DB Cooper

[georger 247]

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Georger wrote:

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I see Cooper as an ordinary man driven to extra-
ordinary acts, not confident, and off his game that
he might have been better at when younger

Gee Georger... that pretty much describes every guy over 40 who still skydives.

I liked your back brace dry cell cold fusion reactor joke. Glad to see your sense of humor come out now and then.

Didn't the cold fusion fiasco actually start in Salt Lake City?

377

I asked my uncle Glenn last Sunday
if he was DB Cooper - a WWII paratrooper captured
& escaped three times - he's also our only Mormon
in the family. He's 88. He laughed and said, "hell no". And then he deliveed the lowest cut of all -
he asked, "Are you still thinking about all of that?
You do know you'r grandma was only pulling your leg dont you....." ........ we had him on a speaker phone, my son behind me roared with laughter. So we can scratch one WWII vet off the list. well Im sure
nobody cares -

I mentioned cold fusion because it was in the news
again last week. A new article in Science pending.
Announced by Navy researchers at a Portland
conference of the American Chemical Soc. You
can search the web for details -

[georger 247]

I'm guessing that all georger is suggesting is that the age suggests some WWII involvement.

i.e if Cooper was 45-50, then in 1945 (26 years earlier) he was 19-24, so he would likely have been drafted or more likely enlisted.

If he was on the low side of the age, he may have still been in training but never deployed. (WWII ended 9/45)...i.e. if Cooper was 45, then in 44 he would have been 18. May never have been deployed.

So there's a lot of possibilities. Minimally I was wondering why georger thought paratrooper. Because that gave him skills or the idea or ??? (it would be reaching back 26 years for skills?)

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yes, its the age factor I focus on.

I think paratrooper because I dont see Cooper
as completely irrational. Jumping from an airplane
is a very specific skill. He either had experience
or he didnt - even minimal experience. If he had
no experience then he is more irrational than I
think.

I could be completely wrong, but his age range
does seem to place him in an age bracket, to
me.

On another note, many people generally portray
Cooper as being calm, cool, and collected. Ckret
poked a hole in that, I think. Cooper also spent
time in the bathroom which is generally taken as
hiding/evading as the passengers were deplaned.
He could have also gone to the bathroom because
he was sick (from stress). Its an option we never discussed ...

• Quote

[georger 247]

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observation...

Just because someone says he is something, doesn't mean he is.

Gossett said he was Cooper. Doesn't mean he was.

Some arbitrary guy says he was once a night clerk. Doesn't mean he was.

Another observation:
The economy in China is better than that in the US right now. US in recession, worst unemployment rate since 1982, Chinese growth rate has slowed sharply but still growing around 6%!! I wonder where it might be easier to find a job... especially should one have experience teaching english in a foreign country, for example.

I have a number of reasons to believe (from very
credible witnesses) that the FBI and area law enforcement checked every conceivable hotel, motel, privy, and bush in a very wide thorough
effort to uncover anyone who had stayed at a hotel, a YMCA, and you-name-it prior to and immediately after 11-24-71 ... from north of Seattle south below Portland, and areas east and west of V23. This effort continued for months, I am told.

If Jo's hotel clerk was on duty its a little hard to believe he escaped notice or being interviewed.
I have nothing more to offer on this than that.
I know what Im saying in incomplete, but there was a huge effort to make a very wide comprehensive search that lasted months, on both the part of the FBI and every level of law enforcement throughout Washington.

[georger 247]

I don't think Cooper was career military. What does georger think?

[377 22]

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BTW, my uncle says that if Cooper's shoes were
the snug-fitting above ankle type especially with a zip on one side, then he probably kept his shoes
in the jump, and Cooper may have even selected that type of shoe because of its snug fit.

G's uncle is correct. That kind of shoe would make Cooper's jump plan seem far better prepared and planned. We equate "loafers" with a scatterbrained ill prepared impulsive Cooper.

Shoes make the man.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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I mentioned cold fusion because it was in the news
again last week. A new article in Science pending.
Announced by Navy researchers at a Portland
conference of the American Chemical Soc. You
can search the web for details -

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j2QobOQnlULUZ7oalSRUVjnlHjng

Wow, no back brace either. Portland.... hmmmm

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

It make take a while, but I always try to make sure we get the history right. This is from back in 2000, we discussed this already.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/body-of-philippine-skywayman-discovered-716331.html

That guy who hijacked in the phillipines, and jumped out with a homemade parachute? We always make it sound like he had no chance in hell.

I just found an article with more detail. Apparently his chute did deploy, even though homemade. That's how people on the ground spotted him.

Apparently the problem was he detached from the chute after a little while.

So this should be filed under harness or other rig failure, not a no-pull or no-deploy. They say he floated for five minutes, which is quite a while, from a 6000 ft jump altitude. They say the chute was 10 to 15 meters in diameter.

So, it's interesting that he did a jet jump, with a homemade rig/canopy, and successfully deployed and had 5 minutes of canopy flight.

Also, the chute was lavender.

"A local leader in the area, Basilio Gesmundo, told DZMM Radio that residents saw a plane circling, and saw something fall from the plane.

Finally the parachute opened, and they saw a man floating for about five minutes, but then he separated from the parachute and fell into the forested mountains, Gesmundo said.

The man landed so hard that his body was buried in mud, with only his knees and hands protruding, a police officer told the radio station.

The lavender chute, about 10 meters to 15 meters (yards) in diameter, could have saved the man if he had had time to fasten it to his body better, the officer said."

another article:
"On Thursday, Capt. Emmanuel Generoso, one of the pilots, described the parachute as ''homemade, ordinary and (made from) thin nylon.''

In another article, they say he was at aeronautical school

Chua said her late husband enrolled their son at the Mindanao Aeronautical and Technical School here, but Reginald appeared to have lost interest in pursuing a college degree."

In another article, his younger brother said he dreamed of being a skydiver. (this is interesting with how it aligns with things Hubbard the shrink said)

"The man who hijacked a Philippine Airlines jet and died after leaping out of the plane with a homemade parachute had once dreamed of floating through the sky, his brother said Monday.

``He longed to be a skydiver,'' Rannie Chua said of his older brother, Reginald. ``But he had never jumped before.''

Rather than "robbing" the passengers, it was more like they took up a collection when he wanted more money:

"Inside the cockpit, Emmanuel Generoso, the most senior of the three pilots on board, took control of the plane after the hijacking was announced.

He described the hijacker as "deranged" and crying, saying that his family had left him.

The man said he wanted money and Generoso offered him all his cash, but the man wanted more, so the crew took up a collection from the passengers, put the cash in a small plastic bag and gave it to him."

What's weird is a crew member convinced him to jump. He wasn't pushed, (that was one report), although the pilot had given instructions to push him if he hesitated

"When the door was finally opened, a powerful gust of wind blew from the outside, forcing the man back.

But another crew trainer, Francis Cabel, convinced him to go ahead and jump."

It was an Airbus 330-301 Registration F-OHZ. I attached a 330 picture, so you guys can assess the probability of tail strike from the rear side door. Apparently he was okay with it. The plane was circling apparently when he jumped.

(edit) Updated to add picture of the exact plane: A330-301 F-OHZ* (actually one of several F-OHZ* registered to that airline)

[377 22]

Astounding and so very very sad.

I had read somewhere that his chute disintegrated. Amazing that it deployed and held together. Wonder what the rig was like and what his decent rate was?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Astounding and so very very sad.

I had read somewhere that his chute disintegrated. Amazing that it deployed and held together. Wonder what the rig was like and what his decent rate was?

377

It was bigger than 28' if it was flat circular. they mentioned a diameter.

What I can't understand is how he attached lines to the nylon.

He must have sewn it. He went to aeronautical school. So he wasn't a stupid idiot.

I mean, Ckret had his ADD engineer theory.
This guy had the combination of being able to get into aeronautical school, assemble a canopy that would survive a jet exit (unclear exit speed, probably pretty slow?).

I think the robbery was besides the point. Sounds like he just really wanted to skydive. A dreamer.

(edit) I wonder how he packed the homemade canopy. He couldn't have just thrown the canopy out the door and gone with it?

(edit) reading again, it sounds like he had a delayed pull:
witness said:
"and saw something fall from the plane.
Finally the parachute opened"

[377 22]

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What I can't understand is how he attached lines to the nylon.

Bet you could tie square knots between suspension lines and bunched up nylon material at the skirt. You know all about knots Snow, your opinion?

What courage this guy had. Absolutely amazing story.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I don't know about courage. I think people just do things that are very strangely high risk sometimes. Sometimes they die and sometimes they don't. This guy was a German doctor.


from NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/10/17/us/nevada-stunt-victim-said-to-be-an-inventor.html
Nevada Stunt Victim Said to Be an Inventor

UPI
Published: October 17, 1986

A man who mysteriously jumped out of a plane to his death on Oct. 6 before videotape cameras was a West German inventor trying to get publicity for a parachute he had invented, the police said today.

The 36-year-old inventor, Hajo Harms, was killed when the homemade parachute he had hidden under his white dinner jacket failed to open after he stepped from the chartered Cessna 210 when it was flying at 10,000 feet.

''He felt he could get more publicity in this country, and Las Vegas has a lot of notoriety,'' Lieut. Paul Conner of the Las Vegas police said. ''He was right. He got a lot of publicity.''

Searchers found Mr. Harms's body two days later tangled in the lines of the parachute four miles south of Railroad Pass Casino, a small gaming resort between Las Vegas and Boulder City. But the authorities had remained mystified about the incident, which was recorded by a a notary and two video camera operators hired by Mr. Harms to record his jump.

Apparently was a German doctor.
The pilot tried to grab him as he went out the door.

[skyjack71 0]

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If Jo's hotel clerk was on duty its a little hard to believe he escaped notice or being interviewed.
I have nothing more to offer on this than that.

Georger:
The night Clerk was interviewed along with the manager and another desk clerk in 1971. In this interview he told the FBI about a man who stayed there fitting the description and the name he used. The FBI collected the registration card putting it in a plastic bag after cautioning him not to touch it. That interview made a long lasting impression on him. He was not contacted again by the FBI and assumed that the man checked out .

Then in 2001 - there is a picture of a man in the paper who had confessed to being Dan Cooper and the article stated this man used an AKA of Collins. This is what got the night clerks attention - and the reason he contacted me. I then sent him more pictures and his memory of the events on that day the FBI interviewed him in 71 was cause for me to contact the FBI (2001 or early 2002) and provide them with the name of the man and his contact information - the FBI did NOT contact him.

Agent Carr acted like he had never heard of this night clerk - I again provided the contact information. After some time not hearing anything from the FBI this night clerk of 1971 decided to take it on himself to go to the FBI inperson with a notarized statement in the late fall of 2008.

The FBI not making a reasonable effort to contact this man was perplexing. It was only my stomping and screaming in this forum that Carr did a cursory look at the files for the reigistration card and claimed he found none.

Carr's reply to the fourm left us or me thinking they found NO reports of any hotel interviews. Remember my coming back on him and stating these interviews would have been done in the course of the investigation...I don't remember if he replied to that or not.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Jo:

I wouldn't worry about what got done or didn't get done.

Larry is probably a nice guy, but if you step back and look at all the information and data (like the simple thing of the quality of the flight path map, and where the data for that came from!), then you just have to accept that the FBI investigation had a lot of holes.

And nothing is really being done nowadays.

One can stamp their feet as much as possible about that, but it's just reality.

I've said it before, that if we see an apparent error rate in one aspect of the FBI investigation, it's reasonable to assume a similar error rate exists in all areas of the investigation.

It would be unrealistic to assume that the FBI investigation was somehow perfect in all areas.

I've been thinking that part of what drove you crazy, was that there was this pretense of an investigation, and you accepted it.
If you understand there really isn't, you should be able to sleep better.

This goes to my acceptance, now, that we were never the problem in this forum. We just thought something was going on with Ckret, that really wasn't.

I think part of the pretense of investigation is driven by people outside the FBI (H., Thomas, news media etc.) and that the FBI doesn't deny it, hoping that somehow a tip will trickle in.

[quade 4]

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WHOEVER ordained that THIS FORUM OR ANY FORUM
WAS 'THEE' DISCUSSION?

You are free (really free!) to take the entire conversation somewhere else if you'd like. There is absolutely nobody on the planet stopping anyone from doing that.

That said, as far as DZ.com in concerned, if you're going to talk about it here on DZ.com, we'd like to keep the conversation about DB Cooper confined to this ONE thread. The biggest reason is so it doesn't spin off into 10,000 threads which are much more difficult to manage.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[georger 247]

He must have sewn it. He went to aeronautical school. So he wasn't a stupid idiot.

I mean, Ckret had his ADD engineer theory.
This guy had the combination of being able to get into aeronautical school, assemble a canopy that would survive a jet exit (unclear exit speed, probably pretty slow?).

I think the robbery was besides the point. Sounds like he just really wanted to skydive. A dreamer.

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As you know, there have been numerous studies
based around some model of the "rational man".
Turns out there is no such thing as a "rational
man" no matter how you define it. Its not simply
a matter of good vs bad vs middling decision
making - it often comes down to whether 'any'
decisions making process will occur at all. People
very often just react, or leap, and quite often based
on no thought process at all. And context matters.
When people are treated as if 'anything' could happen,
quite often 'anything' will and does happen.

If you restrict context to a narrow stream of possible
behaviors then you can do nice things like predict
if certain types of people will graduate or not graduate,
based on a number of factors. Tests can be contructed
to measure people's potentials with this narrow stream - the field is called Ed Psych Measurement.

As a rule, humans like to believe there are reasons
behind every other human action, whether there are
reasons or not. Humans are something more than
mere reactive animals - the claim goes. Humans
however are not always that rational, or stream-
oriented. And sometimes the very fact humans can
abstract so freely even widens the possibility of a
human being less rational, than say a blind starving
raccoon that has wandered out of the woods onto some
playground. HL Menken said: "Humans are super-
ficially rational" in an attempt to capture voting behavior. Sam Clemens said: "If you want to get
a kid well educated, lock him in a barrel for 15 years
and feed him through the bunghole in the barrel!".

As long as Cooper rode the plane his stream of options
remained wide. The moment he decided to parachute
(his choice?) his options narrowed. Outside observers
would basically split on their opinions about this: Cooper was either experienced, or a fool. In either
event physics takes over and applies to Cooper from
that point on.

Very likely the stress on Cooper was accumulating
through the whole event. This may or may not have
affected his final decision to bail. He may slowly have
arrived at a point where he felt he had no options,
or was so determined there were never any options.
(There is no outside evidence - yet - to decide what
emotional state Cooper was in vis-a-vis what by most
accounts we could call stress). eg. he didnt throw up
on the plane?

Or, this was all a simple flow of events for Cooper,
sticking to a plan from beginning to end. That would
be the sign of a trained man, a man with a mission,
and man who subverts his personal emotions in lieu
of the plan. And he jumps, like a robot acting.

This leaves experts to ponder Cooper's background,
personhood, and his rationality which may in reality
have all been contained in "the plan" being conducted
by a trained person, or a person self-trained.

[georger 247]

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WHOEVER ordained that THIS FORUM OR ANY FORUM
WAS 'THEE' DISCUSSION?

You are free (really free!) to take the entire conversation somewhere else if you'd like. There is absolutely nobody on the planet stopping anyone from doing that.

That said, as far as DZ.com in concerned, if you're going to talk about it here on DZ.com, we'd like to keep the conversation about DB Cooper confined to this ONE thread. The biggest reason is so it doesn't spin off into 10,000 threads which are much more difficult to manage.

which is exactly what I said above ...

I havent asked for any more threads here...
have I? (I shudder at the thought!)

Or, are you saying in behalf of 196918171
and others there is a hidden editorial
function here at DZ.com? And you want 377,
Snowmman, Jo,. Sluggo, Bruce, Tom K, Safe
and others here ...

but you specifically do not want Ckret, Georger,
Jerry, Shelly, H, and others of that stripe here?

That of course would be an EDITORIAL function on
your and DZ.com's part, and would go to the heart
of the matter .... possibly in behalf of 196954746
and others here who obviously want some people gone so they can have "their" fireside comfort ?

I can only guess since you werent specific.

[quade 4]

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Quote

Quote

WHOEVER ordained that THIS FORUM OR ANY FORUM
WAS 'THEE' DISCUSSION?

You are free (really free!) to take the entire conversation somewhere else if you'd like. There is absolutely nobody on the planet stopping anyone from doing that.

That said, as far as DZ.com in concerned, if you're going to talk about it here on DZ.com, we'd like to keep the conversation about DB Cooper confined to this ONE thread. The biggest reason is so it doesn't spin off into 10,000 threads which are much more difficult to manage.

which is exactly what I said above ...

I havent asked for any more threads here...
have I?

Just confirming.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

I wasn't going to respond, but maybe some jumpers can talk about their mental states and add something interesting.

Georger's long post musing on Cooper's mental state sounded okay on first read, but then I thought, no it doesn't feel quite right.

some thoughts;

"In either event physics takes over and applies to Cooper from that point on."

I think the jumpers would disagree with that. It wouldn't be an interesting sport if you just resign yourself to uncontrollable forces once you step outside.

If it was just physics once Cooper stepped outside, it would be easier.

But vagaries about the rig, and Cooper's abilities, whether trained or untrained, are probably stronger-order determinants of success here, than the physics.

That's why analyzing wind etc, doesn't really matter. It's second order. Even the night is second order.

Because an untrained person can overcome all those difficulties.
McNally proved it, for one.

It would be easier to guess at something like "put a shotgun in your mouth, pull the trigger, do you live or die?" There the physics is more of a sure thing.

georger said:
"As long as Cooper rode the plane his stream of options remained wide."

Actually, if Cooper had any brains, he would realize there were no options as long as he rode the plane. Certain capture. Jumping was all about options. Jumping meant had more control of the situation, as long as the chute was okay.

I'm thinking of wanting to jump off a moving train. You know the train is accelerating, so it only gets worse the more you delay. So as long as you're confident that the future is guaranteed worse than the present, you go with the present, since it's the best option.
And you jump off the train.

georger said:
"And he jumps, like a robot acting"

Here's something the jumpers can chime in on. I suspect for these time-dependent high-risk sports, the goal at the high end is almost "like a robot acting"...i.e. you see something, you do something. No emotion. Just absorbing the situation, and reacting as you've previously thought thru (trained etc.)

The emotion clutters the brain, so isn't part of the training/experience, to be utterly unemotional even when facing a suddenly increased risk of death?. I think it's more like "I do this, I die, I do this, I probably don't die, I do this, seems like the best choice".

Pretty robotic.

[JerryThomas 0]

quade Haven't talked to you before now is my chance .I agree with your comment about this thread being about the cooper case. and I think it should be that way. Is there any way we can keep people off this thread that makes up stories to fit there fantisies. I believe that the facts in this case can and should be reviewed by all. I just left a conference in Portland that Ralph and I spoke at. all that was presented was the facts.Then we opened it up for questions. alot of the normal questions came up. They were answered with facts and knowledge /experence / common sense involving the case.There are times that people contact both Ralph and I by telephone that we do not make people aware of. This is only fair to all, we must keep the lines of comunication opened.However I feel there is a fine line between building a story and adding to it in order to gain personal satisfication.Your call is always respected I would not post this comment if I didn't think it was neccesary I Know a alot of the people on this thread personaly and I am happy with most of them.I do believe that there expertise in there fields are very important. The key word is expertise and not fantisie. Jerry Thomas

[1969912 0]

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quade Haven't talked to you before now is my chance .I agree with your comment about this thread being about the cooper case. and I think it should be that way. Is there any way we can keep people off this thread that makes up stories to fit there fantisies. I believe that the facts in this case can and should be reviewed by all. I just left a conference in Portland that Ralph and I spoke at. all that was presented was the facts.Then we opened it up for questions. alot of the normal questions came up. They were answered with facts and knowledge /experence / common sense involving the case.There are times that people contact both Ralph and I by telephone that we do not make people aware of. This is only fair to all, we must keep the lines of comunication opened.However I feel there is a fine line between building a story and adding to it in order to gain personal satisfication.Your call is always respected I would not post this comment if I didn't think it was neccesary I Know a alot of the people on this thread personaly and I am happy with most of them.I do believe that there expertise in there fields are very important. The key word is expertise and not fantisie. Jerry Thomas

RTFM: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=142088

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

Hi Jerry,

So tell us more about the conference?

Sounds like fun.

Also:
what kind of expertise are you thinking is required in the DBC case?

(edit) I just had a random thought.
I posted what I thought was the historical precedent for the comic book angle and where/who posted it first. Since then, I've found a canadian comic book nut with a blog who had a blog entry that talked about how he always had a whacky theory along those lines (since he knew about the comic long ago)

Now I think the comic book angle is way out there. But it's on the FBI page.

In terms of expertise, and the experts you envision: would they have come up with the comic book idea which the FBI seems to love?

That's the problem with stuff where you don't know the answer. You don't know who can contribute something useful.

Especially when no one is getting paid. The best measuring stick is "anyone who feels like it".

But I guess everyone has their own point of view. I'm interested in yours.

(edit) here's another thing to think about, Jerry. Does Wikipedia work or not work? Why or why not? If you believe Wikipedia works, it's a very complicated set of reasons why. And it's not about controlling access, to only branded "experts".

[snowmman 3]

I was reading the history page of the Portland FBI.
Bunch of interesting cases.

They moved to a new building in 1971. You can see their workload in 1971 here:

http://portland.fbi.gov/history.htm

"In 1971, the Portland office moved to its current location in the Crown Plaza Office Building at SW 1st and Clay. At this time, the Division handled an average annual workload of 1,446 criminal cases, 832 security cases, and 84 applicant/other cases. The Division had grown to 60 agents and 36 support employees. "


This was funny since we're always talking about CB stuff and signalling: (1974 bombings/$1 million ransom deal)

"Despite the bomber’s use of a complicated communications system in his demands—including citizen’s band (CB) radios, morse code, and duck calls—the FBI tracked him down. "

[JerryThomas 0]

You don't realy care so wy do you ask

[georger 247]

Quote

I wasn't going to respond, but maybe some jumpers can talk about their mental states and add something interesting.

Georger's long post musing on Cooper's mental state sounded okay on first read, but then I thought, no it doesn't feel quite right. some thoughts;

"In either event physics takes over and applies to Cooper from that point on."

I think the jumpers would disagree with that. It wouldn't be an interesting sport if you just resign yourself to uncontrollable forces once you step outside.

If it was just physics once Cooper stepped outside, it would be easier.

But vagaries about the rig, and Cooper's abilities, whether trained or untrained, are probably stronger-order determinants of success here, than the physics.

Those are all physical components, or what am I missing? Physics! Bio-physics. Once again you stray from the issues: trained or untrained, lucky vs unlucky, the winds, etc etc etc...

That's why analyzing wind etc, doesn't really matter. It's second order. Even the night is second order.

Because an untrained person can overcome all those difficulties.
McNally proved it, for one.

It would be easier to guess at something like "put a shotgun in your mouth, pull the trigger, do you live or die?" There the physics is more of a sure thing.

Quote

Trying to distill the above:

so you are saying the probability which governs Cooper's jump is the same probability which governs one instance of an untrained jumper jumping, which isnt as high as:

"it would be easier to guess at something like "put a shotgun in your mouth, pull the trigger, do you live or die?" There the physics is more of a sure thing."

What I have noticed about your posts is, what assures you Cooper had the same thought
patterns you have? That he assessed probabilities the way you do? That Cooper saw and evaluated things in the same way you do? Or is there some
universal way of looking at this you know that I dont
know about?
_______________________________________________

I'm thinking of wanting to jump off a moving train. You know the train is accelerating, so it only gets worse the more you delay. So as long as you're confident that the future is guaranteed worse than the present, you go with the present, since it's the best option. And you jump off the train.

Quote

You mean jump early before the train accelerates?
That could agree with Ckret and the theory Cooper wanted to jump at SEA just after takeoff. Of course
that poses new issues for a jump of that nature vrs
waiting, as Cooper waited and the pilots trimmed
the plane to accomodate a jump which is the actual
record of what occured?

So if we apply your logic to Cooper under the premise
your logic is a universal logic Cooper must apply,
then Cooper screwed up by not jumping before the
plane had "accelerated"? (The plane must at least
become airborn or should he have jumped out the back on the runway before the plane was airborn, under your theory?)

I just dont see that some of your logic applies to
Cooper, or conforms with the actual the record,
but maybe youc an clear all of this with: Georger
just does not understand?

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[snowmman 3]

jumping past the Cooper question, since it's unanswerable, another first order determinant would be whether he landed in the Columbia. Regardless of training, death would be likely.

We also have to rexamine our thinking on the money. We stopped talking about bag protection theories. It's likely the Clay Report is correct, and the money arrived post '74.

Did the money move around with the bag? Seems a stretch.

I still really like the dredging theory. Cooper in the columbia, dredge pump spit out the money.

Why? Because Ckret's information about what can pass thru these dredges is just wrong. (I've provided info and pictures before, but here's some more)

Here's a quick cite: (remember a molded-together stack of 3 bundles is smaller than a 6 inch sphere. A bill is only 2.61 inches wide and 6.14 long, and they can flop a bit.

The size it can pass depends on the pump. This reference just mentions passing 4 to 6 inch sphere.

"sphere passage" is the metric they use when describing a pump and what jams it. (because that determines the cutter head you can use)

http://www.dredgingspecialists.com/AquaticRemediation.htm

) Problems With Hydraulic Dredges.

a) Continual plugging of the dredge pump with oversize debris. A dredge pump will pass a 4 to 6 inch spherical object. However, a 10-inch long stick can jam in the eye of the impeller. A few sticks, boards, metal objects, leaves, cattails, and you have a plugged pump. The only way to remove a plug from a dredge pump is by hand. This puts people in contact with muddy, sloppy, contaminated material. Contaminated material is slopped all over the deck of the dredge, back in the water and in boats, as it is transferred to shore.



In this book "Slurry Systems" by Baha E. Abulnaga
http://books.google.com/books?id=yuZNmg2QWzEC&pg=PT447&lpg=PT447&dq=pipeline+dredge+impeller+sphere&source=bl&ots=iqK5KJ_vXx&sig=42lEWwO5GWBlb4R7q88TVpURxP0&hl=en&ei=jQzLSeHSE4KOsQPx9Z2hCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

There is a table of "Recommended Maximum Size of Spheres for the Design of the Width of Vanes of Slurry and Dredge Pumps"

(edit) He's talking about the diameter of a sphere that will pass thru the impeller in the pump. Note that wet money bundles could also be protected by sand as they pass thru the pump. First order is understanding the size of the pump and it's sphere passage.


The Sphere diameter in the table goes from 3" to 21" for dredge pumps.

It depends on the discharge diameter.

The point being: without knowing the exact pipeline dredge used, we have to allow for the possibility that the dredge could have passed the object.

The small amount of data Ckret provided (some testimony) is insufficient. Ckret's testimony implied that the presence of "blades" in the impeller was obvious enough that the money would be shredded. That assumption is wrong.

Since dredging seems to fit the rest of the data, for having moved the money, then we really need to find out what dredge was used, and revisit the idea that the dredge had to destroy the money. It may have destroyed a lot of it. All we need is 3 moldy bundles stuck together.

It's basic.

If TK and the Citizen's Work Force wanted to do a good experiment, it would be passing bundles thru the same pipeline dredge that was used in 1974.

A high school science fair project would think of that.

p.s. I'm really curious what would drag Himmelsbach out to a "conference". His book is out of print. Used copies are relatively expensive. He's not pitching his book. Does he have anything useful to add? What kind of people want to listen to him? Who was at the conference?