DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

[reply

It'd be nice to find a video of the rear stairs coming down as well as going open, to see what happens.

The stairs are complicated
1) They get raised by hydraulics
2) They supposedly drop by gravity somehow
3) They can bump up when unweighted by Cooper, and almost close
4) They can hang open halfway in flight (the braniff pics)
5) They somehow need to lower without smashing against the tarmac, because the part that touches the tarmac forms the outer skin and doesn't want to be damaged?

[low_pull1 2]

Question: In reading the recent posts I have a serious question.
Remember way back after the transcripts came out in the forum.
There was a mention of Cooper going to the bathroom (I am curious as to why the crew didn't do something at that time).

Also WHAT the HELL did he do with the BOMB when he went to the bathroom?

Until this forum I had heard no mention of Cooper going to the bathroom - is that really in the transcripts or is it Myth?

................................

and what did he mean by saying he would be in there a while???? andy why would cooper say this?? To deter the crew??

[snowmman 3]

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This is a two phase thing. The lower stairs is variable - controled manually or with mechancisms - both interchangeably. I don't know how to explain to you what this is - I have seen it down on the tarmac - it is fully extended at that time. What lowers out of the belly is several feet off the ground and an extension comes down - just how this extension is controlled I don't know.

Hi Jo,
I've posted pics, video, and now figures and descriptions.
The video doesn't show any behavior like what you're trying to describe (it's showing the stairs being raised)

The thing you're calling the extension is the moving door that shuts against the plane. The fixed part is up inside the plane.
That's all there is, except for the aft door which I've also posted pics of.

I've posted pics of stairs from the outside, and from the inside looking down.

I can't think of anything I've not posted.

Your description doesn't seem to align with any of that.

There is no manual "variable" control from what I can tell. You can initiate the lifting with a button, apparently, that triggers the hydraulics?. The manual pages I posted have levers that initiate the drop from either inside or outside.
There is no extension of anything that comes out of the belly. Unless you're talking about the pivoting "door/stairs"

There's just the thing that pivots down.

There is no "two phase" thing.

The average distance of the cabin floor to ground, with wheels extended, is 9 feet 1 inch.

I've not counted the stairs, (edit) I went and looked at pics after typing that, and counted the stairs. Let's look at the probable riser heights for each stair (they all should be equal otherwise that's also a tripping hazard...residential codes have a tolerance that's pretty small: ( 3/16" adjacent, 3/8" between any?)

People get used to an expected riser height on stairs. Local codes for buildings might limit it to < 8-1/4" or 7-3/4" in.
7 to 7-1/2" is typical.

I think I count 15 or 16 steps total. To get a 9 feet 1 inch vertical height, each riser would be 109/15 = 7.26" so that's about right for meeting what people expect to avoid tripping.

In fact I just noticed looking at a pic, that the fixed stairs are wider on either side than the pivoting stairs. It looks like there are 4 fixed steps, and then 11 or 12 on the pivoting part. (12 if you count the ground)

Short answer Jo: I think your understanding of the stair operations is not correct?

(edit) that manual I posted say avg. 9ft 1" from cabin floor to ground with wheels extended. The cabin floor is a bit above the lower outside skin. basically the fixed stairs cover the vertical distance from skin to cabin floor.

[Orange1 0]

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as we've discussed, there are a number of details a 727 hijacker should be aware of.

I just found this set of class notes that neatly summarizes knowledge that might be important :)

Curiously, there are from the Netherlands. Now Orange1 may disavow any connection, but then why would she be hiding in Africa?

http://www.brandweerschiphol.nl/instructie/vliegtuigen/boeing/boeing_727_01.pdf

page 16 has the external stair operation instructions, as well as the internal (snap attached)

It mentions the stairs being locked into place.

on internal operation it says
"...stairs will freefall into position (see attached)

page 17 has some nice figures showing where everything is.

Also warns to "stay clear of falling stairs" when opening?

(edit) from the other post, it seems like there might be some cable stuff, along with the hydraulics? Maybe the cables are part of the "slow lower" mechanism.

the url name you post tells me the instructions come from the fire brigade at Schipohl airport, in fact the English translation would be firebrigadeschipohl/instructions/airplanes/boeing etc.

It is a great airport btw, if you ever need to layover on a trip to Europe, choosing KLM and Schipohl is a good choice
Snow, I already told you Africa is a good place to disappear with your dollars

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/arff/arff727.pdf
is a shorter version of similar info from Boeing. Not as much stair detail. dates 10/31/2007

I wondering if Boeing removed some info on purpose?

Hey I just noticed that the figure drawing in that page17 jpg I posted is accurate for step count. It seems to align with the number of steps in the photos.

For an an emergency exit, it kind of makes sense that they would design it so no hydraulics are needed? in case the hydraulic system failed in the accident..? Maybe that's why it seems odd.

(edit) Never been to Netherlands. Germany yes. Beautiful.
Never been to Africa.

[snowmman 3]

Ckret had posted this about the bathroom. I just noticed that the passengers were still on board when he was in the bathroom.

Of course he would bring the briefcase. But I just noticed that he took the bag also. I hadn't realized that. Wouldn't that mean the bag had something important? Either he didn't want someone to take it, or he was going to use it in the bathroom?

Interesting.

Ckret said:
"He was in the bathroom for a "few minutes" whatever that means.

He took his briefcase and bag with him.

He looked no different when he came out; maybe a half pound lighter.

Yes, the bathroom was processed.

The crew did not try to leave the plane, at this time the passengers were still onboard."

[georger 256]

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Question: In reading the recent posts I have a serious question.
Remember way back after the transcripts came out in the forum.
There was a mention of Cooper going to the bathroom (I am curious as to why the crew didn't do something at that time).

Also WHAT the HELL did he do with the BOMB when he went to the bathroom?

Until this forum I had heard no mention of Cooper going to the bathroom - is that really in the transcripts or is it Myth?

................................

and what did he mean by saying he would be in there a while???? andy why would cooper say this?? To deter the crew??

ANSWER: Go to this website and download the PI
and NWA Transcripts for yourself:

http://n467us.com/

You will have to read them. Nobody can do that for you.

[georger 256]

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Ckret had posted this about the bathroom. I just noticed that the passengers were still on board when he was in the bathroom.

ANSWER: Go to this website and download the Transcripts
and read them -

http://n467us.com/

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[georger 256]

Here are some websites where the Cooper case is
mentioned. Maybe you missed these before - ?

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19711124-0

http://yakfreak.aviation.at/vap/prolist.php?airport=&suche=N467US&anzahlbilder=10&submit=submit

http://www.angelfire.com/il2/aphs/wheels/wheels.html

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3108191/

http://www.super70s.com/super70s/news/1971/november/24-DB_Cooper_Part2.asp

http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/NWA305-DBCooper.htm

nice n647us photo at
http://www.jetpiedmont.com/gallery/?CID=17&AC=721

http://www.weirdstory.org/dbcooper.html

Asian perspective and log keeping track of DB Cooper case:
http://www.perfspot.com/profile.asp?uid=36675291-90B2-49CF-A9

http://fromtheflightdeck.com/Reviews/727/DBCooper/

http://clublexus.com/forums/the-clubhouse/368041-the-d-b-cooper-story-a-mystery.html

http://tripatlas.com/D._B._Cooper

http://www.yazdjavan.com/farsi/index2.php?option=com_content&

http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/fleets/nw.html

[Orange1 0]

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http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/arff/arff727.pdf
is a shorter version of similar info from Boeing. Not as much stair detail. dates 10/31/2007

I wondering if Boeing removed some info on purpose?

Hey I just noticed that the figure drawing in that page17 jpg I posted is accurate for step count. It seems to align with the number of steps in the photos.

For an an emergency exit, it kind of makes sense that they would design it so no hydraulics are needed? in case the hydraulic system failed in the accident..? Maybe that's why it seems odd.

(edit) Never been to Netherlands. Germany yes. Beautiful.
Never been to Africa.

Makes sense they would need something in case of hydraulics failure.

Amsterdam is a lovely city, ruled by bicycles. Germany is beautiful, as is most of Europe. Africa is fantastic, at least the southern African countries I have visited. We have had a huge increase in American tourists the past 5 years or so (may change now obviously) with Cape Town and "going on safari" (or what we locals would simply call "visiting game reserves") high on the agenda. Kruger Park, Addo Elephant Park in SA, Victoria Falls (you can stay on the Zambian side but best is to visit both Zim and Zambia), Chobe/Okovango Delta in Botswana all fantastic destinations, as is the Fish River Canyon in Namibia (2nd biggest canyon after the Grand Canyon, though I must admit it pales in comparison). Definitely worth the trip. End of plug.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

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Of course he would bring the briefcase. But I just noticed that he took the bag also. I hadn't realized that. Wouldn't that mean the bag had something important? Either he didn't want someone to take it, or he was going to use it in the bathroom?

He took his briefcase and bag with him.

What could he have had in that bag (Do they mean the paper bag?) Was there ever a satchel as has been said before. Seems like satchel and paper bag keep getting buried...but mentioned in the reports.

Was this his communication device? What kind? Walkie Talkie?
Was he communicating with someone inside of the terminal or near the terminal or was he someway monitoring the cockpit?
Remember the SEA-TAC Tocoma parking ticket (what I thought was a parking ticket). Accomplice or his?

Could Cooper have had an accomplice who was inside of the Seattle Airport? Someone he could trust - or who was disposable? Someone who would never turn him in? This person was telling him what was happening inside.

Did the FBI empty the terminal or were personel and passengers departing and arriving on other planes allowed to continue with business as usual?

Was there wire in there that he mounted to a back brace he was wearing (old kind with metal staves)? Wire could have been used as a weapon. Did he utilize the battery some way for communication?

They mentioned Cooper was compact - what did he have on under those clothes? Or was the compaction actually an extended abdomen? He had on a raincoat, a jacket and long underwear...was this why the word compact was used in describing Cooper?

Come on someone let's figure out what could be in that paper bag about the size of a lunch bag.

I am going back to a story I told a long time ago. Something said to me by the ex-wife and something Duane told me. The 2 of them worked in an airport for a wk or two - cleaning the planes and delivering the catered meals. WHERE did they work and when? I could never get the FBI to investigate this. She NEVER told me where even when I asked. I don't remember his saying where.
I will guess - Miami,Phoenix, Denver, Atlanta, CA, KS, MN and WA as likely places. Remember she mentioned 2 airplane or airline companies - somewhere back in my posts you will find those.

I had the name of one twisted around and we went on a wild goose chase. I am not going to try to look it up right now.

Sorry, I promised to stay out of this - but when something is said that triggers a memory (even when it is something I have said before) I get carried away. That Damn paper bag - I can't get it out of my mind - it keeps bugging me.

Regarding the aftstairs - the opening that comes down doesn't go all the way to the ground - there are a few steps that extend past the edge of that...I don't understand all the technical talk. These steps be it 2 or 3 or 4 or what come down out of the stairwell to the ground...they extend I guess is the word I am looking for...when the stairwell goes back up they collapse back into the stairwell so the don't damage the stairwell opening. I don't know how to explain what I am trying to tell you. I am really a Simple Simon on these kind of things. Okay, Most things!

Sorry for the intrusion - I just got carried away.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

playing with the b/w LIFE sketch photo. Browned it to match skin tone better, and got rid of the cheap suit. Gives a little different feel to the sketch.

I think the shirt collar and narrow tie tends to fatten the appearance of his lower face in the original sketch?

[snowmman 3]

Jo said
"Regarding the aftstairs - the opening that comes down doesn't go all the way to the ground - there are a few steps that extend past the edge of that...I don't understand all the technical talk. These steps be it 2 or 3 or 4 or what come down out of the stairwell to the ground...they extend I guess is the word I am looking for...when the stairwell goes back up they collapse back into the stairwell so the don't damage the stairwell opening."

Well Jo that's what I assumed at first also. But there's no picture that shows that. It just seems like a wrong idea?
(edit) Jo: MD-88's are different. You may be thinking of MD-88's?

I posted snaps from the 727 video even. (of the stair raising)

here they are again. I've added sluggo's airstair photo, so you can clearly see the round "skin" impacting the tarmac.

There are no extra steps like you're suggesting. Where did you get that info from?

Here's another thing. We never got it settled what it actually meant when they said a light indicated the stairs were fully extended. The implication was that Cooper could be ready to jump. But I'm thinking that's not what the light meant. (I guess we all just assumed that's true). But we should get the tech detail on what lights are in the cockpit related to the aft stairs and door.

Maybe there's just a light for the aft door? I think there's an alarm light for any door unlocked.

(edit) since the stair instructions mention standing on the stairs and giving them a yank to help "lock" them, and they drop in freefall to ground that might be dirt? I'm guessing there is no light for "fully extended" because that's a fuzzily defined condition. Maybe for "stairs unlocked" instead. Did that story about the stairs dropping and the pilots not noticing talk about a misfunctioning light? I'll check.

[snowmman 3]

from my post about the crew that had their stairs drop and not notice and were dragging it behind them (on ice)

"The WX in the northeast had been bitterly cold -- record low temperatures. The ramp was covered with a layer of compacted snow and ice. The 'aft airstair' unlocked light on our b- 727 had been deferred by maintenance"

So: I think it's probably true that the stuff about the light indicating the stairs were "fully extended" is wrong.

I'm not sure though where I got that "fully extended" thing from.
I guess the transcripts do mention a light early on. I'm not sure how we interpreted that as fully extended.

(edit) we had speculated thru this before. just reviewing I guess and synchronizing with the latest stuff I posted.

[snowmman 3]

We've assumed this model of river drift, that says that 100 bundles deposited in the Columbia would disperse randomly.

However, it's interesting that the Columbia main current would be shifting from left bank (S bank) to right bank (N bank) before Tena Bar, because of the big curve there. That's what apparently happens when rivers meander.

I've posted before on oil spills from down further, ending up on Frenchman's Bar, which makes sense also.

In any case, here's some interesting info about random drifting things. I was looking at the stuff they've done studying that big load of rubber duckies that spilled in the ocean in 1992. They've tracked them all over the world since then (thousands)

Well these guys dumped a determined number of bottles across random places in the oceans, with notes inside, to track drift.

They dumped 15,000 bottles, and got a 4% return rate.

They have some stories that are interesting, in terms of bottles travelling a long way, and ending up in the same place:


"Hooper Bay must be a drift bottle magnet. Reports of more than fifty bottles have been received from this area, all washed ashore from the same drop location, roughly 200 kilometers away."

"Bob Funk's pair of bottles washed up in Yakutat Bay only 20 feet apart from each other and were found September 7th, 2000"

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/SCI/osap/projects/driftbottle/intro_e.htm

[skyjack71 0]

Seems like we got a lot of pics and many of them look very different - wonder if that design was ever messed with or modified. That last one with the stairs on the ground was the first time I had seen it from that direction. At least I don't have to puzzle over that anymore -helped me answer a lot of questions I had in my mind.

What I saw must not have been a 727...it was not that solid and study looking.

I really didn't know it would be that sturdy looking. The way it appears it doesn't look like to me it would have been all that difficult to jump from. If he didn't have to back down the stairwell because of the wind force he had a pretty good idea of his target if he knew the land pretty well...and the visibility was there.

Question for the skydivers - HAVE ANY OF YOU EVER JUMPED FROM A 727? There must be someone out there who has done this - be interesting to see what they have to say.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 256]

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We've assumed this model of river drift, that says that 100 bundles deposited in the Columbia would disperse randomly.

Reply! Who is this WE?

You, yourself, and Jo Weber?

I certainly have never assumed this!

Georger

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[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

We've assumed this model of river drift, that says that 100 bundles deposited in the Columbia would disperse randomly.

Reply! Who is this WE?

You, yourself, and Jo Weber?

I certainly have never assumed this!

Georger

we as in me and Cooper. He keeps telling me that we can find the rest of the money.

I have to improve my Photoshop skills. There's actually software that will help you rotate a 2d face/head to match a new angle.

attached picture was found in a 1971 phone book from New Jersey. There was some water damage so the image is distorted.

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[snowmman 3]

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I really didn't know it would be that sturdy looking. The way it appears it doesn't look like to me it would have been all that difficult to jump from. If he didn't have to back down the stairwell because of the wind force he had a pretty good idea of his target if he knew the land pretty well...and the visibility was there.

Question for the skydivers - HAVE ANY OF YOU EVER JUMPED FROM A 727? There must be someone out there who has done this - be interesting to see what they have to say.

this has already been beat to death. people said DC-9 and 727 jumped. stairs removed in both cases. No one has jumped from stairs. (movable stairs). There were pics posted of the 727 exit (the one with duct tape on the seams of the panels?), but there's nothing interesting to see there. No stairs.

[Orange1 0]

LOL! (pic)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[low_pull1 2]

playing with the b/w LIFE sketch photo. Browned it to match skin tone better, and got rid of the cheap suit. Gives a little different feel to the sketch.

I think the shirt collar and narrow tie tends to fatten the appearance of his lower face in the original sketch?
..................

could this be a young/thinner Bob Caffin? sp. Who has a picture?

[low_pull1 2]

im sure this is posted....both look like the sketch

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page2453.html?theme=light

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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im sure this is posted....both look like the sketch

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page2453.html?theme=light

Fixed the clicky.

Haven't seen that site before, but it's Gosset, even though the name isn't given.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[georger 256]

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here's a report from the NASA event gathering system (online)
It's interesting because it confirms the stairs can fall down. There was "wear" here, don't know how much that contributed, or if that was just part of the not-locked thing, and they would always fall down. (From everything we know, it seems like they would always fall down)

We called our maintenance in roc. They came out, put the stairs back up ..........

REPLY> so, if they can fall down so easily once
'unlocked', how do you get them backup so easily?

Especially if this is a hydraulic system? It must be
a weak hydraulic system?

Sounds like the aint guys just push them back up
(from the outside) , or pull them up (from the inside)?

G.

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[georger 256]

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as we've discussed, there are a number of details a 727 hijacker should be aware of.

Note: when 305 landed at Reno the rear stairs were
dragging... CBS coverage noted this and remarked 'sparks from the rear stairs dragging....'

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