georger 256 #6676 December 28, 2008 QuoteQuote Tom, if you can't keep an open mind about Weber then your analysis of the money will be tainted. How on EARTH does an opinion on Duane affect a scientific analysis of the money? You are going back to your old ways of "if people don't think Duane was Cooper I won't accept anything they say". The only person this reflects badly on is you. Tom is new to all of this. I tried to advise him there might be complications. Anyone who has been in his for more than a year knows there is precident for the current illustration. Its beyond anyone ability to reason or cope with. Your only choice is to ignore it or leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #6677 December 28, 2008 QuoteQuote Maybe they were quite separated from the skydiving world and this 727 jump stuff was just some company business, no big deal. Do you really believe that? hey,maybe the FBI was looking in the wrong place. Look at this: Quote....The procession of obsolete military planes in and out of Marana raised no eyebrows. Neither did the arrival of Forest Service parachutists. Sonora's work with the Forest Service included dropping smokejumpers, and only a few people in government were aware that the Forest Service smokejumper program cooperated closely with the CIA. From the mid-1950s until the mid-1970s, the CIA actively recruited paramilitary personnel from the smokejumper program, particularly at the Forest Service's Region One fire base at Missoula, Mont., and a satellite base at McCall, Idaho. As many as one-fourth of the smokejumpers at those bases worked at least part time for the CIA. According to Roberts, Intermountain divided its time between converting airplanes and developing new parachutes and parachute techniques for covert operations. Much of the parachute work involved dropping men and supplies into rugged, forested terrain -- exactly the kind of techniques the Forest Service had pioneered. .........Garfield M. Thorsrud was one of five former Missoula smokejumpers who ended up running Intermountain. Dozens more would pass through the Intermountain base en route to destinations such as Laos and Cambodia. And some interesting stuff about the CIA's "hide in plain sight" M.O. at Intermountain,and how CIA operated airlines put other guys out of business and then: Quote At first the CIA and the Pentagon tried to preserve secrecy by arranging contracts for companies that had enough information to blow the whistle. But with the lid about to pop, Richard Helms, then the director of central intelligence, ordered his agency in 1972 to get rid of several proprietaries, including Air America Inc., based on Taiwan; Southern Air Transport Inc. of Miami; and Intermountain Aviation. ......... Latter might have been a good reason for a "grudge", except that it happened after the hijack. The later stuff is also interesting, including navy &army personnel exercising under civilian cover there and a botched attempt to pass off a fatality as a civilian skydiving accident. (1983) All the above from http://www.bollyn.com/index/?id=10684 REPLY> You are in the wrong forum. This forum is not the problem. The people here are not the problem. You need to be in a mental health forum, and this forum is not that. Your problems have nothing to do with the DB Cooper case. Georger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #6678 December 28, 2008 QuoteJo, It is not always easy to get meanings across in words with no non-verbal communication. But please know that the following is said with no malice at all, but rather with sympathy. I am sorry to see you are taking it all so badly. But the difference is really that you are trying to prove Duane was Cooper (to the single minded exclusion of all else), and most others here are trying to find out who Cooper was. btw there were a number of newspaper reports & mentioned on websites etc talking about federal employees on the plane, it is not secret. I'm sorry that the rest of us don't see FBI conspiracies at every turn, but that is just the way it is. It's got nothing to do with being afraid of the govermment (why should I be afraid of the US govt??) but just not seeing that there is anything to "go up against them" with. Because of where this website is, people want to know who Cooper was. If you are looking for people to help you make sense of Duane's life, perhaps you need to look somewhere else. If she needs help she needs to go where the help she needs is. She is tearing things apart here. Nobody can concentrate without incessant interuption here ( and in her private PMs behind the scenes). Jo is a one-person industry that wont stop. Jo has been at this for years! You for months. Guess who will wear out first. Georger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6679 December 28, 2008 Quote[ VERY interesting Orange. You are getting some amazing stuff. Remember all the early speculation on this forum that Cooper might have been a smoke jumper? Who would have guessed of a possible link to CIA SE Asia air activities? 377 yeah it's good stuff. But I thought we touched on this a little bit already. I know that the high numbers of smokejumpers recruited was already discussed. (from articles at the smokejumpers.com site). I thought they mostly were kickers though. I only found one case of a smokejumper involved in the insertion program. I thought the MACV-SOG guys led those teams, mostly, or always?. There was one guy with smokejumper background who was higher up in the organization I think. But I don't think the insertion teams were part-time smokejumper work? (edit) just air drops of various kinds. Although there were mentions of "special projects", left undefined. Orange1: the stuff on Intermountain is interesting. I never pursued the details of what they worked on at Marana. Be interesting to know more. Also: if you can find if the smokejumpers did anything other than act as kickers, that would be interesting. (edit) and you saw the pic of the insertion team smokedumper outfit I posted right? So they must have been some passing of technology/knowledge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6680 December 28, 2008 Quote Tom is new to all of this. I tried to advise him there might be complications. Anyone who has been in his for more than a year knows there is precident for the current illustration. Its beyond anyone ability to reason or cope with. Your only choice is to ignore it or leave. I pointed out before, that I think it appears to be especially difficult for the guys, because Jo knows how to manipulate certain emotions. And does freely. When things get difficult, the emo knob gets turned up. It's hard not to respond to that. I find it best to pretend she's just another guy posting. Makes it easier for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6681 December 28, 2008 Compared to the rest of the stuff going on in the '60s and the '70s with the US govt, (and that we know about and is well defined now).....this little hijack (1 out of hundreds) is nothing. There were much more brutal hijacks internationally. The money was nothing. So Cooper jumped out of the plane. That was nothing too, compared to what people were doing in those days. The only thing that makes 305 interesting, is the media attention, and the reaction of the masses. And that it was the first of the skyjacking parachute events, and that Cooper never was caught. Sure the FBI may or may not have dropped the ball on the investigation. But that's just a separate issue and they were plenty busy with other stuff. The bottom line is that there's nothing about Flight 305 that's worth a conspiracy. How about that hijack where it looked like the guy was going to make the pilot fly into the nuclear power plant, before they said yes to his demands? Do you know about that one Jo? Or the one where the guy was going to fly a plane into the White House for an apparent plan to assassinate Nixon? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Byck Flight 305 is really a cartoon. That's why it's fun to discuss. It's just a guy with a parachute and some money. Jo: I think you need to move on to the 9/11 conspiracy forums. They would embrace you. It's all technical stuff, but you could get up to speed pretty quick. The amount of US history that you don't know Jo, but is freely available, makes the trivial little things you shout out about, just sound real silly. Go read some history. There's plenty of stuff to do with the rest of your life that's fun, if you're not having fun here. We're having fun. Maybe we'll find Cooper too! (edit) In 1972, hijackers took over a plane with over 30 people on board and threatened to crash it into a nuclear research reactor at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. The hijackers demanded a $10 million ransom, and when their demands were rebuffed, forced the pilot into a steep dive towards the reactor that ended when the airline offered $2 million to the hijackers. The hijackers forced the plane to Havana, where they were captured and arrested (Duncan Mansfield, AP/Washington Post, Sept. 19). They wanted a $10 million ransom, 10 parachutes and 10 bulletproof vests. ... more at http://articles.latimes.com/2001/sep/23/news/mn-48746 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #6682 December 28, 2008 QuoteCompared to the rest of the stuff going on in the '60s and the '70s with the US govt, (and that we know about and is well defined now).....this little hijack (1 out of hundreds) is nothing. There were much more brutal hijacks internationally. The money was nothing. So Cooper jumped out of the plane. That was nothing too, compared to what people were doing in those days. The only thing that makes 305 interesting, is the media attention, and the reaction of the masses. And that it was the first of the skyjacking parachute events, and that Cooper never was caught. Sure the FBI may or may not have dropped the ball on the investigation. But that's just a separate issue and they were plenty busy with other stuff. The bottom line is that there's nothing about Flight 305 that's worth a conspiracy. Reply> A play in One Part for the Ordinary Hijacker. No muss, no fuss, ordinary flight at an ordinary time of year and day, in and out, bomb a fake (he isnt really going to blow anyone up), and the greatest single danger is to Himself ... All of the different hijack histories you have presented put the Cooper case into context. There is less action 'in' the hijacking than in the aftermath 'in the public'. That's interesting. Georger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6683 December 28, 2008 Quote yeah it's good stuff. But I thought we touched on this a little bit already. I know that the high numbers of smokejumpers recruited was already discussed. (from articles at the smokejumpers.com site). I thought they mostly were kickers though. I only found one case of a smokejumper involved in the insertion program. I thought the MACV-SOG guys led those teams, mostly, or always?. There was one guy with smokejumper background who was higher up in the organization I think. But I don't think the insertion teams were part-time smokejumper work? (edit) just air drops of various kinds. Although there were mentions of "special projects", left undefined. Orange1: the stuff on Intermountain is interesting. I never pursued the details of what they worked on at Marana. Be interesting to know more. Also: if you can find if the smokejumpers did anything other than act as kickers, that would be interesting. (edit) and you saw the pic of the insertion team smokedumper outfit I posted right? So they must have been some passing of technology/knowledge. Yeah, saw the pic - the small guy? The bit about smokejumpers' experience in landing in rough terrain implied they did a lot more than just kicking. Having said that so far my searches don't show insertion, but either kicker or loadmaster work. Put some links below, I have some other stuff I need to do now but will continue the search later, there are some promising links to investigate... This article from smokejumper.com is interesting - one of the Intermountain guys who dropped loads in SE Asia and then worked as a smokejumper in fire season: http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=353&magazine_editions_id=24 The article notes that the jumpers who worked directly with the CIA were from Missoula and McCall (as per previous link) but that the ones who worked for Air America were from all the bases. This guy - still missing - was working as a cargo kicker. http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=258&magazine_editions_id=7 In WW2 there "smokejumpers" meant something else... "its conversion from a highly trained and combat ready parachute unit to the extremely dangerous role of "smoke jumping" " http://www.thedropzone.org/training/smokejmp.html Background on the Triple Nickles:http://www.thedropzone.org/training/555.html [url]Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6684 December 28, 2008 A relatively lengthy extract from a longer article, which also includes stuff on their role in defoliation - they prevented forest fires in the US and started them in Vietnam. Quote The Vietnam War, however, saw a wider array of Forest Service participation in military activities than ever before. In Vietnam, Forest Service responsibilities expanded to include, as Ronald Hartzer and David Clary wrote in their 1981 history, "support of both civilian and military interests in forest management, fire control and employment, and defoliation." The full extent of Forest Service involvement has not been fully exploredby historians. Some Forest Service personnel in Vietnam worked with or for the Central Intelligence Agency; others worked with the military on defoliation projects; still others conducted logging operations for USAID. The CIA-Forest Service connection is the least known of the Forest Service's involvement in Vietnam. The CIA began hiring Forest Service personnel for its paramilitary operations in the early years of the Cold War and used them in operations around the world for the next three decades. The quasi-military culture of the post-World War Two Forest Service made its employees attractive to CIA recruiters. Smokejumpers were especially sought after because they already had training in parachuting and air delivery techniques in rough terrain to fight fires, and they were fit and adventurous. Several quickly found work with the CIA as "cargo kickers," men who pushed supplies out of cargo planes, just as they had pushed supplies out of Forest Service planes to firefighters. Smokejumpers liked working for the CIA because they could jump fires in the United States during the summer and train foreign jumpers or fly overseas missions the rest of the year. The CIA also operated private airlines such as Air America to carry out its covert missions, and needed experienced pilots, cargo handlers, and maintenance crews to staff them. Again, the agency turned to Forest Service Smokejumpers and pilots. Air America moved equipment and personnel around Southeast Asia when using U.S. military aircraft was undesirable. "Undesirable" sometimes meant flying where the U.S. military was not supposed to be, like in Thailand or Laos. Source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3854/is_200607/ai_n17173820/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1 btw Georger hope more smokejumper links don't elicit more of the same response from you Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phildthedildo 0 #6685 December 28, 2008 thom lyons' website is chock full of info BUT i have seen several inaccuracies when it comes to people and places that we are both familiar with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wolfriverjoe 1,523 #6686 December 28, 2008 Quote Snow, All really good points. Especially why would they publicize the "disguised" version? I have to think its problematic to jump with glasses. What do you do, cover them with goggles?? Or do you pull them out and put them on once your under chute? Whuffo wants to know.... Tom I've been out of town and am just now catching up. If someone else answered already... #1 no goggles- tie strap on glasses, doesn't work for long freefalls. #2 Bigger goggles that go over glasses. #3 Prescription lense goggles- about $100 out of the back of Parachutist."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6687 December 28, 2008 I'm thinking Cooper's appearance didn't sync with any smokejumper+vietnam experience when he was in his 40's. and they weren't doing it so much when he was younger? I'm thinking he would have been described as having a more "physical" kind of appearance if he was actively involved in stuff like that then? It would have been rough work. I'm still thinking civilian, maybe in SE Asia for some other role though, for a bunch of reasons (grudge, difficulty in finding him afterwards, secrecy, jump experience outside of US) Or just a local WA guy like Ckret's original profile. Maybe he really did have no skydiving experience, even going back as far as '62. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #6688 December 28, 2008 Quoteno goggles- tie strap on glasses, doesn't work for long freefalls. I made about fifty jumps with my sunglasses held firmly on to my head with daisy chained packing rubber bands. No goggles were worn over them. On jump 51 one lens blew out of its mounting ending my clever experiment. It was kinda hard figuring out where to flare with no depth perception. I moved my head from side to side to get some semblance of stereo vision with my one good eye and it worked: soft standup landing. Now I have a pair of those cheap Rx goggles Joe mentioned and they work fine. Cost only $79. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6689 December 28, 2008 There's always the possibility Cooper was involved in some desk role in this whole CIA/Marana/smokejumper thing..maybe a wannabe or something. It does make one think about what the FBI meant when they said they investigated any possible military/CIA connection and dismissed it. It would be nice if the FBI had done a formal request with the CIA to review anyone connected with the programs in the '60s and '70s and it came up clean..i.e. everyone accounted for. It's not clear whether the CIA would have given FBI any info then...if not, the idea that the FBI checked out CIA/military and discounted it, would be false. Now Ckret etc could dismiss the connection based on some interpretation of "evidence" or "behavior". But we've been over that enough to know how weak it is. The FBI thought it made sense to interview a five foot tall guy. It would seem looking at these other possibly weakly-supported theories would make sense too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 256 #6690 December 28, 2008 btw Georger hope more smokejumper links don't elicit more of the same response from you define, send me a PM G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #6691 December 28, 2008 It has been said many times on this forum that the FBI Cooper sketch is sort of an everyman look, implying that many faces would be a decent match. There was a huge buzz among jumpers at my DZ about Cooper. I am sure it was the same at DZs all over when the news came out. We all were speculating wildly coming up with suspects who were big risk takers, financially strapped and about the right age and height. We weren't planning on turning anyone in, we just wanted to figure out who did it. We figured it HAD to be a jumper of some kind, probably a skydiver. Trouble was that we couldn't come up with anyone who looked like the sketch. I don't think many people do look like that sketch. The fine features (e.g. delicate nose) aren't all that common. Look at how narrow the nose is in proportion to the face. How many men do you know who have a nose like that? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #6692 December 28, 2008 Quote btw Georger hope more smokejumper links don't elicit more of the same response from you define, send me a PM G[/reply I think G's comments were intended for Jo not you O. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6693 December 28, 2008 hey orange1, I know you could tell georger just misposted...although with georger's attitudes to women, you know how men can get messed up when they keep it bottled up! Hey here's some interesting Marana stuff. It was probably after 1971, but it's interesting for history's sake: from http://www.bollyn.com/index/?id=10684 Our buddy Doole ended up there after Air America shut down. "In 1976, Evergreen hired George Arntzen Doole Jr., the man who had created and run the CIA's global air proprietary system, as a $20,000-a-year consultant. Within a year the new airline had its first military contract." "Interesting planes showed up regularly at Marana. One that came in for maintenance work was a private Boeing 727 jetliner owned by the Occidental Petroleum Co. and used by its chairman, Armand Hammer. The plane has made many trips to the Soviet Union, where Hammer had enjoyed a unique relationship with Kremlin leaders going all the way back to V.I. Lenin. Another plane that rolled through Evergreen's shops was a Lockheed L-100 owned by Idi Amin Dada, the Ugandan president-for-life who later fled into exile accused of murdering more than 150,000 Ugandan citizens and of practicing cannibalism." ... A. E. "Schnozz'' Mayer, Evergreen Air Center's customer representative, said he didn't remember exactly what was done to Amin's plane there, except that it involved interior work. < there were questions about whether Amin's plane could have been bugged> on finances: ""I spent my whole time at Evergreen just scraping up money,'' he said. "I thought I was going to work for a $10 million manufacturing company, but it never had more than $300,000 worth of accounts receivable. "I kept saying to them, 'If you guys know something I don't, now's the time to tell me. Because I've got $7,000 in the bank, and a $14,000 light bill's due tomorrow.' '' Fulton said he was intrigued at such times to get telephone calls from the bank informing him that more money -- $500,000 on one occasion -- had been pumped into the air center's account. He said he assumed it was from one of the other Evergreen companies." ... "Close to Sierra Pacific was a parachute club, Marana Sky Divers Inc., run by Tony Frost. Frost said he had been "around'' the base during the Intermountain era but had worked for another company." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 256 #6694 December 28, 2008 I'm still thinking civilian, maybe in SE Asia for some other role though, for a bunch of reasons (grudge, difficulty in finding him afterwards, secrecy, jump experience outside of US) Or just a local WA guy like Ckret's original profile. Maybe he really did have no skydiving experience, even going back as far as '62. somebody on the fringe watching as in the movie "Taxi" (1976). Somebody who thought he could do it vrs. real experience. Original FBI thought: a copycat to the hijack 2 weeks earlier. But, the word Grudge implies a long thought process. Time to think and be motivated to do this. Time to think and plan. Then something takes it from thinking to doing. Ckret thinks this was random. I dont. Its too perfect to be random. Ckret sees this as just like any other hijacking. I dont. It is rather clear he did not know the crew before he got on board. But he picked a particular day, particular flight time of day, and only one flight (in that area) fit those criteria and that flight had only been added recently. These solid hits take it out of the realm of randomness. He picked that flight because it fit his plan. This is an organised guy, compared to most. His primary tools were opportunity and keeping order and bluff. Ckret will disagree. He let the system do all the work. We have to take the no-bomb theory seriously which says the only real risk was to himself and he was willing to take that risk on. (unless he had a concealed weapon which we will never know). Maybe "this guy" thought that road flares were just as lethal on an airplane as dynamite. There's a novel thought! That idea goes to competence and fits with Ckret's idea of Cooper. But this is a guy who is using the system against itself and that is his primary weapon. He is betting the system will act in a certain way, and it did. He needs to do this rather quickly before the system can get orgnised and retaliate, or pople change their minds or examine things too closely. It is essential that he get people off the plane and isolate himself from prying eyes. But he almost has to do this between the time 305 has lifted off at SEA and before it can land anywhere else, or the weather breaks, or any of the other variables which could lead to him being apprehended kicks. I am sure Ckret will see this in a different light but my specialty is science and know there was order within disorder in these events. There is a long list of things which could have happened but did not happen and Cooper and his agenda are central to that. That's really all I want to say ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6683 December 28, 2008 Quote yeah it's good stuff. But I thought we touched on this a little bit already. I know that the high numbers of smokejumpers recruited was already discussed. (from articles at the smokejumpers.com site). I thought they mostly were kickers though. I only found one case of a smokejumper involved in the insertion program. I thought the MACV-SOG guys led those teams, mostly, or always?. There was one guy with smokejumper background who was higher up in the organization I think. But I don't think the insertion teams were part-time smokejumper work? (edit) just air drops of various kinds. Although there were mentions of "special projects", left undefined. Orange1: the stuff on Intermountain is interesting. I never pursued the details of what they worked on at Marana. Be interesting to know more. Also: if you can find if the smokejumpers did anything other than act as kickers, that would be interesting. (edit) and you saw the pic of the insertion team smokedumper outfit I posted right? So they must have been some passing of technology/knowledge. Yeah, saw the pic - the small guy? The bit about smokejumpers' experience in landing in rough terrain implied they did a lot more than just kicking. Having said that so far my searches don't show insertion, but either kicker or loadmaster work. Put some links below, I have some other stuff I need to do now but will continue the search later, there are some promising links to investigate... This article from smokejumper.com is interesting - one of the Intermountain guys who dropped loads in SE Asia and then worked as a smokejumper in fire season: http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=353&magazine_editions_id=24 The article notes that the jumpers who worked directly with the CIA were from Missoula and McCall (as per previous link) but that the ones who worked for Air America were from all the bases. This guy - still missing - was working as a cargo kicker. http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=258&magazine_editions_id=7 In WW2 there "smokejumpers" meant something else... "its conversion from a highly trained and combat ready parachute unit to the extremely dangerous role of "smoke jumping" " http://www.thedropzone.org/training/smokejmp.html Background on the Triple Nickles:http://www.thedropzone.org/training/555.html [url]Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6684 December 28, 2008 A relatively lengthy extract from a longer article, which also includes stuff on their role in defoliation - they prevented forest fires in the US and started them in Vietnam. Quote The Vietnam War, however, saw a wider array of Forest Service participation in military activities than ever before. In Vietnam, Forest Service responsibilities expanded to include, as Ronald Hartzer and David Clary wrote in their 1981 history, "support of both civilian and military interests in forest management, fire control and employment, and defoliation." The full extent of Forest Service involvement has not been fully exploredby historians. Some Forest Service personnel in Vietnam worked with or for the Central Intelligence Agency; others worked with the military on defoliation projects; still others conducted logging operations for USAID. The CIA-Forest Service connection is the least known of the Forest Service's involvement in Vietnam. The CIA began hiring Forest Service personnel for its paramilitary operations in the early years of the Cold War and used them in operations around the world for the next three decades. The quasi-military culture of the post-World War Two Forest Service made its employees attractive to CIA recruiters. Smokejumpers were especially sought after because they already had training in parachuting and air delivery techniques in rough terrain to fight fires, and they were fit and adventurous. Several quickly found work with the CIA as "cargo kickers," men who pushed supplies out of cargo planes, just as they had pushed supplies out of Forest Service planes to firefighters. Smokejumpers liked working for the CIA because they could jump fires in the United States during the summer and train foreign jumpers or fly overseas missions the rest of the year. The CIA also operated private airlines such as Air America to carry out its covert missions, and needed experienced pilots, cargo handlers, and maintenance crews to staff them. Again, the agency turned to Forest Service Smokejumpers and pilots. Air America moved equipment and personnel around Southeast Asia when using U.S. military aircraft was undesirable. "Undesirable" sometimes meant flying where the U.S. military was not supposed to be, like in Thailand or Laos. Source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3854/is_200607/ai_n17173820/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1 btw Georger hope more smokejumper links don't elicit more of the same response from you Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phildthedildo 0 #6685 December 28, 2008 thom lyons' website is chock full of info BUT i have seen several inaccuracies when it comes to people and places that we are both familiar with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #6686 December 28, 2008 Quote Snow, All really good points. Especially why would they publicize the "disguised" version? I have to think its problematic to jump with glasses. What do you do, cover them with goggles?? Or do you pull them out and put them on once your under chute? Whuffo wants to know.... Tom I've been out of town and am just now catching up. If someone else answered already... #1 no goggles- tie strap on glasses, doesn't work for long freefalls. #2 Bigger goggles that go over glasses. #3 Prescription lense goggles- about $100 out of the back of Parachutist."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6687 December 28, 2008 I'm thinking Cooper's appearance didn't sync with any smokejumper+vietnam experience when he was in his 40's. and they weren't doing it so much when he was younger? I'm thinking he would have been described as having a more "physical" kind of appearance if he was actively involved in stuff like that then? It would have been rough work. I'm still thinking civilian, maybe in SE Asia for some other role though, for a bunch of reasons (grudge, difficulty in finding him afterwards, secrecy, jump experience outside of US) Or just a local WA guy like Ckret's original profile. Maybe he really did have no skydiving experience, even going back as far as '62. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6688 December 28, 2008 Quoteno goggles- tie strap on glasses, doesn't work for long freefalls. I made about fifty jumps with my sunglasses held firmly on to my head with daisy chained packing rubber bands. No goggles were worn over them. On jump 51 one lens blew out of its mounting ending my clever experiment. It was kinda hard figuring out where to flare with no depth perception. I moved my head from side to side to get some semblance of stereo vision with my one good eye and it worked: soft standup landing. Now I have a pair of those cheap Rx goggles Joe mentioned and they work fine. Cost only $79. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6689 December 28, 2008 There's always the possibility Cooper was involved in some desk role in this whole CIA/Marana/smokejumper thing..maybe a wannabe or something. It does make one think about what the FBI meant when they said they investigated any possible military/CIA connection and dismissed it. It would be nice if the FBI had done a formal request with the CIA to review anyone connected with the programs in the '60s and '70s and it came up clean..i.e. everyone accounted for. It's not clear whether the CIA would have given FBI any info then...if not, the idea that the FBI checked out CIA/military and discounted it, would be false. Now Ckret etc could dismiss the connection based on some interpretation of "evidence" or "behavior". But we've been over that enough to know how weak it is. The FBI thought it made sense to interview a five foot tall guy. It would seem looking at these other possibly weakly-supported theories would make sense too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #6690 December 28, 2008 btw Georger hope more smokejumper links don't elicit more of the same response from you define, send me a PM G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6691 December 28, 2008 It has been said many times on this forum that the FBI Cooper sketch is sort of an everyman look, implying that many faces would be a decent match. There was a huge buzz among jumpers at my DZ about Cooper. I am sure it was the same at DZs all over when the news came out. We all were speculating wildly coming up with suspects who were big risk takers, financially strapped and about the right age and height. We weren't planning on turning anyone in, we just wanted to figure out who did it. We figured it HAD to be a jumper of some kind, probably a skydiver. Trouble was that we couldn't come up with anyone who looked like the sketch. I don't think many people do look like that sketch. The fine features (e.g. delicate nose) aren't all that common. Look at how narrow the nose is in proportion to the face. How many men do you know who have a nose like that? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6692 December 28, 2008 Quote btw Georger hope more smokejumper links don't elicit more of the same response from you define, send me a PM G[/reply I think G's comments were intended for Jo not you O. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6693 December 28, 2008 hey orange1, I know you could tell georger just misposted...although with georger's attitudes to women, you know how men can get messed up when they keep it bottled up! Hey here's some interesting Marana stuff. It was probably after 1971, but it's interesting for history's sake: from http://www.bollyn.com/index/?id=10684 Our buddy Doole ended up there after Air America shut down. "In 1976, Evergreen hired George Arntzen Doole Jr., the man who had created and run the CIA's global air proprietary system, as a $20,000-a-year consultant. Within a year the new airline had its first military contract." "Interesting planes showed up regularly at Marana. One that came in for maintenance work was a private Boeing 727 jetliner owned by the Occidental Petroleum Co. and used by its chairman, Armand Hammer. The plane has made many trips to the Soviet Union, where Hammer had enjoyed a unique relationship with Kremlin leaders going all the way back to V.I. Lenin. Another plane that rolled through Evergreen's shops was a Lockheed L-100 owned by Idi Amin Dada, the Ugandan president-for-life who later fled into exile accused of murdering more than 150,000 Ugandan citizens and of practicing cannibalism." ... A. E. "Schnozz'' Mayer, Evergreen Air Center's customer representative, said he didn't remember exactly what was done to Amin's plane there, except that it involved interior work. < there were questions about whether Amin's plane could have been bugged> on finances: ""I spent my whole time at Evergreen just scraping up money,'' he said. "I thought I was going to work for a $10 million manufacturing company, but it never had more than $300,000 worth of accounts receivable. "I kept saying to them, 'If you guys know something I don't, now's the time to tell me. Because I've got $7,000 in the bank, and a $14,000 light bill's due tomorrow.' '' Fulton said he was intrigued at such times to get telephone calls from the bank informing him that more money -- $500,000 on one occasion -- had been pumped into the air center's account. He said he assumed it was from one of the other Evergreen companies." ... "Close to Sierra Pacific was a parachute club, Marana Sky Divers Inc., run by Tony Frost. Frost said he had been "around'' the base during the Intermountain era but had worked for another company." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #6694 December 28, 2008 I'm still thinking civilian, maybe in SE Asia for some other role though, for a bunch of reasons (grudge, difficulty in finding him afterwards, secrecy, jump experience outside of US) Or just a local WA guy like Ckret's original profile. Maybe he really did have no skydiving experience, even going back as far as '62. somebody on the fringe watching as in the movie "Taxi" (1976). Somebody who thought he could do it vrs. real experience. Original FBI thought: a copycat to the hijack 2 weeks earlier. But, the word Grudge implies a long thought process. Time to think and be motivated to do this. Time to think and plan. Then something takes it from thinking to doing. Ckret thinks this was random. I dont. Its too perfect to be random. Ckret sees this as just like any other hijacking. I dont. It is rather clear he did not know the crew before he got on board. But he picked a particular day, particular flight time of day, and only one flight (in that area) fit those criteria and that flight had only been added recently. These solid hits take it out of the realm of randomness. He picked that flight because it fit his plan. This is an organised guy, compared to most. His primary tools were opportunity and keeping order and bluff. Ckret will disagree. He let the system do all the work. We have to take the no-bomb theory seriously which says the only real risk was to himself and he was willing to take that risk on. (unless he had a concealed weapon which we will never know). Maybe "this guy" thought that road flares were just as lethal on an airplane as dynamite. There's a novel thought! That idea goes to competence and fits with Ckret's idea of Cooper. But this is a guy who is using the system against itself and that is his primary weapon. He is betting the system will act in a certain way, and it did. He needs to do this rather quickly before the system can get orgnised and retaliate, or pople change their minds or examine things too closely. It is essential that he get people off the plane and isolate himself from prying eyes. But he almost has to do this between the time 305 has lifted off at SEA and before it can land anywhere else, or the weather breaks, or any of the other variables which could lead to him being apprehended kicks. I am sure Ckret will see this in a different light but my specialty is science and know there was order within disorder in these events. There is a long list of things which could have happened but did not happen and Cooper and his agenda are central to that. That's really all I want to say ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6695 December 28, 2008 It's interesting that Cooper took the tie off. It wasn't necessary to take the tie off to put the rig on. Jumpers have commented on how it would be a bad thing to jump with a tie. (flapping) But we don't say "that shows jump experience". We say "just a random event". Now you could say "if he knew enough to take off the tie, why wear it in the first place?" It might betray some thinking about trying not to look like someone with jump experience. i.e. wear his normal work clothes. The wraparound sunglasses seem out of sync with the rest of outfit. Did they reveal something more about Cooper? Motorcycle guy? jumper? They interviewed Whitney because he liked to wear dark sunglasses in the NW. Was it an "attitude" thing with jumpers? OR: Did Cooper perceive that there was something about his eyes that would be the main revealing feature...something more memorable than a tattoo? Could his eyes have had a droop or asymmetry that was more pronounced then the sketches showed? Was the main feature Cooper needed to disguise, his eyes/eyelids/something behind the shades? (in his own view) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6696 December 28, 2008 I like Georger's thinking on this. This hijack was rather low on the entropy scale the way I see it. Cooper didn't really care where the plane landed, he was just interested in an exit over familiar territory and he apparently accomplished that in spite of setbacks (fueling delays, no stairs down takeoff, etc). It shows planning and knowledge. Some luck too. I sure wish I had a definite yes or no on his alleged examination of the packing cards. Very few people outside of jumpers and riggers even know where to look. Some acro and glider pilots do, but few others. I don't know whether kickers knew this. Maybe some did. I think to a kicker a chute is just hardware, like his safety harness. He isn't very interested in the details. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #6697 December 28, 2008 QuoteIt has been said many times on this forum that the FBI Cooper sketch is sort of an everyman look, implying that many faces would be a decent match. There was a huge buzz among jumpers at my DZ about Cooper. I am sure it was the same at DZs all over when the news came out. We all were speculating wildly coming up with suspects who were big risk takers, financially strapped and about the right age and height. We weren't planning on turning anyone in, we just wanted to figure out who did it. We figured it HAD to be a jumper of some kind, probably a skydiver. Trouble was that we couldn't come up with anyone who looked like the sketch. I don't think many people do look like that sketch. The fine features (e.g. delicate nose) aren't all that common. Look at how narrow the nose is in proportion to the face. How many men do you know who have a nose like that? 377 I think there is a profound misunderstanding on Ms. Weber's part about how LE and FBI sketches are made and how the original Cooper sketches were made. This is another reason I brought up biometrics although (and its a total mystery to me why!) nobody seems to want to discuss it, even though it is fundamental to this or any other criminal case. Artists render a subject using standardised sets of anatomical features. Artists are trained to do this. There is a vast amount of statistical research which validates this method. The method is no accident. Attached are standardised sets of ears, noses, etc. It was from such biometric sets of standardised features that the Cooper sketches were assembled and then refined based on witness testimony. Such renderings have proven over and over to be useful tools in subject recognition, and there is a vast well documented science to prove it. (My first job while doing my PhD was as a test designer for Vocational Rehabilitation based on my background in Ed Psych Measurement and in other academic areas). Ckret can correct this if he wants, he is alway free to do so, but I would be very surprised if the FBI sketches were not arrived at using these standard methods based on witnesses testimony which was cross-checked numerous times. And in fact, Ckret has already spoken to this issue here, a long time ago. Jo may wish to quibble with that, others may question the process, but the FBI really is a body of professionals who use valid methods as best any body of human beings can. I would bank more on the original FBI sketches of Cooper being more valid, than anything our Ms. Weber has to offer or comment about. It is true, during a tv production with Ms. Schafner years later, an artist from the (Los Angeles PD?) did a new drawing. That rendering is remarkably similar to the original FBI rendering. It preserves and illustrates the very same features which the original FBI drawing did, and why?" Because the same basic techniques of rendering still apply using the same sets of standardised biometric features. Measurements would settle this matter for anyone wishing to know. It would be a huge mistake, in my opinion, for anyone to dismiss the original FBI drawings. Those drawings need to be examined even more closely, as 377 has just done, not less closely as Ms. Weber so vehemently contends. I am uploading a few standardised features sets used by one law enforecment forensics dept I know. In addition, I am loading two standardised emotional plates which have been shown to be universally accepted cross culturally as representing the emotions listed on those plates. (It is also well documented that certain sounds and musical strains also envoke universal responses in our species. These matters are genetically grounded! Believe it. It's true.) Georger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6698 December 28, 2008 QuoteIt's interesting that Cooper took the tie off. It wasn't necessary to take the tie off to put the rig on. Jumpers have commented on how it would be a bad thing to jump with a tie. (flapping) But we don't say "that shows jump experience". We say "just a random event". Now you could say "if he knew enough to take off the tie, why wear it in the first place?" It might betray some thinking about trying not to look like someone with jump experience. i.e. wear his normal work clothes. The wraparound sunglasses seem out of sync with the rest of outfit. Did they reveal something more about Cooper? Motorcycle guy? jumper? They interviewed Whitney because he liked to wear dark sunglasses in the NW. Was it an "attitude" thing with jumpers? OR: Did Cooper perceive that there was something about his eyes that would be the main revealing feature...something more memorable than a tattoo? Could his eyes have had a droop or asymmetry that was more pronounced then the sketches showed? Was the main feature Cooper needed to disguise, his eyes/eyelids/something behind the shades? (in his own view) But then wouldn't he have been more likely to keep them on when in close proximity to the stewardesses who would have been more likely to take notice of him, than say with the check-in clerk who wouldn't have had any reason to take particular notice of him?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6699 December 28, 2008 QuoteI sure wish I had a definite yes or no on his alleged examination of the packing cards. Very few people outside of jumpers and riggers even know where to look. Some acro and glider pilots do, but few others. I don't know whether kickers knew this. Maybe some did. I think to a kicker a chute is just hardware, like his safety harness. He isn't very interested in the details. 377 Unless the kicker had also been a smokejumper? This may have been asked and answered before, but what rigs did smokejumpers use in the 60s/early 70s - were they military SL rigs? And was there much difference between SL and freefall rigs (other than the obvious) in those days, or were they like where i did my SL training, where the same training rigs could be packed for either SL or ripcord opening?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6700 December 28, 2008 Georger, just because something is not discussed does not mean it is dismissed - I thought the points on biometrics were very valid, but I had nothing to add. (Other than pointing out that if someone argues against comparing a photo to a sketch, they should be consistent in that view and not rely on the Vegas stuff to back them up.) I've already posted that I would be more inclined to trust sketches done just after the incident than those done years later (whether 2 or 10 years - memories do fade and become faulty over time), as well as posting that link to the training forensic artists undergo - which surprised me in how exacting it was. (And yes I did realise the reply was not meant for me, hence the - though it did take me aback at first!) Someone made the point about the nose and it has already been noted the features were quite fine, almost feminine. It was also pointed out Cooper seemed quite slim/thin. In my experience thinner guys often have more "delicate" features and yes I'm sure there are many exceptions but just my 2c worth. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
