DB Cooper

[377 22]

Hey Hangdiver,

I too saw my first skydiving in Calistoga CA. I was about 12 years old. It was astounding to me, literally the coolest thing in the universe. I counted the days (about 2200) until I turned 18 and could start S/L training with Perry Stevens in Oakland.

Glad to see another jumper who got Calistoga fever.

I have a feeling your Dad wasn't the only possible Cooper the FBI overlooked. 54 in 1971 is a bit old for Cooper, but guys that age who are in good shape can look younger to witnesses.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

Quote

georger brought up Gen-X.

I am always up for understanding the passions and drives of the next generation. Every generation is different. Responds to different times. Every older generation, whether they like or not, rides the back of the next generation.

Sure it's a great idea, that somehow you can kick ass while you're young, and bank away enough of something, so you can give the middle finger to the next generation, and say "You guys don't know how it was done".

But that's never true.

So Gen X-Y-Z? Hats off to you! See what you can do. The best thing us older folks can do is try to smooth the path a little, whether we think they deserve it or not. There's no other workable alternative. So suck it up!

No, you brought up Gen-X, by your actions/words.
I merely put a label on what I saw/read happening.

But the rest of your comments/sentiments, are on right on the money and I agree completely. Too
bad it couldnt have come sooner.

[georger 247]

But heck, look at Larr Carr, and the whole team of Citizen Sleuths on TV recently with their 15 minutes. They've contributed zero to the discussion so far. Now maybe they will, maybe they won't. Who knows.

Reply:

The citizen sleuths didnt request tv time. Lets be
clear about this -

Some of the sleuths strictly forbid it as a condition
of their being in the discussion at all!

The sleuths have contrubuted to "the discussion".
You assume this forum is "the discussion", but
this forum is only one discussion. There are other
discussions, in other places, at other times, ....

just to clear up some of your misunderstandings -

[georger 247]

Quote

This thread is getting really weird. Jo almost gets banned for calling someone "a Jo" and the poster that actually calls someone an "asshole" gets a free pass.

I enjoy reading the "new" info about Cooper but it seems most of the stuff is re-hashed myths or half-truths that have been kicked around so many times they just seem new.

My dad was a paratrooper in WW ll, he was 54 in 1971. I am wondering if the FBI ever profiled WW ll vets. My dad was a carpenter and in very good shape in 71'. I'm pretty sure he wasn't Cooper but fit Cooper's description in a general way. He was 6' tall with an olive tan, dark brown receding hair, 180lbs and knew how to put on a parachute. He took me to see the first skydivers I ever saw in Calistoga, Ca. I really never thought about a WW ll vet being Cooper until I realized someone with a similar background and age of my father could have done the hijack.

For those of you that are easily confused, don't jump to conclusions about me thinking my dad was Cooper, that's not my point. My point is that Cooper could have been a former WW ll paratrooper. Just a theory I haven't heard.

Carry on...

Thats kind of what I think too, and have said so before. If the age range is accurate then his
training would overlap with those who trained for
WWII vs Korea vs Vietnam...

But Jo & Snow steared us off into smoke jumpers
and Mormons and sky diving clubs.

I see Cooper as an ordinary man driven to extra-
ordinary acts, not confident, and off his game that
he might have been better at when younger, and
trained during the period leading up to WWII.

I just dont have the force of will to direct things here that Jo/Snow/377/Sluggo have. So mine (ours)
is the minority view.

Cooper was surely a Mormon smokejumper with
extensive serious criminal history whow rapped
$100m bills around champaign bottles and gave them to women in airports ... and had a cold fusion
reactor built from a back brace and a battery, in his basement while he hob-knobbed with his mafia buddies while wining and dinning as the FBi wore
its shoe leather off looking for a transvestites in
Virginia coal mines?

[georger 247]

Quote

georger said
"Has Jo ever considered her threats on the Internet
can be reported to the Authorities, as well as any threats she has issued via email ?

Reply: ----------------------------------------

what ever happened to Jo's hotel clerk who gave
his deposition to the FBI ?

That was a big story.

• Quote

[1969912 0]

Quote

But heck, look at Larr Carr, and the whole team of Citizen Sleuths on TV recently with their 15 minutes. They've contributed zero to the discussion so far. Now maybe they will, maybe they won't. Who knows.

Reply:

The citizen sleuths didnt request tv time. Lets be
clear about this -

Some of the sleuths strictly forbid it as a condition
of their being in the discussion at all!

The sleuths have contrubuted to "the discussion".
You assume this forum is "the discussion", but
this forum is only one discussion. There are other
discussions, in other places, at other times, ....

just to clear up some of your misunderstandings -

Blazing hot discussions

(edit to add) That's why Georger doesn't post here anymore.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[skyjack71 0]

I PM ed Shelly only once - and several wks ago I did PM Jerry.

Shelly if you would like to send ME copies of those tapes - I would be glad to listen to them, but NOT everything is public nor was I informed I was being recorded - until 2003 the law in Fla was explicit in that respect. I have nothing to hide - but since I was unaware I was being recorded it is possible I discussed information of a private nature.

I did not make contact with Himmelsbach until late fall of 1996. I was advised early on to keep a log of every contact - thus my log books and phone bills are available. Most of the calls were on my nickel.

This forum knows the story about what Duane told me in the hospital the day he decided to cease diaylsis and that on the second day under the influence of medication told the story about the bucket.

If I was looking for fame - I could have signed book deals and movie deals a LONG time ago. I chose to have proof and to take the hard road of discovery - because I wanted to know the truth.

Not one moment was I prepared to experience what I have endured - I never dreamt it would be this hard or this heart breaking. I guess my world has always been some what sheltered - I was totally unaware of how cruel, malicious and devious the world has become.

Considering the economics of America and the toll all of the above has taken on my life - the truth doesn't seem very important anymore...I find it hard to abandon the very being of my existence. My standards and my values have always been high, but I should know at my age that not everyone has those same values.

I do not understand this world anymore. I will do one last thing before I end this - somehow I will go to Seattle and the FBI needs to sit down with me and show me these things they made available to the "team" such as Duane's records and interivews they conducted.

This business of saying Duane was with family on Thanksgving of 1971 - I have tapes and letters stating differently and who is Margaret. If the FBI has had this all of these yrs and did not verify it - this is a sad state of affairs.

To all you guys, even "my baboon" Thank You. I know I said I was not going to post, but I could not just put it down on such a negative note.

The most interesting thing about it was - his reactions on the end of the tape - when shown some photos of Cooper and Duane. Something I didn't expect - it was just out of the blue. I have never met this man in person.

No, the video will not be made available to the public - this is a private individual, but since the FBI did not see it worth their while to personally interview him - some one else did.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I just dont have the force of will to direct things here that Jo/Snow/377/Sluggo have. So mine (ours) is the minority view.

No force of will needed. If there's a question there about what I think/believe, I actually I have no opinion.

Did I raise issues that I thought were worth exploring? Yes.

If I shouted down some other viewpoints, I apologize.
Let's explore them now, then.

(edit) Hey georger, I can't help it.
You can't really be claiming lack of "force of will". Your posts don't show that.

Now, I can understand that you can't be bothered. But call a spade a spade. Don't put it on us.

[snowmman 3]

I can't believe I'm asking a Duane question, especially when Jo is settling down, but searched the thread and couldn't find anything.

Jo:
Q. Did Duane got to reform school in California when he was a kid?

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

I just dont have the force of will to direct things here that Jo/Snow/377/Sluggo have. So mine (ours) is the minority view.

No force of will needed. If there's a question there about what I think/believe, I actually I have no opinion.

Did I raise issues that I thought were worth exploring? Yes.

If I shouted down some other viewpoints, I apologize.
Let's explore them now, then.

(edit) Hey georger, I can't help it.
You can't really be claiming lack of "force of will". Your posts don't show that.

Now, I can understand that you can't be bothered. But call a spade a spade. Don't put it on us.

I did think your post on March 21 about radar
and FDRs was interesting ...

[skyjack71 0]

Georger, back up to my last post -I left you a little gift as an after thought. Oh what the heck - I'll just paste it below.

P.S. Georger - his reactions on the end of the tape - when shown some photos of Cooper and Duane. Something I didn't expect - it was just out of the blue. I have never met this man in person.

No, the video will not be made available to the public - this is a private individual, but since the FBI did not see it worth their while to personally interview him - some one else did...

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 247]

Quote

Georger, back up to my last post -I left you a little gift as an after thought. Oh what the heck - I'll just paste it below.

P.S. Georger - his reactions on the end of the tape - when shown some photos of Cooper and Duane. Something I didn't expect - it was just out of the blue. I have never met this man in person.

No, the video will not be made available to the public - this is a private individual, but since the FBI did not see it worth their while to personally interview him - some one else did...

Ok Jo, thanks.

Georger

[Orange1 0]

Quote

My point is that Cooper could have been a former WW ll paratrooper. Just a theory I haven't heard.

Then you haven't read all the posts Like 377 said maybe a bit old, but WW2 vets were discussed as options. Somewhere... a ways back...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Georger wrote:

Quote

I see Cooper as an ordinary man driven to extra-
ordinary acts, not confident, and off his game that
he might have been better at when younger

Gee Georger... that pretty much describes every guy over 40 who still skydives.

I liked your back brace dry cell cold fusion reactor joke. Glad to see your sense of humor come out now and then.

Didn't the cold fusion fiasco actually start in Salt Lake City?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Jo said
"No, the video will not be made available to the public - this is a private individual, but since the FBI did not see it worth their while to personally interview him - some one else did..."


Jo: I think you're being unfair here.
Carr said the Portland office took his statement. Right? Isn't that about all that could be expected?
Were you expecting an interrogation?
Was there an interrogation on the tape? or just a statement?

I'm not trying to provoke, just that I thought you're being a little unfair with the FBI here.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

My point is that Cooper could have been a former WW ll paratrooper. Just a theory I haven't heard.

Then you haven't read all the posts Like 377 said maybe a bit old, but WW2 vets were discussed as options. Somewhere... a ways back...

I think we could explore the WWII thing more, because I think it's not necessary to jump into "paratrooper"

Cooper could have been
-WWII but not deployed
-deployed somewhere as non-paratrooper
-deployed somewhere as paratrooper

If paratrooper, it would have been static line like most military up to even vietnam.

I'm guessing that all georger is suggesting is that the age suggests some WWII involvement.

i.e if Cooper was 45-50, then in 1945 (26 years earlier) he was 19-24, so he would likely have been drafted or more likely enlisted.

If he was on the low side of the age, he may have still been in training but never deployed. (WWII ended 9/45)...i.e. if Cooper was 45, then in 44 he would have been 18. May never have been deployed.

So there's a lot of possibilities. Minimally I was wondering why georger thought paratrooper. Because that gave him skills or the idea or ??? (it would be reaching back 26 years for skills?)

(edit) were there wwII air force loadmasters? Ckret didn't say what era loadmaster he was looking for. Is he looking for a WWII loadmaster?

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo said
"No, the video will not be made available to the public - this is a private individual, but since the FBI did not see it worth their while to personally interview him - some one else did..."

Snow said
Jo: I think you're being unfair here.
Carr said the Portland office took his statement. Right? Isn't that about all that could be expected?
Were you expecting an interrogation?

It had nothing to do with me being unfair.

The Night Cllerk walks into Portland FBI office and hands them a notarized statement around Oct of 2008 - since Carr had not contacted him after I told the FBI who he was and how to contact him in 2001.

The night clerik was in the states for major surgery and it would be several wks before Carr contacted him by phone - I expect out of courtesy because the gentleman had major surgery. The conversation was short and no actual interview took place.

Since the forum and others had question if there really was a night clerk and because Agent Carr nor anyone else in the FBI never validated that this person did exist...certain individuals took it upon themselves to be sure the FBI did not let another witness expire without his testimony being taped. Please note - the night clerk is doing well and looks good - and due to the economy he is not going back to China anytime soon. All the more reason to keep his idenity out of the media - (It could jeopardize his employment opportunities in the states and I do not want him to run that risk) as I would feel responsible.

Questions were ask - interrogation no. Over the past 8 yrs his statement like everyone elses evolved with exposure to the media information available - this video should have been done as soon as the FBI became aware of his claim in 2001 after reading an article in the Oregonian and contacting me thru Margie Boule.

I believe the FBI was given ample time ( 8yrs) to contact this person and obtain his statement. I do not therefore believe I am being unfair with the FBI - unfortunately Carr has to bear the brunt of mistakes made before he was assigned the case. Carr also ignored this witness even after he was brought to Carr's attention by me in at least 2 phone conversations and on this forum.

Note this is NOT about Weber, but a witness who claims to have seen a man who looked like the Composite at a hotel near the airport gate. The name John Collins and the pictures of Duane Weber - were cause for him to contact me in 2001. The FBI was notified of his existence, contact information and claim in 2001.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Didn't the cold fusion fiasco actually start in Salt Lake City?

377

In terms of weird Mormon things.

Gossett was in Ogden, Utah at a time. But I guess he was never Mormon before his Catholic priest thing? Not sure.

I noticed there were more Gossett photos at Coast to Coast that I hadn't seen before. Attaching.

1) Sgt. Bill Gossett at this desk in Saigon, Vietnam on Sept. 1967.

2) Sgt. Bill Gossett receiving a military award in 1971.

3) Bill Gossett, wife Theresa, and baby Gregg. Taken in May 1968.


One thing to think about: People have said "Vietnam was too recent" for a guy of Cooper's age.

Gossett was in Saigon, military, in 1967 from the picture (not sure of full years of service in Vietnam)

So it's an example, one, that goes against the common myths about service era. (I was talking a lot about civilians in Vietnam, but Gosset provides the Vietnam military example, with reasonable age)

It's funny (in terms of comic book!) that Gosset evidently did a tour at the US Embassy in France...not sure what year.
from
http://www.depoebaybeacon.com/news.asp?dtype=4&catid=6&recid=30

He finished his career as an ROTC instructor and retired from the Army at Ft. Lewis, Wash., in 1973.

Interesting he joined military below the age of 18. Something to think about, in terms of the WWII stuff georger mentions.

In 1946 at age 16 Gossett joined the Army Air Force, then switched branches in 1954 to become a U.S. Marine. After 10 years in the Corps, he jumped to the U.S. Army, serving one tour in Korea and two tours in Vietnam.

(edit) I just noticed that if Gossett was born in 1930, then he was just 41 at the time of the hijack. I thought Ckret said that was too young.

[Orange1 0]

observation...

Just because someone says he is something, doesn't mean he is.

Gossett said he was Cooper. Doesn't mean he was.

Some arbitrary guy says he was once a night clerk. Doesn't mean he was.

Another observation:
The economy in China is better than that in the US right now. US in recession, worst unemployment rate since 1982, Chinese growth rate has slowed sharply but still growing around 6%!! I wonder where it might be easier to find a job... especially should one have experience teaching english in a foreign country, for example.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

One thing to think about: People have said "Vietnam was too recent" for a guy of Cooper's age.

Gossett was in Saigon, military, in 1967 from the picture (not sure of full years of service in Vietnam)

So it's an example, one, that goes against the common myths about service era. (I was talking a lot about civilians in Vietnam, but Gosset provides the Vietnam military example, with reasonable age).............
In 1946 at age 16 Gossett joined the Army Air Force, then switched branches in 1954 to become a U.S. Marine. After 10 years in the Corps, he jumped to the U.S. Army, serving one tour in Korea and two tours in Vietnam.

(edit) I just noticed that if Gossett was born in 1930, then he was just 41 at the time of the hijack. I thought Ckret said that was too young.

Hm, Snow IIRC (and I may not) it was you who was the "people" saying Vietnam was too young.. I distinctly remember arguing people could have fought in Vietnam as well as being vets of the Korean war. (At the time I was trying to find out about paratrooper activity in Korea, I wasn't particularly successful but anyway that was before finding out re the first military freefalls in SE Asia during the Vietnam war).

I imagine a 41-year-old with Gosset's history may well have looked a bit older than he was

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

observation...

Just because someone says he is something, doesn't mean he is.

Gossett said he was Cooper. Doesn't mean he was.

Some arbitrary guy says he was once a night clerk. Doesn't mean he was.

Another observation:
The economy in China is better than that in the US right now. US in recession, worst unemployment rate since 1982, Chinese growth rate has slowed sharply but still growing around 6%!! I wonder where it might be easier to find a job... especially should one have experience teaching english in a foreign country, for example.

agreed.
I only posted the Gossett stuff because of the photos that weren't here before, and how Gossett himself shows that our thinking about WWII thru Vietnam military experience might be narrow-minded.

A question: if georger thinks WWII, is georger thinking career military all the way thru Vietnam or out after 1945?

I don't think Cooper was career military. What does georger think?

Also, how come Gossett isn't considered "too young" for a suspect, at 41 in 1971?

(edit) Yes I guess I did say Vietnam military were skewed young, based on looking at the service numbers I could find. I was surprised by Gossett being in Vietnam. But then again he was just 41. I was looking for 45+. Which led me to civilian in Vietnam being more interesting.

Should we be looking for 41-year olds for Cooper?

[Orange1 0]

Quote

.

Should we be looking for 41-year olds for Cooper?

yes.
people may be able to ballpark a guess, but there are so many factors that affect how people look. People i know - who have worked with me for 5 years - expressed surprise at a recent "big" birthday. the median "surprise" response was that they thought i looked 5 years younger, one kind person had me at 7 years younger!! i know people the same age as me who look 5 or more years older. i know 2 guys who are both 48, one looks like he is in his early 40s and the other looks around 55. If Cooper was pegged at mid-40s, i'd reckon a 40-50 span is relevant, may even be people in their 30s who look like they are in their 40s.

Have you ever seen "10 years younger"? I haven't seen the US version, but the UK version...well, let's say it is a real eye opener how lifestyle can age someone prematurely.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Some arbitrary guy says he was once a night clerk. Doesn't mean he was.

Precisely why the ex-wife who backs- up the night clerks story has been advised to make a statement also. This will be her choice.

Quote

Another observation:
The economy in China is better than that in the US right now. US in recession, worst unemployment rate since 1982, Chinese growth rate has slowed sharply but still growing around 6%!! I wonder where it might be easier to find a job... especially should one have experience teaching english in a foreign country, for example.

They are not currently hiring for his position. - conversational English.
He loves China and is eager to go back, but was unable to secure a position in the area he chose. He also has the age thing working against him along with the health issue that sent him home for "MAJOR" surgery in 2008.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 247]

Quote

But heck, look at Larr Carr, and the whole team of Citizen Sleuths on TV recently with their 15 minutes. They've contributed zero to the discussion so far. Now maybe they will, maybe they won't. Who knows.

Reply:

The citizen sleuths didnt request tv time. Lets be
clear about this -

Some of the sleuths strictly forbid it as a condition
of their being in the discussion at all!

The sleuths have contrubuted to "the discussion".
You assume this forum is "the discussion", but
this forum is only one discussion. There are other
discussions, in other places, at other times, ....

just to clear up some of your misunderstandings -

I am getting adled! I forgot the most important part-

which is to say:

WHOEVER ordained that THIS FORUM OR ANY FORUM
WAS 'THEE' DISCUSSION? I mean is there a formal
authorised discussion, somewhere? Anywhere? And
who proclaimed that? I dont remember anything like
that ever being announced by anyone anywhere?

Did Jo Weber proclaim and announce it to the world?

Did Snowmman? Did Sluggo? Did I? Did Quade?
Did Larry, Jerry, or Mary, or 377, 483, 19693.14159,
or Obama?

I must have missed the announcement, which is
"announ" + "cement" and the thy bone hooks to the
hip bone so there must be some kind of kind-of moral certainty in that, somewhere by somebody?

So if anyone feels they have been left out my
question is: "left out of what?"

Some people did this - some people did that - and
against all of this there is the backdrop of the real FBI
which Jo Weber says is irrelevant but also crucial! I have a hard time juggling all of these various
juxtapositions permutated on top of the one real
reality of the case itself, ie FBI and Cooper Hijacking.

I guess what this comes down to is different people tried to fit in into different places and no single place ever was a place everyone and everything could fit in to. Ckret and the FBI included.

My posting an invitation at Science Forum was a joke!
I dont expect any responses there, never intended to start my own group, did it partly out of frustration, and
if one single person ever replies there ten years from now I will be totally shocked and amazed, and even
disappointed - mainly that I now have to answer and accomodate some innocent person who knows nothing about the background of things here, and on and on and on... as luck goes it would be Cooper himself finding that isolated post of mine in the middle of nowhere and makes a reply! Cooper's WOW signal.
But Jo ad Snow would see that! Because I never go back to that forum to dsee if anyone has replied, for
the very reasons I cite above - itwas a joke out of
frustration expecting no replies or another "discussion".

I guess some felt this forum was "thee discussion".

Ckret would see his office as being "thee discussion".

Tom was see his _________ as "thee discussion" that
matters.

Sluggo sees his website as "thee discussion".

Snowmman sees the whole world as "thee discussion".

Jo wanted this thread she founded to be "thee discussion".

So many discussions - so little time. 19693545473936
has his ideas about what "thee discussion" should be.

Quade is probably the only sane person here and wants to the whole thing to just go away -

Labrys wants something better than mere outlines,
and I very much agree, but I also think I understand the remote chance of that ........ anywhere.

Jerry and Shelly are going to keep looking in any event. They are saints in my book, and friends with H,
and part of the Washington family which in some small
way intersects with my flesh-and-blood family who were
in Vancouver and at Tacoma, some in law enforcement to finally answer one of Jo's persistent questions -

I had one great aunt who with her Minster husband
was saying prayers for Cooper & the FBI that nobody
would get hurt! I had a grandmother in her eighties saying "lets go out a help git him!" and we all laughed.
Dear people all in the Great State of Washington!

But I confess I DO NOT know how to nail any of this down any better than what this forum and Tom's group have done in the past year or so, baring some miracle
that would bring new evidence into the light of day.

None of us can be in fifteen places at once, with 15
different perspectives and biases and goals/motives.

And so the story goes on and it will go on...

That's all I can say.

Georger

[snowmman 3]

georger asked:
"WHOEVER ordained that THIS FORUM OR ANY FORUM
WAS 'THEE' DISCUSSION? I mean is there a formal
authorised discussion, somewhere? Anywhere? And
who proclaimed that? I dont remember anything like
that ever being announced by anyone anywhere?"


uh. I think no one did. There is no official DBC thread, is there?
We just ended up here. The jumpers have more of an excuse than the rest of us.

If you're saying there's more info elsewhere, point me at it, and I'll go gather it up. If there's not accessible info elsewhere, then it doesn't matter.

I was talking about this idea of "fame" that Shelley brought up wrt Jo.

You morphed it into official threads and stuff.

I was also saying the Citizen Sleuths haven't provided any info. I think that's true.

If you're saying they have, I just haven't seen it, then point me to it. If you're saying I can't see it, then that's the same as providing no info.

What am I missing?

(edit) "Snowmman sees the whole world as "thee discussion". "

You got that right! My main concern is Orange1 reading all this and saying "Geez, the USA was never all it was cracked up to be", and all of a sudden no one in South Africa is buying US Treasury Bonds any more, and then word gets out to China thru the night clerk, and the shit really hits the fan then!