DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

good post georger on the sketch issue.

the software modelling tool I used basically just automates everything you said.

That's why I can use sliders to create smiles, frowns, etc, from the same basic head model.

It's also why we're starting to see more and more realistic human face modeling in Disney or other animation movies, and especially in 3D games. Much of the new software for animating humans is driven by the 3D game market.

Basically it's all numbers, measurements, shapes and statistics, and the physics of how skin moves when stretched, and what muscles move to convey certain emotions between humans.

It's not about the artistry of a sketch artist..they're just intrepreting all that using the tools they have. But now there are better tools. (emerging)

Sketches should be boring, and about generalities. Unless there are specific pock marks, asymetries etc.

I guess we're told the witnesses didn't report any specifics like that, that we can intuit from the sketch? So we should focus on generalities from the sketch. Anything that seems specific, is likely just a side-effect of the sketch process?

The lack of specifics also doesn't mean there weren't any. There could have been something, that the witnesses didn't catch.

[snowmman 3]

3 Doors Down
"Behind Those Eyes"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfv6cZ8a7ks

I just hooked up better speakers to my computer.
Life is better loud.

[Orange1 0]

Snow was asking about older jumpers finding people. There's a thread in incidents where someone involved was mentioned by name and recocgnised by another jumper as someone he jumped with in 1970. (fyi jumper is in his late 60s.)

Some interesting snippets out a wiki article:

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In 1940, two U.S. Forestry Service Smokejumpers, Earl Cooley and Rufus Robinson, showed that parachutists could be placed very accurately onto the ground using the newly-invented 'steerable parachute.' These parachutes and the techniques smokejumpers used with them were completely different from the techniques used by Army airborne units.

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In early 1942 May asked for volunteers from his civilian servicing crew, and about a dozen agreed to join. With basically no equipment, the instruction consisted of "jump and pull" and windage was calculated by throwing an Eaton's catalogue out the door. Early operations were comical, but in early 1943 May sent two volunteers, Owen Hargreaves and Scotty Thompson to the smoke jumpers school in Missoula, Montana to be trained by the U.S. Forestry Service. After six weeks they returned home with borrowed steerable equipment to train two other volunteers, Wilfred Rivet and Laurie Poulsom. Soon the unit was conducting operational jumps, and by 1944 May's persistence had paid off and an official para-rescue training program started.

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The China-Burma-India Theater (CBI) was the birthplace of what would eventually become pararescue. Here was a unique combination of long overland flights through territory that was loosely held by the enemy and survivable. .....Capt. John L. 'Blackie' Porter - a former stunt pilot - is credited with commanding the first organized air rescue unit in the theater. Known as "Blackie's Gang" and flying out of Chabua, India, they were equipped with two C-47 aircraft. One of their first rescue missions was the recovery of twenty people who had bailed out of a stricken C-46 in August of 1943 in the Naga area of Burma; an area that contained not just Japanese troops, but tribes of head hunters as well. Among the twenty was CBS reporter Eric Sevareid. The men were located and supplies were dropped to them. The wing flight surgeon Lt. Col. Don Flickinger, and two combat surgical technicians, Sgt. Harold Passey and Cpl. William MacKenzie, parachuted from the search planes to assist and care for the injured. At the same time, a ground team was sent to their location and all twenty walked to safety.

Although parachute rescues were not officially authorized at the time, this is considered by PJs to be the birth of Air Force pararescue.

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Pararescue teams were authorized on July 1, 1947, with the first teams to be ready for fielding in November. Each team was to be composed of a para-doctor and four pararescue technicians trained in medicine, survival, rescue and tactics. Pararescue was given the mission of rescuing crews lost on long-range bomber and transport missions and to support other agencies when aerial rescue was requested.

A mission earlier in 1947 was the final impetus for the formal creation of Air Force Pararescue. In May, Dr. (Capt.) Pope B. 'Doc' Holliday parachuted out of an OA-10 Catalina into the Nicaraguan jungle to aid a crewmember who had parachuted from a crippled B-17 Flying Fortress. His actions earned him the Bronze Star and made him another of pararescue's early legends.

Shortly after Pararescue teams were authorized, the 5th Rescue Squadron conducted the first Pararescue and Survival School at MacDill Air Force Base in Florida. The core of instructors were experienced officers and enlisted men who were recruited from all branches of service.

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the Korean Conflict. This was an opportunity for Air Rescue to put training into practice and to develop theories into policies. One of the key new concepts was rescue of stranded personnel from behind enemy lines. This, along with evacuating critically wounded men from aid stations close to the front, were Air Rescue's primary missions.

Pararescuemen were a normal part of Air Rescue crews for these missions. Their medical and tactical skills made them invaluable for evacuation and rescue missions of this type.

The training program for pararescue is described, and along with a whole bunch of other stuff includes both SL and freefall training. Freefall training includes 2 night jumps.

The Wiki article is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_Pararescue
Curiously, there is a subheading of "Vietnam conflict" but nothing in it...though the article mentions a number of medals awarded for various actions in SE Asia, and also

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Many Pararescuemen tattoo green footprints on their body. This tradition arose during the Vietnam War...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I have a bunch of pictures from the papers around the time of the 1963 Nationals at Issaquah. They're all nice.

here's one, that I think is 1963..maybe a little earlier. Jim Schultz jumping. Overhead shot, so you can see Issaquah down below. Jump is at 5000 ft?

Can someone name the rig? my untrained eye says it looks like the nb-6's but those weren't common surplus containers in use? Would it be more likely a b-4? can you tell?

I'll attach another that has Emrich, just so you can see what he looked like '63 (since his name is associated with Issaquah, but we've never posted a photo)

I'm pretty sure I noted the source correctly in the jpg names, although I remember being lazy the day I grabbed these.

[snowmman 3]

Who out there remembers Bill Wade from back in '63?

picture with caption attached.

Too young looking, but I'm guessing no one out there is going to recognize the name. I didn't google, so I have no idea if he continued jumping.

Be really cool if someone out there actually knew him!

better, less-frazzled pic of Emrich back in '63 also attached

[ltdiver 3]

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Snow was asking about older jumpers finding people. There's a thread in incidents where someone involved was mentioned by name and recocgnised by another jumper as someone he jumped with in 1970. (fyi jumper is in his late 60s.)

LOL . Sky's -way- too short to be DB Cooper.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[snowmman 3]

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Snow was asking about older jumpers finding people. There's a thread in incidents where someone involved was mentioned by name and recocgnised by another jumper as someone he jumped with in 1970. (fyi jumper is in his late 60s.)

LOL . Sky's -way- too short to be DB Cooper.

ltdiver

Guys in their 60's are FNG's in the Cooper saga.
Cooper would be early '80s? now.

Gotta get used to the concept that the people considered "old timers" at DZ.com were probably young sprouts next to Cooper (in terms of age)...if Cooper had any jump experience in the 60's.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

I still believe Cooper had a plan. I think he somehow knew that the stairs could be opened in flight.

Cooper knew he'd get what he wanted. Policy at that time was to give them what they wanted, keep the hostages safe, and try to catch them when they left the plane.
There was no such thing as Delta Force, FBI Hostage Rescue Team or any of that stuff back then (Even SWAT was in its infancy). The idea of trying to rescue the hostages came about after (during) the 72 Munich Olympic debacle.

Even today, handing a bank teller a note claiming to have a gun will get you the money. You don't really need the gun. Same policy.

As far as the drawings go, the ears, and especially the nose don't match Weber. If they did the Identikit template, and got it right (both are "ifs"), that is a big vote against Weber.

You said that Space-time are warped inversely by the "Weber Effect". Would that have any effect on the speed of jumping to conclusions? Or would the speed of jumping to conclusions have an effect on space-time?
Last thing- I bet Ckret is really busy these days. There's lots of people that are preoccupied with skin pigmentation in the Pacific Northwest, and Jan 20 is coming fast.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[snowmman 3]

it's always funny seeing random coincidences in this Cooper thing.

Jo likes to imply that since the CIA was involved in their own insurance companies, and Duane was in insurance, that walla! connection.

Under the guys selling insurance for the Issaquah area nowadays:

http://www.backfence.com/find/issaquah-king-county-wa/insurance/

Duane Weber Insurance
1275 12th Ave Nw, Issaquah WA 98027
www.duaneweberinsurance.com
(his site isn't up any more, but his listing is there at that link and elsewhere)

The internet wayback archive has a copy of his old web site in 2006 here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060114023108/http://www.duaneweberinsurance.com/
says "serving your insurance needs for over 25 years"
I bet. Probably more like 37!

on his "about us" page he says:
"As a locally owned and operated agency serving south King County since 1976,"
Yeah, and I know how he got the seed money in '76!

He's gotta either be CIA, a hijacker, an ex-MACV-SOG para-rescue guy, a smokejumping kicker, a night clerk, a helicopter pilot or mechanic, a 4x4-driving sumofabitch.......

Or: maybe he just sells insurance in Issaquah?

nah!

[ltdiver 3]

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Snow was asking about older jumpers finding people. There's a thread in incidents where someone involved was mentioned by name and recocgnised by another jumper as someone he jumped with in 1970. (fyi jumper is in his late 60s.)

LOL . Sky's -way- too short to be DB Cooper.

ltdiver

Guys in their 60's are FNG's in the Cooper saga.
Cooper would be early '80s? now.

Gotta get used to the concept that the people considered "old timers" at DZ.com were probably young sprouts next to Cooper (in terms of age)...if Cooper had any jump experience in the 60's.

Sky is 72 years old. Compared to the rest of us "-we- are the FNG's".

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[snowmman 3]

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Sky is 72 years old. Compared to the rest of us "-we- are the FNG's".

ltdiver

hi ltdiver. Yeah I know. I'm just trying to be a little funny. See I think there's a well-placed deference to the older folks here, which I've wondered if it actually works against the DBC "whodunnit" thinking...cause we think we've got all possible useful info, when we don't.

It goes back to me wondering why Cossey's thoughts were considered the center point for discussion back in '71. He was at the prime of competitive jumping, and in his 30's? So not really the matching the profile, or representative of the majority of the participants (if he represented the top end)

I've not seen a post from anyone who jumped Issaquah in '62 and '63 on this thread. Till that happens, I think it's right for this whuffo to say: FNG's!
it means nothing about me. It's just the data speaking.

[Orange1 0]

  Quote

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Snow was asking about older jumpers finding people. There's a thread in incidents where someone involved was mentioned by name and recocgnised by another jumper as someone he jumped with in 1970. (fyi jumper is in his late 60s.)

LOL . Sky's -way- too short to be DB Cooper.

ltdiver

I wasn't suggesting he was - just testing Snow's theory on how hard it is to track down older jumpers. I put his age in because he is at least 10-15 years too young!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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I've not seen a post from anyone who jumped Issaquah in '62 and '63 on this thread. Till that happens, I think it's right for this whuffo to say: FNG's!

You haven't and won't see a lot of the older guys posting on this thread. You seem to think that because none of the older jumpers answer when you ask "Did anybody jump at xxx time and place?" that there isn't an answer.
Read the end of the first thread. There is a lot of animostiy towards Cooperites (or are we Coopernicans?).
Many skydivers seem to resent the publicity given to this one jump wonder. Others resent the way this thread has attracted and been populated by whuffos. Quade was under a lot of heat to end this thread. I don't know if he still is or not.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Orange1 0]

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I've not seen a post from anyone who jumped Issaquah in '62 and '63 on this thread. Till that happens, I think it's right for this whuffo to say: FNG's!
it means nothing about me. It's just the data speaking.

A lot of the skydivers got bored or antagonistic with this thread.

People on dz.com jumped Issaquah in the 60s. Maybe you don't get the year exact, but for example: (don't go bugging Jerry now, y'hear?)

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3003415;search_string=Issaquah%20;#3003415

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2294937;search_string=Issaquah%20;#2294937

here he wasn't there that early but knew about stuff that happened in 63: (in another post he says he started jumping in early 64, pretty close no?)
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3229420;search_string=Issaquah%20;#3229420

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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I've not seen a post from anyone who jumped Issaquah in '62 and '63 on this thread. Till that happens, I think it's right for this whuffo to say: FNG's!

You haven't and won't see a lot of the older guys posting on this thread. You seem to think that because none of the older jumpers answer when you ask "Did anybody jump at xxx time and place?" that there isn't an answer.
Read the end of the first thread. There is a lot of animostiy towards Cooperites (or are we Coopernicans?).
Many skydivers seem to resent the publicity given to this one jump wonder. Others resent the way this thread has attracted and been populated by whuffos. Quade was under a lot of heat to end this thread. I don't know if he still is or not.

Whatever. Why should I care about people who don't post to this thread? I'm not a skydiver. People get to do whatever they want. Hell I'd encourage it.

Do I care what other people think? No.
Does it affect whether I might miss out on some good nuggest of info? Probably.
But people contribute for their own reasons. Me being nice or not nice or kissing butt has nothing to do with it.

Look at Ckret. He's got info we won't get no matter how much we kiss butt. People always have constraints. Doesn't bother me.

There's usually multiple ways to get any nugget of info. If not, oh well! That's Cooperology!

Personally, I gotta laugh if there are old guys trying to keep the mythology of 70's counterculture/outlaw us-them thinking alive nowadays, if that's what you're getting at. Hell everyone was counterculture then. Skydivers didn't have some rights of ownership to being "on the fringe".

Off-soapbox.

[snowmman 3]

you know, it's not me who stood around getting their picture taken for the newspapers in the '60s, so I can snip them today. From my point of view, that was pretty weird.

There are plenty of other fringes out there that didn't stand around posing!

So...I don't buy any self-righteousness.

If I'm off base, set me straight.

[snowmman 3]

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You haven't and won't see a lot of the older guys posting on this thread. You seem to think that because none of the older jumpers answer when you ask "Did anybody jump at xxx time and place?" that there isn't an answer.

Hi wolfriverjoe:
nope. All I think is: Question. No answer. Oh well, no information that way. Move on to the next thought.

A better question you might ask yourself: Why do you think my questions make sense or don't make sense, in probing '60s skydive history?

How do you make a decision? Or do you not think about it really, and just like pointing out my weaknesses?

I really don't get it. How do you jumpers make a decision about whether all possible Coopers in the jump community have been looked at? Is the answer that you just don't think about it?

I understand the philosophy that Cooperites are bottom of the barrel waste-cases. But anyone reading this thread is part of the bottom feeding. So you can't point fingers. You're part of it if you're reading this.

[Orange1 0]

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Personally, I gotta laugh if there are old guys trying to keep the mythology of 70's counterculture/outlaw us-them thinking alive nowadays, if that's what you're getting at. Hell everyone was counterculture then. Skydivers didn't have some rights of ownership to being "on the fringe".

Off-soapbox.

Whose idea was it that it was "counter culture"?I'm sure then, as now, most people jumped because they love jumping, not to be counterculture. I'm sure there were a few (as there are now) who revel in that aspect but it's not a good reason to fling yourself out of a plane. I'm sure there were a number of whuffos who thought it was counterculture without knowing any skydivers to prove them wrong (I still get the odd person saying to me "but you don't look like a skydiver"...and they are surprised to hear we come from all walks of life) Seems like there was also a lot of crossover with military jumpers in those days (possibly more than now but I don't know how to look for substantiation) which would reduce the "counterculture" aspect further.
This has nothing to do with Cooper, unless you take the view that he was a skydiver and either (1) he was in a suit to disguise his "counterculture" background or (2) he wore suits anyway when he wasn't jumping, and this made him quite normal for the times.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 256]

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Georger, just because something is not discussed does not mean it is dismissed - I thought the points on biometrics were very valid, but I had nothing to add. (Other than pointing out that if someone argues against comparing a photo to a sketch, they should be consistent in that view and not rely on the Vegas stuff to back them up.)

I've already posted that I would be more inclined to trust sketches done just after the incident than those done years later (whether 2 or 10 years - memories do fade and become faulty over time), as well as posting that link to the training forensic artists undergo - which surprised me in how exacting it was.

(And yes I did realise the reply was not meant for me, hence the - though it did take me aback at first!)

Someone made the point about the nose and it has already been noted the features were quite fine, almost feminine. It was also pointed out Cooper seemed quite slim/thin. In my experience thinner guys often have more "delicate" features and yes I'm sure there are many exceptions but just my 2c worth.

Thanks Orange. It was 377 who brought out the
thin nose. And I may have something worthwhile
for the group, if it goes full course.

A friend of mine has tentativley agreed to allow
his corporation's Security Dept to evaluate photos
and renderings of Cooper, Weber, McCoy, Gosset,
or anyone else using their facial and body recognition system, used widely throughout
the USA and the world. A formal report would be
issued at the end of the evaluation, and posted
here.

So, if anyone has photos or renderings they wish
to be included for evaluation - NOW IS THE TIME. Please post them at this Forum or send me a PM, soon.

Otherwise I intend to supply photos and renderings
from my own collection.

Now is the time . . .

I hope this will help and go smoothly.

All of this will be free.

Georger

[georger 256]

You said that Space-time are warped inversely by the "Weber Effect". Would that have any effect on the speed of jumping to conclusions? Or would the speed of jumping to conclusions have an effect on space-time?
Reply> Im going to decline to answer. Im in my serious mode >

Answer: All of the above you cited. Thanks!

George

[Orange1 0]

... i get THIS as a google ad on the sidebar!?
I am inclined to blame Snow and 377

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Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

orange1 said:
"I'm sure there were a number of whuffos who thought it was counterculture without knowing any skydivers to prove them wrong"

I've never talked to a jumper. Never saw a jump. My only reading about jumping is from this thread and a couple others here at DZ.com and various web pages I read while researching for Cooper.

So yeah, I may be totally way off base.

Hey on a positive note, I really liked reading these safety articles Jan had written for Sport Parachutist's Safety Journal in the '90s.
http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/index.html
Gave me some more insight into just what all is going on when you're a jumper.

I've always wondered about how you guys interact with technology as a key part of the sport, and how you improve that technology or manage it etc. Like for instance what are the root cause issues, that make you still require reserves? I see you guys root cause events that cause injury and death, but it would seem prudent to be root causing all reserve deployments and treating them as failures just as severely.

It'd be interesting to see the number of reserve deployments per year, and whether that correlates to injuries in any way. From what you guys have said, it probably doesn't, confirming there are human decisions that are causing injuries.

Just as I don't know you guys, you guys can be pretty off base in your understanding of what whuffos think about, when they think about your sport, at least in my case.

(edit) with respect to jumpers' attitudes about discussing Cooper. Yeah, I guess I really don't get why anyone would have any passionate opinion that talk is bad. So, yeah, obviously I'm clueless about that issue.

[snowmman 3]

  Quote

A friend of mine has tentativley agreed to allow
his corporation's Security Dept to evaluate photos
and renderings of Cooper, Weber, McCoy, Gosset,
or anyone else using their facial and body recognition system, used widely throughout
the USA and the world. A formal report would be
issued at the end of the evaluation, and posted
here.

This sounds interesting. We can churn up information, and I always had thought the process would be that Ckret would do something and give us feedback, but it seems that was naive thinking because of constraints Ckret has to operate under.

Do you think you could do a pass first on existing photos, like those at Sluggo's poll, which has some ringers?

It'd be good to shake out the system and see what you get. Can you run all of sluggo's 9 thru and provide a report?

I guess I'm wondering how much work it is and how many passes your friend would hang in for, and whether the results actually are meaningful.

(edit) I'm thinking about my brag of a collection of lots of '60s-era photos. Even if there's no "suspect" it might be interesting finding a picture that correlates to the sketch..as it might help jostle the memories better..i.e. Cooper could be a guy who looks like this photo...as opposed to "looks like this sketch".

[Orange1 0]

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I see you guys root cause events that cause injury and death, but it would seem prudent to be root causing all reserve deployments and treating them as failures just as severely.

I'm not sure about the US, but here every reserve deployment requires an incident form to be filled out. So yes, we do.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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I see you guys root cause events that cause injury and death, but it would seem prudent to be root causing all reserve deployments and treating them as failures just as severely.

I'm not sure about the US, but here every reserve deployment requires an incident form to be filled out. So yes, we do.

How many reserve deployments are there in the US per year? I would guess there must be 2000 or so every year? is it increasing or decreasing wrt to # of jumps per year? Does it correlate to the # of new jumpers per year or what does it correlate to? Is the rate static annually?

I got to thinking about these issues, because there's a lot of skydiving videos on Youtube, and I know there's a selection bias, because people like to show off the screwups both as education and amusement...but it actually got me wondering if the number of "screwups" is higher than the sport as a whole really tracks...and that things like youtube where a broader cross-section of participants post crazy stuff, shows stuff happening that doesn't get discussed in the more rarefied forums like magazines and DZ.com.

Just wondering. I see these videos and think WTF?