georger 256
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377 22
I can expand on this theme if anyone wants,
otherwise Im going to drop it.
Georger
Don't drop it Georger. Let's hear some more. Cooper did succeed in a BIG social engineering task. EVERYBODY did his bidding from pilots to rigger to bank officials etc. He needed a lot of compliance and cooperation and he got it. Asking for 4 chutes was pure genius if he did it to make them worry about one of the crew being forced to jump with him. It maximized the chances that all main chutes would be jumpable.
What does this tell us about Cooper? Was he a schmoozer or a boss type or ?? Saying he had a bomb and showing it was smarter than using a gun or the threat of a gun. With a gun the FBI would have figured if they shot him, game over. With a bomb you can't be so sure. Cooper kept everyone worried about the crew's safety and that worked really well for him.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
Instead it would be "nude
grizzly bear fighting" or some other "sport", or
cliff jumping.
So can we say BASE jumping is regressive? I am looking for any excuse not to do it.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
We've gone back and forth on who got what bills back in 1986 after the court decision. Actually it was me wondering about the count, based on video snaps.
I just ran into a news article which says the court agreement in 1986 would have the FBI get $280 ...i.e. 14 bills.
Google news has a different free article confirming FBI with 14 bills here:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rtoMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TmYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6890,2755986&dq=ingram+cooper+money
That article also confirms that the lawyer for Royal Globe Insurance Co was Steve Rickles. I think he's still an attorney for insurance companies in WA. I posted a web page for him a while back.
I've been trying to figure out if the FBI got all the original 3 bundle tops and bottoms, or not.
For the best sampling of the 12 separate bundles they got from the Ingrams, it would have been nice to have 36. bottom and top of each of the 12, and a middle.
Would be nice if the FBI had recorded the exact bundle of 12, re the photo, and position within the bundle for each bill they retain.
But that would have been forensics. :) (Joke!)
If Tom is God, maybe he can reverse engineer that, or guess!
I just ran into a news article which says the court agreement in 1986 would have the FBI get $280 ...i.e. 14 bills.
Google news has a different free article confirming FBI with 14 bills here:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rtoMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TmYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6890,2755986&dq=ingram+cooper+money
That article also confirms that the lawyer for Royal Globe Insurance Co was Steve Rickles. I think he's still an attorney for insurance companies in WA. I posted a web page for him a while back.
I've been trying to figure out if the FBI got all the original 3 bundle tops and bottoms, or not.
For the best sampling of the 12 separate bundles they got from the Ingrams, it would have been nice to have 36. bottom and top of each of the 12, and a middle.
Would be nice if the FBI had recorded the exact bundle of 12, re the photo, and position within the bundle for each bill they retain.
But that would have been forensics. :) (Joke!)
If Tom is God, maybe he can reverse engineer that, or guess!
georger 256
We've gone back and forth on who got what bills back in 1986 after the court decision. Actually it was me wondering about the count, based on video snaps.
I just ran into a news article which says the court agreement in 1986 would have the FBI get $280 ...i.e. 14 bills.
Google news has a different free article confirming FBI with 14 bills here:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rtoMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TmYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6890,2755986&dq=ingram+cooper+money
That article also confirms that the lawyer for Royal Globe Insurance Co was Steve Rickles. I think he's still an attorney for insurance companies in WA. I posted a web page for him a while back.
I've been trying to figure out if the FBI got all the original 3 bundle tops and bottoms, or not.
For the best sampling of the 12 separate bundles they got from the Ingrams, it would have been nice to have 36. bottom and top of each of the 12, and a middle.
Would be nice if the FBI had recorded the exact bundle of 12, re the photo, and position within the bundle for each bill they retain.
But that would have been forensics. :) (Joke!)
If Tom is God, maybe he can reverse engineer that, or guess!
I think it was an unknown amount of US currency
in deteriorated condition. The exact number of
bills could not be determined due to the deterioration. After some time approximately
290 $20 bills were identified totaling $5800.
Its my understanding the FBI did not want to
turn anything back to the Ingrams, in particular.
The Ingrams filed suit. If the final disposition
gave the FBI only 14 bills of the original 290,
where went the rest of this "evidence"?
Some went to the Ingrams. I have heard some
went to the insurance company. Somebody got
270 $20 bills or fragments thereof.
Georger
georger 256
Let me see what I can work up -I can expand on this theme if anyone wants,
otherwise Im going to drop it.
Georger
Don't drop it Georger. Let's hear some more. Cooper did succeed in a BIG social engineering task. EVERYBODY did his bidding from pilots to rigger to bank officials etc. He needed a lot of compliance and cooperation and he got it. Asking for 4 chutes was pure genius if he did it to make them worry about one of the crew being forced to jump with him. It maximized the chances that all main chutes would be jumpable.
What does this tell us about Cooper? Was he a schmoozer or a boss type or ?? Saying he had a bomb and showing it was smarter than using a gun or the threat of a gun. With a gun the FBI would have figured if they shot him, game over. With a bomb you can't be so sure. Cooper kept everyone worried about the crew's safety and that worked really well for him.
377
377 22
Don't you think Cooper tossed the fake bomb? The fact that it wasn't found makes me think the search area was wrong. A bunch of flares impacting at terminal velocity would liklely leave a bright yellow sulphur powder marker assuming that the briefcase split on impact.
377
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Orange1 0
C'mon 377 - your excuse is the same reason you don't swoop. The risk outweighs what you are comfortable with. That's not being a wuss, that's being rational.
Me, I like things like altitude and reserves
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 22
I swoop, I just do it all above 1000 ft and alone in the sky. Being last out with a lightly loaded canopy is nice sometimes. I can do just about anything the young hotshot swoopers can do, just not anywhere near the ground.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
This is a interesting (to me) historical document where the US Comittee on Foreign Relations was reviewing the CORDS program in Vietnam (which also covered Phoenix) in 1970.
What's amazing is the cluelessness shown by the Chairman of the commitee, against the apparent sincere good effort being attempted by John Paul Vann. (in my quick scan). The dichotomy between the people actually "over there" and US congressmen is striking. There's an ridiculous exchange where the chairman asks about GIs building sunday schools in their off time.
But I include some snippets because some hard numbers are provided for non-military US in the area.
Very early on, Vietnam experience for Cooper was dismissed, because of a thinking that he would have been too old. I raised the issue of non-military US personnel in Vietnam.
I just started looking for some numbers. found some here. This doesn't include private contractors. Just the CORDS program, I suppose.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/phoenix-scfr-19700218.html
John Paul Vann heads the 3,400-man pacification advisory team in the Mekong delta, Ex-military.
Vann’s title is deputy director of the fourth corps Civil Operations and Revolutionary Development Support [C. O. R. D. S.] team, which is headed by an army major general.
BREAKDOWN OF ACTIVITIES OF U.S. PERSONNEL IN THE DELTA
The Chairman. I have one or two catch-up questions. It has been stated that there are 23,000 Americans in the Delta. There are no U.S. combat forces in the IV Corps and there are 2,357 people in the CORDS organization. What are the others doing in the Delta?
Mr. Vann. First of all, sir, there are approximately 6,000 who fly helicopters and maintain them. There are approximately 400 helicopters and, as you know, helicopters require an awful lot of maintenance, so the helicopter group there numbers 6,000 men.
We do provide about 90 percent of the helicopter support to the Government of Vietnam in the Delta.
The Chairman. That is 6,000 out of 20,000. What are the other 14,000?
Mr. Vann. We have 5,400 engineers there.
The Chairman. What are they doing?
Mr. Vann. They are building roads, sir. They are working on National Highway 4. They are doing it because all of the Vietnamese engineering and public works capacity is utilized as much as it can and still is not enough.
...
U.S. PERSONNEL IN THE DELTA
The Chairman. Didn’t you account for all those 23,000 people? I thought you did. The staff says you did not. Was there any other item?
Mr. Vann. Yes, there were, sir. The chairman changed the subject.
The Chairman. I didn’t particularly want to have you reveal how you changed the staff of each boat. All I wanted to know was the number of people.
Mr. Vann. Right, sir. I gave you 6,000 who were helicopters, the 5,400 engineers, and approximately 5,000 who are Navy. Now in addition to that we have a large number of support forces who provide signal communication, ordnance and transportation maintenance capability to back up some of the equipment that the Vietnamese have, and then the total advisory organization in the Delta, military and civilian, numbers approximately 3,800
Now in addition to these Americans, sir, there is also an Air Force Advisory organization that exists down in the Delta.
...
Mr. Vann. The 6,000 helicopter people are combat support. The engineers are support personnel. They are not combat personnel.
The Chairman. Do you know how many advisers then who are not running either a machine or firing a gun?
Mr. Vann. Sir, in all of Vietnam we have less than 10,000 advisers.
The Chairman. All of Vietnam?
...
Senator Cooper. Excuse me a minute. I don’t want to interrupt you, but I know at a later date this subject will be examined. The question I direct to you, because it is fair and should be answered, is the following: Is the United States involved in any way in carrying out what can be called a “terrorist” activity? Is this a normal intelligence operation of the kind which has been carried on in the past in wartime?
Mr. Vann. Well, the answer very shortly, sir, is no, we do not. We specifically prohibit it. Ever since I have been aware of it it has been prohibited. Ambassador Colby said so yesterday under oath and I say so today under oath.
What's amazing is the cluelessness shown by the Chairman of the commitee, against the apparent sincere good effort being attempted by John Paul Vann. (in my quick scan). The dichotomy between the people actually "over there" and US congressmen is striking. There's an ridiculous exchange where the chairman asks about GIs building sunday schools in their off time.
But I include some snippets because some hard numbers are provided for non-military US in the area.
Very early on, Vietnam experience for Cooper was dismissed, because of a thinking that he would have been too old. I raised the issue of non-military US personnel in Vietnam.
I just started looking for some numbers. found some here. This doesn't include private contractors. Just the CORDS program, I suppose.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/phoenix-scfr-19700218.html
John Paul Vann heads the 3,400-man pacification advisory team in the Mekong delta, Ex-military.
Vann’s title is deputy director of the fourth corps Civil Operations and Revolutionary Development Support [C. O. R. D. S.] team, which is headed by an army major general.
BREAKDOWN OF ACTIVITIES OF U.S. PERSONNEL IN THE DELTA
The Chairman. I have one or two catch-up questions. It has been stated that there are 23,000 Americans in the Delta. There are no U.S. combat forces in the IV Corps and there are 2,357 people in the CORDS organization. What are the others doing in the Delta?
Mr. Vann. First of all, sir, there are approximately 6,000 who fly helicopters and maintain them. There are approximately 400 helicopters and, as you know, helicopters require an awful lot of maintenance, so the helicopter group there numbers 6,000 men.
We do provide about 90 percent of the helicopter support to the Government of Vietnam in the Delta.
The Chairman. That is 6,000 out of 20,000. What are the other 14,000?
Mr. Vann. We have 5,400 engineers there.
The Chairman. What are they doing?
Mr. Vann. They are building roads, sir. They are working on National Highway 4. They are doing it because all of the Vietnamese engineering and public works capacity is utilized as much as it can and still is not enough.
...
U.S. PERSONNEL IN THE DELTA
The Chairman. Didn’t you account for all those 23,000 people? I thought you did. The staff says you did not. Was there any other item?
Mr. Vann. Yes, there were, sir. The chairman changed the subject.
The Chairman. I didn’t particularly want to have you reveal how you changed the staff of each boat. All I wanted to know was the number of people.
Mr. Vann. Right, sir. I gave you 6,000 who were helicopters, the 5,400 engineers, and approximately 5,000 who are Navy. Now in addition to that we have a large number of support forces who provide signal communication, ordnance and transportation maintenance capability to back up some of the equipment that the Vietnamese have, and then the total advisory organization in the Delta, military and civilian, numbers approximately 3,800
Now in addition to these Americans, sir, there is also an Air Force Advisory organization that exists down in the Delta.
...
Mr. Vann. The 6,000 helicopter people are combat support. The engineers are support personnel. They are not combat personnel.
The Chairman. Do you know how many advisers then who are not running either a machine or firing a gun?
Mr. Vann. Sir, in all of Vietnam we have less than 10,000 advisers.
The Chairman. All of Vietnam?
...
Senator Cooper. Excuse me a minute. I don’t want to interrupt you, but I know at a later date this subject will be examined. The question I direct to you, because it is fair and should be answered, is the following: Is the United States involved in any way in carrying out what can be called a “terrorist” activity? Is this a normal intelligence operation of the kind which has been carried on in the past in wartime?
Mr. Vann. Well, the answer very shortly, sir, is no, we do not. We specifically prohibit it. Ever since I have been aware of it it has been prohibited. Ambassador Colby said so yesterday under oath and I say so today under oath.
Orange1 0
Thanks Snow - that is interesting.
btw my reading of the smokejumper program is that they were classed as civilians as well.
I do think the Vietnam or at least SE Asia link has been made a lot stronger since we learnt about the 727 tests there. Not sure (roadbuilding) engineers would have been involved with that though, I would think our pool of suspects would be limited to people involved in some way with aviation.
btw my reading of the smokejumper program is that they were classed as civilians as well.
I do think the Vietnam or at least SE Asia link has been made a lot stronger since we learnt about the 727 tests there. Not sure (roadbuilding) engineers would have been involved with that though, I would think our pool of suspects would be limited to people involved in some way with aviation.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
snowmman 3
Thanks Snow - that is interesting.
btw my reading of the smokejumper program is that they were classed as civilians as well.
I do think the Vietnam or at least SE Asia link has been made a lot stronger since we learnt about the 727 tests there. Not sure (roadbuilding) engineers would have been involved with that though, I would think our pool of suspects would be limited to people involved in some way with aviation.
Possibly.
I look at vietnam initially as a possible grudge angle. So all sorts of people could have come back with a grudge of some kind. But yeah, an aviation link might be important, since Cooper seemed to display some aviation knowledge or jump knowledge.
(edit) Although I didn't emphasize it, the CORDS program was considered infilitrated with CIA in different areas, and was also responsible for financing the interrogation centers etc. So don't just think of CORDS as a wimpy engineering program.
Orange1 0
Possibly.
I look at vietnam initially as a possible grudge angle. So all sorts of people could have come back with a grudge of some kind. But yeah, an aviation link might be important, since Cooper seemed to display some aviation knowledge or jump knowledge.
Yeah, I was thinking more that someone in the aviation field would have been more likely to know about the 727 tests.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
snowmman 3
orange1:
just to show that you and I are really talking about the same stuff in Vietnam. (I may have already pointed this out). It's very difficult to understand how knowledge might have flowed thru people of the time and area.
from a CIA web page (like I've said, CIA has published a lot of historical stuff, slightly biased). The whole history is very convoluted and no matter how much has been written, it is still difficult to figure out.
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol51no2/a-retrospective-on-counterinsurgency-operations.html
By 1967, the US Military Assistance Command, Vietnam (MACV), had succeeded in consolidating all military and civilian pacification efforts into one entity, called Civil Operations and Revolutionary Development Support (CORDS).
CIA and MACV were intensely involved in CORDS, which was run in conjunction with the Saigon government. CIA-veteran Robert H. Komer initially headed CORDS, but it was most active and successful under William E. Colby, who replaced Komer in 1968.
Colby had served as chief of station in Saigon from 1959 to 1962 and as chief of the Far Eastern Division since then. Colby believed the United States must rid the south of the existing communist parallel government in the villages and eradicate the Viet Cong Infrastructure (VCI) in the countryside. Thus CORDS, while working on village defense and civic action programs--the latter included land reform, infrastructure building, and economic development--also devoted considerable resources to rooting out the VCI.
Another component of CORDS was the Phoenix Program. Although Phoenix was run and ostensibly controlled by the Saigon government, CIA funded and administered it. Phoenix built on the work of the CIA-created network of over 100 provincial and district intelligence operation committees in South Vietnam that collected and disseminated information on the VCI to field police and paramilitary units.
just to show that you and I are really talking about the same stuff in Vietnam. (I may have already pointed this out). It's very difficult to understand how knowledge might have flowed thru people of the time and area.
from a CIA web page (like I've said, CIA has published a lot of historical stuff, slightly biased). The whole history is very convoluted and no matter how much has been written, it is still difficult to figure out.
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol51no2/a-retrospective-on-counterinsurgency-operations.html
By 1967, the US Military Assistance Command, Vietnam (MACV), had succeeded in consolidating all military and civilian pacification efforts into one entity, called Civil Operations and Revolutionary Development Support (CORDS).
CIA and MACV were intensely involved in CORDS, which was run in conjunction with the Saigon government. CIA-veteran Robert H. Komer initially headed CORDS, but it was most active and successful under William E. Colby, who replaced Komer in 1968.
Colby had served as chief of station in Saigon from 1959 to 1962 and as chief of the Far Eastern Division since then. Colby believed the United States must rid the south of the existing communist parallel government in the villages and eradicate the Viet Cong Infrastructure (VCI) in the countryside. Thus CORDS, while working on village defense and civic action programs--the latter included land reform, infrastructure building, and economic development--also devoted considerable resources to rooting out the VCI.
Another component of CORDS was the Phoenix Program. Although Phoenix was run and ostensibly controlled by the Saigon government, CIA funded and administered it. Phoenix built on the work of the CIA-created network of over 100 provincial and district intelligence operation committees in South Vietnam that collected and disseminated information on the VCI to field police and paramilitary units.
snowmman 3
Just noted that under "New Accessions and Openings for the 1st Quarter FY 2007", the National Archives (run by U.S. federal gov), apparently acquired a Cooper case file from Washington?
Not all of their stuff is online. Interestingly this case file is from 1972. I cubic foot. They have regional archives. Not sure exactly where this archive is, physically.
from:
http://www.archives.gov/research/accessions/2007-quarter-1.html
Records of United States Attorneys (Record Group 118)
1 cubic foot
Western Judicial District of Washington: Significant Case Files – D. B. Cooper, Case #72-0451, 1972.
Not all of their stuff is online. Interestingly this case file is from 1972. I cubic foot. They have regional archives. Not sure exactly where this archive is, physically.
from:
http://www.archives.gov/research/accessions/2007-quarter-1.html
Records of United States Attorneys (Record Group 118)
1 cubic foot
Western Judicial District of Washington: Significant Case Files – D. B. Cooper, Case #72-0451, 1972.
snowmman 3
This one is interesting for a couple of reasons.
July, 1972
1) Vietnamese student.
2) 747 was flying from WA to South Vietnam?
3) grudge, although kind of unique one (shows how hard it is to predict grudges). Interesting: one of the notes was written in blood?
4) What the pilot Vaughn, 53, did was pretty extreme. Read the article, around where they quote "Kill the son of a bitch". Passenger shot him while Vaughn was holding him.
5) The shooter (5 shots) was a former policeman, going to Saigon to work for an American firm.
I've attached a news article with a lot of detail and photo.
quick synopsis from here: ("vacationing cop" seems inaccurate)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,877868,00.html
"One hour out of Saigon, Nguyen Thai-Binh, 24, a South Vietnamese returning home from studies at the University of Washington, took command of a Pan American 747 jumbojet and ordered the pilot to fly him to Hanoi. Thai-Binh's U.S. Government scholarship had been canceled at the Thieu regime's request, possibly because of Thai-Binh's antiwar activities. The pilot, Gene Vaughn, 53, flew into Saigon anyway, and Thai-Binh sent him a second order written in blood—apparently his own. It got him nowhere; he was shot dead by a vacationing American cop."
July, 1972
1) Vietnamese student.
2) 747 was flying from WA to South Vietnam?
3) grudge, although kind of unique one (shows how hard it is to predict grudges). Interesting: one of the notes was written in blood?
4) What the pilot Vaughn, 53, did was pretty extreme. Read the article, around where they quote "Kill the son of a bitch". Passenger shot him while Vaughn was holding him.
5) The shooter (5 shots) was a former policeman, going to Saigon to work for an American firm.
I've attached a news article with a lot of detail and photo.
quick synopsis from here: ("vacationing cop" seems inaccurate)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,877868,00.html
"One hour out of Saigon, Nguyen Thai-Binh, 24, a South Vietnamese returning home from studies at the University of Washington, took command of a Pan American 747 jumbojet and ordered the pilot to fly him to Hanoi. Thai-Binh's U.S. Government scholarship had been canceled at the Thieu regime's request, possibly because of Thai-Binh's antiwar activities. The pilot, Gene Vaughn, 53, flew into Saigon anyway, and Thai-Binh sent him a second order written in blood—apparently his own. It got him nowhere; he was shot dead by a vacationing American cop."
I found this on the web it's from an article I ran across.
"The task at first seemed simple. Authorities at Tacoma's McChord Air Force Base agreed to provide military-issue chutes. But Cooper—through a flight attendant messenger—rejected the military chutes, which have automatic opening mechanisms. Cooper insisted on civilian chutes, with user-operated ripcords. After a series of urgent phone calls, Seattle cops managed to make contact with the owner of a skydiving school. The business was closed, but the owner was pressed into service. He met officers at the school, and soon a police car with lights flashing and siren screaming raced to Sea-Tac Airport with a precious cargo of four parachutes"
I thought there was no discussion from Cooper about military vs sport equipment??????? can sombody verify this or refute it.
The other question I can't find the answer too is, he boarded the plan without sunglasses then spoke to Tina without sunglasses cause she remarked on his eyes, Where did the composite with the sunglasses come into play of the timeline???????
And the last question. We have not discussed the hat at all. Why leave a Tie but take or chuck the hat? This confuses me.
"The task at first seemed simple. Authorities at Tacoma's McChord Air Force Base agreed to provide military-issue chutes. But Cooper—through a flight attendant messenger—rejected the military chutes, which have automatic opening mechanisms. Cooper insisted on civilian chutes, with user-operated ripcords. After a series of urgent phone calls, Seattle cops managed to make contact with the owner of a skydiving school. The business was closed, but the owner was pressed into service. He met officers at the school, and soon a police car with lights flashing and siren screaming raced to Sea-Tac Airport with a precious cargo of four parachutes"
I thought there was no discussion from Cooper about military vs sport equipment??????? can sombody verify this or refute it.
The other question I can't find the answer too is, he boarded the plan without sunglasses then spoke to Tina without sunglasses cause she remarked on his eyes, Where did the composite with the sunglasses come into play of the timeline???????
And the last question. We have not discussed the hat at all. Why leave a Tie but take or chuck the hat? This confuses me.
snowmman 3
I found this on the web it's from an article I ran across.
"The task at first seemed simple. Authorities at Tacoma's McChord Air Force Base agreed to provide military-issue chutes. But Cooper—through a flight attendant messenger—rejected the military chutes, which have automatic opening mechanisms. Cooper insisted on civilian chutes, with user-operated ripcords. After a series of urgent phone calls, Seattle cops managed to make contact with the owner of a skydiving school. The business was closed, but the owner was pressed into service. He met officers at the school, and soon a police car with lights flashing and siren screaming raced to Sea-Tac Airport with a precious cargo of four parachutes"
I thought there was no discussion from Cooper about military vs sport equipment??????? can sombody verify this or refute it.
The other question I can't find the answer too is, he boarded the plan without sunglasses then spoke to Tina without sunglasses cause she remarked on his eyes, Where did the composite with the sunglasses come into play of the timeline???????
And the last question. We have not discussed the hat at all. Why leave a Tie but take or chuck the hat? This confuses me.
I thought we confirmed that there was no exchange about military vs sport chutes. that was myth. The exchange involving "McChord" is documented on Sluggo's site. (Cooper didn't say it first)
And there was no hat.
I don't think we have a perfect timeline on when the glasses were on vs off.
Here is the article that referenced the hat and where the quote came from.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/DB_Cooper/index.html
I agree with your comments snow that is why i asked the three questions which threw me and I wanted to ask the peanut gallery. If anyone has anything on the three questions post and let's discuss. Just trying to provoke thoughts that is how info is found.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/DB_Cooper/index.html
I agree with your comments snow that is why i asked the three questions which threw me and I wanted to ask the peanut gallery. If anyone has anything on the three questions post and let's discuss. Just trying to provoke thoughts that is how info is found.
377 22
"Cooper—through a flight attendant messenger—rejected the military chutes, which have automatic opening mechanisms."
The ejection seat chutes of that era have timer/aneroid auto openers triggered by election but they also have manual ripcords.
The type worn by aircrew in non ejection planes like C 130s just had ripcords. I guess if this military vs civil chute dialogue didn't happen it is a moot point.
For F 106s (at McChord in 71) this was the gear:
http://www.ejectionsite.com/f106seats.htm
377
The ejection seat chutes of that era have timer/aneroid auto openers triggered by election but they also have manual ripcords.
The type worn by aircrew in non ejection planes like C 130s just had ripcords. I guess if this military vs civil chute dialogue didn't happen it is a moot point.
For F 106s (at McChord in 71) this was the gear:
http://www.ejectionsite.com/f106seats.htm
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
Here is the article that referenced the hat and where the quote came from.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/DB_Cooper/index.html
I agree with your comments snow that is why i asked the three questions which threw me and I wanted to ask the peanut gallery. If anyone has anything on the three questions post and let's discuss. Just trying to provoke thoughts that is how info is found.
that trutv article is bad. I believe it started the myth of the flight path being shifted, due to incorrect reading of the Norjack book. oh btw: If anyone finds earlier references to theorized (mythologized?) flight path shifts, post a link.
(edit) no my memory was good.
the supposed H./Scott meeting is described here:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/DB_Cooper/7.html
But there is no such meeting in the Norjack book.
The trutv article is from 2003? or 2004?
If there are earlier references to a Scott/H./retirement meeting, please post.
georger 256
Here is the article that referenced the hat and where the quote came from.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/DB_Cooper/index.html
I agree with your comments snow that is why i asked the three questions which threw me and I wanted to ask the peanut gallery. If anyone has anything on the three questions post and let's discuss. Just trying to provoke thoughts that is how info is found.
This is the kind of article which if true would make
significant changes/additions to the information
Ckret provided here, in my opinion.
There was no felt hat. There were more than 2 red
sticks of dynamite in the bomb. There were 2 bundles
of 4 sticks each, as described by Tina. Hancock is
not even mentioned as a crew member. The trip from
PDX to SEA took longer (circling) than the article says.
The refueling took longer than stated. The whole timeline in the article appears to be off. The rear stair
light did not go on at 8:24 but much earlier according
to the PI Transcript. At 8:24 the plane was not over Merwin Lake but would have been miles south of Portland. Cooper specifically did not specify denomination of bills - he had no idea what denominations he was getting.
... this is not an accurate historical account.
This article like so any media offerings was not
fact-checked. .... and I doubt they care. This article
has been generated and regenerated several times
over the years. What the article does correctly portray
is 'there were facts in the Cooper case', just not these
facts.
And the article does not mention transvestites or
Jo Weber once, which is refreshing!
Georger
(edit) I havent addressed the chute issue. Its not
that we dont have a pretty good idea of what
happened ... it is that several people critical to this story have never issued concise factual accounts especially Cossey who packed and gave the chutes.
A historically accurate account of the DB Cooper
case has yet to be written, if there ever will be one.
Georger
wolfriverjoe 1,523
Here is the article that referenced the hat and where the quote came from.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/DB_Cooper/index.html
I agree with your comments snow that is why i asked the three questions which threw me and I wanted to ask the peanut gallery. If anyone has anything on the three questions post and let's discuss. Just trying to provoke thoughts that is how info is found.
that trutv article is bad. I believe it started the myth of the flight path being shifted, due to incorrect reading of the Norjack book. oh btw: If anyone finds earlier references to theorized (mythologized?) flight path shifts, post a link.
(edit) no my memory was good.
the supposed H./Scott meeting is described here:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/DB_Cooper/7.html
But there is no such meeting in the Norjack book.
The trutv article is from 2003? or 2004?
If there are earlier references to a Scott/H./retirement meeting, please post.
Yeah, the TruTV article is full of holes.
It was a Huey chopper, not a T-33 that was the slow chase "plane".
Ckret said "No hat".
The description of the plane's behavior when Cooper jumped was way off.
There's more, but those jumped out at me.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
snowmman 3
I had posted details of '75 insurance court case before, detailing who transported the money.
I just noticed that the insurance coverage was for $250k, not $200k which I think some mythology had created. $20k deductible.
The policy was written on 9/29/65
from
https://www.fastcase.com/Google/Start.aspx?C=a6f6e841929ba0e63b670d1c13b96ccfb97401dad2c83d47&D=18946b2467c59bc7ca946f4642c1ae0e7e5beba847e0ef74
Page 831
225 N.W.2d 831
303 Minn. 16
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC., Respondent,
v.
GLOBE INDEMNITY COMPANY, Appellant.
No. 44904.
Supreme Court of Minnesota.
Jan. 24, 1975.
Page 832
Syllabus by the Court
1. An insurer must indemnify the insured for payment made [303 Minn. 17] by the insured to a hijacker where the policy was a blanket crime policy, as opposed to one insuring for specific risks only.
2. In the event of ambiguity in a policy, the policy language will be strictly construed against the insurer.
Robins, Davis & Lyons, Harding A. Orren, John C. Hart, and M. Arnold Lyons, Minneapolis, for appellant.
Dorsey, Marquart, Windhorst, West & Halladay, William J. Hempel, and Lane Ayres, Minneapolis, for respondent.
Considered and decided by the court en banc.
YETKA, Justice.
Plaintiff brought an action in the District Court of Hennepin County, seeking recovery under an insurance policy issued it by defendant for losses sustained as the result of criminal acts of an unknown person perpetrated in the states of Washington and Oregon during an airline flight. From the judgment of the district court determining that plaintiff was entitled to recovery, defendant appeals. We affirm.
On September 29, 1965, defendant (insurer) and plaintiff (insured) executed an insurance agreement entitled 'blanket Crime Policy' and providing indemnity for covered losses not to exceed $250,000, with a $20,000 deductible clause. This policy was in effect at the time of the alleged loss.
I just noticed that the insurance coverage was for $250k, not $200k which I think some mythology had created. $20k deductible.
The policy was written on 9/29/65
from
https://www.fastcase.com/Google/Start.aspx?C=a6f6e841929ba0e63b670d1c13b96ccfb97401dad2c83d47&D=18946b2467c59bc7ca946f4642c1ae0e7e5beba847e0ef74
Page 831
225 N.W.2d 831
303 Minn. 16
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC., Respondent,
v.
GLOBE INDEMNITY COMPANY, Appellant.
No. 44904.
Supreme Court of Minnesota.
Jan. 24, 1975.
Page 832
Syllabus by the Court
1. An insurer must indemnify the insured for payment made [303 Minn. 17] by the insured to a hijacker where the policy was a blanket crime policy, as opposed to one insuring for specific risks only.
2. In the event of ambiguity in a policy, the policy language will be strictly construed against the insurer.
Robins, Davis & Lyons, Harding A. Orren, John C. Hart, and M. Arnold Lyons, Minneapolis, for appellant.
Dorsey, Marquart, Windhorst, West & Halladay, William J. Hempel, and Lane Ayres, Minneapolis, for respondent.
Considered and decided by the court en banc.
YETKA, Justice.
Plaintiff brought an action in the District Court of Hennepin County, seeking recovery under an insurance policy issued it by defendant for losses sustained as the result of criminal acts of an unknown person perpetrated in the states of Washington and Oregon during an airline flight. From the judgment of the district court determining that plaintiff was entitled to recovery, defendant appeals. We affirm.
On September 29, 1965, defendant (insurer) and plaintiff (insured) executed an insurance agreement entitled 'blanket Crime Policy' and providing indemnity for covered losses not to exceed $250,000, with a $20,000 deductible clause. This policy was in effect at the time of the alleged loss.
like everything else there is a place (and time) for it.
Had the airplane never been invented, I doubt we would be discussing it. Instead it would be "nude
grizzly bear fighting" or some other "sport", or
cliff jumping.
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