DB Cooper

[dudeman17 340]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

They were Cossey's fronts.. 

He made the dummy chute and Emrich didn't even know it was a dummy that he sent so how could he describe it.

Unless that is definitively documented I don't buy it. Emrich owns the dz and the jump school. (He is a jumper and instructor, right?) He owns all the student gear and training aids. He knows that dummy reserve drunk, in the dark, and half asleep. Sure, Cossey put the dummy together, and he maintains the student gear and packs the reserves, because he's the rigger. But it's Emrich's stuff and he would know it cold.

[FLYJACK 707]

1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

Unless that is definitively documented I don't buy it. Emrich owns the dz and the jump school. (He is a jumper and instructor, right?) He owns all the student gear and training aids. He knows that dummy reserve drunk, in the dark, and half asleep. Sure, Cossey put the dummy together, and he maintains the student gear and packs the reserves, because he's the rigger. But it's Emrich's stuff and he would know it cold.

The FBI docs refer to the fronts as Cossey's.. he made them, he knows them. 

Since Emrich sent the dummy in error how could he describe that rig (know it drunk).. makes no sense.

That description likely came from Cossey. Also, in the same doc "flat circular" is used to describe Hayden's chute,, that is Cossey's, Hayden never used that.

 

Cossey was initially contacted and asked for two fronts and two backs, he agreed to lend all 4 from Issaquah but didn't know what they were being used for.

Edited December 23, 2024 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 707]

As vigorous as you've been arguing about it, then it sure seems like you cared about it as evidence. 
Your misunderstanding isn’t my responsibility.

That chest chute description not mentioning that one was a dummy leads MORE credence to Emrich being the supplier. Again, I'm not even sure why this particular issue is still being discussed. The person WRITING the document says that at 6am "We've been trying to contact Cossey all night." So we're to believe that the guy writing the document somehow doesn't know about this lengthy six page document that was just sent off to the FBI director that has a detailed "Cossey" description in it? These guys were all on the same floor of the Seattle Office and were working together on this. That's a silly notion to continue thinking that this chest chute description came from Cossey. 
No it doesn’t, Cossey would have learned of the Dummy some time on the 25th.. 
You are now claiming to know who, how and when the FBI contacted people. Unlikely Emrich would have that info and the other chute description “flat circular” was likely from Cossey, Hayden never mentioned it and it is inconstant with the packing card.
 

Fruit of the poisonous tree. I don't care what Cossey says in statements from 2003 or 2008. He's saying he was contacted by the FBI that night as PART of his bullshit story that he sent his own chutes from his house, THUS, him saying they contacted him while the hijacking was still occurring is almost certainly bullshit too. 
Cherry picking,, selecting your own time frame.. Everything Cossey said is suspect not just after 2003. Everything needs corroboration and analysis. 
 

And there is NOTHING in the documents that proves that Santa Claus wasn't on the plane that night either. Nothing in the documents that proves that "24 feet" wasn't a scriveners error. NADDA. See how goofy this is? I could do that same weak argument. You're better than that.  
But that is your assertion, that you proved Cossey was not contacted. Using ridiculous analogies doesn't help your argument.
 

lol, of course he was. Just on the 26th after they sent two agents after him! How does that have any bearing on your argument?
In person was at the Seattle office… you claimed first contact, it wasn’t. 

Maybe Andy Anderson was D.B. Cooper? Maybe Tina and Anderson were lovers? You have no idea what happened. 
Yes, the point is YOU don't know. YOU are claiming you can prove Cossey knew of Hayden before the chute description.
 

Well they for DAMN SURE do not prove what you are claiming they do. 
I have said I can't prove it, so why are you accusing me of something I didn't claim.
 

But you don't, clearly. 
Very little,, but I was referring to your peer review comment.. peer review doesn’t work in this case.
 

I don't have to. I don't have an explanation for Tena Bar. Does that mean that one of your theories about Tena Bar is defacto correct just because I don't have an explanation? No. That's what Ulis does whenever someone challenges him on his WFP burial scenario. "Since you can't come up with an explanation, then mine is the correct one by default."
No, you don’t have to… why would you something you are incapable of doing..   TBAR is different though, there are really endless explanations that can fit within the evidence.. For Cooper's chute description we have lots of red flags, inconsistencies and conflicts. To reconcile them within the evidence is very constrained and difficult. I can only see one possibility,, I presented it but can’t prove it as as fact.. and you can’t disprove it. TBAR and Cossey’s chute description are not comparable. NICE try though.

Again, I don't have to present an explanation to have an opinion about YOUR explanation.
No you don’t, to have an opinion. The issue is your opinion is not supported by the evidence you claim.
 

You've been presenting as evidence for days:
I presented evidence to support an explanation and even claimed it is not proven. Again, twisting my position to fit your narrative.

 

Cossey says he was called the night of the hijacking - you got that from a 2003 interview where it's part of a known lie. 
You don't know when Cossey was lying, telling half truths or the truth. Cossey also lied to the FBI,,
 

Cossey gave an undocumented interview to the FBI about the backchutes where he thought they were his but this happened BEFORE he spoke to the media on the 25th  -  we have a document from the 26th where agents are pissed that the media has talked to Cossey but they haven't. Again, these agents are working TOGETHER. If there was a prior interview, they wouldn't have been so intent on going after him. 
My argument is that Cossey gave the description of his personal back chute. That would have occurred some time between the evening of the 24th and the in person interview,, potentially even during that interview. You do not have any proof that he didn't.  He could have been contacted by somebody else or before or after those agents comments.

Cossey was the only one who could have supplied the description of the backchutes - they write that no one has answered Cossey's phone all night an hour AFTER firing off a six page letter containing a full description of the backchutes ergo Cossey didn't give that description contained in that letter. 
They started contacting at the early AM on the 25th, not the evening. Cossey claimed he was contacted that evening that would be before the FBI tried per that doc.

So you're batting .1000 in your mind? Every opinion you have is the truth? Every explanation you have for something is correct? These are theories. Theories are meant to be attacked. They are meant to see if they can hold up to scrutiny. I find this theory of yours lacking because I'm able to attack it with case evidence. 
I didn't say that, classic strawman Ryan, weak. I also never said I can prove this.. I have said I can't.. I was pointing out that peer review does not work. No, you haven’t disproven it with case files.. Your opinion is not proof. I have those files, I posted those files and they are not dispositive.

Nope. I've changed my mind. I think the packing card said 26 and the guy wrote 24. I mean, were you there? How do you really know the agent didn't have a brain fart when hand writing that 302 from Girolamo? Maybe he was thinking of his girlfriend at the time and if she was mad he was missing their anniversary dinner they had planned that night. Maybe his wife was about to have a baby. Maybe he had the runs and couldn't concentrate. Maybe the lady who typed it was daydreaming about Steve McQueen. Maybe it was her first day and she hit the wrong key because she was nervous. You weren't there. You have no idea what happened. So honestly, we really shouldn't believe anything written in the FBI Files. 
No, Hayden’s missing chute was not a 26’.. those are conical..  and there are lots of other conflicts that need to be reconciled.

Ryan, you have screwed this up.. I have presented a theory to reconcile a very complex set of inconstancies and within the evidence.. You have elevated your opinion to claim you have disproved it, you have NOT. In fact, some of your arguments are complete nonsense. You use strawman arguments, and restrict Cossey’s statements to fit your own bias.

Fact is, on the 24th Cossey did not know Hayden’s back chutes were used instead of his, Emrich did not know about Hayden.. he knew to send fronts only.. So, when did Cossey learn of Hayden, he could have only learned of Hayden from the FBI or the individual who initially contacted him. When is unknown. It could have been in the same conversation that he gave the description of his chutes.. Unlikely an agent would even know Cossey knew about Hayden or assume he already did..  So, no you didn't disprove it. You have an opinion based on faith not facts. IMO, a poorly constructed one. Nothing wrong with that but don't claim you have disproved something you haven’t.

I can see Cossey being contacted, the chute left behind described, Cossey giving the description of his personal rig and the FBI bringing up Hayden...  they would not have known Cossey didn't know about Hayden's chutes being used.

and stop with all the strawman nonsense. 
 

[olemisscub 510]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

He made the dummy chute and Emrich didn't even know it was a dummy that he sent so how could he describe it.

OK, so to believe this, all of us have to believe that 1) Cossey gave a description BEFORE they wrote that they tried calling him all night. 2) That his description did NOT include the fact that one was a dummy. 

So Cossey gives this undocumented description, doesn't describe it as a dummy, then two days later decides it's time to describe it being a dummy. Got it. 

[FLYJACK 707]

and Ryan keeps claiming this news piece was from the 25th...  printed on the 26th..

It was printed in the PI final edition on the 26th, no indiction it was from the UPI reporter or even from the 25th....

[olemisscub 510]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Since Emrich sent the dummy in error how could he describe that rig (know it drunk).. makes no sense.

 

He has eyeballs. If the person describing the rig knew it was a dummy, they'd have described it as such. The FBI doesn't learn that one was a dummy until a reporter tells them that Cossey told him that. So Cossey fully describes his fronts in this mystery statement, but DOESN'T provide the detail that it was a dummy, but then DOES tell a reporter that it's a dummy? 

[FLYJACK 707]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

OK, so to believe this, all of us have to believe that 1) Cossey gave a description BEFORE they wrote that they tried calling him all night. 2) That his description did NOT include the fact that one was a dummy. 

So Cossey gives this undocumented description, doesn't describe it as a dummy, then two days later decides it's time to describe it being a dummy. Got it. 

You don't know when he was first contacted or by whom.

You don't know that he wasn't contacted by somebody else or before that agent complains about not reaching him. Communications were not the same as today.. 

Cossey would not know that a dummy was taken until some time on the 25th or early 26th.

Where did the "flat circular" come from... on the 25th...  

So, yeah, you still have nothing to disprove it.. 

You need to prove that Cossey was informed of Hayden's chutes being used instead of his before he gave the description...   you can't do it because we don't have all the information.

You even claimed Cossey's memory could be a wrong because he packed Hayden's chutes six months prior... 

When Cossey gave the description, did he review his records...  good question. I would think a rigger would review their records from six months earlier... If he did why didn't he supply them, if he didn't why not.. because he didn't know Hayden's chutes were used until later.

So, why did he lie and not provide the legally required riggers logs... they would have described Hayden's chutes. Looks like a Cossey CYA move.

 

When did Cossey know Hayden's chutes were used and who informed him.

 

 

 

[FLYJACK 707]

22 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

He has eyeballs. If the person describing the rig knew it was a dummy, they'd have described it as such. The FBI doesn't learn that one was a dummy until a reporter tells them that Cossey told him that. So Cossey fully describes his fronts in this mystery statement, but DOESN'T provide the detail that it was a dummy, but then DOES tell a reporter that it's a dummy? 

That was my point.. Cossey learned it was a dummy on the 25th.

The reporter talked to Cossey late aft or night of the 25th..

That description was earlier on the 25th.

Presumably, he would have learned between those events.

[olemisscub 510]

26 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

and Ryan keeps claiming this news piece was from the 25th...  printed on the 26th..

It was printed in the PI final edition on the 26th, no indiction it was from the UPI reporter or even from the 25th....

 

Cool. What about the Oregonian morning edition?

 

[olemisscub 510]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That was my point.. Cossey learned it was a dummy on the 25th.

The reporter talked to Cossey late aft or night of the 25th..

That description was earlier on the 25th.

 

So he's able to describe HIS dummy chute in detail....without knowing he's describing HIS dummy chute? How does that work exactly?

Edited December 23, 2024 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 707]

4 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Unless that is definitively documented I don't buy it. Emrich owns the dz and the jump school. (He is a jumper and instructor, right?) He owns all the student gear and training aids. He knows that dummy reserve drunk, in the dark, and half asleep. Sure, Cossey put the dummy together, and he maintains the student gear and packs the reserves, because he's the rigger. But it's Emrich's stuff and he would know it cold.

It is documented that Cossey owned the chute in the files, but that isn't entirely reliable.

But how did Emrich unknowingly grab the dummy if he knew them so well. Doesn't add up.

[FLYJACK 707]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Cool. What about the Oregonian morning edition?

 

That isn't necessarily from Cossey.

The quote is from Cossey but the Hayden statement from the FBI..

[FLYJACK 707]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

So he's able to describe HIS dummy chute in detail....without knowing he's describing HIS dummy chute? How does that work exactly?

Sure, he could have been describing the reserve he thought was taken.

The description was generic, not really accurate.. for the dummy. Never mentioned it was sewn either.. if it was Emrich's description he didn't say it was a dummy.

How would Emrich describe a chute he couldn't even identify as a dummy when he grabbed it. Not likely.

It doesn't even matter, this isn't required even if that description was from Emrich it doesn't change anything..  

Whoever gave that front chute description, Cossey or Emrich did not know it was a dummy.

It had to be form either Cossey or Emrich.

I lean toward Cossey because of the "flat circular" attribution to the missing back chute in the same doc, and Emrich's inability to ID that chest reserve when he grabbed it.

If it was Cossey that proves he talked to somebody before the in-person 26th interview, but if it was Emrich it does NOT prove he didn't.

26th Cossey supplied all four chutes..  and dummy is noted.

Edited December 23, 2024 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 510]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

That isn't necessarily from Cossey.

The quote is from Cossey but the Hayden statement from the FBI..

I think I may have finally figured out my main issue with your premise and why my brain is struggling to follow you on this. Cossey couldn't shut up about this thing back in 71 to the media. As much as he liked to insert himself into the story, don't you think that he'd mention them being his parachutes or, at the very least, tell them about receiving the call that night? I feel like such a thing would have ended up in the paper. In other words, if he was actually called that night, it would have shown up in those early papers. The reporters wouldn't just leave that out of their story, so it's doubtful he told them about it. This makes me think it never happened. Him receiving a call from the FBI that night isn't documented anywhere in the FBI files (I ask why?) and Cossey doesn't mention it until 2003 (again, I ask why?). Why isn't he mentioned anywhere in this sequence?

[olemisscub 510]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

26th Cossey supplied all four chutes..  and dummy is noted.

 

Meh, we both know that the media, and the FBI themselves on occasion, get mixed up with the packed/owned/supplied verbiage. 

And it's not really worth nothing that the dummy is appearing in that first round of publications on the 26th given that we have that document where the AP person calls to fact check about the dummy chute after speaking to Cossey on the 25th. The FBI's response to that query and their sudden urgency to speak to Cossey after learning of it makes me think the FBI didn't know anything about the dummy chute until that reporter called them. 

[The Cooper Vortex 100]

Speaking of parachutes, my latest episode is out now. DB Cooper asked for parachutes with my good friend Mike Davis.

https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-tf5k6-1781253

Enjoy!

[FLYJACK 707]

20 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I think I may have finally figured out my main issue with your premise and why my brain is struggling to follow you on this. Cossey couldn't shut up about this thing back in 71 to the media. As much as he liked to insert himself into the story, don't you think that he'd mention them being his parachutes or, at the very least, tell them about receiving the call that night? I feel like such a thing would have ended up in the paper. In other words, if he was actually called that night, it would have shown up in those early papers. The reporters wouldn't just leave that out of their story, so it's doubtful he told them about it. This makes me think it never happened. Him receiving a call from the FBI that night isn't documented anywhere in the FBI files (I ask why?) and Cossey doesn't mention it until 2003 (again, I ask why?). Why isn't he mentioned anywhere in this sequence?

We know Cossey is unreliable, we don't know when he first talked to the FBI or somebody.. 

These FBI documents are incomplete and unclear.

My reconciliation only needs him to have given his missing chute description before he learned about Hayden's chutes being sent and that must have come from the FBI. 

Unless he assumed the chute Hayden got 6 months before and misremembered.. I doubt it,, but possible.

If it was the evening of the 25th then everything still fits...

If the in person meeting with the FBI on the 26th was early enough, Cossey may have given his description then learned about Hayden later in the same interview.. the FBI would not have known Cossey was unaware of Hayden. Or, Cossey gave the description in a call prior to the 26th meeting.. they had to have talked to him before that in-person meeting.

No, I can't prove it but the files and the info we have can't disprove it.

 

Was Cossey ever compensated for his expertise???

 

I do think that Cossey was caught in an error that he couldn't come out and correct. He lied about and kept his records from the FBI.. Years later, the case cooled off for Cossey to feel safe enough to shift his story to fit his error rather than shift toward the truth. He benefits by doubling down, not by correcting his error.

 

Cossey's narrative is telling us what his error was..

These aren't random lies, these are calculated to convert his initial error to a fact at a time when he feels he can get away with it.... some are true descriptions of his personal chutes, not Hayden's

The chute left behind was returned to him and is cherished,,  (he always had his, never got Hayden's)

The "Pioneer" was a freefall rig,, (his was, Hayden's was a bailout rig)

Also called the Pioneer a sport rig,, aka steerable (Bruce) (his Pioneer B-4 was steerable not Hayden's) 

The "Pioneer" was a B-4,, (his was, Hayden's was a civilian P2-B-24 container with a military canopy)

One was a Cadillac, the other a VW,, (Hayden said they were similar)

The NB6 was a Pioneer,, (it was never called a Pioneer, only Hayden's chute left behind was called a Pioneer and it was)

They were his personal rigs,, (they were Hayden's)

The NB6 was thinner,, (Hayden's P2-B-24 is a very thin civilian model)

He told Carr the back chutes came (by cab) from his house,, (perhaps because Carr knew only the fronts came from Issaquah and backs came by cab)

Cossey's NB6 was modified, an altered Ripcord (Bruce, a rigger wouldn't alter one for Hayden)

Cossey said he owned the chutes and never heard of Norman Hayden. (Bruce)(Hayden wasn't public for many years)

Cossey claimed Northwest paid him for the chutes (fronts maybe)

[olemisscub 510]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

These aren't random lies, these are calculated to convert his initial error to a fact at a time when he feels he can get away with it.... some are true descriptions of his personal chutes, not Hayden's

 

If Cossey is unreliable, then we shouldn’t take anything he says at any point EVER with a bit of credulity. Strike him from the record completely and what are we left with?

Norman Hayden’s first description. So now you have to reconcile why Hayden thought it was a 28 footer. I know what size canopy are in my parachutes that I own. Why wouldn’t he?

[FLYJACK 707]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

If Cossey is unreliable, then we shouldn’t take anything he says at any point EVER with a bit of credulity. Strike him from the record completely and what are we left with?

Norman Hayden’s first description. So now you have to reconcile why Hayden thought it was a 28 footer. I know what size canopy are in my parachutes that I own. Why wouldn’t he?

If you discount EVERYTHING Cossey said then there is no NB6, that is what I have been claiming. I was just reconciling Cossey's erroneous narratives.

Hayden's description conflicts with the packing card...

I think Hayden's description is correct except the 28'...  that could be some type of error by Hayden or the agent. It was claimed only once,, while Cossey repeated it over and over... So, he meant it.

I think the packing card 24' carries more weight than Hayden's 28'..

[georger 244]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

If Cossey is unreliable, then we shouldn’t take anything he says at any point EVER with a bit of credulity. Strike him from the record completely and what are we left with?

Norman Hayden’s first description. So now you have to reconcile why Hayden thought it was a 28 footer. I know what size canopy are in my parachutes that I own. Why wouldn’t he?

Early in this thread, someone maybe Bruce talked to Hadyen. Maybe its in an article by Bruce. But I distinctly remember Hayden saying 'if it werent for the FAA he wouldnt fly with chutes at all!'. The chutes were under his seat and in an emergency there wouldnt be time to get to chutes, in any event. So chutes were pointless'. He paid no attention to them  and very well may not have even known what they were! ???  Maybe touch bases with Bruce on this. I  seem to recall he knew Cossey had packed his chutes but beyond that he may not have known what his chutes were ?   

Most of Hayden's flying was aerobatic ? 

Edited December 24, 2024 by georger

[olemisscub 510]

Just now, georger said:

Early in this thread, someone maybe Bruce talked to Hadyen. Maybe its in an article by Bruce. But I distinctly remember saying 'if it werent for the FAA he wouldnt fly with chutes at all!'. The chutes were under his seat and in an emergency there wouldnt be time to get to chutes, in any event. So chutes were pointless'. He paid no attention to them  and very well may not have even known what they were! ???  Maybe touch bases with Bruce on this. I  seem to recall he knew Cossey had packed his chutes but beyond that he may not have known what his chutes were ?   

Hayden sure seemed awfully concerned about them once they were gone. He shows up in the FBI files several times between 71 and 74 asking for his Pioneer back and talking about how its harness was really comfortable for him. So he did wear them inside his plane. 

[georger 244]

13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Hayden sure seemed awfully concerned about them once they were gone. He shows up in the FBI files several times between 71 and 74 asking for his Pioneer back and talking about how its harness was really comfortable for him. So he did wear them inside his plane. 

Without a doubt! He wanted the chutes back ... thats business/personal.

Edited December 24, 2024 by georger

[olemisscub 510]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

If you discount EVERYTHING Cossey said then there is no NB6, that is what I have been claiming. I was just reconciling Cossey's erroneous narratives.

I think the packing card 24' carries more weight than Hayden's 28'..

Getting rid of Cossey doesn't negate the possibility of Hayden's chute being an NB-6. He had a surplus military parachute. Most likely was an NB-6 or B-4. Hayden doesn't call the Pioneer a military chute, but he does call the Cooper chute a military type parachute. So that tells me that he thought of them differently, which means they likely looked different. I know you disagree, but at this point if we disregard Cossey completely, there is no higher a likelihood that it was some old WWII chute than a B-4 or NB-6. 

And of course the packing card carries more weight over Hayden. It even carried more weight for me when it was Hayden and Cossey against the packing card, which is a written record. I'm just not sold on your reasoning for WHY there is a discrepancy between 28 and 24. 

[FLYJACK 707]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Getting rid of Cossey doesn't negate the possibility of Hayden's chute being an NB-6. He had a surplus military parachute. Most likely was an NB-6 or B-4. Hayden doesn't call the Pioneer a military chute, but he does call the Cooper chute a military type parachute. So that tells me that he thought of them differently, which means they likely looked different. I know you disagree, but at this point if we disregard Cossey completely, there is no higher a likelihood that it was some old WWII chute than a B-4 or NB-6. 

And of course the packing card carries more weight over Hayden. It even carried more weight for me when it was Hayden and Cossey against the packing card, which is a written record. I'm just not sold on your reasoning for WHY there is a discrepancy between 28 and 24. 

Yes, it actually does negate an NB6.. Cossey was the only source for the claim.. nothing corroborates it.

Hayden's description doesn't match an NB6.. Olive drab with tan cloth harness.

Hayden said the chutes were the same/similar..  An NB6 is nothing like his Pioneer.

I think Hayden called it military because it was Olive Drab. That tan one was a civilian version. There were many models that were very similar.

The WW2 military chutes were Olive Drab,, later NB6's were Sage Green..

The packing card doesn't really match it either,, a 24' conical in an NB6 container is unlikely and it does not confirm an NB6..

So, it is very unlikely it was an NB6...  that is where I started this.

 

Either the 24 or the 28 is wrong.. A 28 matches a flat circular.

The card called the 24 a conical..

On balance if one is an error it is most likely Hayden..

Edited December 24, 2024 by FLYJACK

[georger 244]

Dr. Edwards: A must read -   D. B. Cooper and Flight 305: oscillations and pressure bump revisited

 

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by georger