DB Cooper

[olemisscub 525]

1 hour ago, Andrade1812 said:

First one, then the other...

I really struggle with the concept of Cooper, or any parajacker, deciding to jump over such a huge light footprint. I understand that Vancouver was not the major city it is today, but from my conversations with Jim McClellan (pilot of the "mystery light aircraft"), you could see the glow of Vancouver/Portland in the distance through the clouds once you got to the Battle Ground area. So the light footprint was pretty significant. 

We can't talk to Cooper, but we can talk to McNally. I believe that Cooper, like Mac, was winging his drop zone. When you ask Mac about why he jumped where he did he'll say that he didn't want to jump somewhere too populated, for obvious reasons, but did want to jump somewhere that he knew there was at least some civilization beneath him. It's not exactly apples to apples since Mac jumped on a clear night.

Nevertheless, I've adapted Mac's thinking to try and make sense of Cooper's DZ. North of Lewis River would have just been sheer darkness beneath him. He'd surely know that was legit wilderness beneath him. But once he got to Woodland/La Center/BG, he'd start to see the glow of some lights beneath him but not too much. Unless he was truly nuts he certainly wouldn't want to jump directly over the combined lights of Vancouver/Portland. Additionally, he had to know that it was Portland coming up given the time they'd been in the air and direction they were going, which means that he also knew that the Columbia River was down there somewhere. So there's another reason why you don't jump over Vancouver/Portland. 

All of that is why I don't think that he landed as a no-pull or under a deployed canopy that far south. However, I do think there is a possibility that the money bag ended up in Marine Park. I've got a theory for that, but that's perhaps for another day. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by olemisscub

[georger 256]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

I really struggle with the concept of Cooper, or any parajacker, deciding to jump over such a huge light footprint. I understand that Vancouver was not the major city it is today, but from my conversations with Jim McClellan (pilot of the "mystery light aircraft"), you could see the glow of Vancouver/Portland in the distance through the clouds once you got to the Battle Ground area. So the light footprint was pretty significant. 

We can't talk to Cooper, but we can talk to McNally. I believe that Cooper, like Mac, was winging his drop zone. When you ask Mac about why he jumped where he did he'll say that he didn't want to jump somewhere too populated, for obvious reasons, but did want to jump somewhere that he knew there was at least some civilization beneath him. It's not exactly apples to apples since Mac jumped on a clear night.

Nevertheless, I've adapted Mac's thinking to try and make sense of Cooper's DZ. North of Lewis River would have just been sheer darkness beneath him. He'd surely know that was legit wilderness beneath him. But once he got to Woodland/La Center/BG, he'd start to see the glow of some lights beneath him but not too much. Unless he was truly nuts he certainly wouldn't want to jump directly over the combined lights of Vancouver/Portland. Additionally, he had to know that it was Portland coming up given the time they'd been in the air and direction they were going, which means that he also knew that the Columbia River was down there somewhere. So there's another reason why you don't jump over Vancouver/Portland. 

All of that is why I don't think that he landed as a no-pull or under a deployed canopy that far south. However, I do think there is a possibility that the money bag ended up in Marine Park. I've got a theory for that, but that's perhaps for another day. 

I believe there is a logic that works through the Cooper case. One event requires other events to occur, logically. The money at TBar requires that the money landed first, in its bag, and made its way (with Cooper) to the area of the Columbia. Since Cooper has the money and is in control of the money bag, in order for money to appear elsewhere later, Cooper must land also.  Cooper and the bag landed together intact. The money bag and Cooper are together and must move toward the Columbia together in order for money to ever wind up at Tena Bar. At some point Cooper loses control of the money and now Nature is in control of the money (bag). All of this is logically (mathematically) required - connected . . . at some point money winds up on Tena Bar probably due to natural events (natural availability) and some human intervention which could be dredging . . . those are the 'bounded'  logical connectives.  

Very simply: in order for money to be found at Tena Bar, the money and Cooper must have landed safely first. Its as simple as that! Those bounded logical connectives.

What are bounded harmonic functions?

(A function f : Zd → R is said to be bounded if there exist M ∈ R such that for each x ∈ Zd, |f(x)| < M.) Zd is said to have the strong Liouville property if every positive harmonic function is a constant function. (A function f : Zd → R is said to be positive if for each x ∈ Zd, f(x) > 0.)   by TJ Kaczynski · 1969

Edited October 31, 2023 by georger

[Robert99 53]

1 hour ago, georger said:

I believe there is a logic that works through the Cooper case. One event requires other events to occur, logically. The money at TBar requires that the money landed first, in its bag, and made its way (with Cooper) to the area of the Columbia. Since Cooper has the money and is in control of the money bag, in order for money to appear elsewhere later, Cooper must land also.  Cooper and the bag landed together intact. The money bag and Cooper are together and must move toward the Columbia together in order for money to ever wind up at Tena Bar. At some point Cooper loses control of the money and now Nature is in control of the money (bag). All of this is logically (mathematically) required - connected . . . at some point money winds up on Tena Bar probably due to natural events (natural availability) and some human intervention which could be dredging . . . those are the 'bounded'  logical connectives.  

Very simply: in order for money to be found at Tena Bar, the money and Cooper must have landed safely first. Its as simple as that! Those bounded logical connectives.

What are bounded harmonic functions?

(A function f : Zd → R is said to be bounded if there exist M ∈ R such that for each x ∈ Zd, |f(x)| < M.) Zd is said to have the strong Liouville property if every positive harmonic function is a constant function. (A function f : Zd → R is said to be positive if for each x ∈ Zd, f(x) > 0.)   by TJ Kaczynski · 1969

Georger, please post the equation for Cooper being a no-pull and the money making its way to Tena Bar by purely natural means.  Or at least give it a try. Heh-heh.

[georger 256]

12 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, please post the equation for Cooper being a no-pull and the money making its way to Tena Bar by purely natural means.  Or at least give it a try. Heh-heh.

OK. Will look into it as soon as the bar closes -  You ?

Edited November 1, 2023 by georger

[Robert99 53]

18 minutes ago, georger said:

It took no effort at all to know you would reply as you do.

You excel at endless, empty, stupidity. You even revel in idiocy..  Thanks for the compliment!

Georger, your sick attempts to bolster your ego are obvious to all.

[georger 256]

5 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, your sick attempts to bolster your ego are obvious to all.

Oh. Try changing your smoke detector battery ?<

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by georger

[Andrade1812 51]

6 hours ago, Slim King said:

All professional investigators agree the money at TBar was planted....

Name them all

[FLYJACK 740]

9 hours ago, Slim King said:

All professional investigators agree the money at TBar was planted....

That is exactly what a FED would say..

[FLYJACK 740]

21 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I really struggle with the concept of Cooper, or any parajacker, deciding to jump over such a huge light footprint. I understand that Vancouver was not the major city it is today, but from my conversations with Jim McClellan (pilot of the "mystery light aircraft"), you could see the glow of Vancouver/Portland in the distance through the clouds once you got to the Battle Ground area. So the light footprint was pretty significant. 

We can't talk to Cooper, but we can talk to McNally. I believe that Cooper, like Mac, was winging his drop zone. When you ask Mac about why he jumped where he did he'll say that he didn't want to jump somewhere too populated, for obvious reasons, but did want to jump somewhere that he knew there was at least some civilization beneath him. It's not exactly apples to apples since Mac jumped on a clear night.

Nevertheless, I've adapted Mac's thinking to try and make sense of Cooper's DZ. North of Lewis River would have just been sheer darkness beneath him. He'd surely know that was legit wilderness beneath him. But once he got to Woodland/La Center/BG, he'd start to see the glow of some lights beneath him but not too much. Unless he was truly nuts he certainly wouldn't want to jump directly over the combined lights of Vancouver/Portland. Additionally, he had to know that it was Portland coming up given the time they'd been in the air and direction they were going, which means that he also knew that the Columbia River was down there somewhere. So there's another reason why you don't jump over Vancouver/Portland. 

All of that is why I don't think that he landed as a no-pull or under a deployed canopy that far south. However, I do think there is a possibility that the money bag ended up in Marine Park. I've got a theory for that, but that's perhaps for another day. 

This is my take as well...  

A no pull, less than 1%, if he pulls 95% survival..

For Cooper to pull and land at Marine Park he would have had to jump over/close to Portland Airport..  not reasonable. I believe the evidence suggests an LZ roughly Battleground and North.

but, I have a theory that puts the money into the water, in Spring in the Columbia River right across from Marine Park. No Cooper didn't land there. No, TBAR will never be solved.

 

[olemisscub 525]

15 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

but, I have a theory that puts the money into the water, in Spring in the Columbia River right across from Marine Park. 

I'll give mine if you give yours...

[FLYJACK 740]

8 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I'll give mine if you give yours...

I think I know yours...

Mine is far more comprehensive and would take a-lot of time to lay out all the evidence.

That said, it can't be proven.

[olemisscub 525]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

I think I know yours...

Hmmm, I doubt I've shared it with you. Can you provide a keyword that might indicate  a clue about it?

[FLYJACK 740]

18 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Hmmm, I doubt I've shared it with you. Can you provide a keyword that might indicate  a clue about it?

Key word is......

 

Taxi

[olemisscub 525]

17 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Key word is......

 

Taxi

That's one theory of mine, but I have another one that explains how the money ended up in Marine Park whilst Cooper did not. 

[FLYJACK 740]

12 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

That's one theory of mine, but I have another one that explains how the money ended up in Marine Park whilst Cooper did not. 

A second theory from behind the grassy knoll...

When did the money arrive at Marine Park? The problem with the money sitting out in the elements before going onto the River is that it/bands would deteriorate and not be able to make the water journey to TBAR.

My theory has the money out of the elements until it entered the River in Spring.

Hey, where is FBI file part 88??

Edited November 1, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 525]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

When did the money arrive at Marine Park? The problem with the money sitting out in the elements before going onto the River is that it/bands would deteriorate and not be able to make the water journey to TBAR.

Would they deteriorate if they were still wrapped inside the bag for several months?

As for Vault 88, no idea. Maybe we'll be treated to another 100 pages of blank documents from someone's address book. I have to admit, I'm a little excited to see our first Subject File, which should be in an upcoming vault release. We've not seen those yet. For those who don't know, we've only seen incoming and outgoing documents, very few, if any, internal investigative documents within the Seattle Office. It's my understanding from talking with Larry that a good bit of the stuff in the Subject Files are internal memos that weren't ever sent out. 

[Chaucer 110]

Regarding Marine Park, I have been researching a more southerly jump for some time. I was hoping to present my findings publicly at Cooper Con this year, but plans changed. I'll find another, more appropriate venue, to present them - likely a YouTube video. 

All of that said, I won't post all of my evidence here because it would be a lengthy unwieldy post and, frankly, the written word is not the best way to present it.

What I will say is that I believe Cooper jumped over the Vancouver as the aircraft approached the Columbia River. Whether he survived is irrelevant to this particular theory. Either he deployed his chute and lost the money ala Martin McNally or no-pulled and went in with the money. Who's to say?

Nevertheless, my feeling is that the money ended up not in the river that night, but in the flood plain of Vancouver along the river bank. It had to have arrived in a location that would hide it for at least 7 months and in a location that would be prone to flooding. I think that location was an area that is now known as Marine Park. In 1971, it was known by various names including "Portco" which was the name of a company near by. 

 

This area is directly under the flight path. It is within the flood plain. It is also within the 8:05 to 8:15 time range provided by the crew. 

Here is another article dated June 10th, 1971 indicating that this area was virtually a swamp with little built up around it. 

Interestingly, here is an article dated June 2 1972. Not only can you see the very bad flooding at Marine Park, but it also shows significant flooding at Lower River Road were Tena Bar is located. 

At the time of the hijacking, this was a wooded, brushy, wetlands area that was flanked by the abandoned shipyards on the west and a dump on the east. In 1971, construction on what would become Marine Park had only just begun, and at the time of the hijacking was only a place to launch boats and for high school kids to party at night. 

I hypothesize that the money bag came down in this location, was picked up by flood waters - likely in 1972, but could be later - and transported via river debris to Tena Bar where some of the money spilled out and was buried by flood sediment while the rest continued downstream. Can I prove any of this? No, but it does fit all of the constraints place upon it by the diatoms.

I'm not an absolutist, so I won't say this is exactly where the money and/or Cooper ended up, but I think this location makes the most sense if the jump occurred where I think it did. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Chaucer

[Chaucer 110]

I don't know why it posted the article twice. I tried to delete it but it's not working. Oh, well. 

[FLYJACK 740]

11 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Would they deteriorate if they were still wrapped inside the bag for several months?

As for Vault 88, no idea. Maybe we'll be treated to another 100 pages of blank documents from someone's address book. I have to admit, I'm a little excited to see our first Subject File, which should be in an upcoming vault release. We've not seen those yet. For those who don't know, we've only seen incoming and outgoing documents, very few, if any, internal investigative documents within the Seattle Office. It's my understanding from talking with Larry that a good bit of the stuff in the Subject Files are internal memos that weren't ever sent out. 

I don't think the money/bands would retain enough integrity out in the PNW elements for 5+ months to make a water journey to TBAR basically as an intact bundle of packets. Even in a bank bag.

It is a big ask..

https://citizensleuths.com/rubber-band-analysis.html

[Chaucer 110]

The two enemies of rubber bands are UV light and oxygen. In a tightly packed and wrapped bank bag, both of these things would be limited. Nicky, Whiskers, myself, and a few others conducted an experiment and demonstrated that in a shaded, low oxygen environment rubber bands could survive intact for several months. 

Bill Grinnell, the gentleman who took the money from the bank to the airport, told me that he has rubber bands in his drawer from banks that shut down 40 years ago. 

[FLYJACK 740]

19 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

The two enemies of rubber bands are UV light and oxygen. In a tightly packed and wrapped bank bag, both of these things would be limited. Nicky, Whiskers, myself, and a few others conducted an experiment and demonstrated that in a shaded, low oxygen environment rubber bands could survive intact for several months. 

Bill Grinnell, the gentleman who took the money from the bank to the airport, told me that he has rubber bands in his drawer from banks that shut down 40 years ago. 

Sure, unused rubber bands in a drawer can last..  try using one, they break much easier.

PNW in winter is very wet...  wet also means bacteria, the paper bands would be gone quickly, weeks or a month.

But, rubber bands lose their integrity when stretched over time, maybe they don't break within 5 months but they would be weakened..

I just think that a fresh bundle would have a far better chance of making that water journey to TBAR...

I can't imagine a rubber banded money bundle maintaining enough of its integrity for 5+ months in a swamp to make a tumbling journey along the River bottom to TBAR virtually intact. Maybe, it is possible under the right circumstances, but it seems unlikely.

[FLYJACK 740]

Likewise, my theory isn't well explained here in this format..

But, it fits these constraints..

 

The "FBI" flightpath is accurate.

Cooper jumps roughly Battleground or N.

Cooper doesn't have to have survived but most likely did.

The money, all or some is stored out of the elements in or out of the money bag or some container.

In Spring 1972, on a specific date the money enters the River near the Airport, not intentionally.

The condition of the TBAR money supports this event.

The TBAR money find spot is below the water level at that time.

The money goes in the River as a "fresh" single rubber banded bundle of packets, sinks and is pushed along the bottom to the TBAR find spot.

There is some unsubstantiated supporting information in the FBI files.

This theory has the potential to identify individuals who may be related to the event/location.

 

As other TBAR theories,, no way to prove it.

 

[georger 256]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Likewise, my theory isn't well explained here in this format..

But, it fits these constraints..

 

The "FBI" flightpath is accurate.

Cooper jumps roughly Battleground or N.

Cooper doesn't have to have survived but most likely did.

The money, all or some is stored out of the elements in or out of the money bag or some container.

In Spring 1972, on a specific date the money enters the River near the Airport, not intentionally.

The condition of the TBAR money supports this event.

The TBAR money find spot is below the water level at that time.

The money goes in the River as a "fresh" single rubber banded bundle of packets, sinks and is pushed along the bottom to the TBAR find spot.

There is some unsubstantiated supporting information in the FBI files.

This theory has the potential to identify individuals who may be related to the event/location.

 

As other TBAR theories,, no way to prove it.

 

pushed along the bottom to the TBAR find spot.

That has been a popular theory or claim first propagated by FBI agents themselves. The theory is offered in the original Transcript Kaye and I were given but of course it is pure speculation. 'A group or groups of money bound with rubber bands is pushed or tumbles along the bottom some distance then tumbles or is pushed up on Tena Bar' still intact with rubber bands undisturbed and still viable ? ? '

What is missing is the destructive forces involved in such a scenario ... bundles tumbling, spinning, rolling ?  Whatever words you chose.

The bills and bands would not survive such forces. The money was never tumbled along the bottom some distance. Thats impossible. The groups would never stay intact, for one thing.

The idea/image of bundles tumbled along the bottom like logs may be appealing to the senses, but it defies physics. 

I am astounded at the lengths people will go to avoid the dredging theory. Likewise nobody wants to look at the found money itself and explain the abrasions, cuts, and other physical evidence .... keep in mind the money is wet during any Columbia scenario. The money must be buried and hidden from view once it winds up on the beach.  The money cant dig its own self and bury itself!  After rolling and dancing along the bottom ... for miles! 

The money explanation must be part of the real world. Not some cartoon . 

And let's add one more stipulation to keep R99 happy:  the money must roll DOWN HILL THE WHOLE WAY! 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 740]

50 minutes ago, georger said:

pushed along the bottom to the TBAR find spot.

That has been a popular theory or claim first propagated by FBI agents themselves. The theory is offered in the original Transcript Kaye and I were given but of course it is pure speculation. 'A group or groups of money bound with rubber bands is pushed or tumbles along the bottom some distance then tumbles or is pushed up on Tena Bar' still intact with rubber bands undisturbed and still viable ? ? '

What is missing is the destructive forces involved in such a scenario ... bundles tumbling, spinning, rolling ?  Whatever words you chose.

The bills and bands would not survive such forces. The money was never tumbled along the bottom some distance. Thats impossible. The groups would never stay intact, for one thing.

The idea/image of bundles tumbled along the bottom like logs may be appealing to the senses, but it defies physics. 

I am astounded at the lengths people will go to avoid the dredging theory. Likewise nobody wants to look at the found money itself and explain the abrasions, cuts, and other physical evidence .... keep in mind the money is wet during any Columbia scenario. The money must be buried and hidden from view once it winds up on the beach.  The money cant dig its own self and bury itself!  After rolling and dancing along the bottom ... for miles! 

The money explanation must be part of the real world. Not some cartoon . 

 

Still flogging the dredge theory,,, it isn't 2011...

FBI file 88 is up.....  some will find it others maybe not

Edited November 1, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 53]

39 minutes ago, georger said:

pushed along the bottom to the TBAR find spot.

That has been a popular theory or claim first propagated by FBI agents themselves. The theory is offered in the original Transcript Kaye and I were given but of course it is pure speculation. 'A group or groups of money bound with rubber bands is pushed or tumbles along the bottom some distance then tumbles or is pushed up on Tena Bar' still intact with rubber bands undisturbed and still viable ? ? '

What is missing is the destructive forces involved in such a scenario ... bundles tumbling, spinning, rolling ?  Whatever words you chose.

The bills and bands would not survive such forces. The money was never tumbled along the bottom some distance. Thats impossible. The groups would never stay intact, for one thing.

The idea/image of bundles tumbled along the bottom like logs may be appealing to the senses, but it defies physics. 

I am astounded at the lengths people will go to avoid the dredging theory. Likewise nobody wants to look at the found money itself and explain the abrasions, cuts, and other physical evidence .... keep in mind the money is wet during any Columbia scenario. The money must be buried and hidden from view once it winds up on the beach.  The money cant dig its own self and bury itself!  After rolling and dancing along the bottom ... for miles! 

The money explanation must be part of the real world. Not some cartoon . 

And let's add one more stipulation to keep R99 happy:  the money must roll DOWN HILL THE WHOLE WAY! 

 

At least Georger is beginning to understand one point.  If the money or money bag enters the Columbia east of the point where the river it will sink (per TK's experiment using real money) to the bottom of the river and stay there.

Also, when the river makes the turn to the north, the money bag moving along the bottom of the river is going to end up at the bottom of the 40-deep shipping channel and it will stay there.

There is no natural process that will move the money uphill from the bottom of the shipping channel to several feet above the shoreline at Tena Bar.

Hopefully, Georger will continue to try to understand the General Energy Equation.