in bleach made me wonder if mould or some sort of fungi would just wash out, and if the bill would look ‘restored’ after. Maybe it would? 

To me, it sounds more like the bills were sprayed with SN before the money find. I guess the late Max Jarrell would have been the only person to confirm this? 

[georger 244]

6 hours ago, whiskers said:

The black bills. How did they get that way? Fingerprint dust, right? Silver nitrate.

Apparently not. 

See comments from Brian Ingram in the screenshots.

What could have caused the blackening of the bills in such a manner? Per Brian, they were darkest at the top and bottom of each packet, getting lighter towards the Center of the packet. And he describes how his mother was able to wash/lightened or restore them to ‘normal colour’, when put in bleach (after the fabric softener). That rules out being burned, or potential ash from the St Helen’s eruption, I’d think?

It seems Tom Kaye among others were unaware that the bills were found that way. 

wow - this is all new to me.  Someone told Tom the blackness was silver nitrate testing for prints by the FBI Lab -  that may have come from Carr? - Tom mentions that on his website.  So all of that (silver nitrate testing by FBI) is wrong ?   Wait a minute.....   those black bills lit up like Christmas for Ag under Tom's eds testing ???  Thats a strong indication for silver (Ag) .   There is no question about those black bills lighting up for Ag ........ thats no accident.  Tom couldnt understand why at first until Carr? told him it was the FBI's silver nitrate finger print testing.  Brian seems to have another story for print testing?  I hope he knows what he's talking about - has Brian ever talked to Tom about this ?  Has Tom seen these articles ?????   

This is all new so far as I know ?          ......... Pat mentioned fabric softer, bleach, and dish soap to me. I laughed when she said that because it was obvious they were really doing a cleaning job on that money!

Brian says there were bands on the top and bottom bills, of his 'bundles' his word? Here we go again.  How big were his 'bundles' if thats the correct word?  Is Brian saying there were six bills in his money with bands on them ?  

I have Toms eds work - have posted some of it before. That is Tom's personal proprietary work so I had to be careful what I posted... Tom didnt seem to object. No question that his black bill lit up like a roman candle for Ag ... that is where the silver nitrate saga in our lives began!  Truth is we were a little embarrassed we didnt make the connection quicker...

Its late...

I hope Tom has seen what has been posted here ? 

Congratulations to you guys!   wow!   I had no idea Brian had been interviewed about these technical details before...

Edited September 20, 2023 by georger

[JAGdb 88]

So, most likely, if the top and bottom bills were darkened prior to FBI testing for finger prints, it was mold right ?  Or could there have been trace silver in the bank bag from possibly holding silver coins in the past that rubbed off on the bills ?

Regardless, is there anything here that could be used to further the case ? 

If it was mold, what type of mold ?  Under what conditions does the mold form ? Does that tell us anything new about the story of the money ?

[FLYJACK 699]

7 hours ago, whiskers said:

Thanks. Was thinking at first it must be environmental, but the way Brian describes the bills getting cleaner when washed in bleach made me wonder if mould or some sort of fungi would just wash out, and if the bill would look ‘restored’ after. Maybe it would? 

To me, it sounds more like the bills were sprayed with SN before the money find. I guess the late Max Jarrell would have been the only person to confirm this? 

That was my initial thought,,, was the SN sprayed on the bills before Cooper got them.. I looked into it.

I found that bleach will remove a SN stain..  and SN has been sprayed on ransom money to mark it,,, it turns black due to light exposure.. and becomes useless.

but I think that the SN was most likely from a fingerprint process..

 

Buried bills do turn black in damp conditions..

I do recall Brian previously mentioned that there were blackened bills.. if you look at images of the money it is clear the bills are blackened from silver nitrate. It has a bluish tint..

It was definitely sprayed with SN.. Tom proved that.

 

“Ingram recalls how the bills were stuck together. Some pieces were larger than others. Others had darkened in color. “They still had rubber bands on them,” Ingram says. “I remember picking them up and the rubber band didn’t really break, but it kind of turned to powder. You could tell they hadn’t been touched.”

Fazio..
“Prior, though, in his air-conditioned office Al told me he saw a lot of shards of Cooper twenties in all kinds of shapes and sizes, discolored and black, and in various states of decomposition.”

 

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/1986/06/20/fairy-tale-ends-semisweetly-for-finder-of-jet-hijackers-loot/62722983007/

"While smoothing the sand, Brian, then 8, found $6,000 in three crumbling, blackened packets."

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Nicholas Broughton 69]

8 hours ago, georger said:

wow - this is all new to me.  Someone told Tom the blackness was silver nitrate testing for prints by the FBI Lab -  that may have come from Carr? - Tom mentions that on his website.  So all of that (silver nitrate testing by FBI) is wrong ?   Wait a minute.....   those black bills lit up like Christmas for Ag under Tom's eds testing ???  Thats a strong indication for silver (Ag) .   There is no question about those black bills lighting up for Ag ........ thats no accident.  Tom couldnt understand why at first until Carr? told him it was the FBI's silver nitrate finger print testing.  Brian seems to have another story for print testing?  I hope he knows what he's talking about - has Brian ever talked to Tom about this ?  Has Tom seen these articles ?????   

This is all new so far as I know ?          ......... Pat mentioned fabric softer, bleach, and dish soap to me. I laughed when she said that because it was obvious they were really doing a cleaning job on that money!

Brian says there were bands on the top and bottom bills, of his 'bundles' his word? Here we go again.  How big were his 'bundles' if thats the correct word?  Is Brian saying there were six bills in his money with bands on them ?  

I have Toms eds work - have posted some of it before. That is Tom's personal proprietary work so I had to be careful what I posted... Tom didnt seem to object. No question that his black bill lit up like a roman candle for Ag ... that is where the silver nitrate saga in our lives began!  Truth is we were a little embarrassed we didnt make the connection quicker...

Its late...

I hope Tom has seen what has been posted here ? 

Congratulations to you guys!   wow!   I had no idea Brian had been interviewed about these technical details before...

After a suggestion from an old FBI guy to Larry Carr that they used silver nitrate as fingerprint detection in the 70's they considered the mystery solved. It would of been nice if they gave the guy who’s initial were on ever bill a call (Max Jarrell) and just confirmed that he sprayed some of the bills with silver nitrate. I count six here in this photo, so was it the bottom and top bill of the three packets he tested, that would make sense. But when Tom tested the black bill. There were no rubber band marks, he looked for them on the bills.

[georger 244]

5 hours ago, JAGdb said:

So, most likely, if the top and bottom bills were darkened prior to FBI testing for finger prints, it was mold right ?  Or could there have been trace silver in the bank bag from possibly holding silver coins in the past that rubbed off on the bills ?

Regardless, is there anything here that could be used to further the case ? 

If it was mold, what type of mold ?  Under what conditions does the mold form ? Does that tell us anything new about the story of the money ?

somebody chase Kaye down for answers to all of these questions!

Tom had been looking for particles of Ag on the money due to the Washougal theory - Washougal silver bearing region. Then the whole bill lit up with Ag in eds tests. Something was going on ...................   somebody told Tom about silver nitrate testing ........................ Gray was probing to find out what was going on and contacted me ................. I didnt know what to say so said something about possibly 'two types of silver' and Gray went nuts with that!  ...............................

I never did know the full story. But Gray was complicating everything for Tom trying to get a 'scoop' on the money news ..............

silver nitrate testing by the FBI became the favored explanation for why some bills were black  ... I dont know what further testing Tom did ?  I backed out because of Gray to give Tom privacy and room to deal with Gray's intrusions....

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by georger

[Nicholas Broughton 69]

14 minutes ago, georger said:

somebody chase Kaye down for answers to all of these questions!

Tom had been looking for particles of Ag on the money due to the Washougal theory - Washougal silver bearing region. Then the whole bill lit up with Ag in eds tests. Something was going on ...................   somebody told Tom about silver nitrate testing ........................ Gray was probing to find out what was going on and contacted me ................. I didnt know what to say so said something about possibly 'two types of silver' and Gray went nuts with that!  ...............................

I never did know the full story. But Gray was complicating everything for Tom trying to get a 'scoop' on the money news ..............

silver nitrate testing by the FBI became the favored explanation for why some bills were black  ... I dont know what further testing Tom did ?  I backed out because of Gray to give Tom room to deal with Gray's intrusions....

 

Here was TK’s response on the fb group last night.  

[georger 244]

12 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Here was TK’s response on the fb group last night.  

The Washougal is a metamorphic area where silver mining occurred for generations vs. the region further north including Tena Bar which is sedimentary. We thought if the money had spent time in the Washougal it might have picked up silver grains. Finding those Ag grains between the bills would have basically proved the money spent time in the Washougal basin/river. The Washougal River has a higher density of silver, copper, and gold particles vs the Columbia. The FBI Lab documented only Columbia river sand between the bills vs any Washougal type geology.

The silver nitrate method usually sprays the item in question vs soaking it. A covered shielded vent hood is employed because the substance is poisonous. Early astronomers used silver nitrate to coat metal and glass optics and quickly learned the substance was toxic and dangerous! Silver nitrate reacts with the salts (chlorides) in body sweat and finger prints . Most crime labs still have strict protocols for handling silver nitrate ...

There is an FBI information bulletin on silver nitrate testing, likewise this:    https://knowledge.carolina.com/discipline/interdisciplinary/development-of-latent-fingerprints-with-silver-nitrate/

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by georger

[georger 244]

Lets get this over with.       Information from Brian Ingram was posted, as quoted below.   Brian refers to three packets and three bundles, as the same thing. So even Mr Ingram uses two different words for the same thing.  He describes his found money as: black bills were what would have been on top and the bottom of each bundle ... and ... but there was evidence of rubber bands on the top and bottom bills of each three packets.

From this it is clear Brian's found money does not fit the new proposed model FJ, OleMiss, and Chaucer have been pushing. Brian's money consisted of three bundles each bundle wrapped in rubber bands. That is the architecture previously suggested. Brian's comments posted are as follow -

Doc1

Brian Ingram reply to Joe Halliday:

    The black bills were what would have been on top and the bottom of each bundle, yes, they were black when I found them.    As far as the dark line, its hard for me to tell from the picture, but there was evidence of rubber bands on the top and bottom bills of each three packets.

Each piece even fragments were inspected and dusted for fingerprints, they were done by an agent by the name of Max Jarrell. That’s (the) MJ initial on all of the bills and  small pieces. Max passed two years ago due to Covid. He and his wife Roni became close friends with my family and I had the opportunity to ask him questions, and one of the questions “was each bill inspected for fingerprints and Max said yes, extensively.”

 

Doc 2

Brian Ingram to Joe Halliday:    The bills were stuck together, so my mother soaked one of them in fabric softener, which allowed them to come apart into individual bills. Then when separating them the bill became less dark as you got closer to the middle. The picture only shows three, but there were  But there were several dark ones. She then took a couple of the less of darker bills and put them in bleach water solution for a few minutes, that brought it back to the original color. No Joe keep in mind. This is all done a few days prior to us, finding out the historical value of the find.

 

 

[Chaucer 110]

The FBI documents along statements by Tina indicate that the money was wrapped with paper currency straps. Mr. Grinnell has also indicated the money was wrapped with currency straps and rubber bands. The money was found with rubber bands and no paper straps. The FBI said that money was found on Tena Bar the same way it was delivered to Cooper. Tom Kaye has indicated the same thing. Paper lasts for a very short period of time exposed to the environment (2 to 5 months)

There's no alternative model for the packaging.  The packets of 100 bills were wrapped in currency straps and then rubber banded together into a bundle. The only question, in my mind, is how many packets were rubber banded together. 

Grinnell and his wife (a retired Sea-First bank teller) both said that standard was five packets to a bundle. Grinnell could not say with certainty if that's how the Cooper money was packaged. He did say it was a "scramble" and its possible the packets were rubber banded differently than normal.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Chaucer

[FLYJACK 699]

10 hours ago, georger said:

Lets get this over with.       Information from Brian Ingram was posted, as quoted below.   Brian refers to three packets and three bundles, as the same thing. So even Mr Ingram uses two different words for the same thing.  He describes his found money as: black bills were what would have been on top and the bottom of each bundle ... and ... but there was evidence of rubber bands on the top and bottom bills of each three packets.

From this it is clear Brian's found money does not fit the new proposed model FJ, OleMiss, and Chaucer have been pushing. Brian's money consisted of three bundles each bundle wrapped in rubber bands. That is the architecture previously suggested. Brian's comments posted are as follow -

Doc1

Brian Ingram reply to Joe Halliday:

    The black bills were what would have been on top and the bottom of each bundle, yes, they were black when I found them.    As far as the dark line, its hard for me to tell from the picture, but there was evidence of rubber bands on the top and bottom bills of each three packets.

Each piece even fragments were inspected and dusted for fingerprints, they were done by an agent by the name of Max Jarrell. That’s (the) MJ initial on all of the bills and  small pieces. Max passed two years ago due to Covid. He and his wife Roni became close friends with my family and I had the opportunity to ask him questions, and one of the questions “was each bill inspected for fingerprints and Max said yes, extensively.”

The term bundle is informal, packet, pack, flat or strap are banking terms for a grouping of 100 bills.. Bundle is a general term for a group,, packet means 100 bills.

Brian has used the term packet before.. bundle isn't necessarily wrong, it is just less accurate and informal.

It doesn't really matter if the packets were bound paper or rubber or both. I have told you this before. The point is the packets were rubber banded in bundles when given to Cooper.. Brian has never before specifically said all three individual packets had rubber bands each.. His statements were always vague...

Brian's recall about the rubber bands is likely incorrect. Tosaw said one packet had no rubber bands. He was heavily involved with Brian and the money at the time.

The evidence indicates paper straps.

Himmelsbach said straps. The bank guy said straps.. Tina,, etc..

Could some packets have paper and rubber bands, maybe, but irrelevant.

The rubber bands were not "intact" as described, that sounds like an exaggeration. The size of the bills was less than 50%, the rubber bands could not be attached to over 50% of the missing bill area.. Brian also said many times the rubber bands crumbled or turned to dust when touched/picked up. There is no way the rubber bands were fully intact around all three packets.

The short bundle could not have had rubber bands on the top.

 

Think this through... forget about paper vs rubber bands for now..

Money was given to Cooper in packets of 100 bills..  =$2000 per packet.

"Bundles" were randomized in count and rubber banded. To look hastily prepared.

3 packets of $2000 were found on TBAR (one was a little short).

The FBI stated the money was in the same order and packaging as given to Cooper.

The FBI had the order of the bills from the micro.

The FBI said the TBAR money was from one bundle.

 

So, if the "bundles" were randomized in count, it wasn't the packets of 100 that were randomized and rubber banded, it had to be the bundles of packets that was randomized in count. Normally they are in 5 packets per bundle.

This is what Carr got wrong before, he stated that each of the 3 "bundles" found on TBAR were randomized in count and therefor rubber banded. He conflated the terms bundles with packets. It could not have been the packets, it had to be the bundles of packets. 

The packets were 100 bills each in $2000, not randomized in count, and the bundles of packets were randomized and rubber banded, 3, 4 or 5 packets per bundle.

 

That is the take away, paper vs rubber banded packets is largely irrelevant.

The money arrived on TBAR as one rubber banded bundle of several packets.. likely 3 packets, but maybe more.

 

How do you get "intact" rubber bands that turned to dust around all 3 heavily eroded packets including a short one. There is less than 50% of the surface area left, top and bottom. 

 

The conventional thinking was that the money arrived on TBAR as 3 separate packets... and the means by which it could arrive like that is very limited.  This is very unlikely based on the evidence. It most likely arrived as one rubber banded bundle...  that is what the evidence indicates regardless of Brian's memory.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 110]

To be clear, Grinnell never said the money was intended to look "hastily prepared". He said different denominations were set aside in a safe inside the main vault. Those packets were stored in currency bags. In preparing the Cooper money, those $2000 packets were taken from the bags and packaged in some manner. 

Not sure where the notion that they were intentionally made to look "hastily prepared". According to Grinnell, the entire scene was a "scramble", so it is more likely there were actually "hastily prepared". 

[FLYJACK 699]

43 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

To be clear, Grinnell never said the money was intended to look "hastily prepared". He said different denominations were set aside in a safe inside the main vault. Those packets were stored in currency bags. In preparing the Cooper money, those $2000 packets were taken from the bags and packaged in some manner. 

Not sure where the notion that they were intentionally made to look "hastily prepared". According to Grinnell, the entire scene was a "scramble", so it is more likely there were actually "hastily prepared". 

Made random and to look hastily prepared came from agent Baker and later from Carr..

[georger 244]

Suggest everyone hold on to their point of view, pending further evidence - which could be someone actually asking Tina what she saw ? Better late than never.