snowmman 3 #7001 January 7, 2009 I just read a small blip in a news article that said Tosaw was involved in helping get the money released (thru the courts) in 1986. supposedly there was a family lawyer? and the lawyer on the insurance side, too? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #7002 January 7, 2009 Quote Patricia Ingram rebutted saying Crystal's account was false, even as Crystal Ingram had already turned in more of the Cooper money to the FBI, in behalf everyone involved! This is startling. Don't know what to make of it. The 12 bundles we have a photo of, on the green table, were taken after the initial report to the FBI by Harold and Patricia..like that day I believe. So any money turned in later, we don't have photos of? This is all confusing. (edit) OR: did Crystal turn in her money before the green table photos were taken? was it that day, or the next day or ??? Were the black bills turned in later? Is that why it's hard to understand where all the brown/black bills came from, based on the 12 bundle photo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #7003 January 7, 2009 Where the F*** did Crystal Ingram get the money that she turned in later? If she found it at Tena Bar, how come Brian only talks about 3 bundles? And if Found at Tena Bar, why split out some? Why turn in 3 bundles? Why not just one? Could David R. Ingram have been the original real finder of all the money? He's the one who's most silent in the whole affair? Did it fall out of the sky into his backyard? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #7004 January 7, 2009 Quote I just read a small blip in a news article that said Tosaw was involved in helping get the money released (thru the courts) in 1986. supposedly there was a family lawyer? and the lawyer on the insurance side, too? amazing, Tosaw's involvement. Did he get some bills? and whose account of the location of the find was taken as the best or most truthful account, Harold's or Crystals? Crystal said "next to the river" ... and Tosaw is out immediately dragging the river right off Tina Bar, while also helping Brian get the money! I guess you work both sides of the river at once? G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #7005 January 7, 2009 Quote Where the F*** did Crystal Ingram get the money that she turned in later? REPLY> Crystal and Denise were there! Crystal says it was Denise dug up the money partially then Brian started helping and finished it, while calling to his dad ... Crystal's account is very clear. The chronology of the events after the find; who said and did what, and when, is very clear. If she found it at Tena Bar, how come Brian only talks about 3 bundles? And if Found at Tena Bar, why split out some? Why turn in 3 bundles? Why not just one? Reply> They took the money back to where Harold and Pat were living and separated the bundles on the kitchen table, to dry and separate the bundles. It was then or later than each took some before any money was turned over to the FBI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #7006 January 7, 2009 Quote Where the F*** did Crystal Ingram get the money that she turned in later? If she found it at Tena Bar, how come Brian only talks about 3 bundles? And if Found at Tena Bar, why split out some? Why turn in 3 bundles? Why not just one? Could David R. Ingram have been the original real finder of all the money? He's the one who's most silent in the whole affair? Did it fall out of the sky into his backyard? Sorry.Now you have me confused. What does DAVID Ingram have to do with this? David has never made any claim on this money nor said he was even there. G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #7007 January 7, 2009 This is from the Dallas Morning News, Nov. 20, 1986 What I don't understand, is how Tosaw reconciles the flight path, which doesn't seem to coincide with his theory. Interesting what he says about his conversation with the mother, and with Tina about Cooper putting the rig on. Note this article was after he had published his book. "As Tosaw explains it, when Cooper released two of the three flight attendants in Seattle before the final take-off, he pulled some bills from the bag and offered them a "tip.' They refused. "I believe he stuffed those bills inside his coat or clothing, maybe under his belt. That's the $6,000 that came up (actually $5,800; 10 bills were missing from one packet). The rest is in the bag. If the bag had opened, a lot more would have been found. That beach is a popular place, with people on it every day of the year. Besides, the FBI dug up the whole beach area after the discovery.' Tosaw obtained the key to his theory long after the bills were found. "The money was still in packets, with rubber bands around them, though the bands broke as soon as they were touched,' he said. "That showed it couldn't have come far. It couldn't have been there long.' Early reports said the packets were scattered near each other and covered with sand. But while talking with the mother of Brian Ingram, the 8-year-old boy who found the money, Tosaw said he made a further discovery. "The packets were still in a clump, pressed together, not scattered, not really covered. They hadn't come far enough even to separate,' he said. "That makes the eddy just above the beach the prime search area.' ... "Tina was the only one to really see Cooper,' Tosaw said. "I was able to talk with her by telephone with permission of her mother superior.' Ms. Mucklow is a nun now, a member of a cloistered order in Oregon. "She's very happy in her life,' a friend said. "He knew that plane intimately,' Tosaw said. "Tina said he put the chute on as if he'd done it every day. He just had a little trouble getting the stairs down. He went farther than he planned. He had no idea where he was when he jumped.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #7008 January 7, 2009 Quote Quote Where the F*** did Crystal Ingram get the money that she turned in later? If she found it at Tena Bar, how come Brian only talks about 3 bundles? And if Found at Tena Bar, why split out some? Why turn in 3 bundles? Why not just one? Could David R. Ingram have been the original real finder of all the money? He's the one who's most silent in the whole affair? Did it fall out of the sky into his backyard? Sorry.Now you have me confused. What does DAVID Ingram have to do with this? David has never made any claim on this money nor said he was even there. G. :) Exactly. That's why we would suspect him. I'm using Jo logic. Until you can prove someone's not guilty, you assume they are. Actually just throwing out the David thing because it was something I was musing about back in May, and the recent conversation just stirred it up again. I had been trying to work out a list of who was at Tina Bar. You're saying David wasn't? Just the people you mentioned? or are you not sure of the complete list either? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #7009 January 7, 2009 Quote "Tina said he put the chute on as if he'd done it every day." I remember my first jump class in 68. We used surplus gear quite similar to what Cooper jumped with. We all had to be shown how to put the gear on. To someone who had never worn a harness of any kind it wasn't immediately apparent what strap went where. Sure sounds to me that this was not the first time Cooper had donned a rig. Any other jumpers care to comment? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #7010 January 7, 2009 From that same Dallas Morning News article: "Sid Tipper comes to the party once in a while. Tipper, 87, born in England, came to Vancouver in 1923. He was fishing on the beach the day the boy found part of Cooper's loot. He was fishing the day the FBI moved in to search. Unless it's Christmas and he is playing Santa at a local store, he'll be fishing there when Tosaw puts his divers in. "I think Cooper's caught up in one of those creeks (along the Columbia),' Tipper said. "High water lifted that money out. It was one of the highest stages in years.'" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #7011 January 7, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Where the F*** did Crystal Ingram get the money that she turned in later? If she found it at Tena Bar, how come Brian only talks about 3 bundles? And if Found at Tena Bar, why split out some? Why turn in 3 bundles? Why not just one? Could David R. Ingram have been the original real finder of all the money? He's the one who's most silent in the whole affair? Did it fall out of the sky into his backyard? Sorry.Now you have me confused. What does DAVID Ingram have to do with this? David has never made any claim on this money nor said he was even there. G. :) Exactly. That's why we would suspect him. I'm using Jo logic. Until you can prove someone's not guilty, you assume they are. Actually just throwing out the David thing because it was something I was musing about back in May, and the recent conversation just stirred it up again. I had been trying to work out a list of who was at Tina Bar. You're saying David wasn't? Just the people you mentioned? or are you not sure of the complete list either? whatever - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #7012 January 8, 2009 Quote This is from the Dallas Morning News, Nov. 20, 1986 What I don't understand, is how Tosaw reconciles the flight path, which doesn't seem to coincide with his theory. Interesting what he says about his conversation with the mother, and with Tina about Cooper putting the rig on. Note this article was after he had published his book. "As Tosaw explains it, when Cooper released two of the three flight attendants in Seattle before the final take-off, he pulled some bills from the bag and offered them a "tip.' They refused. "I believe he stuffed those bills inside his coat or clothing, maybe under his belt. That's the $6,000 that came up (actually $5,800; 10 bills were missing from one packet). The rest is in the bag. If the bag had opened, a lot more would have been found. That beach is a popular place, with people on it every day of the year. Besides, the FBI dug up the whole beach area after the discovery.' REPLY> More than $5800 was found. Poof goes Tosaw's theory! Tosaw obtained the key to his theory long after the bills were found. "The money was still in packets, with rubber bands around them, though the bands broke as soon as they were touched,' he said. "That showed it couldn't have come far. It couldn't have been there long.' Reply> Or that it had been there a very long time unmoved. Poof, another Tosaw theory gone. Early reports said the packets were scattered near each other and covered with sand. But while talking with the mother of Brian Ingram, the 8-year-old boy who found the money, Tosaw said he made a further discovery. "The packets were still in a clump, pressed together, not scattered, not really covered. They hadn't come far enough even to separate,' he said. "That makes the eddy just above the beach the prime search area.' Reply> and Tosaw found nothing in this eddy - why should he? Or, that the bills had been cemented into a clump and move little or moved slowly in gentle flow recently .......... Poof, another Tosaw theory gone. "Tina was the only one to really see Cooper,' Tosaw said. "I was able to talk with her by telephone with permission of her mother superior.' Ms. Mucklow is a nun now, a member of a cloistered order in Oregon. "She's very happy in her life,' a friend said. "He knew that plane intimately,' Tosaw said. "Tina said he put the chute on as if he'd done it every day. He just had a little trouble getting the stairs down. He went farther than he planned. He had no idea where he was when he jumped.' Reply> This might have merit. But how do you get the money to Tina Bar in the "not moved very far" condition Tosaw cites? There is a flight path to consider. Why should Tosaw know more than the FBI does? Tosaw hasnt found squat! G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #7013 January 8, 2009 Quote From that same Dallas Morning News article: "Sid Tipper comes to the party once in a while. Tipper, 87, born in England, came to Vancouver in 1923. He was fishing on the beach the day the boy found part of Cooper's loot. He was fishing the day the FBI moved in to search. Unless it's Christmas and he is playing Santa at a local store, he'll be fishing there when Tosaw puts his divers in. "I think Cooper's caught up in one of those creeks (along the Columbia),' Tipper said. "High water lifted that money out. It was one of the highest stages in years.'" What year is he talking about? 1980? 1971? Or 104BC? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #7014 January 8, 2009 I'm not disagreeing with anything you say georger. I always fall back on my "there are no facts" claim :) that pretty much covers me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #7015 January 8, 2009 Quote I'm not disagreeing with anything you say georger. I always fall back on my "there are no facts" claim :) that pretty much covers me. There are no facts in your world - only searches. G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #7016 January 8, 2009 Quote Quote I'm not disagreeing with anything you say georger. I always fall back on my "there are no facts" claim :) that pretty much covers me. There are no facts in your world - only searches. G. look at your post on your screen. Whose world are you in? If my world has no facts, then you don't exist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #7017 January 8, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote but i do know that head down openings can (don't always) result in canopies losing lines or tearing fabric. So this means it happens but do people get hurt doing it? Is jumping out of a plane at 200 and deploying head down at 200 similar? TK You need to compare "apples to apples". DBC was using a round canopy. Opening characteristics are different. You can't compare the openings of a modern square to his round. Also, you can't make the assumption that DBC deployed going 200mph. First, I have jumped out of 727 at 150mph. I waited until the air friction slowed me down to 115 before dumping. My guess is that he would have been quite unstable immediately after his exit (and lost both shoes). Then, he would have done a quick freefall to slow down and regain his stability. Most video of 727 jumps are comparatively recent (mid 90's), using modern gear and square canopies. This is a question that must be answered by a jumper with experience in rounds. These issues were thoroughly discussed by the old timers here early last year - around March 08? G. Yes they were. I was trying to bring the new guy up to speed. After 10,000 posts (literally), every topic has certainly been re-hashed 10 or 12 times. I didn't want to try to dig up the link. I was hoping for a quicky 5-line explanation instead. I just wanted to highlight that the 727 exit video, that he mentioned, was probably from WFFC. That is recent video with square sport mains, so the comparison was not valid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #7018 January 8, 2009 Years ago there was a very high speed video on the Internet showing the results of govt funded research on C9 canopy dynamics. I can't find it now. It showed an overspeed overweight deployment and disintegration of a C9 in incredible detail, very high frame rate. Other videos in the series showed inversions and other C9 malfunctions. Maybe Snow can find it. Given what we know about the exit speed and the canopy Cooper used, I think if he pulled the ripcord at any point from exit to about 800 ft AGL he got an intact canopy. No detached or dissected aortas, no debilitating opening shock, perhaps some aches and pains but alive and under a functional canopy. The Air America 727 static line video was an eye opener for me. I did a DC 9 jet jump, but it was a long delay and a square canopy. I had no idea you could deploy a round right out the door of a 727 and have such a decent opening. The "squiding" of the canopies apparently slowed down the deployment. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #7019 January 8, 2009 Quote The Air America 727 static line video was an eye opener for me. I did a DC 9 jet jump, but it was a long delay and a square canopy. I had no idea you could deploy a round right out the door of a 727 and have such a decent opening. The "squiding" of the canopies apparently slowed down the deployment. 377 What does "squiding" mean? I wish there was a way of knowing the names of all of the individuals in that clip. The man who was lying on his back with his chin up - not really very clear. Wish it was possible to put it on a DVD so I could play it and freeze certain frames and then have them enhanced. Just curious as to if we could get more details on the individuals. Would be great if someone who was actually in that clip was still alive - and able to talk about it. You know they had MORE film as they only used a small portion in the finished product.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #7020 January 8, 2009 Quote Wish it was possible to put it on a DVD so I could play it and freeze certain frames and then have them enhanced. Just curious as to if we could get more details on the individuals. the right path to do that would be to download a higher resolution version from the site I provided before, and then just load it into a video edit and grab whatever frame you like. There's no reason to do that, so I won't. I'm scratching my head at what process you might dream up to find the guys, assuming you had a good picture but nothing else? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #7021 January 8, 2009 Quote To the skydivers out there, From Snows video we now know that a hop and pop out of a 727 is possible. I am assuming that the 727 in the video was likely flying just above stall speed and Coopers jet was going somewhat faster. So the question remains, if this faster speed would put you into the speed threshold were your much more likely to get hurt. To that end I have a question. When you guys go head down, it is my understanding that you can reach almost 200 mph. What happens if you pop the chute in that situation?? I am thinking it must have happened more than once. Thanks Tk Tom, as someone said, at this point, all of this has been discussed previously. No, I don't expect you to look through all the fluff and chaff to find it. That's what we idiots are for: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3318916#3318916 As you can read, the old rounds are a lot different from the ram-air squares we jump today. 377 had the right idea. If Cooper pulled high enough, he was ok under canopy. What happened after landing is a whole different issue."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #7022 January 8, 2009 I guess we're rehashing stuff..for me of limited knowledge, I thought Butler's paper here was informative: http://www.butlerparachutes.com/PDF/PIApresen.pdf on page 7, he highlights his qualitive perception that it's a question of deployment reliability decreasing for increased speed, for all canopies, just with different curves and knees. He does mention that he thinks military parachutes have benefit because of their high cloth permeability..perhaps not until 180-200 knots before you see a spike in malfunctions. His opinions were based on a lot of testing he did. this was his thinking in '98? I don't know how it applies to C-9's used in '71. (edit) but notice all of butler's stuff is talking about rounds so it should apply? He does caveat it with "deployment diapers" and I guess everything says there was no such thing on Cooper's rig. I think this all is another case of not enough data to make any rational estimate of deployment reliability. At the very least though, it seems reasonable to say that the fail rate wouldn't have been 100%.. Which is kind of where we left it before. We just couldnt' say for sure? Butler has some nice sequence photos of failures in that doc. Like on page 17. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 567 #7023 January 8, 2009 What does "squiding" mean? When a round parachute opens it inflates in a way that you wouldn't expect and that is it starts to inflate from the top so that initially during parts of the opening sequence it would look like a "squid" or hot air balloon.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #7024 January 8, 2009 Quote Tom, as someone said, at this point, all of this has been discussed previously. No, I don't expect you to look through all the fluff and chaff to find it. That's what we idiots are for: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3318916#3318916 As you can read, the old rounds are a lot different from the ram-air squares we jump today. Gotta love NickDG. Has everyone run off to their kitchen to suck on plastic bags yet? Wolfriverjoe, thanks for finding that post. I must admit 7000-odd posts later in this thread alone I have kind of lost track of where to find stuff, and sometimes of how much detail we have actually had...Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 256 #7025 January 8, 2009 Quote Where the F*** did Crystal Ingram get the money that she turned in later? Reply> Let me answer this directly. She turned in one bill each from Harold, Pat, herself, and a fourth adult unamed, each bill kept as a souvenier. She turned in these bills on Feb 14th, 1980 after calling the media and the FBI on Feb 13th with her version of the discovery at T_Bar. This followed the FBI- Ingram surprise Press Conference televised on Feb 12th which evidently caught Crystal Ingram by surprise. Crystal was of course omitted from this surprise Press Conference the afternoon of the 12th. Harold and Patricia had just turned in their money to the FBI that morning. Himmelsbach moved too quickly, as usual. He didnt even have the full story. He hadnt interviewed Crystal, or checked out Harold and Patricia, but just took everything Harold and Patricia said as true. It blind-sided Crystal who is suddenly standing watching Harold and Patricia giving a press conference, when she knows not all of the money has been turned in and she has a different account of how and where the money was found!. Crystal called the FBI the very next day, the 13th, to try and straightened matters out. Then she had to explain to Harold and Patricia: "The FBI wants ALL the money!" because I called them and told them the truth! Harold and Patrica were extremely angry but gave their remaining bills to Crystal who took them to the FBI. Then Harold and Patricia stayed silent until the 20th. Crystal contacted the press again on Feb 19th after the FBI interviewed her a second time earlier in the day. Immediately, on the 20th, Patricia called the FBI to inquire if Crystal was talking to the FBI, and if Crystal had in fact returned four extra bills, and if Brian was going to get a reward! Patricia then turned around and called a radio station complaining the FBI was not going to give Brian (or Harold and Pat) a reward which they were due. Those are the facts as I think they are - G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
