Orange1 0
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wolfriverjoe 1,523
Orange1- Maybe PAUL is the company HQ in St Paul MN?? Just a guess.
Snowmman-Also a guess- stairs have hydraulics to lift them, but do the lift cylinders act as dampers and extension limiters for lowering?? Kind of like how a forklift can lower slowly, even with the engine off. The lever isn't using any power, just releasing the pressure and fluid at a controlled rate.
It seems pretty clear from the transcripts that no one at NWA ops had any knowledge of operating the plane with the stairs down.
I wonder if the crew at Danang in '75 knew they could do what they did, or were just saying "screw it, we gotta get outa here"?
Snowmman-Also a guess- stairs have hydraulics to lift them, but do the lift cylinders act as dampers and extension limiters for lowering?? Kind of like how a forklift can lower slowly, even with the engine off. The lever isn't using any power, just releasing the pressure and fluid at a controlled rate.
It seems pretty clear from the transcripts that no one at NWA ops had any knowledge of operating the plane with the stairs down.
I wonder if the crew at Danang in '75 knew they could do what they did, or were just saying "screw it, we gotta get outa here"?
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
QuoteQuoteTina gave a very good description of the bomb, over the radio to ground control.
And yet everyone still firmly believed it really was a bomb, despite your points above?
Belief is probably unrelated to the decision process.
The SOP was probably to just do whatever and get
them off the plane.
Currently, people walk into banks and say they have
a gun/bomb and the tellers just give them the
money without seeing the weapon.
Personally, I don't want to be in the bank with an
irate gunman on the day that the teller decides to
make it an issue. Getting accidentally shot is just
as painful.
377 22
Even though 99% of so called "bombs" used by robbers/hijackers are non existent or fake, better to err on the side of caution. Many years ago a disgrunteld gambler called Harrahs Club Casino in Reno NV (as I recall) trying to extort money with a bomb threat. The building was evacuated but everyone thought it was just another fake. He didn't get the money and KABOOM!!! A HUGE bomb was detonated. The culprit, a former WW2 Luftwaffe pilot, had disguised the bomb as an IBM mainfame unit and had it delivered and positioned for installation in the Casino's IT center.
377
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
"he wants the flaps down to 15, I think."
Good highlight, Orange1.
Maybe this was when 15 got introduced into the conversation. It got said (it was a reasonable technical opinion) and then everyone assumed Cooper had said 15.
There was the stuff in Tosaw's book where the 15 request didn't come the first time Cooper said "flaps down". Supposedly Soderlind (who's not on the plane) got told it after he asked when he was calculating distance. Soderlind assumed they had probed Cooper again (my memory of Tosaw's account) but maybe they didn't.
So maybe Cooper never did say 15. Someone said it, and then everyone (including Rat.) started assuming Cooper had said it?
It's plausible I guess.
Some of the communications with the cabin were direct by phone from Cooper to someone right? So if that someone said something, others might assume it came from Cooper.
(edit) PAUL is likely Paul Soderlind. We've discussed him before.
(edit) fixed misspelling of P.S. last name.
(edit) FIXED a 2nd time. my memory was really bad. This is correct now. Search for "paul soderlind" posted by snowmman to get more background on him.
Good highlight, Orange1.
Maybe this was when 15 got introduced into the conversation. It got said (it was a reasonable technical opinion) and then everyone assumed Cooper had said 15.
There was the stuff in Tosaw's book where the 15 request didn't come the first time Cooper said "flaps down". Supposedly Soderlind (who's not on the plane) got told it after he asked when he was calculating distance. Soderlind assumed they had probed Cooper again (my memory of Tosaw's account) but maybe they didn't.
So maybe Cooper never did say 15. Someone said it, and then everyone (including Rat.) started assuming Cooper had said it?
It's plausible I guess.
Some of the communications with the cabin were direct by phone from Cooper to someone right? So if that someone said something, others might assume it came from Cooper.
(edit) PAUL is likely Paul Soderlind. We've discussed him before.
(edit) fixed misspelling of P.S. last name.
(edit) FIXED a 2nd time. my memory was really bad. This is correct now. Search for "paul soderlind" posted by snowmman to get more background on him.
snowmman 3
QuoteEven though 99% of so called "bombs" used by robbers/hijackers are non existent or fake, better to err on the side of caution. Many years ago a disgrunteld gambler called Harrahs Club Casino in Reno NV (as I recall) trying to extort money with a bomb threat. The building was evacuated but everyone thought it was just another fake. He didn't get the money and KABOOM!!! A HUGE bomb was detonated. The culprit, a former WW2 Luftwaffe pilot, had disguised the bomb as an IBM mainfame unit and had it delivered and positioned for installation in the Casino's IT center.
377
that's actually a very amazing story. 7 people arrested altogether. Largest domestic bomb until the WTC 1993 bombing.
John Birges 1980
bomb had at least 8 trigger mechanisms.
850 lbs of dynamite
disguised as a copy machine.
Harvey's Resort hotel
ransom note left with the delivery demanded $3 million
two steel boxes, one on top of another.
bottom box had most of the explosives.
smaller top box had 8 switches.
1200 lbs (400 lbs of steel)
apparently even a toilet float that was rigged to trigger if the bomb was dunked in water.
The bomb blew when they tried to deactivate it.
nobody killed.
day after, John Jr. given a traffic ticket for speeding. CHP officer remembered him and his father.
They tried to deliver the money via helicopter but couldn't find the people to deliver it to. Some said the ransom note had an error. Some say the strobe light that was supposed to signal the helicopter had a battery problem.
dynamite was stolen from a hydroelectric project in Fresno.
Dad was mad because he lost $1M supposedly to the casinos?
He was a landscaper. Big landscaping business is where he got his money. Supposedly used his knowledge of sprinkler systems to build the bomb.
It took him 3 weeks to build in his garage.
Dad died in 1996.
Two younger Birges refused to help. Dad had two laborers help move the bomb.
(edit) a number of good articles online. summary and some pics here:
http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/article/20080828/NEWS/808289997
snowmman 3
Quote
Snowmman-Also a guess- stairs have hydraulics to lift them, but do the lift cylinders act as dampers and extension limiters for lowering?? Kind of like how a forklift can lower slowly, even with the engine off. The lever isn't using any power, just releasing the pressure and fluid at a controlled rate.
that's exactly what I was thinking. But if that is true, you would think the stairs wouldn't pop back up quickly either, like in the test drop for the pressure bump. Unless there was some kind of sliding pivot point or something.
I can't imagine how the mechanical design was so that it could lift hydraulically..but then also be able to be pushed up by wind in flight...I guess some kind of sliding pivot point maybe for the hydraulics?
but if there's a sliding pivot or something, then I would think it would allow the ramp to drop as fast as it could bump up too?
And if it drops, it whacks the tarmac.
It'd be nice to find a video of the rear stairs coming down as well as going open, to see what happens.
The stairs are complicated
1) They get raised by hydraulics
2) They supposedly drop by gravity somehow
3) They can bump up when unweighted by Cooper, and almost close
4) They can hang open halfway in flight (the braniff pics)
5) They somehow need to lower without smashing against the tarmac, because the part that touches the tarmac forms the outer skin and doesn't want to be damaged?
snowmman 3
responding to georger's comments:
"Here, dynamite sticks are not red, but ochre.
The sticks in his briefcase were red. Road flares are red."
I posted an assortment of dynamite wrappers before. Some are red. In Oregon there's a lot of dynamite for logging. Dupont made some special just for loggers. That was brown. Brown dynamite still gets found in Oregon. So yeah, red is likely not dynamite, but could be.
"There was also something about the size and shape
of the sticks, something about the apparent lack of fuses. Something about the type of battery
having enough voltage to set dynamite fuses off.
No apparent switch for the bomb."
We talked about the length and width of the standard dynamite stick before. You wouldn't be able to see the blasting cap on a quick glance. However the issue of battery voltage (without a dc-dc convertor+capacitor) would be an issue. Blasting caps are triggered by current (well specified range with some variance depending on the blasting cap). You need a certain voltage to get the required current. If you hook more blasting caps up, you need more voltage. DC-DC converter would be pretty easy to have nowadays. A little harder, electronics-wise in 1971.
However note: The large size of the dry cell, which gives it the ability to deliver a lot of current, is exactly what you want for blasting caps: the ability to deliver a lot of current. So 1.5V to a blasting cap might have worked. You wouldn't want to test it. (the blasting caps have variance. Some might work)
In short, a single dry cell, which was likely 1.5V from the description is very marginal for getting a blasting cap to go. 3V is more like a minimum. I think 6V is what military manuals might talk about more.
"He had the briefcase OPEN showing Tina the bomb briefly and said 'all he had to do was touch these two wires together' and the bomb would go off."
I've read that in a couple of places and always wondered if that was true. Don't know.
"OPEN the briefcase to set the bomb off? No outside
switch? He kept the briefcase closed the rest of the time! (How is he going to set the bomb off if rushed
and cant get the case open in time?)"
There was another hijack where the guy had his fake bomb in a paper bag that he showed to the crew. He had a timer (clock) in there. I thought "that's smart, showing a detonator"...but it's obviously stupid, because you don't want a delayed trigger if you're using a bomb as a weapon in a hijack. You want it to go off now, if necessary.
"Here, dynamite sticks are not red, but ochre.
The sticks in his briefcase were red. Road flares are red."
I posted an assortment of dynamite wrappers before. Some are red. In Oregon there's a lot of dynamite for logging. Dupont made some special just for loggers. That was brown. Brown dynamite still gets found in Oregon. So yeah, red is likely not dynamite, but could be.
"There was also something about the size and shape
of the sticks, something about the apparent lack of fuses. Something about the type of battery
having enough voltage to set dynamite fuses off.
No apparent switch for the bomb."
We talked about the length and width of the standard dynamite stick before. You wouldn't be able to see the blasting cap on a quick glance. However the issue of battery voltage (without a dc-dc convertor+capacitor) would be an issue. Blasting caps are triggered by current (well specified range with some variance depending on the blasting cap). You need a certain voltage to get the required current. If you hook more blasting caps up, you need more voltage. DC-DC converter would be pretty easy to have nowadays. A little harder, electronics-wise in 1971.
However note: The large size of the dry cell, which gives it the ability to deliver a lot of current, is exactly what you want for blasting caps: the ability to deliver a lot of current. So 1.5V to a blasting cap might have worked. You wouldn't want to test it. (the blasting caps have variance. Some might work)
In short, a single dry cell, which was likely 1.5V from the description is very marginal for getting a blasting cap to go. 3V is more like a minimum. I think 6V is what military manuals might talk about more.
"He had the briefcase OPEN showing Tina the bomb briefly and said 'all he had to do was touch these two wires together' and the bomb would go off."
I've read that in a couple of places and always wondered if that was true. Don't know.
"OPEN the briefcase to set the bomb off? No outside
switch? He kept the briefcase closed the rest of the time! (How is he going to set the bomb off if rushed
and cant get the case open in time?)"
There was another hijack where the guy had his fake bomb in a paper bag that he showed to the crew. He had a timer (clock) in there. I thought "that's smart, showing a detonator"...but it's obviously stupid, because you don't want a delayed trigger if you're using a bomb as a weapon in a hijack. You want it to go off now, if necessary.
georger 256
QuoteQuoteTina gave a very good description of the bomb, over the radio to ground control.
And yet everyone still firmly believed it really was a bomb, despite your points above?
No, they didnt. They knew it might be a fake.
They arent idiots. It was one of the frustrations of
the evening, and one of th reason GC asked for
Mucklow to give a description of the bomb. But are
you going to walk up to Cooper and ask to see
and examine the bomb?
I suppose following 377's line of thought, they could
have pulled out their "Super Duper K-9 Bomb Sniffer"
and walked up and pointed the sniffer at Cooper and the briefcase?
georger 256
and on the other hand there are plentyQuoteEven though 99% of so called "bombs" used by robbers/hijackers are non existent or fake, better to err on the side of caution. Many years ago a disgrunteld gambler called Harrahs Club Casino in Reno NV (as I recall) trying to extort money with a bomb threat. The building was evacuated but everyone thought it was just another fake. He didn't get the money and KABOOM!!! A HUGE bomb was detonated. The culprit, a former WW2 Luftwaffe pilot, had disguised the bomb as an IBM mainfame unit and had it delivered and positioned for installation in the Casino's IT center.
377
of real bombers with real bombs .... who is going to
second guess it?
377 22
QuoteYou need a certain voltage to get the required current. If you hook more blasting caps up, you need more voltage. DC-DC converter would be pretty easy to have nowadays. A little harder, electronics-wise in 1971.
Snow,
If your explosives tutorial post didnt trigger alerts in the homeland security webcrawlers, they need to revise their filters.
Hey, remember eletromechanical vibrators, the pre-transistor way to boost DC voltages? They turned DC into chopped DC or square wave AC depending on the type of vibrator, which could then be boosted by an xfmr then rectified. In many ways they were easier to set up than solid state inverters. They might have been before your time.
I had some of the details wrong but that Harvey's extortion caper was quite something. Hard to believe they could plan something so complex yet fail to have strobe batteries, strobe backups, good diagrams, etc. The money was ready to hand over but the money carriers couldnt find the drop point.
Concerning Cooper's bomb, I wonder how the FBI decided that he would probably not detonate it if his demands were met? If they figured he would blow up the plane after he exited they would have stormed it on the ground before takeoff don't you think?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 256
Concerning Cooper's bomb, I wonder how the FBI decided that he would probably not detonate it if his demands were met? If they figured he would blow up the plane after he exited they would have stormed it on the ground before takeoff don't you think?
377
The FBI made no such decision.
377
Tina pleaded with Cooper and asked, and Cooper replied: 'he would NOT blow up the plane on leaving
or after leaving.' Tina turned and went to the cockpit and conveyed that message to the cockpit crew.'
It's all in past posts at Dropzone.
snowmman 3
Quote
If your explosives tutorial post didnt trigger alerts in the homeland security webcrawlers, they need to revise their filters.
Hey, remember eletromechanical vibrators, the pre-transistor way to boost DC voltages? In many ways they were easier to set up than solid state inverters. They might have been before your time.
well there's vastly more detailed info on the web.
And with some photoflash capacitors, and a small 9v battery, you probably wouldn't even need a dc-dc converter. So maybe if Cooper really wanted a detonator back then, he could have done something you couldn't even had seen..but that wouldn't have been so impressive? His use of a large battery may have been part of his "good show" thinking?
in terms of airplane security:
The only safety that really exists is making sure that it takes a certain physical size of explosive to down a plane. And it's possible to screen/protect against that amount of explosive. Once things are physically small, it's basically impossible to protect against them. I mean, the basic detonator stuff can be incredibly small nowadays. Luckily, a small amount of explosives isn't the worst thing in the world.
I mean it's real simple: if you look at the technologies available in the world today (somewhere), and you look at an airplane..well you have to say airplanes are unsafe, since they can be caused to crash, by an individual, with relatively small disturbances. So are cars. Trains too.
So what's the problem? That assholes exist? That planes are weak technology? That 250 million guns exist in the US? That countries sell military explosives? It's just a combination of all that. We are what we are.
There is no "security thru obscurity" argument that works nowadays.
Trying to restrict knowledge doesn't work.
Atomic proliferation control, thru trying to control information, hasn't worked, obviously.
Here's an interesting vid of what happens nowdays if a hijacker is violent (3 passengers had been killed before this storming)
1994. France.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzYJ4By7sjo
i.e. they don't care about the plane anymore. grenades, bombs, shooting. etc.
wolfriverjoe 1,523
Quotethat's exactly what I was thinking. But if that is true, you would think the stairs wouldn't pop back up quickly either, like in the test drop for the pressure bump. Unless there was some kind of sliding pivot point or something.
I can't imagine how the mechanical design was so that it could lift hydraulically..but then also be able to be pushed up by wind in flight...I guess some kind of sliding pivot point maybe for the hydraulics?
but if there's a sliding pivot or something, then I would think it would allow the ramp to drop as fast as it could bump up too?
And if it drops, it whacks the tarmac.
It'd be nice to find a video of the rear stairs coming down as well as going open, to see what happens.
The stairs are complicated
1) They get raised by hydraulics
2) They supposedly drop by gravity somehow
3) They can bump up when unweighted by Cooper, and almost close
4) They can hang open halfway in flight (the braniff pics)
5) They somehow need to lower without smashing against the tarmac, because the part that touches the tarmac forms the outer skin and doesn't want to be damaged?
It doesn't seem all that complicated to me. Hydraulics pull it up. The cylinders control the speed of the descent and limit how far down it extends.
Does it actually touch the ground under normal circumstances? The Danang experience seems to indicate it doesn't drag during taxi or takeoff.
The halfway open under flight seems to be from the relative wind acting on it. That would be the force pushing up on it when in flight. The force that would slam it shut when Cooper jumed. And the further down it is, the harder it would be pushed up.
And how heavy is it? I'm continually amazed at how light aluminum aircraft parts are. We just trashed our training mockup-a 182 fuselage from the firewall to the back of the cabin, that thing didn't weigh much. The damping would depend on how much it weighs, and how strong the hydraulics are (also depends on weight).
Being at full extension with 200lbs+ (Cooper, money and gear) and having that weight suddenly removed would be a lot of force to control. If the power needed to lift the stairs, and "hold back" needed to keep them from slamming down isn't all that much, then they could slam shut pretty hard after Cooper jumped.
And this is all guesswork and speculation. I have no direct experience with a 727.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
snowmman 3
I was reading about the use of tail stands to prevent tipups like the photo I posted, on 727s and other airplanes at:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/221344/
And found this interesting post. Flight 305 was a 727-051 right, so I guess it had non-locking airstairs like we've been told? Here they're talking about tail support, so they're not talking about Cooper Vane issues.
"I thought common procedure on 727's was to lower the rear air stair for tail support. Is this assembly normally removed during the cargo conversion?"
"When we operated them; our -100's did not have a tail stand, but our -200's did. I always thought it a little strange, because on the -100, the tail stairs did not lock down, but on the -200, they did."
Another post confirming standard procedure to drop the stairs
(of course we're not talking 1971)
"You are correct at least when I worked at nwa when we had the 727 you always dropped the aft airstairs after arrival for just that purpose. FedEx has the airstairs but also has tailstands in their 727's.."
But then at DHL
"I have seen Amerijet use the aft stairs as a kind of tail stand. We at DHL, are forbidden to use the stairs as a tail stand, we have tailstands on the B727 and on the A300 we hold the nose with a tether as a means to hold the nose to the ground."
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/221344/
And found this interesting post. Flight 305 was a 727-051 right, so I guess it had non-locking airstairs like we've been told? Here they're talking about tail support, so they're not talking about Cooper Vane issues.
"I thought common procedure on 727's was to lower the rear air stair for tail support. Is this assembly normally removed during the cargo conversion?"
"When we operated them; our -100's did not have a tail stand, but our -200's did. I always thought it a little strange, because on the -100, the tail stairs did not lock down, but on the -200, they did."
Another post confirming standard procedure to drop the stairs
(of course we're not talking 1971)
"You are correct at least when I worked at nwa when we had the 727 you always dropped the aft airstairs after arrival for just that purpose. FedEx has the airstairs but also has tailstands in their 727's.."
But then at DHL
"I have seen Amerijet use the aft stairs as a kind of tail stand. We at DHL, are forbidden to use the stairs as a tail stand, we have tailstands on the B727 and on the A300 we hold the nose with a tether as a means to hold the nose to the ground."
snowmman 3
here's a report from the NASA event gathering system (online)
It's interesting because it confirms the stairs can fall down. There was "wear" here, don't know how much that contributed, or if that was just part of the not-locked thing, and they would always fall down. (From everything we know, it seems like they would always fall down)
http://www.37000feet.com/report/262304
jan 1994
B-727 freighter operated with a misdiagnosis on the inoperative aft stair light warning system.
The WX in the northeast had been bitterly cold -- record low temperatures. The ramp was covered with a layer of compacted snow and ice. The 'aft airstair' unlocked light on our b- 727 had been deferred by maintenance. So, besides the normal verification from the mechanic that the stairs were up and locked, we had no indication that the stairs might be unlocked, i.e., the unlocked light was illuminated. During the pushback at ewr the mechanic saw the stairs come unlocked and fall down. The push was stopped temporarily. Because the ramp was icy, the stairs slid easily and no damage resulted. The mechanic reclosed and locked the stairs up. The push continued and we departed for roc. The flight was uneventful. After landing on runway 22 we taxied northeast on taxiway B. Ground control at roc asked us if we knew we were dragging our aft stairs. Obviously, we didn't know and immediately stopped taxiing. We called our maintenance in roc. They came out, put the stairs back up and followed us to the gate to ensure that the stairs remained up. The mechanic said he found ice on some control cables, broke them free and now 'all was well.' the captain prudently decided that additional trouble-shooting was indicated. We went into crew rest. That evening we showed to fly roc to dtw to ewr. Maintenance had found the stair operating mechanism worn. The stairs were secured up and inoperative. The 2 legs were flown uneventfully. Another fine' murphian' example.
It's interesting because it confirms the stairs can fall down. There was "wear" here, don't know how much that contributed, or if that was just part of the not-locked thing, and they would always fall down. (From everything we know, it seems like they would always fall down)
http://www.37000feet.com/report/262304
jan 1994
B-727 freighter operated with a misdiagnosis on the inoperative aft stair light warning system.
The WX in the northeast had been bitterly cold -- record low temperatures. The ramp was covered with a layer of compacted snow and ice. The 'aft airstair' unlocked light on our b- 727 had been deferred by maintenance. So, besides the normal verification from the mechanic that the stairs were up and locked, we had no indication that the stairs might be unlocked, i.e., the unlocked light was illuminated. During the pushback at ewr the mechanic saw the stairs come unlocked and fall down. The push was stopped temporarily. Because the ramp was icy, the stairs slid easily and no damage resulted. The mechanic reclosed and locked the stairs up. The push continued and we departed for roc. The flight was uneventful. After landing on runway 22 we taxied northeast on taxiway B. Ground control at roc asked us if we knew we were dragging our aft stairs. Obviously, we didn't know and immediately stopped taxiing. We called our maintenance in roc. They came out, put the stairs back up and followed us to the gate to ensure that the stairs remained up. The mechanic said he found ice on some control cables, broke them free and now 'all was well.' the captain prudently decided that additional trouble-shooting was indicated. We went into crew rest. That evening we showed to fly roc to dtw to ewr. Maintenance had found the stair operating mechanism worn. The stairs were secured up and inoperative. The 2 legs were flown uneventfully. Another fine' murphian' example.
snowmman 3
as we've discussed, there are a number of details a 727 hijacker should be aware of.
I just found this set of class notes that neatly summarizes knowledge that might be important :)
Curiously, there are from the Netherlands. Now Orange1 may disavow any connection, but then why would she be hiding in Africa?
http://www.brandweerschiphol.nl/instructie/vliegtuigen/boeing/boeing_727_01.pdf
page 16 has the external stair operation instructions, as well as the internal (snap attached)
It mentions the stairs being locked into place.
on internal operation it says
"...stairs will freefall into position (see attached)
page 17 has some nice figures showing where everything is.
Also warns to "stay clear of falling stairs" when opening?
(edit) from the other post, it seems like there might be some cable stuff, along with the hydraulics? Maybe the cables are part of the "slow lower" mechanism.
I just found this set of class notes that neatly summarizes knowledge that might be important :)
Curiously, there are from the Netherlands. Now Orange1 may disavow any connection, but then why would she be hiding in Africa?
http://www.brandweerschiphol.nl/instructie/vliegtuigen/boeing/boeing_727_01.pdf
page 16 has the external stair operation instructions, as well as the internal (snap attached)
It mentions the stairs being locked into place.
on internal operation it says
"...stairs will freefall into position (see attached)
page 17 has some nice figures showing where everything is.
Also warns to "stay clear of falling stairs" when opening?
(edit) from the other post, it seems like there might be some cable stuff, along with the hydraulics? Maybe the cables are part of the "slow lower" mechanism.
And yet everyone still firmly believed it really was a bomb, despite your points above?
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