DB Cooper

[377 22]

Quote

While various media reports indicated that the man, a former Trappist monk, demanded that the Pope release the third secret of Fátima."

Didn't Gosset become some sort of offshoot Catholic priest after Norjack? A vast Salt Lake City/Vatican conspiracy seems to be implicated. We have just scratched the surface.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Tom Bohan existed. He isn't myth. Bohan made his contact with H through one Kenneth Hastings who was the Manager of the airport at Portland at the time ...
this resulted in H and Bohan having breakfast. This
is the account on NORJAK.

I'll accept that Bohan is real. I want to know how he independently measured winds aloft that night on approach.

There is a crude way to do it by flying a slow circle and noting changes in DME ground speed on different compass headings, but you wouldn't be flying lazy circles in that airspace that night on approach. Using that method you groundspeed is a minimum when headed directly into the wind and maximum when it is on your tail. That gives you the wind direction. The windspeed is calculated by comparing the groundspeed difference on those two flight headings.

This gives a very crude indication because DME groundpeed indications are only accurate when flying directly to or from a DME VORTAC station. DME groundspeed readings are useful in a relative sense but are not metrically accurate on headings that are not directly to or from the VORTAC station.

http://www.avweb.com/news/avionics/183230-1.html

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Here's a serious question no one answered for me.

The transcript indicates air speed at various times. Rataczak's air speed was changing over time, so we don't really know the air speed at all of the critical times.


We know the ground speed from measuring the legs at 1 minute intervals, assuming direct line between each point. Since it probably wasn't a direct line, the speed could be slightly more.

In any case: using the transcript's indicated air speed, and the ground speed, then the wind direction/speed, should be resolvable right?

If I was a pilot like Sluggo, I would have had an opinion about this early on. Am I missing something?

Wikipedia tells me:
"True airspeed (TAS) is the speed of an aircraft relative to the airmass in which it flies

Indicated airspeed will differ from true airspeed at air densities other than some reference density. Air density is affected by temperature, moisture content, and altitude."

Was the reported air speed, true air speed, or indicated?
(was it compensated appropriately by instruments?)


Can we guesstimate the wind because we know the ground speed and indicated air speed? (Which Bohan didn't know?)

[377 22]

Quote

I don't just have flight schedules. I have all of them. Why do I have all of them? So no one else can see them.

That got a chuckle out of me Snow.

All I have are some narrow dark clip on ties. The sad thing is that they are part of my current wardrobe and not Cooper paraphenalia. If I just wait long enough they will come back in style and people will stop snickering, right?

I am not totally ignorant of fashion. Just last month I retired my clear plastic pocket protectors and my slide rule holster.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Can we guesstimate the wind because we know the ground speed and indicated air speed? (Which Bohan didn't know?)

Might be able to do a rough cut, depends on course changes and seeing differences in ground and airspeed as plane heading changes. I think you need at least a 180 differnce in headings during the track to have enough info for a full windspeed solution. That would assure that the plane flew directly into or with the wind at some point which would give you a peak or dip in groundspeed.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

the wind is changing, so it's not going to be perfect.

But can you answer the question "Is the data consistent with steady 80 knot headwinds, or more consistent with the data we have from the FBI"

I've been looking at the winds aloft report from PDX at various times this year, and it would have to be quite a storm to have 80 knot winds at 10k feet, from what I can see. (the 80 knot report is from 14k anyhow so you can't use it directly)

The historical archives do have surface wind conditions at PDX that day. I'm not sure why we continue to debate that.

ALTHOUGH: we aren't even in agreement on what locale we need to discuss when we talk about wind.

There is weather data in the transcripts, especially around SeaTac? I think?

I think another angle on all this, is how Himmelsbach is in no way the big investigator he portrays himself as.

The real story of Cooper is how everyone; press, FBI, Cooperites like Georger, immediately fall into telling bullshit stories..i.e. everyone wants to say stuff that's not true.

Himmelsbach only followed up tips that were called in. He did no investigation. There is no data that says there was an investigation. (edit) By way of example, it's pretty clear the FBI didn't put together a list of jumpers from '60s-era jump clubs.

Even Ckret gets caught up in the bullshit angle. It's amazing he threw out his ADD engineer thing as almost fact, with no data.

[377 22]

I see Tom has not responded to my question about whether he shared my doubts about the reported facts of the money find. I can't draw any conclusions from that silence although I'd sure like to.

We are using Tena Bar as a datum and trying to backplot to a Cooper landing (or splatter) site. I continue to wonder if someone moved the survey marker.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

A compelling story is someone finding the Cooper money, and keeping it for themselves, and then trying to (badly) cover it up like you say 377.

Here's another example.

If we're to believe the Georger Denise Extension story, as uncovered by the Citizen's Breakfast Club, which has been infilitrated using cash dispersed from my $200k book advance (my agent says we could have gotten $500k now)....then

Why isn't the real story of the money find being reported today?

Jo knows. The conspiracy.

And the conspiracy is only known here. And by the UFOs that talk to me thru my toaster.

[georger 247]

I'll accept that Bohan is real. I want to know how he independently measured winds aloft that night on approach.


Reply> well then you are ahead of Continental itself
because they have no one who can confirm Bohan
ever existed! Continental is a black hole. a BLACK OPS
operation I guess because I have never even been
able to find much less talk to any corporate person
(in the flesh) who knew anything about the pilots
who flew for Continental, flight skeds, etc etc etc.,

I evidently have never found the right switch at
Continental that would open some door to their
flesh-n-blood history. Quite frankly these Texarcanians
are so paranoid they might as well be on Mars! I even
had one moron at Continental ask me: "are you FBI"?
I guess only the FBI gets to talk to Continental ... to
find a lost bag?

PDX Itl Airport is a whole different matter. Nice folks.
I confirmed Kenneth Hastings at PDX a long time ago.
Maybe have even found him - he may still be alive, but
Ive never tried to contact him beyond that. Didnt want
to bother him thinking I could work through Continental
and get to Bohan that way. But as per the above that
never worked out. So I just dropped it.

Sooner or later someone is going to have to ask H about Bohan and who knows what they will yield.

Or, it will never be solved. And there is no point in
guessing in the meantime.

I tend to believe Sluggo's response is extreme. Ralph
would never have put this in his book unless it happened. There was a flight above and behind 305
somewhere along V23. I see nothing unusual about
that on its face. There was a Tom Bohan flying for
Continental. There was a Ken Hastings at PDX who
knew H and Tom Bohan and was involved in 305
going by PDX on the evening of 11-24-71.

We just cant get any information about it and
Continental is a black hole that has no history ...
and probably no historian. Today Continental is at
the brink financially and cant even pay its janitor!

I would look for a collector flight skeds (on eBay?).
He might know and be able to confirm something.

Thats the best I can offer and it isnt anything.

[georger 247]

I'll accept that Bohan is real. I want to know how he independently measured winds aloft that night on approach.

Reply> There is a Boeing history of Continental. But
no contacts on the website.

[snowmman 3]

Georger,
it appears that, as the phrase goes, "you give good phone"
(that's actually a compliment, if you've ever talked to someone who has to be on the phone all day)

Can you call up Seattle ARTCC in Auburn? They have a web page.
Find out if anyone there ever talked to anyone who was working 11/24/71. I think there were at least 5 seats filled that night.

The name of the Chief there is in the transcripts (you can scroll back to the shortened pdf I posted). You can name drop the Chief's name (he's probably dead by now) to see if anyone worked with him.

377 wanted a name of someone who was in a radar seat that night.
There's a lead there.

[377 22]

Quote

And the conspiracy is only known here. And by the UFOs that talk to me thru my toaster.

Toaster? Baloney. Bet you have proprietary supercooled GAAS detectors of your own design and an antenna farm that would put Jodie Foster's "Contact" array to shame. You run galactic ATC for UFOs, admit it or the antenna photos will be posted forthwith.

As far as Bohan goes, it is such a minor claim (high winds, not "I saw Cooper exit and deploy") that it just doesn't raise my sceptical eyebrow. I see no motive for Ralph H to make it up and it isnt a preposterous weather claim.

I was on a jumpship once that enountered 65-70 kts of headwinds at 14,000 ft when it was only about 5-10 kts on the ground below. It was weird, the guys exiting before me fell directly straight down from the plane despite about 70kts of jumpship airspeed. The plane appeared to be motionless above the DZ. You can get big speed gradients with altitude.

The real question isnt whether Bohan existed, it is what were the winds that Cooper encountered on his jump. We have some data and can extrapolate the credible extremes in variations that he may have encountered. It is all so vague because the precise exit point is still a guess.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I'm thinking about what you're saying 377, but the real question is even more basic than winds and Bohan.

The real question is: why the heck do we pretend this question of winds is so important?

It's because somehow, we don't believe there's a flight path that's reliable?

So anyone, can say anything about winds, or where Scott thinks he was flying, or where Rataczak thinks he was flying, and it leads to new speculation about possible DZs.

The most basic question is: Is there a record of the flight path 305 was on, that's reliable?

If not, what is the minimal information we have on where 305 was? For instance, was it even close to V23? If not, how far off, theoretically, could it have been? Was Scott in danger of running into Mt. St. Helens? (use altitude of the landmark before South Africa dropped it's fifth nuclear weapon on it)

See, the wind doesn't matter if you think there's a reliable flight path. (unless you're calculating canopy drift)

It does matter also if you want to sit around and tell bullshit stories, like Himmelsbach.

(edit) Note that if the flight path map is unreliable, we can put Cooper in all sorts of places. Statistically the woods would be low probability, assuming uniform distribution over the likely areas.

[377 22]

Quote

(edit) Note that if the flight path map is unreliable, we can put Cooper in all sorts of places. Statistically the woods would be low probability, assuming uniform distribution over the likely areas.

If you just do a random drop into the possible areas what are the rough odds of reasonably non hazardous LZ terrain and proximity to exit paths such as roads? Maybe his landing and exit wasnt nearly the wilderness/survival ordeal we all picture.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

(edit) Note that if the flight path map is unreliable, we can put Cooper in all sorts of places. Statistically the woods would be low probability, assuming uniform distribution over the likely areas.

If you just do a random drop into the possible areas what are the rough odds of reasonably non hazardous LZ terrain and proximity to exit paths such as roads? Maybe his landing and exit wasnt nearly the wilderness/survival ordeal we all picture.

377

??
see this is why I have no clue how others process information here.

I can never understand why Georger keeps beating on Jo, other than the virtual wife beating might be enjoyable. (Duane story is not plausible. No reason to pursue)

And there is no way any reporter could go to the FBI and ask "Show me the data that says Cooper most likely jumped in the woods"

Because there is no data that says that.

Now he might have, since there are woods.

Do we even know if Cooper jumped before the Columbia? No.
Georger will now say yes we do, because he knows what Rataczak said, and Rataczak somehow pinpointed the jump location (Rataczak didn't).

Now with respect to the woods thing. Don't print the real story until 11/24/09. I'm still negotiating with Fox network, and need to pump up the value proposition.

[377 22]

All I am doing is trying to change a forum mindset that if Cooper landed alive it was in horrendously hostile conditions and survival though the night was doubtful. I was even starting to think that way.

Hell, he might have landed in a soft flat pasture very near a road and got lucky hitchiking with a story about a car stranded on a backroad nearby. It is far from impossible and appears to actually be at least as likely as the deep woods nightmare we so quickly embrace.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I do feel sorry for poor Bruce, and want to help give him something he can sell to his editor.

Hell, leading with a story that says the shoe story could be false (i.e. it's probably more likely Cooper jumped with ankle boots, than loafers, from what we know, unless he can squeeze out more records from Ckret)

The whole "loafer" business was part of the package that was put out there by Himmelsbach. (along with a lot of other "sure death" nonsense about landing and surface wind speeds).

Could Cooper have worn loafers? Maybe. But it's hard to see, from what we know, that you would say that was most likely.

It becomes real interesting if he indeed had ankle boots. It might show some thinking about the jump.

[snowmman 3]

(repost: mistakenly overwrote)

I've always been a big newspaper reader.
I love the idea of getting it every morning. Walking out to pick it up to read with coffee was a morning ritual forever.

Just last week, as part of budget-tightening measures here, I cancelled my local newspaper subscription. It wasn't necessary. I felt bad, because I do like supporting writers. I like good writing. I like seeing ideas I would never think of. I like the public record. (it's amazing the detail about the past now we can get by googling newspaper scans)

And print is good. Look how Google is focused on their book stuff. It's because editted copy is way more valuable than most web tripe.

BUT: the problem is, the newspapers are trying to sell a bogus story too. They claim to be investigative journalists. But they're not. Just tabloid crapola now.

And it's really sad to see how the front pages of all the major web news sites, have drifted towards "news of the weird" type leads....when they first started, there appeared to be an attempt to stay away from the "weird stories".

But the weird headlines everything now. (cnn, nbcnews, abcnews, etc).

Oh well. That's who we are.

People look down their nose at youtube. It will be really funny when youtube has more good data than TV or newspapers.
Not far away!

(edit) Oh 377! I wasn't disagreeing with you or saying anything negative. I was just saying, I thought we were past that, and that everyone already shared that view. See you're agreeing, we really don't have any idea what we all think! I'm in agreement with you on that. That was my point....Sorry!

[377 22]

Snow,

Reconsider your cancellation. Newspapers these days will bend over backwards to keep subscribers. They even have "retention specials" that they cannot offer you until you say "cancel".

Print newspapers have been as valuable a resource as the FBI in bringing public corruption to light. The new breed of CNN and Internet journalists just do not pound the pavement. They just email, blog and Google search. They just sort and parse rumors.

Newspapers do appear doomed, but we can help them hold on long enough to morph into something that can survive. That help is a subscription.

There is a big difference between finding news at its source and finding news on the Internet. One is journalism, the other is parasitic regurgitation and is the friend of corruption. Nobody will breathe a bigger sigh of relief than corrupt public officials when the last newspaper shuts down.

I agree with you on the sensationalism and weirdness creeping into the headlines of Internet news sites. That Chimp mauling is still getting front page as is Jennifer's thoughts about Brad

Maybe someday the Internet journalists will rediscover what the hard drinking grizzled print reporters knew about finding deeply hidden newsworthy stories. It probably wont happen unless you take their Internet access away and how likely is that?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Another good angle would be how Ckret started this hoax at the tv stations (and they went for it) of a Citizen's Investigation Group.

We know it's a secret club. Unclear if there's a membership list (if there is, publish it). There are rumors of CIA funding.

There are rumors that all of it's activities are staged, to flush out new tips for Cooper. It's unclear though.

Since Nov of last year, Ckret disappeared. There are rumors of suicide, although there are recent news articles where he is still solving bank robberies. Apparently no physical contact with Ckret, just email, so even that could be part of the coverup around his death.

What makes me suspicious is that the most recent mention of him is in a IssauquahPress.com web page. That is too coincidental. Why Issaquah?

http://www.issaquahpress.com/2009/03/02/robbery-suspect-arrested/

(edit) 377: you're right. The voice of reason as always. I'm just bitching. This is a web forum after all!

(edit) Worse yet, it's a skydivers' web forum, and I've never seen a deployed parachute, except on youtube.

[377 22]

Quote

I've never seen a deployed parachute, except on youtube.

That handicap can be easily remedied. Just say the word when the weather gets warmer.

I used to drive an hour or more each way to freeze on winter jumps. Now I just drive 13 minutes and fly in a warm tunnel until summer arrives. I have really turned into a weather wimp. No more frozen fingers or muddy gear.

Here's the plan: No tandem, waste of money. A few tunnel sessions (my treat, I have some prepaid block time, offer stands for Ckret too) until you fly stable, then straight to AFF where you will make a great first jump. After that you can retire from skydiving if you wish, but no more whuffo status.

If you go all the way to your A license and Perris gets past the stupid FAA hassles on their DC 9 engines, then a jet jump is in your future.

Perris's DC 9 has an engine that is way under the max hours allowed before overhaul, but is timed out on chronological age. OH is hundreds of thousands of dollars, so hopefully common sense will prevail and the FAA will reconsider. The FAA is not known for such logic or common sense.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

SNOW, let me get your last quote straight.

the FBI started the CIG funded by the CIA because of the APB on DBC over him being MIA from all legitimate evidence? I understand OK i am better now! HA!

[snowmman 3]

Quote

SNOW, let me get your last quote straight.

the FBI started the CIG funded by the CIA because of the APB on DBC over him being MIA from all legitimate evidence? I understand OK i am better now! HA!

Okay I'll give you the full background. And this is all true.

One time I took a Greyhound bus from Seattle to CA. I had a plane ticket, but wanted to leave early, but couldn't get a new reservation. I figured, how long could a bus take? It took forever, stopping at every little depot along the way.

I ended up sitting next to a Mike Tyson lookalike. He had recently been thrown out of the Army (dishonorable discharge) from a tank division in Korea. He didn't want to talk much. Was pissed at the world. The Army just gave him a bus ticket back from whatever Fort in WA, to back home, in the South. He was going to be on the bus forever. Somehow I ended up sitting next to him.

Eventually we get to Portland, after seeing every small hole-in-the-wall town in between, and we miss our connection, so we're all milling around the station. It's night, and some of us mill over to a bar nearby. That's when this one guy confides he's going down to Texas to "disappear" someone.

We eventually head back to the bus depot, where there's no buses for the night. They're starting to hand out hotel rooms, and the Texas guy is hitting on a woman with two small kids. He's successful, surprisingly and heads off (both of them) with smiles.

Me and my new Army bud (I feel like I have to keep him out of trouble) head out on the streets to keep busy. We're roaming downtown Portland and some random guy wants to sell drugs. Mike Tyson's ears perk up and he's bellowing for a deal and I'm trying to get him to shut up and get out of there, cause it's obviously bad news.

So we somehow drift from Old Portland over a bridge (river maybe the Williamette) and end up in a Denny's on the other side. And we're sitting there, and there's a bunch of suburban white kids at the other table. And Mike starts giving them the maddog glare. And one kid actually stands up like he's going to give some shit...And I'm thinking, the kid is thinking Portland dude, when he should be thinking "guy who just got kicked out of a tank division in Korea, on an endless bus ride back to the South, looking for some ass to kick"

And on the way back to the bus station, looking over the rail of the bridge, what do you think I saw in the river?

And that's what happened.

[377 22]

Snow,

You could write for This American Life on NPR. You definitely have the knack.

I keep thinking about the chute. It has to be out there somewhere. It made no sense to pack it out. Once Cooper successfully exited the LZ there would be no need to come back for it, who cares if it is discovered?

I realize this post adds nothing new, but I just cannot get that Cooper main chute out of my mind. If they could find a tiny door placard how could a rig be so hard? I don't even see any reason Cooper would have buried it very carefully, just enough to avoid air detection while he was still in the area exiting.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

There was nothing in the river.

But I always wanted to tell that story, because I remember the seedy Old Portland, the long walk over the bridge, the darkness and dampness, and the pissed off dude. It comes to mind when I think of Cooper. I actually thought maybe I had walked across to Vancouver, but looking on a map, it wasn't.

I always wondered how full of shit that guy going to Texas was. Did someone really get dead in Texas. Doubt it. But he may have gotten laid that night.

Okay. real life. Just went to the mailbox, and my Real McCoy book is there.

The book looks good. Writing not bad, although with McCoy they had a real story to tell (Cooper part is probably weak)..Himmelsbach had no where near as much interesting stuff.

I've attached photos from the book that show the McCoy DZ, which people here should like.

There is a photo of McCoy in his paratrooper gear that I've not seen before.

There is actually a photo of McCoy in his coffin at the funeral. Kind of macabre.

On page 33, there's something about Cooper's note. I think it might be correct. They have some other details about the note and Cooper's demands that seem correct, and they were FBI agents.

They say

"he showed a bomb to Stewardess Florence Schaffner and told her to read what was typed on the outside of a white 5x7 envelope"

Now if that is true, it is different than the hand-printed felt pen note rumors.

Ckret never gave us details about the note.

A 5x7 envelope is an odd size. It's like a birthday card size, isn't it.

Photos attached of McCoy's DZ.
I like them because it gives you a sense of reality of these jump hijackings, rather than the BS feel we always have. There were 4 other real DZs in 1972.

I've only thumbed the book so far.

Hmm. there are two other things on page 34-35 that seem like myth. They say Cooper had Tina take up a typed federal aviation flight-plan form to the cockpit. And they say Cooper used the word "interphone".

Both of those are false, if I remember correctly, from what Ckret said.

There is some detail of McCoy and the stairs and the jump, apparently from an interview? I'll read that and post anything interesting.

There's an interesting first person account from McCoy.