DB Cooper

[olemisscub 525]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Tosaw is very reliable,,, but not 100%

He said Tina grabbed that second matchbook from the cabinet..  that would be the Skychef one,,  When Cooper's matchbook, the ICS was empty. That means Cooper did not bring the Skychef matches with him.

It makes sense.

Ever since I spotted that I've not been sure what to make of that incongruence. It would certainly make sense that they would have matches stored somewhere on the plane for passengers. However, Cooper ran out of the ICS matches rather quickly. He had less than half a book left when he boarded the plane. As a smoker he surely would have had another book with him. 

Tina's 302 says "she indicated that he had another book of matches". So I dunno...

[olemisscub 525]

6 minutes ago, Cola said:

 

What do you think the likelihood of any confirmation of that to come from future 302's. 

 

Larry told me that the handwritten notes from the crew interviews in Reno still exist. I suspect we'll see those eventually and maybe it'll be written in there. 

[Cola 52]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Tosaw is very reliable,,, but not 100%

He said Tina grabbed that second matchbook from the cabinet..

I should look up the exact wording so forgive me but Tina attributes two matchbooks as coming from Coop. She only ever identifies skycheif.

[FLYJACK 740]

13 minutes ago, Cola said:

I should look up the exact wording so forgive me but Tina attributes two matchbooks as coming from Coop. She only ever identifies skycheif.

 

Welcome to the Vortex, you can think but you can never believe..

Even the FBI files have errors...  they are not conclusions, they are investigative notes.

Interviews are not always accurate either... an agent takes notes then it gets typed up later... She confirms two matchbooks.. 

 

The Vortex is full of these things...

Edited January 18, 2024 by FLYJACK

[Cola 52]

10 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Welcome to the Vortex, you can think but you can never believe..

Even the FBI files have errors...  they are not conclusions, they are investigative notes.

Interviews are not always accurate either... an agent takes notes then it gets typed up later... She confirms two matchbooks.. 

 

The Vortex is full of these things...

 

It's logical, but its hard for me to digest Tosaw's claim that Tina grabbed the skychef matches and this detail slipped past the agency, even the ICS matches got by them if true....

Do you think Tina affirmed her statements in the final interview memos? There must have been some point where an Agent sat down with her over the next few years while showing her photos and as a mater of procedure reviewed the November and December interviews with her for accuracy...!

Not seen this in the 302's, possibly one of the teletypes that were flying around is an affirmation of a review of the interviews by Tina.??? 

Maybe those details just weren't important enough.

 

 

[olemisscub 525]

11 minutes ago, Cola said:

 

It's logical, but its hard for me to digest Tosaw's claim that Tina grabbed the skychef matches and this detail slipped past the agency, even the ICS matches got by them if true....

Do you think Tina affirmed her statements in the final interview memos? There must have been some point where an Agent sat down with her over the next few years while showing her photos and as a mater of procedure reviewed the November and December interviews with her for accuracy...!

Not seen this in the 302's, possibly one of the teletypes that were flying around is an affirmation of a review of the interviews by Tina.??? 

Maybe those details just weren't important enough.

 

 

As I indicated in my YouTube video last night, it's become my belief lately, from reviewing the files and from talking extensively to two of the original case agents from 71, that the FBI thought they were going to catch this guy rather quickly. They did their jobs well, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if they thought those details were of no consequence. The ICS matches in particular were extremely ubiquitous. I'm struggling to think of a modern equivalent but those matchbooks were apparently everywhere back in those days. It likely wouldn't have been seen as a lead. 

Edited January 18, 2024 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 740]

7 minutes ago, Cola said:

 

It's logical, but its hard for me to digest Tosaw's claim that Tina grabbed the skychef matches and this detail slipped past the agency, even the ICS matches got by them if true....

Do you think Tina affirmed her statements in the final interview memos? There must have been some point where an Agent sat down with her over the next few years while showing her photos and as a mater of procedure reviewed the November and December interviews with her for accuracy...!

Not seen this in the 302's, possibly one of the teletypes that were flying around is an affirmation of a review of the interviews by Tina.??? 

Maybe those details just weren't important enough.

 

 

Yeah,, it is what it is... The 302 may not be complete or accurate, she did say there was a second matchbook that fits but no description of the second cover.. Witness 302's are not facts, they have errors and omissions.

On the other side, Tosaw did interview Tina and Rataczak,, both kept in contact.

Nothing is certain..  but the ICS cover would have to have been completely fabricated and those aren't typically the type of errors in books...

[Cola 52]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

The ICS matches in particular were extremely ubiquitous

Maybe its cut and dry- just the utility of matches..

I try to restrain form psychoanalysis in here, but I can't help think that it is the action of Cooper taking theses matches, of him possessing these matches that may be of some significance.

I smoked for years.  I know that matches aggregate, they pair with locations. ICS may pair with a gas station, a dive bar but they  would not pair with a country club.

I wonder if there is a demographic overlap of individuals whom would select ICS matches and smoke Raleigh's.

Difficult thoughts. The wishful thoughts are that the ICS matches, if true, indicate someone within proximity to Coops was a dropout,  because coops was no dope..!

 

[olemisscub 525]

9 minutes ago, Cola said:

Maybe its cut and dry- just the utility of matches..

I try to restrain form psychoanalysis in here, but I can't help think that it is the action of Cooper taking theses matches, of him possessing these matches that may be of some significance.

I smoked for years.  I know that matches aggregate, they pair with locations. ICS may pair with a gas station, a dive bar but they  would not pair with a country club.

I wonder if there is a demographic overlap of individuals whom would select ICS matches and smoke Raleigh's.

Difficult thoughts. The wishful thoughts are that the ICS matches, if true, indicate someone within proximity to Coops was a dropout,  because coops was no dope..!

 

The ICS matches were used as advertisements, so they were just everywhere. Thrown in gas stations, laying on tables at airports, etc. I'm not sure how old you are and so maybe you don't remember this, but think of them as those AOL CD-ROM's. They were so common that there was no point in trying to trace them.

[FLYJACK 740]

11 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

The ICS matches were used as advertisements, so they were just everywhere. Thrown in gas stations, laying on tables at airports, etc. I'm not sure how old you are and so maybe you don't remember this, but think of them as those AOL CD-ROM's. They were so common that there was no point in trying to trace them.

Exactly,,

another thing is the empty matchbook Cooper retrieved and taken had notes in it..

Cooper took it because it had writing like the notes not because of prints.

Cooper didn't care about prints. IMO, he had obfuscated his prints.

 

[Cola 52]

43 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

but think of them as those AOL CD-ROM's.

I got ya, but I think your assigning way to much ubiquity to ICS matches.

ICS in no way could flood a market like AOL, a fortune 50 company. In 1971 its like saying Ford vs. ICS, those two advertising budgets do not comport.

I believe there are limits and conditions on where these ICS matchbooks can exist. I don't know what we can get from him having ICS matches, but I'd like to think that there is a way that these fit into the mosaic of who Cooper was...

The agency deduced Coops may have eaten at the airport because he possessed skychef matches.

My most optimistic fit on ICS, if true, is that Coops was within proximity of a dropout.

Or maybe this is just Rataczak taking a character jab at Coops....

 

 

Edited January 18, 2024 by Cola

[olemisscub 525]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Exactly,,

another thing is the empty matchbook Cooper retrieved and taken had notes in it..

Cooper took it because it had writing like the notes not because of prints.

 

 

Being that Tina has never made any comment ever about ferrying notes to the cockpit, I've been of the belief that this is Farrell brainfarting a bit and misinterpreting Rat's 302. If you'll look at Rat's 302, he has a paragraph where he talks about the notes being returned to Cooper and in the same paragraph comments on the match book. His 302 even uses this same phraseology, calling it a "match cover". Would be easy to see how that statement could be misinterpreted. In a search of the files, the only time "match cover" comes up is in Rat's 302 and Farrell's report. I don't think that's a coincidence. 

 

[FLYJACK 740]

2 minutes ago, Cola said:

I got ya, but I think your assigning way to much ubiquity to ICS matches.

ICS in no way could flood a market like AOL, a fortune 50 company. In 1971 its like saying Ford vs. ICS, those two advertising budgets do not comport.

I believe there are limits and conditions on where these ICS matchbooks can exist. I don't know what can we get from him having ICS matches but I'd like to think that there is a way these fit into the mosaic of who Cooper was...

The agency deduced Coops may have eaten at the airport because he possessed skychef matches.

My most optimistic fit on ICS, if true, is that Coops was within proximity of a dropout.

Or maybe this is just Rataczak taking a character jab at Coops....

 

 

 

The advertising subsidized the matches, so they were cheap/free where cigarettes were bought... stores or machines.. they were headquartered in PA but available everywhere. They were just cheap/free, ubiquitous and tell us nothing about Cooper. The advertising subject is irrelevant.

[olemisscub 525]

13 minutes ago, Cola said:

 

I believe there are limits and conditions on where these ICS matchbooks can exist. I don't know what we can get from him having ICS matches, but I'd like to think that there is a way that these fit into the mosaic of who Cooper was...

 

I attempted to do that with Vordahl when I was looking for any circumstantial evidence with him. I was able to find where, a week before the hijacking, there was an ICS graduation event for Hydroelectric Engineers that was like 3 miles from his house. Vordahl's town only had like 300 people in it and he was alderman, and also a huge nerd, so I postulated that a giant nerd like him wouldn't have missed a gathering of other nerds so close to his home. Additionally, those are the sort of events that alderman types would attend. 

That was really just throwing crap against the wall though, I don't think the matches can really help find a suspect. 

I think the only use for the matches as a tool is for an offensive weapon against the dummies who claim Cooper was "fake smoking." I point out that when he boarded the plane that the majority of the matches were already gone from the ICS matchbook, indicating that he had been using it for his cigarettes for some time beforehand. Thus, he wasn't just "stage smoking". 

[FLYJACK 740]

12 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Being that Tina has never made any comment ever about ferrying notes to the cockpit, I've been of the belief that this is Farrell brainfarting a bit and misinterpreting Rat's 302. If you'll look at Rat's 302, he has a paragraph where he talks about the notes being returned to Cooper and in the same paragraph comments on the match book. His 302 even uses this same phraseology, calling it a "match cover". Would be easy to see how that statement could be misinterpreted. In a search of the files, the only time "match cover" comes up is in Rat's 302 and Farrell's report. I don't think that's a coincidence. 

 

I lean toward it being legit...  why would Cooper take an empty matchbook?

The reason given by most was for the fingerprints.. but that makes no sense, he left other items that would have had prints, he offered money that would have prints, his ticket, the glass, the tie, the plane, the chute, the card..  it makes no sense for him to want the empty matchbook for the prints and not the other things. So, what other reason would there be,,,  Writing, he took back things with writing, notes.

Edited January 18, 2024 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 525]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I lean toward it being legit...  why would Cooper take an empty matchbook?

The reason given by most was for the fingerprints.. but that makes no sense, he left other items that would have had prints, he offered money that would have prints, his ticket, the glass, the tie, the plane, the chute, the card..  it makes no sense for him to want the empty matchbook for the prints and not the other things. So, what other reason would there be,,,  Writing, he took back things with writing. 

But Tina says it was recovered from where she had discarded it: in the seat pocket. That's pretty specific, so it was never in the cockpit. 

I see it as one of two things: He just wanted to leave literally no trace whatsoever of himself on the plane (nothing to do with fingerprints...as you say, he didn't seem to care about his prints) OR it did have something written on it, perhaps a phone number, etc. 

Edited January 18, 2024 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 740]

13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

But Tina says it was recovered from where she had discarded it: in the seat pocket. That's pretty specific, so it was never in the cockpit. 

I see it as one of two things: He just wanted to leave literally no trace whatsoever of himself on the plane (nothing to do with fingerprints...as you say, he didn't seem to care about his prints) OR it did have something written on it, perhaps a phone number, etc. 

It didn't have to go to the cockpit to have something written on it..

Most Comms were via Tina and the interphone...  

If he didn't retrieve it for the prints then why? I can't think of any reason..

Edited January 18, 2024 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 525]

9 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It didn't have to go to the cockpit to have something written on it..

Most Comms were via Tina and the interphone...  

If he didn't retrieve it for the prints then why?

But we're talking about Farrell's statement specifically. He says it was used to convey notes. I believe that to be a mistake. 

Again, I think it possibly had something written on it from an earlier time. I think he just wanted everything he brought on board with him to leave with him out of an abundance of caution. I mean, there was nothing at all written on the envelope by Cooper, just by Flo, and yet he still wanted that envelope back. He must have been pretty pissed when he realized he left his tie. 

Edited January 18, 2024 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 740]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

But we're talking about Farrell's statement specifically. He says it was used to convey notes. I believe that to me a mistake. 

Again, I think it possibly had something written on it from an earlier time. I think he just wanted everything he brought on board with him to leave with him out of an abundance of caution. I mean, there was nothing at all written on the envelope by Cooper, just by Flo, and yet he still wanted that envelope back. He must have been pretty pissed when he realized he left his tie. 

That doesn't make sense... he left the cig butts...  

and we don't know if he even cared about the tie or not. 

So, if it wasn't for the prints then why?? Writing is the only reason.

 

[olemisscub 525]

8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That doesn't make sense... he left the cig butts...  

and we don't know if he even cared about the tie or not. 

So, if it wasn't for the prints then why?? Writing is the only reason.

 

But why did he want the envelope back? He didn't write on it. 

[Cola 52]

28 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I don't think the matches can really help find a suspect. 

I agree 100%, no one is going to tug at the matches and unravel anything. Never the less, the matches, if true, are part of the mosaic of who Cooper was. When Cooper is identified, I'd like to believe there was an explanation as to how they fit in.

I'm sure the Gunther folks would love it one day if a Cooper proxy is found and one of his two kids happens to be a high-school drop out...!

[FLYJACK 740]

47 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

But why did he want the envelope back? He didn't write on it. 

Flo wrote his demands on a plain envelope,, I assume it was his..  though they don't make that clear I can't imagine another plain envelope appearing then.

Edited January 18, 2024 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 740]

19 minutes ago, Cola said:

I agree 100%, no one is going to tug at the matches and unravel anything. Never the less, the matches, if true, are part of the mosaic of who Cooper was. When Cooper is identified, I'd like to believe there was an explanation as to how they fit in.

I'm sure the Gunther folks would love it one day if a Cooper proxy is found and one of his two kids happens to be a high-school drop out...!

There is no connection to the subject matter advertised on the matchbook,, it is random.. many companies advertised that way.

Edited January 18, 2024 by FLYJACK

[Cola 52]

53 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

think the only use for the matches as a tool is for an offensive weapon against the dummies who claim Cooper was "fake smoking."

"fake smoking".. hahahahaha...

You should start passing out ciggs and calling bluffs on that thinking.

 

[georger 256]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Flo wrote his demands on a plain envelope,, I assume it was his..  though they don't make that clear I can't imagine another plain envelope appearing then.

Isn't the envelope the same envelope he delivered his note to Flo in? She still had it and used it to write down his demands ... ?