snowmman 3
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georger 247
Quotegeorger said
"
I keep going back to Scott telling H he thought
after reflecting, he was EAST of V23... that brings
us to the area Jerry is searching. I think!??? "
I thought we buried that as a bullshit misquote of the Norjak book by an writer. (remember the story about another pilot H. told in the Norjak book?)
Am I wrong?
What's your source for this East of V23 thing?
I thought we agreed it was just rumor and the Scott/H meeting never happened.
My source is: it keeps coming up. I dont know if
the meeting ever occurred or not, but it keeps
coming up in coversations behind the scene here.
The only person that can verify if Scott told H
(at H's retirement) he was east of V23, is H himself.
It sounds as if Shelly and Jerry may know something more. They know H very well. They can ask H if
they chose to.
Let's just be patient especially now that we have
solid sources to work with. This is a golden
opportunity and we must cover these bases and settle old myths etc...
Georger
snowmman 3
"keeps coming up in coversations behind the scene here. "
conversations with who? Where did they get it from?
conversations with who? Where did they get it from?
georger 247
Quote"keeps coming up in coversations behind the scene here. "
conversations with who? Where did they get it from?
I forgot to add: If you recall I asked Ckret
specifically when he was here: Did Scott say EAST
OR WEST OF THE FP? Ckret answered: EAST ....
I dont know where this comes from! I dont know
if it started with Tosaw or where. Its rather confused
(I think). But wherever it came from its was real enough for Larry to talk about it and answer speficially - east. Then you tried to debunk this
as myth, and you thought you had, and nobody said
much of anything because I dont think any of us knew what to say.... that is the reason it is still alive.
(with me at least).
[I dont know what Wayne or anyone else is going
to say about this. But I think there is something to
this... just as Shelly's description of the winds brings
back the Contenental pilots wind description which
I know for a fact H rejected .... and the strange part of that is neither Scott nor Rat said squat about
severe winds or severe crosds winds at altitude over PDX ............... I dont know. We need answers to
these lingering issues, as I see it. Hope you agree? ]
I must run and do errands ..........
or I get killed at 7:00pm.
OK?
snowmman 3
QuoteQuote"keeps coming up in coversations behind the scene here. "
conversations with who? Where did they get it from?
I forgot to add: If you recall I asked Ckret
specifically when he was here: Did Scott say EAST
OR WEST OF THE FP? Ckret answered: EAST ....
I dont know where this comes from! I dont know
if it started with Tosaw or where. Its rather confused
(I think). But wherever it came from its was real enough for Larry total about it and answer speficially - east. Then you tried to debunk this
as myth, and you thought you had, and nobody said
much of anything because I dont think any of us knew what to say.... that is the reason it is still alive.
(with me at least).
OK?
Hi Georger, I think you're wrong.
1) The DZ.com search index rebuild, to my eye, means that when we search we correctly get results that reflect any edits to posts, unlike before. So using DZ.com search should be accurate now.
2) When I searched for all posts from ckret with the word "east" there were 5. None of them say anything about Ckret confirming stuff about the flight path being east according to Scott. Please search yourself, in case I'm wrong
3) The closest thing was this speculation from ckret: (early on...I don't know how he modified his thoughts over time)
"form the recovery of the money, to me, there is only one option. Cooper jumped further south then what was originally thought to be the most southern jump point and the plane was just a bit further east than what was thought to be the furthest eastern point. This would have put Cooper landing in an area that could have fed into the Columbia and a good reason why he was never found, because he landed in an area out of the search grid. "
(edit) another Ckret post using "east"
"Since there is nothing that reasonably points to someone planting the money, we can rule out any jump point that could not put Cooper near a tributary. If Cooper jumped over or just south of Orchard he would have been blown north and east several miles. If the farthest south jump point shown on the map I posted is 8:12, then where would the plane be at 8:13, 8:14 and 8:15. Also don't forget you could factor in a flight path .5 mile east of the flight path line from Battleground to Salem. "
snowmman 3
I have a little rust colored flag near Dougan Falls at
N 45°40.356' x W 122°9.186' (the 2nd rust flag N of it is Mt. St. Helens. Remember it was taller in 1971)
I created a flight path (purple) that puts 305 going past it and continuing on over the Columbia.
It appears to me, that 305 won't go over Portland then.
So Rat wouldn't have seen the lights of Portland.
I understand promoting different points of view, but I feel like there's additional information I'm missing about this Dougan Falls theory.
I even drew the flight path a little west of Dougan Falls, assuming winds were maybe 220 degrees or so at 10,000 feet.
(attached)
I even avoided a direct line from KSEA, to avoid running into Mt. St. Helens. A directer line brings you within 5 miles of Mt St. Helens, and brings you over terrain up to 5000 ft in elevation.
(edit) added another pic of the same flight path, zoomed out a little bit to show where I started jogging east.
N 45°40.356' x W 122°9.186' (the 2nd rust flag N of it is Mt. St. Helens. Remember it was taller in 1971)
I created a flight path (purple) that puts 305 going past it and continuing on over the Columbia.
It appears to me, that 305 won't go over Portland then.
So Rat wouldn't have seen the lights of Portland.
I understand promoting different points of view, but I feel like there's additional information I'm missing about this Dougan Falls theory.
I even drew the flight path a little west of Dougan Falls, assuming winds were maybe 220 degrees or so at 10,000 feet.
(attached)
I even avoided a direct line from KSEA, to avoid running into Mt. St. Helens. A directer line brings you within 5 miles of Mt St. Helens, and brings you over terrain up to 5000 ft in elevation.
(edit) added another pic of the same flight path, zoomed out a little bit to show where I started jogging east.
377 22
I too wonder about Jerry's search area selection. Must know something that we don't. Could it be that something else from the plane was found there?
Anything wrong with my logic about the high likelihood some of the parachute gear being left behind even if Cooper survived? I see it as either it is all there with the remains of Cooper or some or all of it was left there as he made his way back to civilization. No point in dragging the main canopy out with him.
377
Anything wrong with my logic about the high likelihood some of the parachute gear being left behind even if Cooper survived? I see it as either it is all there with the remains of Cooper or some or all of it was left there as he made his way back to civilization. No point in dragging the main canopy out with him.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
1969912 0
QuoteI too wonder about Jerry's search area selection. Must know something that we don't. Could it be that something else from the plane was found there?
Anything wrong with my logic about the high likelihood some of the parachute gear being left behind even if Cooper survived? I see it as either it is all there with the remains of Cooper or some or all of it was left there as he made his way back to civilization. No point in dragging the main canopy out with him.
377
I'd like to see more on the search area as well.
Also, maybe you can shed some light on how far away the lights of portland might have been visible at that distance altitude ("seeing" the lights could include cloud shine/glow, as well as the lights of Vancouver. Vancouver and Portland are now one big blob with a river bisecting it, but it in the 70's it could have been similar with the exception being that Vancouver lights hadn't spread as far East.)
If Cooper had someone waiting closeby with a vehicle, it would be smart to keep the rig and not leave it there to be found. But if he had to walk/hide for a while it would be best to hide or bury it.
Sorry for my typing, but I got hit with a badshot of gout and am whacked on pain meds
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
snowmman 3
Okay, for my high school science fair project, I tried putting together a plan for hijacking a Piper Cherokee Arrow to Mexico, from Seatac (KSEA). I want to stay under 10,000 ft at all times.
Attached flight path and terrain profile with msl MEA's.
(edit) using only Victor airways.
Dest. is MMHO airport in Mexico, to avoid some of the mountains in Mexico. I can get a quick hop over to Baja then too.
In any case, I've got problems, because they're making me fly thru Reno. (I'm really trying to mimic 305's plans). You can see in my flight/terrain profile I'm not landing at Reno. (I have another flight plan with that. But the Piper still won't have enough fuel even with that stop)
But the problem is, everything was fine until they made me cross over to Reno. Then I had to get to 11500 ft.
And then leaving Reno was a pain, going South too..Had to go to 11500 ft. Had to go to 12000 ft down near Phoenix. (although that MEA doesn't appear to be strictly terrain-demanded?)
Life was good, for my 10,000 ft demand, for a while.
I got past Fort Jones (CA) (just barely) at 10,000 ft, to Redding CA.
Obviously staying on a path to LA then, Phoenix, Tucson, Mexico would have been better.
(edit) in the pic, KMG is a nav thing for Reno. I should have used KRNO for the Reno airport.
Attached flight path and terrain profile with msl MEA's.
(edit) using only Victor airways.
Dest. is MMHO airport in Mexico, to avoid some of the mountains in Mexico. I can get a quick hop over to Baja then too.
In any case, I've got problems, because they're making me fly thru Reno. (I'm really trying to mimic 305's plans). You can see in my flight/terrain profile I'm not landing at Reno. (I have another flight plan with that. But the Piper still won't have enough fuel even with that stop)
But the problem is, everything was fine until they made me cross over to Reno. Then I had to get to 11500 ft.
And then leaving Reno was a pain, going South too..Had to go to 11500 ft. Had to go to 12000 ft down near Phoenix. (although that MEA doesn't appear to be strictly terrain-demanded?)
Life was good, for my 10,000 ft demand, for a while.
I got past Fort Jones (CA) (just barely) at 10,000 ft, to Redding CA.
Obviously staying on a path to LA then, Phoenix, Tucson, Mexico would have been better.
(edit) in the pic, KMG is a nav thing for Reno. I should have used KRNO for the Reno airport.
All,
Just some amplification:
Reel #5 Pages 7, 8, and 9 (18:59 – 19:41) indicate that after a brief discussion of using J-5 the first clearance was given as Victor 23 to Portland.
They advised the company that V-23 was “the best approach to go.” (page 7)
The next clearance was to Sacramento. “that’ll be Victor 23 all the way to Sacramento.” (page 7)
Then takeoff occurred (according to the time marks on the transcript) some time around 0341Z.
SEA ARTCC (which has electronically controlled time stamps) says they were already airborne and at aprox. 6,000 feet at 03:37:17Z.
Anyway V-23 was settled-on BEFORE takeoff.
Also, remember that all points in Mexico (even the western-most point) are EAST of SEA. Any flight that went west would just be wasting fuel. That leaves out SFO even though Rataczak thought is was just a small dogleg, but remember he hadn’t look at the Sectional at that time. He (and Scott) didn’t even know they had sectionals in the cockpit.
Sluggo_Monster
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Blog
NORJAK Forum
Just some amplification:
Reel #5 Pages 7, 8, and 9 (18:59 – 19:41) indicate that after a brief discussion of using J-5 the first clearance was given as Victor 23 to Portland.
They advised the company that V-23 was “the best approach to go.” (page 7)
The next clearance was to Sacramento. “that’ll be Victor 23 all the way to Sacramento.” (page 7)
Then takeoff occurred (according to the time marks on the transcript) some time around 0341Z.
SEA ARTCC (which has electronically controlled time stamps) says they were already airborne and at aprox. 6,000 feet at 03:37:17Z.
Anyway V-23 was settled-on BEFORE takeoff.
Also, remember that all points in Mexico (even the western-most point) are EAST of SEA. Any flight that went west would just be wasting fuel. That leaves out SFO even though Rataczak thought is was just a small dogleg, but remember he hadn’t look at the Sectional at that time. He (and Scott) didn’t even know they had sectionals in the cockpit.
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
wolfriverjoe 1,523
QuoteAnything wrong with my logic about the high likelihood some of the parachute gear being left behind even if Cooper survived? I see it as either it is all there with the remains of Cooper or some or all of it was left there as he made his way back to civilization. No point in dragging the main canopy out with him.
377
That logic makes sense to me. Briefcase bomb, rig, dummy reserve and 21lbs of cash would be a hell of a load. Not to mention the difficulty of carrying/dragging the canopy. He might have used some of it to rig a "carry harness" of some sort (he may have done that in the plane for the jump), but, as was said, unless he had someone waiting to pick him up, carrying all that stuff makes no sense at all.
The thread about the gear found in the forest in Sweden makes me believe it could still be identifiable if not somewhat intact. The level of habitation around what we think is the LZ seems to indicate that he buried it or stashed it or something. Or Jerry is right about the LZ and it's in the middle of some very inhospitable terrain.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
Hey geoger Jerry would like to talk to you and Tom. The information that i post on this forum comes from people Jerry has talked to,yes Jerry has talked to scott this was years ago.As for as Ralphs book is concerned.Ralph would not have let anything be printed in his book that was not true.If there is something in his book that is incorect I'm sure Jerry would know about it and he has said nothing to me.But you know how men are, ha-ha Yes it is true that we or very close to Ralph and his wife but to us they're family and our conversations are not always about this case.So it would be unfair to ask me to ask him certain questions.I realy hope all of you understand. I can tell you what i know to be fact about this case and yes we do know things that others do not but the reason for that comes from actually being on the ground and seeing how the landscape and the weather is. About the weather that nite my information comes from the fact that i lived in washougal at the time.Here is somthing I bet you guys didn't know.It can be raining on your next door neighbor and you'll never see a drop fall on your house that is very common here. About the winds in this area you must remember it is the mouth of the columbia river gourge that we are talking about and the winds push North east and east normally.There's alot of gust and turbulants and there not always recorded or mentioned and the weather man is the one that never seems to no what he is talking about. Shelly
snowmman 3
QuoteHey geoger Jerry would like to talk to you and Tom.
hmm. I'm off the A-list already!
QuoteAs for as Ralphs book is concerned.Ralph would not have let anything be printed in his book that was not true.If there is something in his book that is incorect I'm sure Jerry would know about it and he has said nothing to me.
I have the book. It was done with a co-writer who cobbled some of the info from newspaper articles. It is unclear what was written by H. and what was by the co-writer. If you say H. fact-checked it, okay, that's probably true.
Are you saying you think there is a reference to a meeting with Scott in that book, that talked about the flight path? I've read the book, I own the book. I didnt' see it. I may have overlooked it.
What page? I can verify if I'm told a page.
I guess I don't understand why the Norjak book is being brought up. In reference to what?
snowmman 3
Hi Sluggo
SFO is only important if you're equally serious about 10,000 ft, as well as conserving fuel.
If you're willing to go above 10,000 ft then there were even better options right off the bat?
So what happened, is that a mixed plan got created (for Mexico)
i.e. 10,000 ft most of the way to Reno, then they said "ah f** it"
Do you agree there was no good 10,000 ft plan to Mexico once they said Reno?
I think the weird thing, is that 10,000 ft wasn't treated as an absolute limit for getting to Mexico. If it was, then SFO/LAX would have made more sense, regardless of the increased fuel.
We're talking about 1500 miles total roughly. So one fuel stop for a 727? (in that configuration) (two for my Piper)
So if you have one fuel stop, it doesn't matter if you waste a little time going the coast route. You have the fuel, right?
Or are you saying you can't make it from SFO to mexico in that configuration (727)?
I have to look at that.
I think your idea of "minimizing fuel burn" is wrong.
You have to take into account "where to stop" and altitudes along the way and available Victor airways in 1971.
You know that. You just haven't looked at that all the way to Mexico.
It's a bit of a waste of time to analyze though, because the data makes it obvious Cooper didn't care about anything past Eugene, OR.
(edit) Note one fuel stop is required for the 727 in that configuration no matter where you go? There is no non-stop possible? I guess I don't know. I'm going off of what they did that night.
Quote
Also, remember that all points in Mexico (even the western-most point) are EAST of SEA. Any flight that went west would just be wasting fuel. That leaves out SFO even though Rataczak thought is was just a small dogleg, but remember he hadn’t look at the Sectional at that time. He (and Scott) didn’t even know they had sectionals in the cockpit.
SFO is only important if you're equally serious about 10,000 ft, as well as conserving fuel.
If you're willing to go above 10,000 ft then there were even better options right off the bat?
So what happened, is that a mixed plan got created (for Mexico)
i.e. 10,000 ft most of the way to Reno, then they said "ah f** it"
Do you agree there was no good 10,000 ft plan to Mexico once they said Reno?
I think the weird thing, is that 10,000 ft wasn't treated as an absolute limit for getting to Mexico. If it was, then SFO/LAX would have made more sense, regardless of the increased fuel.
We're talking about 1500 miles total roughly. So one fuel stop for a 727? (in that configuration) (two for my Piper)
So if you have one fuel stop, it doesn't matter if you waste a little time going the coast route. You have the fuel, right?
Or are you saying you can't make it from SFO to mexico in that configuration (727)?
I have to look at that.
I think your idea of "minimizing fuel burn" is wrong.
You have to take into account "where to stop" and altitudes along the way and available Victor airways in 1971.
You know that. You just haven't looked at that all the way to Mexico.
It's a bit of a waste of time to analyze though, because the data makes it obvious Cooper didn't care about anything past Eugene, OR.
(edit) Note one fuel stop is required for the 727 in that configuration no matter where you go? There is no non-stop possible? I guess I don't know. I'm going off of what they did that night.
georger 247
Anyway V-23 was settled-on BEFORE takeoff.
Sluggo_Monster
Sluggo_Monster
And Reno was set in place of Sacremento once they
were in the air? Correct?
snowmman 3
Quote
Anyway V-23 was settled-on BEFORE takeoff.
Sluggo_Monster
And Reno was set in place of Sacremento once they
were in the air? Correct?
no.
It's good to review all this, because it seems inevitable that someone will point out that J5 and J65 go near Dougan Falls.
(I'm not sure if J65 was there in '71? It goes near Mt St. Helens)
In any case, Sluggo's timeline reminds us that the fueling discussion happened on the ground.
I just looked at it, and was surprised to see that Cooper referenced Phoenix in the debate. After playing with the flight path software a lot, saying Phoenix is a little bit sophisticated in terms of knowledge. Maybe it just shows knowledge of cities in the Southwest etc.
Hell, if he knows about Phoenix, why the hell are we all excited that he knows about Tacoma?
from Sluggo:
18:25 PST
Crew advised Cooper of range limitations.
18:25 PST
Cooper indicated he will accept their word and asked if they could make Phoenix, AZ
18:59 to 19:41 PST
Flt 305 was routed down V-23 by ATC based on terrain clearance at 10,000 feet.
Flt 305 was informed that “there will be people with you all the way down, so if you go above 10,000 feet let us know.” [This is reference to chase planes.]
18:25 PST
Flt-Ops MSP advises they are checking on Phoenix, says the flight might make it but it is questionable. Says range is about 2 hours. [ed. only 400 miles then? That would mean 2 fuel stops to get to Mexico...maybe 3 fuel stops? Have to check how far Reno was.]
19:22 PST
Flt 305 confirms that based on the range limitations Reno will be their first stop for fuel
Flt 305 was cleared down V-23 all the way to Sacramento, prior to takeoff.
19:22 PST
Flt 305 advises that fuel truck has left, air stairs have been removed, forward door is closed, and Cooper has agreed to let them take off with the aft door fully closed.
19:22 PST
Cooper says; “Get the plane on the road”.
19:25 PST
Flt 305 says SEA GRND advises that the Minimum Obstruction Clearance Altitude to Reno is 15,000 feet.
19:25 PST
Flt 305 suggest they go along the coast and then back on the route.
19:25 PST
Flt 305 is positioning for take off.
19:33 PST
Flt 305 takes off
D.B. Cooper?
He was just the first of five guys who hijacked commercial passenger jets in '71 and '72 and parachuted out of them with a money ransom.
He was not the first to parachute out of a 727; that had already been done.
All the other guys survived. At least one of them is alive and out of prison. Would be great to get him on the forum, but I would think he wants to keep his past buried.
For his feat, the other guys awarded him the first H-license. H-1.
Ever since then, real jumpers have been trying to deny the existence of H licenses, saying they're all whuffos.
Cooper also complained a lot about women trying to rob him of his essence. In fact, the similarity to Buck Turgidson first clued the FBI in to his connection to nuclear weapons. Which lead to the discovery of what really happened to Mt. St. Helens.
Note that the new flight path to the new DZ crosses Mt. St. Helens. There was a reason it had to be destroyed.
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