georger 255
georger 255
Wasn't the jump made in the evening? The less light is present, the more trouble people that are a little myopic have... a phenominon called 'night myopia'.
Reply> why dont you explain to them what night
myopia means, its implication for depth perception
even in normal sighted persons ...
Its not a phenominon but a normal physiological
response ......... rods, cones, foveal vision, extrafovial,
and all that.
It has a perceptual and psychologoical valuie vis-a-vis
night time vs daytime activities, according to textbooks.
G.
Reply> why dont you explain to them what night
myopia means, its implication for depth perception
even in normal sighted persons ...
Its not a phenominon but a normal physiological
response ......... rods, cones, foveal vision, extrafovial,
and all that.
It has a perceptual and psychologoical valuie vis-a-vis
night time vs daytime activities, according to textbooks.
G.
377 22
Georger is right. I am myopic, need glasses to drive, jump and see distant things clearly yet when approaching SFO for a landing from any direction I can identify towns like Sausalito, Hayward, Redwood City, Sunnyvale etc without my glasses. I cant see anything distinctly but know where lighted areas are relative to unlighted areas (bay, hills, etc) and can figure it out. I REALLY don't think Duane was Cooper but Duane might have been able to ID Tacoma from the 727 without his Rx glasses if he knew the area
377.
377.
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 255
I agree he's either a little bit nearsighted, or at least a little bit of astigmatism (minus cyl in the 90 degree axis). Not a whole lot, but some.
Peregrinerose,
Thanks for coming back and giving us the right answer! I am glad to stand corrected. I think the general idea that he was in a high stress situation that required all of his faculties holds true. I doubt we are ever going to see the actual prescription so its likely to end here.
For me it still puts Duane out of the picture as Cooper. I think the real Dan Cooper didn't need glasses and everything in the testimony indicated he got along fine without them. He could have had goggles hidden somewhere along with the eyeglasses but that exceeds what we know about the situation.
Thanks!
Tom
ps sorry about the he/she mistake!
I don't think that the Rx alone eliminates Duane. I think it decreases the likelihood a bit, but not totally rules out. I see people frequently that honesly believe their vsion is perfectly fine and they are safe to drive, etc even if they can barely see the big E on the chart. It's usually guys that are in that kind of denial as well (no offense to all of you guy-types on here, that's just the trend). And if his script is as low as I think it is, he probably could have pulled the hijack off just fine with that kind of vision.
As a historical note, Jo has never mentioned vision
as a serious issue for Duane. Health issues either,
in spite of Pasternak's certifications to the opposite.
Jo has mentioned Duane's diabetes but not active in '71, she says.
Tina Mucklow would have been a good witness as to
any vision issues with the hijacker. She spent the most
time with him, up close & personal. She watched him
do things and move around, look out windows, etc.
And so, according to the Weber Effect, the figment
trails off into the nether world again, for a recharge,
in respect.
377 22
Okay, so I'm got my photoshopped 1969 Cooper Bills, so that's done.
This next step cost me.
I had to buy some old jumper drinks until he passed out, then I went thru his wallet and found his old A license. I figure it's ethical cause I paid for the drinks, right? A woman wouldn't have paid for his drinks, so I figure I'm still on the good side.
In any case, I was surprised to see in 1973 that they recorded your D.O.B, height, weight, hair, eyes, sex and a picture, with a seal? just like a driver's license. And then there were annual stamps like postage stamps?
It says the photo needs the USPA seal, and you have to return the license to the USPA for annual validation?
Who typed up these licenses? (this one was typed).
When did they start recording all the physical data and photos? Did they keep a copy of this info at the USPA main office?
Does anyone have a PCA or USPA license from the early '60s? I'm wondering what they look like. I need to plant one in Duane's van, if I can find it.
(see attached.. all identifying info has been redacted)
were they all red in 73? (A licenses)
Snow, you are so busted. Thats a PINK license, so we know the jumper you plied with alcohol was female. Could have been Rigger Mick's ex wife, but he won't mind
You are an honorary jumper, so mum's the word. But Snow... wasn't she a bit old for you? They haven't issued those kind of licenses for many decades.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 255
I'm willing to venture that on the type of round parachute that's referenced regarding this topic... he'd hit the planet about the same way ~ blind, sighted, drunk or sober.
You hit the nail on the head!
snowmman 3
Snow, you are so busted. Thats a PINK license, so we know the jumper you plied with alcohol was female.
well, yeah, she said she was female, and I thought she was female....till the wig fell off.
But Snow... wasn't she a bit old for you?
I said I had to pay for that one. Not exactly dollars.
"negotiable" currency is context dependent.
Hey, you know there's no evidence Cooper could ID Tacoma, is there? I'm doing this from memory, someone can correct me if they check the notes.
The plane was circling right, when this Tacoma ID happened? He knows he's going to Seatac, which stands for Seattle-Tacoma. So a random guess while circling: it's either Seattle or Tacoma. So you say to the stew: Isn't that Tacoma? You're either right or you're wrong. Turns out you guessed right.
I can't see how a little exchange like that, turned into: "he could ID Tacoma from the air"
There was no additional knowledge required, was there? Am I missing something?
georger 255
A lot of the old pictures I see show the guys wearing army style boots - was this to protect your ankles under rounds? It sure wasn't for freefall performance...
Just thinking about Cooper and his loafers.
Loafers would almost certainly come off in a jet jump. Very hard to understand how an experienced jumper expected to exit, freefall, land and walk out in loafers.
Reply> That was the very first thing the Boeing guys
I know mentioned. They rated that at 100%.
So either a guy has the balls (experience) to jump
that way or, he's a fool like Ckret says.
Wierdness is as wierdness does.
Georger
georger 255
Interesting site of a paratrooper's experience in WW2.
http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:oXDh4xfD13IJ:www.508pir.org/pdf_files/bio_morgan_wooster.pdf+%22wooster+m+morgan%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=za
Good read. Thanks for that.
ltdiver
agree. I got started on that late last night and
couldnt put it down. It covered anecdotes Ive read
over the years but tied it all together. I copied and
saved it for my children to read. Thought of my
uncle Glenn who was lost in Belgium. Last thing
I read before I went to bed last night! Damn.
Thanks...
Georger
snowmman 3
Reply> That was the very first thing the Boeing guys
I know mentioned. They rated that at 100%.
So either a guy has the balls (experience) to jump
that way or, he's a fool like Ckret says.
Wierdness is as wierdness does.
Georger
How come I can see pictures of jumpers today jumping with sandals?
The way I figure it, if you're going to do the hijack jump in '71, you're only going to do it once. Any sad sack could do it in good gear. To be able to talk about it still in 2008? Gotta do it in a suit and sandals, at night in the rain.
Forward-looking. Knows kids are always breathing up your ass with the next big thing.
Or like you say, could just be a dumb ass. Who likes to have the fuel trucks ready when they land. Time is money!
georger 255
Georger is right. I am myopic, need glasses to drive, jump and see distant things clearly yet when approaching SFO for a landing from any direction I can identify towns like Sausalito, Hayward, Redwood City, Sunnyvale etc without my glasses. I cant see anything distinctly but know where lighted areas are relative to unlighted areas (bay, hills, etc) and can figure it out. I REALLY don't think Duane was Cooper but Duane might have been able to ID Tacoma from the 727 without his Rx glasses if he knew the area
377.
I used to be a pretty good athlete. My whole family.
(Thats how Tosaw knows my family through his brother who played football with Kinnick). In any event, while flying I used to screw around looking at things (upside down, sideways, full vision, one eye shut, eyes dimmed, rag over my face ....) I mean you try and prepare for all kinds of conditions (like your eyes
full of blood etc). We all did it. You get used to seeing
things from different perspectives, and seeing
"kinesthetically" (look that up). Its like peripheral
vision (extra foveal vision) to an extreme. If you've
been over a course countless times you know where
things are. If you had a marker ten minutes ago and
the flight path and V havent changed you whats coming
up or behind or should be on your left and right ....
Dull light of a city shining through a 5000ft or even 10k ft cover at the right time and place and you know
what it is. That is all from experince, in the air.
Now, if you did nothing but study maps and had a
plan and had positions marked out in your mind
(like driving) and you had some reference of some
kind (like getting close to SEA) that alone would
allow one to know .... Tacoma is in that direction,
and it cant be Las Vegas!
Thats all Im saying. Its dead reckoning. But it works.
Georger
georger 255
Snow, you are so busted. Thats a PINK license, so we know the jumper you plied with alcohol was female.
well, yeah, she said she was female, and I thought she was female....till the wig fell off.
But Snow... wasn't she a bit old for you?
I said I had to pay for that one. Not exactly dollars.
"negotiable" currency is context dependent.
Hey, you know there's no evidence Cooper could ID Tacoma, is there? I'm doing this from memory, someone can correct me if they check the notes.
The plane was circling right, when this Tacoma ID happened? He knows he's going to Seatac, which stands for Seattle-Tacoma. So a random guess while circling: it's either Seattle or Tacoma. So you say to the stew: Isn't that Tacoma? You're either right or you're wrong. Turns out you guessed right.
I can't see how a little exchange like that, turned into: "he could ID Tacoma from the air"
There was no additional knowledge required, was there? Am I missing something?
You're right. It could as simple as that. But was it
Tacoma? (What else could it be, will be the answer).
Your point is well taken. Its very small things like
this that get blown into a whole scenario. Ive done it.
You have also done it, dare I say. We have all done it!
There we go. It part of this process we are in, and
particularly here. The Generalised Weber Effect we are
all guilty of. And Labrys was correct!
G.
377 22
How come I can see pictures of jumpers today jumping with sandals?
I've jumped in sandals with no problem. What happens with loafers is that the slipstream tries to inflate them and you lose your interference fit.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 255
I agree he's either a little bit nearsighted, or at least a little bit of astigmatism (minus cyl in the 90 degree axis). Not a whole lot, but some.
Peregrinerose,
Thanks for coming back and giving us the right answer! I am glad to stand corrected. I think the general idea that he was in a high stress situation that required all of his faculties holds true. I doubt we are ever going to see the actual prescription so its likely to end here.
For me it still puts Duane out of the picture as Cooper. I think the real Dan Cooper didn't need glasses and everything in the testimony indicated he got along fine without them. He could have had goggles hidden somewhere along with the eyeglasses but that exceeds what we know about the situation.
Thanks!
Tom
ps sorry about the he/she mistake!
I don't think that the Rx alone eliminates Duane. I think it decreases the likelihood a bit, but not totally rules out.
Reply> What in your estimation would rule Duane out?
I dont expect an answer. Why? People who make
statements like this NEVER defend them. Just hit,
and run .... you and Tom must be new clones
of Jo! ?
georger 255
Reply> That was the very first thing the Boeing guys
I know mentioned. They rated that at 100%.
So either a guy has the balls (experience) to jump
that way or, he's a fool like Ckret says.
Wierdness is as wierdness does.
Georger
How come I can see pictures of jumpers today jumping with sandals?
The way I figure it, if you're going to do the hijack jump in '71, you're only going to do it once. Any sad sack could do it in good gear. To be able to talk about it still in 2008? Gotta do it in a suit and sandals, at night in the rain.
Forward-looking. Knows kids are always breathing up your ass with the next big thing.
Or like you say, could just be a dumb ass. Who likes to have the fuel trucks ready when they land. Time is money!
You always lighten the load, and its welcome.
I would trade you for a truck load of "professionals
professing" right now.
Have you ever noticed they NEVER answer a question
'unless they have put it to themselves' first?
Safe position. Just "shine" everyone. Professional.
Georger
snowmman 3
We know little about the FBI investigation.
Ckret says it was a good effort.
Bill Whitney was questioned for 5 1/2 hours.
On 12/7/71 the attached article was in the Nevada State Journal.
Evidently Bill Whitney of Seattle was questioned and had to provide an alibi.
Well he was balding, and wore dark glasses a lot.
And he was 5' 0" ...that's right, 5 feet tall.
And he weighed 140 lbs.
And he's only 33.
And he was a co-holder of the northwest altitude record at 30,000 feet?
Other than those minor discrepancies compared to the profile, sounds like a great suspect. :)
I guess he was one of the "1000 suspects"
Sounds like he got the finger because he was balding and wore sunglasses. Good example of how people focused on the sunglasses and balding, to the disregard of anything else?
The worst thing about the 1971 sketch was probably the sunglasses. Then the tie.
How many jumpers showed up at the DZ wearing a tie? Even today, how often? Do you know how many jumpers wear a tie at work? (Or what the women wear at work?)
There were probably 10,000 civilian jumpers in the US.
(edit) That's the early 60s. a lot more by '71
Somehow, Bill was culled as worth talking to.
Sounds more likely the FBI did no investigation, just responded to phone-in tips. Which I guess were just reactions to newspaper articles. Cluster-F*** by definition?
(edit) or maybe talking to guys at DZs in '71 and asking "who do ya think?"
Ckret says it was a good effort.
Bill Whitney was questioned for 5 1/2 hours.
On 12/7/71 the attached article was in the Nevada State Journal.
Evidently Bill Whitney of Seattle was questioned and had to provide an alibi.
Well he was balding, and wore dark glasses a lot.
And he was 5' 0" ...that's right, 5 feet tall.
And he weighed 140 lbs.
And he's only 33.
And he was a co-holder of the northwest altitude record at 30,000 feet?
Other than those minor discrepancies compared to the profile, sounds like a great suspect. :)
I guess he was one of the "1000 suspects"
Sounds like he got the finger because he was balding and wore sunglasses. Good example of how people focused on the sunglasses and balding, to the disregard of anything else?
The worst thing about the 1971 sketch was probably the sunglasses. Then the tie.
How many jumpers showed up at the DZ wearing a tie? Even today, how often? Do you know how many jumpers wear a tie at work? (Or what the women wear at work?)
There were probably 10,000 civilian jumpers in the US.
(edit) That's the early 60s. a lot more by '71
Somehow, Bill was culled as worth talking to.
Sounds more likely the FBI did no investigation, just responded to phone-in tips. Which I guess were just reactions to newspaper articles. Cluster-F*** by definition?
(edit) or maybe talking to guys at DZs in '71 and asking "who do ya think?"
377 22
or maybe talking to guys at DZs in '71 and asking "who do ya think?"
The FBI did precious little of that in the SF Bay Area. I don't know one jumper in this area who was queried by the feds. Too bad Wesley Snipes or Kenau Reeves wasn't in the FBI back then. They wouldn't just sit by the phone waiting for hot tips. They would have been all over it, jumping, investigating and raising hell. Oh yeah.
Georger asks what would rule Duane out? A solid alibi, just like McCoy had. But the person who might know something about his whereabouts on that fateful day seems to want him on the plane.
So Snow, what bar did you find jumpers at? It used to be Gordon Biersch in P.A. on Wednesday nights.
Orange, you seem to have lightened up on Jo. Holiday spirit? Keep that research coming. You are finding some very interesting stuff.
Seems like I gotta base jump to get any respect these days. Trouble is it's too scary. What a quandry.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
I was surprised by a recent post saying that McCoy was smart, except for opening his mouth.
It seems to me McCoy was consistently dumb.
Here's an article that points out that not only McCoy have a conversation with Utah Highway Patrolman Robert Van Ieperen beforehand, but that McCoy's sister-in-law had called Ieperen during the hijacking, saying McCoy wasn't home and she was 'scared to death' because he had previously tried to enlist her in a hijacking scheme. No wonder they were on McCoy so fast. (Ieperen relayed all that to FBI)
And McCoy used a handwritten note and left it on the plane. I guess there were fingerprints also, but unclear if they could have been used to "find" McCoy.
This is the first time I noticed the sister-in-law's report mentioned, with regard to McCoy. (4/10/72 paper)
It seems to me McCoy was consistently dumb.
Here's an article that points out that not only McCoy have a conversation with Utah Highway Patrolman Robert Van Ieperen beforehand, but that McCoy's sister-in-law had called Ieperen during the hijacking, saying McCoy wasn't home and she was 'scared to death' because he had previously tried to enlist her in a hijacking scheme. No wonder they were on McCoy so fast. (Ieperen relayed all that to FBI)
And McCoy used a handwritten note and left it on the plane. I guess there were fingerprints also, but unclear if they could have been used to "find" McCoy.
This is the first time I noticed the sister-in-law's report mentioned, with regard to McCoy. (4/10/72 paper)
snowmman 3
So Snow, what bar did you find jumpers at? It used to be Gordon Biersch in P.A. on Wednesday nights.
I just got back from going to Home Depot.
And there's a van in front of me, with two orange ladders on the roof. ~16' extension ladders. White van. Didn't get a look at the guy.
There's two round stickers in the left rear window. I think one was USPA.
A bumper sticker that says "If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you"
Another sticker on the right rear window that said something about Skydiving.
I was literally just 3 feet behind this vehicle. It about 7:30 pm. He turned left. I didn't see where he went when I entered Home Depot. I should have gotten a photo, per Jo's lead.
So that's the closest I've ever come to a skydiver.
My heart is still going! I would have stayed in pursuit, but I remembered Ckret is off the thread...oh well.
:)
That's not true, it was mentioned in the newspaper report to whcih Snow posted the link the other day (the same one that talks about the CIA planes). I need to check, but IIRC the newspaper article said they were told that bit by Himmelsbach
I didn't see that link - could someone repost it so I can go read the article - need to find out if it is one I don't have.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber