DB Cooper

[BigSky 2]

If you need help finding water density from Columbia/Washougal Rivers let me know. I would be more than happy to drive out there and take some samples.

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

[snowmman 3]

(edit: okay, as noted, not all bills were L. Still, a nice photo, so I'll leave the post)

Original caption: The badly decomposed $20 dollar bills were shown to newsmen after check of their serial numbers showed that they were identical to the bills given to hijacker D.B. Cooper on November 24, 1971. The money was found by Brian Ingram, 8, who was searching for firewood while on a family outing with his parents, Mr. and Mrs. Harold Dwayne Ingram of Vancouver, Washington. The money was found on the north shore of the Columbia River, partially buried in the sand.)

I had thought all the bills given to Cooper were L bills.
(Edit: not. I've been clearified. Thank you)

I got a nice picture from the nymag article at
http://nymag.com/news/features/39617/
that had a better angled view of the money I'd not seen before. It's better for judging decay I think than the straight on views.

attached also.

In any case, look at the top bill in the 2nd stack back from the foreground. It's not an L bill.


Are we saying that Cooper got something other than L bills? (yes)

I also read an article that says Ingrams family took the money back home and dried it in their kitchen before they realized the import and notified FBI.

So FBI didn't see the bills when they were in bundles. That's all hearsay info from Ingrams? I'm thinking the only one that saw rubber bands were Ingrams.

Interestingly the evidence was bills and bands (even if they crumbled) But I don't think any rubber band evidence was photographed or kept? it's all witness testimony on the rubber bands?

here's the decode for Federal Reserve District Seals

A: Boston
B: New York
C: Philadelphia
D: Cleveland
E: Richmond
F: Atlanta
G: Chicago
H: St. Louis
I: Minneapolis
J: Kansas City
K: Dallas
L: San Francisco

[snowmman 3]

Okay I'm going to get flamed, but I want more data to prove me wrong.

I think the 8 year old kid is the only one who says the rubber bands turned to dust when touched, and the only one who thought he saw rubber bands. He may have been reacting to what he thought agents wanted him to say, also.

Think about it: that's B.S. regardless of age, a decomposing rubber band doesn't "turn to dust" when you touch it..it's either hard little pieces or sticky and gummy, if it's in a state where it's going to stay around some bills...it's not going to go from a "almost holding the stack state" to "dust when you touch it"....

Has anyone reproduced a "turn to dust" decomposition? I don't think so.

I'm not even sure the parents saw the rubber bands.
The FBI I think definitely didn't if they didn't see the stacks till the next day after drying in the kitchen.

Are we relying on the testimony of the 8 year old Brian Ingram about decomposing rubber bands?

Since so much of the money deposit theories depends on the rubber bands, if there really were no rubber bands, then we need to rethink?

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Thank you!

Do you happen to have a digital scale that measures grams or ounces? Guessing no (not everyone has them)... still, you may help solve the debate.

What we'd need to do is weigh a fixed volume of water and compare it to the same volume of tap water. Of course, you have to account for the container itself (which would be weighed before the test).

My guess is, the two would be pretty much equal.

Pool water actually has a higher TDS than tap water (thus the $$ would float better).

Temperature can have an affect, but seriously, we're talking about a fairly narrow temp range that wouldn't really have an impact one way or the other. Temp affects the viscosity of the water which of course affects buoyancy... it also affects things like pH (on a very small scale mind you).

I know this stuff from, like I said, spent my whole life around the water... even had CPO and AFO certs.

[snowmman 3]

That b/w photo is available from corbis a professional
photo distribution service. I'm assuming it's correct
historical.

I searched for Ingram photos on their site (you can buy all their archived photos. "ingram bills" used
at
http://pro.corbis.com/search/searchFrame.aspx

the photo of the bills comes up and they also have a nice photo of FBI agents digging by the river I'd not seen before. (attached)

I also attached a photo of Brian Ingram demonstrating at the time how he smoothed the sand with his hand (that description of the photo is from the corbis site)

[BigSky 2]

Well actually I know right were I can get a scale of that nature. I also can get my hands on a digital TDS meter if you want to know TDS.

I work in the spa business so I understand a bit about water and testing of water.

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

[snowmman 3]

from corbis site.
Thought it was good to get a feel for what kind of people the parents were, in terms of witnesses. (subjective data can be good data sometimes)

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Not all the bills were L, only most of them.

There were some F (Atlanta) as well. The entire list is in your Tosaw's book.

Pictures of the dig are absolutely significant. In all these pictures that people keep posting (where are they coming from??) they're digging not too far from the water's edge.

Just looking at that photo you posted, I can easily see how money could get washed up several feet from the edge.

First, the water height does flucuate.

Second, barges go through that area en route to Portland via the Williamette. All it takes is for a big barge to come by to create a sizable wake.

Less than a mile south of that point, I was camping once with my friend. A yacht came by and literally sunk my friend's boat! No kidding, the wake came over the sides of the boat and sunk it, we had to bail water.

All it takes is for one of these events to happen with $$ near the water's edge... and then it's on the sand where wind can move it further or cover it with sand.

[snowmman 3]

from corbis.
Historical photo from 1980

interestingly gives us the money location (which we already knew but nice to see the picture in a historical context..I guess they released info to press at the time)

Original caption: Vancouver, Washington: Map spots the area where some several thousand dollars of the D.B. Cooper hijack was found 2/10/80 by Brian Ingram, 8, while on a family outing. The money was badly decomposed and examination revealed that the serial numbers were identical to those given to the hijacker on Nov. 24, 1971. The exact location of the find was 12112 NW Lower River Road, Vancouver, Washington.

[Orange1 0]

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There were some F (Atlanta) as well. The entire list is in your Tosaw's book.

Are these digs really necessary or justified? You and Jo may have an issue with whether this is Tosaw or not, until you can prove it, it just irritates (at least some of) the rest of us. Some of us don't actually have agendas, hidden or otherwise, outside of pure interest in the case.

I for one don't give a toss if it's Tosaw or not.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

They are from the corbis professional news photo distribution site. They have their archive available for sale. You can search it. I'm assuming the accuracy chain is good.

I have another photo of the dig (attached) from that waymarking site. Unknown source but it seems correct. Maybe can judge distance from water with that picture too.

What I'm wondering about is the people doing the excavation. They look like students? I wonder if they were students of the professor. They don't look like "fbi agents". I'm wondering about the quality of the evidence search.


***
Pictures of the dig are absolutely significant. In all these pictures that people keep posting (where are they coming from??) they're digging not too far from the water's edge.

Just looking at that photo you posted, I can easily see how money could get washed up several feet from the edge.
***

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I'm looking for something to stand out, but nothing does.

It appears to be consistent with washing up or being placed. I was hoping to see something that would sway it one way or the other.

We've debated this before, but not too much depth... the decomp of the bills.

See attached from same Corbis site.

Any ideas on the decomp? Moisture levels, containment/no containment? How much of this decomp do you think happened while on the beach?

Personally, I think the brittleness would happen on the beach and maybe some decomp (while under sand), but that a bulk of this decomp happened elsewhere... but that's my opinion.

Orange, my comments about Tosaw are in jest... he wouldn't ask about serial numbers if he was Tosaw, but if he is, he should come clean so we all know. That's all. I don't think he is, I just think it's funny.

[snowmman 3]

just posting this because it was there.
I know this has been dismissed, but here's the photo anyhow.

December 18, 1982

Original caption: Portland, Oregon: Blake Payne stands in stern of his charter boat late December 18th, and holds up what he thinks is a piece of "D.B. Cooper's" parachute. Payne has been dragging the bottom of the Columbia River for the past month and a half, looking for evidence that "Cooper," did land in the Columbia after parachuting from hijacked airliner. On the stern is "rake," Payne designed to drag the bottom of the river.

[snowmman 3]

safe:
one thing strikes me. shouldn't we have be able to see something as a result of the rubber bands on the bills...i.e. if they were holding the stacks together, than they would act as a slight protector to the paper underneath...more than the exposed paper.

Also, if they were holding the stack together the paper under them would compress differently? water expansion effect would differ? causing dents or something in the edges. I'm just guessing out loud.

Also, the chemicals in the rubber might interact with the paper, especially during decomposition.

I don't know if there are missing bills in the photo, or if they were restacked after drying...but I'm struck by how there's no evidence to analyze that shows rubber bands existed. It seems to be just testimony. I'm not sure of boy or boy plus parents or what.


***
Any ideas on the decomp? Moisture levels, containment/no containment? How much of this decomp do you think happened while on the beach?

Personally, I think the brittleness would happen on the beach and maybe some decomp (while under sand), but that a bulk of this decomp happened elsewhere... but that's my opinion.

***

[TrophyHusband 0]

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Here is the question I would want to verify regarding the money, especially since I don't live in the area and I don't know how the Columbia is operated.

The Columbia is a dammed river, to put it mildly. The money appears to have been found in an area that is quite high and dry. The dredging operation created a layer in 1974 and the money is 18+ inches above that layer, just a few years later. That is a lot of bank movement for a dammed river. Is the Columbia allowed to be that wild? Especially since it runs through an urban area just a stones throw upriver.

Somebody who lives in the area and knows the river should be able to answer that question quite easily.

the columbia level is affected by the tide quite a ways up river. a quick search turned up a tide table for as far up as the willamette river. i'm not sure how much fluctuation there is where the money was found, but in longview where i grew up it is several feet.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[snowmman 3]

The money was found soaking wet.

A bundle would stick together, as if it was held by something, until you dried it out. It could create an illusion, especially to a kid.

We need Ckret to get us the transcripts of all rubber band testimony. There's just more data we need.

It would be amazing to go off on a convoluted theory, all based on rubber bands that we don't have evidence of.

It'd be worse than the magic bullet theory. :)

[quade 4]

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We need Ckret to get us the transcripts of all rubber band testimony. There's just more data we need.

You may have the words "need" and "want" confused.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

My chipper/shredder has about 32 steel flails arranged around an axle. I'm not sure of the rpm.

We've hypothesized that a bladed dredge would "shred"
wet stacks of money.

I'm thinking if I remove the grate from the shredder, that the stack of bills might pass thru, getting pushed by the flails, some percentage of the time...and not get shredded.

This would be a good youtube experiment.

Does it shred?

I dunno. I have a lot of experience dropping wood and stuff in there..Something that's flexible, about the size of a stack of bills, maybe covered with some sand for protection, could go right thru.

Anyone who says they know, well I dunno why you would.

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

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Not all the bills were L, only most of them.

There were some F (Atlanta) as well. The entire list is in your Tosaw's book.

Look at the picture of one of the bills up for sale on the Heritage site. Serial number C13874652A

C= Philadelphia

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[377 22]

I got a tour of an Army Corps of Engineers dredge once. It was basically a ship with a HUGE centrifugal water pump, a suction hose and a discharge hose. Pretty large objects can make it through these types of pumps without jamming which is why centrifugal (rather than gear or flexible impeller pumps) are used in so called "trash pumps".

The ride through the system would be violent and highly abrasive if sand were being dredged.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Guru312 0]

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I'm more interested in the float time of the bag because it will be quicker to determine and will provide immediate parameters.

You keep focusing on "float time" for reasons that I don't understand.

The bag needs to stay together as it protects the money inside as it bangs along the bottom. It has years to travel to some point "relatively" close to the Ingram point.

I'm really at a loss as to why the bag needs to float.

Welcome back, Ckret, your presence is appreciated.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I can't speak to the mechanics of the dredge. I only know they did a dredge in 74 and that the layer in the sand was found. In the photo you can see him with his finger where the layer is (and the layer is clearly visible). There's a good 18 inches of regular sand that had accumulated over 6 years on top of it.

I would think if there had been other dredge operations, the FBI would have looked into it. That's my whole spiel regarding the dredge. Ckret has said the dredge would chop up the money, I don't know anything about that (outside my expertise).

Even if you thought it was dredged, it picked up 3 stacks off the bottom (they're all together down there?) and then coughs them all up at the same point on land? Then, they're not stained from river silt.

If you believe Ingram, then the rubber bands "crumbled" to the touch (not turn to dust). If you buy into my idea of the money decomposing before arriving on the beach, then what allows the rubber bands to stay intact for 7+ yrs while the bills themselves get moldy?

There's some serious kick-ass posts on here today. Thank you all... will PM some of you later tonight.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I'm really at a loss as to why the bag needs to float.

If it doesn't float, then it would have been found at the bottom of the river, not in the river bank.

The float can also eliminate LaCamas Lake as viable (although it might be ruled out regardless).

[377 22]

From what I have seen of kelp and other "stuff" that goes through dredges and ends up in what the dredgers call spoils (the output), I do not think the found money went through a dredge pump, it's just waaaay too "intact". Kelp (an aquatic plant) gets mangled and cut, but not totally macerated or shredded.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Hi safe.
Okay 18" of sand over the clay layer. Deduction is that it came from 6 years of 3"/year sand after the dredge.

For that deduction to hold, we should be willing to go to the money location today, and dig and find the same clay layer. There should be 28 years * 3"/year = 84" of sand there over the clay layer

Obviously there won't be. The sand comes and goes
sometimes it adds, sometimes it erodes.

It'd be good if someone went and did the dig and told us. Then we'd have some more data to play with.

But: my point...the 18" can't be translated to any number of years? Right?

theoretically for all we know 18" could come and go every year at that location. It's at the inside of a turn in the river. The water will slow down there and drop sediment right? I dunno.

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I can't speak to the mechanics of the dredge. I only know they did a dredge in 74 and that the layer in the sand was found. In the photo you can see him with his finger where the layer is (and the layer is clearly visible). There's a good 18 inches of regular sand that had accumulated over 6 years on top of it.

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