snowmman 3
Orange1 0
QuoteI have viewed aerial landscapes at night and made errors based on seeing what I expected to see rather than what is actually there. You initially make the scene fit your expectation and ignore the inconsistent stuff.
Human nature. Some people do it with evidence here
but I come across it most often proof-reading reports - typos get missed because people read what they expect to read, not what's there.
One of the funniest things that has happened to me re aerial landscapes is waking up during an overnight flight as we were almost home, looking out the window ... and seeing the dropzone beneath
in the time it took me to figure out what i was seeing we were past it, seeing as big boeings fly faster than small cessnas 
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Geoger and Orange 1 there has been no official 3rd map drawn. I have drawn one for my own personal use and discused it with Ralph.But that is as far as it has gone. Part of what I,ve used for my map has been actual on the ground research. both in the field and experience.Along with discustions with Ralph H and Ralph Hope.I have not discused this with anyone else.Orange One your comments about reading and sight perception is right on. The word that comes to mind for you is Intelegence. Respect is the one thing that you deserve. You read situations very well. Jerry
377 22
QuoteOne of the funniest things that has happened to me re aerial landscapes is waking up during an overnight flight as we were almost home, looking out the window ... and seeing the dropzone beneath Laugh in the time it took me to figure out what i was seeing we were past it, seeing as big boeings fly faster than small cessnas Smile
Orange,
Nothing worse than flying over a DZ with a door that you can't (legally) open. Cooper, however, had his own rules.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
Jerry said "I have not discussed this with anyone else"
Hi Jerry.
I once put together a list of attributes that seem to be common to anyone involved with the DBC thing historically.
One is "secret information"
Why would you not discuss it with anyone else?
Another is "Other people can understand that certain things need to be secret"
Why would you mention how you haven't discussed it with anyone else? Why would we care?
You've got a map. You put it together based on some set of information. Okay. Maybe it represents a good theory, maybe not.
But why the cloak and dagger stuff?
Here's a thought: If you think you have secret information, what's the likelihood that others have secreter information that renders your secret information invalid/nonsensical?
See there's no reason that you Jerry, are somehow the top of the secret pyramid.
But maybe there's something I'm missing.
TK has reasons for secrets, but they're around ego, publishing rights, buddy-buddy with Ckret to get info.
Are yours similar? With Himmelsbach? (seems like a poor trade. TK did better)
Hi Jerry.
I once put together a list of attributes that seem to be common to anyone involved with the DBC thing historically.
One is "secret information"
Why would you not discuss it with anyone else?
Another is "Other people can understand that certain things need to be secret"
Why would you mention how you haven't discussed it with anyone else? Why would we care?
You've got a map. You put it together based on some set of information. Okay. Maybe it represents a good theory, maybe not.
But why the cloak and dagger stuff?
Here's a thought: If you think you have secret information, what's the likelihood that others have secreter information that renders your secret information invalid/nonsensical?
See there's no reason that you Jerry, are somehow the top of the secret pyramid.
But maybe there's something I'm missing.
TK has reasons for secrets, but they're around ego, publishing rights, buddy-buddy with Ckret to get info.
Are yours similar? With Himmelsbach? (seems like a poor trade. TK did better)
Georger said:
Look at the 1971 SEA Sectional. The yellow areas are not civil boundaries, but light patterns. When a pilot is flying at night and can see the ground, he/she IDs cities by that pattern. Also remember there are no state boundaries on a sectional chart, so the fact that Vancouver is in WA doesn’t mean it isn’t a suburb of Portland, OR. Pilots tend to think in terms of airports, terminal areas, and NAVAIDS. When a pilot says we are 10 miles from Portland, I assume he means PDX. There is where the ATCs are, where the ILS is, and where the VOR is. (PDX also means the PORTLAND VOR/DME). The City of Portland is 4 miles SW of PDX (the airport and the VOR/DME). So, FWIW my money is on: Vancouver is the suburbs of Portland whether you are talking about the Airport or the city.
Georger said:
I would be surprised if Tina had EVER been on V-23, and I would bet Rataczak, Scott and Anderson had NEVER been also. They were stationed in MN and passenger carrying aircraft don’t (usually) fly low altitude, VFR airways. They would however, probably be very familiar with J-1, J-126, J-5, and J-65.
Now, I want to say something and I don’t want to hear any shit about “secrecy”. Sometimes to get people to talk, you have to promise confidentiality.
I have been carrying on a dialog with a journalist/film-maker. He made a comment to me (as a statement of fact) that really caused me to perk up my ears. I have asked him for proof (a source) of a statement he made that might change some of the thinking about the “pressure bump” issue. Here is my e-mail to his assistant who had asked if there was anything else she could do for me:
I have been thinking about my British 727 friend Benson, and what he said about the older 727s (relative to today) with pneumatic cabin Pressure/Altitude control systems sometimes creating a spurious “pressure bump” (his words and he doesn’t follow the NORJAK case). I wonder how much “time-in-type” there was between Scott, Anderson, and Rataczak?
Is it just me or does "triggered a recollection" mean something different than “we felt that before”?
If they had truly felt a pressure bump and thought Cooper had jumped before the Columbia (or Willamette, see I pay attention) why didn’t they land at PDX or EUG (they were cleared for both)?
Sluggo_Monster
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QuoteRat never mentions Vancouver at all! Rat doesnt say: "Vancouver and Portland". He just says Portland.
Look at the 1971 SEA Sectional. The yellow areas are not civil boundaries, but light patterns. When a pilot is flying at night and can see the ground, he/she IDs cities by that pattern. Also remember there are no state boundaries on a sectional chart, so the fact that Vancouver is in WA doesn’t mean it isn’t a suburb of Portland, OR. Pilots tend to think in terms of airports, terminal areas, and NAVAIDS. When a pilot says we are 10 miles from Portland, I assume he means PDX. There is where the ATCs are, where the ILS is, and where the VOR is. (PDX also means the PORTLAND VOR/DME). The City of Portland is 4 miles SW of PDX (the airport and the VOR/DME). So, FWIW my money is on: Vancouver is the suburbs of Portland whether you are talking about the Airport or the city.
Georger said:
QuoteI think a lot of this depends on how well Rat and Scott and Anderson knew the area, Tina too. How many times had they flown V23 before coming south?
I would be surprised if Tina had EVER been on V-23, and I would bet Rataczak, Scott and Anderson had NEVER been also. They were stationed in MN and passenger carrying aircraft don’t (usually) fly low altitude, VFR airways. They would however, probably be very familiar with J-1, J-126, J-5, and J-65.
Now, I want to say something and I don’t want to hear any shit about “secrecy”. Sometimes to get people to talk, you have to promise confidentiality.
I have been carrying on a dialog with a journalist/film-maker. He made a comment to me (as a statement of fact) that really caused me to perk up my ears. I have asked him for proof (a source) of a statement he made that might change some of the thinking about the “pressure bump” issue. Here is my e-mail to his assistant who had asked if there was anything else she could do for me:
QuoteAlso, [REDACTED] was going to check his records and let me know his source for a statement attributed to First Officer Rataczak during the sled-drop test. Rataczak was reported to have said that the "pressure bump" during the drop test "triggered a recollection" of the same sort of pressure bump, during the flight.
From the standpoint of someone who has done many accident investigations, the difference between "I recall the same kind of bump" and "It triggered a recollection of the same kind of bump" is absolutely pregnant with a misidentification of the action.
I have been thinking about my British 727 friend Benson, and what he said about the older 727s (relative to today) with pneumatic cabin Pressure/Altitude control systems sometimes creating a spurious “pressure bump” (his words and he doesn’t follow the NORJAK case). I wonder how much “time-in-type” there was between Scott, Anderson, and Rataczak?
Is it just me or does "triggered a recollection" mean something different than “we felt that before”?
If they had truly felt a pressure bump and thought Cooper had jumped before the Columbia (or Willamette, see I pay attention) why didn’t they land at PDX or EUG (they were cleared for both)?
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
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NORJAK Forum
dy8coke,
Here are some illustrations and photos of Manual Cabin Pressure Control, cabin pressure Indicator, and the FE's panel:
Cabin Alt.jpg is from the B-272 manual.
Manual Pres Cabin Contr.jpg is from the B-272 manual.
Detail of Instruments.jpg is a photo of the instruments you are looking for in the next photo.
727-SO-Panel_RED.jpg the Second Officer (or Flight Engineer) panel.
727-SO-Panel_RED.jpg is another photo showing the whole FE Panel
Sluggo_Monster
EDIT: When looking at the panel, look for the long, red, "Pressure Differential Limit" placard above the Cabin Presure control/indicator.
Web Page
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NORJAK Forum
Here are some illustrations and photos of Manual Cabin Pressure Control, cabin pressure Indicator, and the FE's panel:
Cabin Alt.jpg is from the B-272 manual.
Manual Pres Cabin Contr.jpg is from the B-272 manual.
Detail of Instruments.jpg is a photo of the instruments you are looking for in the next photo.
727-SO-Panel_RED.jpg the Second Officer (or Flight Engineer) panel.
727-SO-Panel_RED.jpg is another photo showing the whole FE Panel
Sluggo_Monster
EDIT: When looking at the panel, look for the long, red, "Pressure Differential Limit" placard above the Cabin Presure control/indicator.
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
[/replyQuote
I think also there's some history where they don't want Tosaw to be right in any way. (don't know if he is, but there seems to be a bias against Tosaw's thinking).
That because Tosaw is as much an opionated A.. as I am and not too delicate about how he says it. He has the advantage of his education and his money, where as I am just an opinionated woman with dumb broad syndrome, without Tosaw's money to support my search.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
dy8coke 0
Thanks Sluggo,
That gage in on the upper part of the panel and fairly small, like Gregor said, they felt the pressure on their ears then the FE looked at the panel.
I was on submarines, and when we popped the hatch you could definitly feel it on the ears. Not quite the same as what an aircraft would feel.
As a side note, my dad was a FE on C-121's, C-118's and C-130's. He said that they would rais the cabin altitude and reduce the O2 bleed to put the passengers to sleep :-)
Also Sluggo, Victor airways are not just for VFR, In a IFR 172, you will not be assigned to a Jet route, but assigned to a victor airway. But you knew that ;-)
That gage in on the upper part of the panel and fairly small, like Gregor said, they felt the pressure on their ears then the FE looked at the panel.
I was on submarines, and when we popped the hatch you could definitly feel it on the ears. Not quite the same as what an aircraft would feel.
As a side note, my dad was a FE on C-121's, C-118's and C-130's. He said that they would rais the cabin altitude and reduce the O2 bleed to put the passengers to sleep :-)
Also Sluggo, Victor airways are not just for VFR, In a IFR 172, you will not be assigned to a Jet route, but assigned to a victor airway. But you knew that ;-)
snowmman 3
sluggo said:
"Also, [REDACTED] was going to check his records and let me know his source for a statement attributed to First Officer Rataczak during the sled-drop test. Rataczak was reported to have said that the "pressure bump" during the drop test "triggered a recollection" of the same sort of pressure bump, during the flight."
This is interesting, except Rataczak wasn't on the drop test, right?
We have no information that puts Rataczak on the drop test. Only Anderson.
There is also the rumor that Soderlind actually flew the test drop, which would be interesting because he had some medical issues that restricted his flying (not sure of exact year that kicked in).
We talked about how the drop test crew was funny....that the people on the drop test weren't the key people flying the plane.
Now the results of the drop test may have been discussed before or after, with Rataczak? Before, if during the test they were looking to confirm something Rataczak said. But I thought Anderson was the one who confirmed that it was similar, and he was speaking for the crew. Maybe not.
"Also, [REDACTED] was going to check his records and let me know his source for a statement attributed to First Officer Rataczak during the sled-drop test. Rataczak was reported to have said that the "pressure bump" during the drop test "triggered a recollection" of the same sort of pressure bump, during the flight."
This is interesting, except Rataczak wasn't on the drop test, right?
We have no information that puts Rataczak on the drop test. Only Anderson.
There is also the rumor that Soderlind actually flew the test drop, which would be interesting because he had some medical issues that restricted his flying (not sure of exact year that kicked in).
We talked about how the drop test crew was funny....that the people on the drop test weren't the key people flying the plane.
Now the results of the drop test may have been discussed before or after, with Rataczak? Before, if during the test they were looking to confirm something Rataczak said. But I thought Anderson was the one who confirmed that it was similar, and he was speaking for the crew. Maybe not.
snowmman 3
All this speculation about Rataczak's familiarity with low level ID of Vancouver, Portland, PDX, Columbia, Willliamette is all just speculation and anything is possible.
But I was thinking that if Rataczak had landed/taken off from PDX before, then he would have similar low altitude familiarity with the surrounding area.
So, yeah Sluggo, Rataczak may have meant Vancouver. He might have seen the Columbia, or he might not have. There's no way to prove anything. Any possibility is as good as another.
Anyone arguing that they really know what the couple of one-liners from Ckret mean, is really just guessing.
But I was thinking that if Rataczak had landed/taken off from PDX before, then he would have similar low altitude familiarity with the surrounding area.
So, yeah Sluggo, Rataczak may have meant Vancouver. He might have seen the Columbia, or he might not have. There's no way to prove anything. Any possibility is as good as another.
Anyone arguing that they really know what the couple of one-liners from Ckret mean, is really just guessing.
snowmman 3
Jo said:
"That because Tosaw is as much an opionated A.."
In reading all the DBC literature and news articles, I think it's fair to say Himmelsbach was the most opinionated of anyone. Then maybe Tosaw. Not sure of the order after that.
"That because Tosaw is as much an opionated A.."
In reading all the DBC literature and news articles, I think it's fair to say Himmelsbach was the most opinionated of anyone. Then maybe Tosaw. Not sure of the order after that.
Mr.Nuke 0
QuoteAll this speculation about Rataczak's familiarity with low level ID of Vancouver, Portland, PDX, Columbia, Willliamette is all just speculation and anything is possible.
Yes, but certain scenarios are more "possible" or likely than others.
Quote
But I was thinking that if Rataczak had landed/taken off from PDX before, then he would have similar low altitude familiarity with the surrounding area.
You are also taking Sluggo's reply slightly out of context. Georger specifically asked if they would have ever flown V-23. We can say with a fairly high degree of certainty the answer to that question is no. They were given the low altitude victor airway charts when the plane was on the ground at SEATAC. As Sluggo mentioned, they would likely be more familiar with the jet or "j" high altitude routes assuming they had done that route before, which is a fairly big assumption in itself.
And as for your comment, I wouldn't assume any previous takeoffs or landings would have given them much familiarity with the area. A pilot doesn't gain anything or do their job better by knowing the difference between Seattle and Vancouver. As has been mentioned, there really isn't a distinction between the two on the 71 charts.
This is compounded by the fact that the cockpit crew's workload increases significantly during the takeoff and landing phases of flight. There often isn't a lot of time to do sight seeing. Sluggo is giving you insight into how a generic pilot would think and act in the situation, not how you would.
snowmman 3
I had mentioned how the book "The Real McCoy" chronicled Karen McCoy's extensive involvement in the McCoy hijack, and wondered why she wasn't charged.
In the 1992 court case about the book, Karen McCoy testified in court that she did help.
I didn't purchase the full articles, but you get the idea. The final thing was that any movie made couldn't include certain allegations (minor sounding ones to me). But she said in 1992, finally, that she did help.
Deseret News, The (Salt Lake City, UT) - February 21, 1992
MCCOY'S WIDOW ADMITS HELPING IN '72 HIJACKING
A tale of air piracy, escape from a federal prison and a deadly shootout may also become a story of physical and sexual abuse.Karen McCoy, the widow of slain hijacker Richard McCoy, revealed for the first time Thursday her extensive involvement in her husband's 1972 hijacking of United Airlines Flight 855. During a daylong hearing in 3rd District Court, McCoy acknowledged that she bought her husband's parachute, helped him prepare his disguise, typed the...
Deseret News, The (Salt Lake City, UT) - February 21, 1992
IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD: POLICE AND COURTS
Salt Lake City Hijacker's accomplice: Karen McCoy - who is trying to prevent the sale of a book about her husband, the slain hijacker Richard McCoy - admitted to a 3rd District judge that she helped her husband prepare for the 1972 hijacking of a United Airlines plane, from which he parachuted over Provo.
BOOK ON HIJACK CAPER ESCAPES INJUNCTION WIDOW OF MAN IDENTIFIED AS...
$2.95 - Rocky Mountain News - NewsBank - Feb 22, 1992
During testimony Thursday, Karen McCoy contended the book and the ... Karen McCoy denied allegations in the book that she drove a getaway car in her ...
MCCOY'S WIDOW ADMITS HELPING IN '72 HIJACKING
$2.95 - Deseret News - NewsBank - Feb 21, 1992
Karen McCoy, the widow of slain hijacker Richard McCoy, revealed for the first time ... Those allegations are: Karen McCoy threatened to throw her infant ...
In the 1992 court case about the book, Karen McCoy testified in court that she did help.
I didn't purchase the full articles, but you get the idea. The final thing was that any movie made couldn't include certain allegations (minor sounding ones to me). But she said in 1992, finally, that she did help.
Deseret News, The (Salt Lake City, UT) - February 21, 1992
MCCOY'S WIDOW ADMITS HELPING IN '72 HIJACKING
A tale of air piracy, escape from a federal prison and a deadly shootout may also become a story of physical and sexual abuse.Karen McCoy, the widow of slain hijacker Richard McCoy, revealed for the first time Thursday her extensive involvement in her husband's 1972 hijacking of United Airlines Flight 855. During a daylong hearing in 3rd District Court, McCoy acknowledged that she bought her husband's parachute, helped him prepare his disguise, typed the...
Deseret News, The (Salt Lake City, UT) - February 21, 1992
IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD: POLICE AND COURTS
Salt Lake City Hijacker's accomplice: Karen McCoy - who is trying to prevent the sale of a book about her husband, the slain hijacker Richard McCoy - admitted to a 3rd District judge that she helped her husband prepare for the 1972 hijacking of a United Airlines plane, from which he parachuted over Provo.
BOOK ON HIJACK CAPER ESCAPES INJUNCTION WIDOW OF MAN IDENTIFIED AS...
$2.95 - Rocky Mountain News - NewsBank - Feb 22, 1992
During testimony Thursday, Karen McCoy contended the book and the ... Karen McCoy denied allegations in the book that she drove a getaway car in her ...
MCCOY'S WIDOW ADMITS HELPING IN '72 HIJACKING
$2.95 - Deseret News - NewsBank - Feb 21, 1992
Karen McCoy, the widow of slain hijacker Richard McCoy, revealed for the first time ... Those allegations are: Karen McCoy threatened to throw her infant ...
Mr.Nuke 0
QuoteWhen a pilot says we are 10 miles from Portland, I assume he means PDX. There is where the ATCs are, where the ILS is, and where the VOR is. (PDX also means the PORTLAND VOR/DME). The City of Portland is 4 miles SW of PDX (the airport and the VOR/DME)
Agreed to me that means they are 10 miles off of the VOR/DME.
Quote
I would be surprised if Tina had EVER been on V-23, and I would bet Rataczak, Scott and Anderson had NEVER been also. They were stationed in MN and passenger carrying aircraft don’t (usually) fly low altitude, VFR airways. They would however, probably be very familiar with J-1, J-126, J-5, and J-65.
I'll preface this by saying I'm not sure how northwest's pilot rotations worked in the 1970's, but if it is anything like today it is possible that crew A) had never worked with each other and B) had never flown that route. Like you said, none of the crew would have ever had any reason to be on V-23.
snowmman 3
QuoteQuoteAll this speculation about Rataczak's familiarity with low level ID of Vancouver, Portland, PDX, Columbia, Willliamette is all just speculation and anything is possible.
Yes, but certain scenarios are more "possible" or likely than others.Quote
I'm saying they're not.
You say certain possibilities are more likely? Explain.
It seems like rolling a dice to me.
You want me to agree that Rataczak didn't know anything about Vancouver or Portland, but that he did know something about the Columbia?
How does that make sense?
If he didn't know about Vancouver or Portland, then no matter what he said, it's a flip of the coin, guessing its accuracy.
How do you dial in "more likely" to something there?
(edit) Is there a quote about 10 miles from Portland? That would be good if so. I may have forgotten that one. Repost?
Snow Hi. some times we think in ancient terms. or just get side tracked like you. However some times there are those that need there paciphier. or there diapper changed. Still some of your comments are realy not propper and yet a lot are its hard to put you in your corner, The put downs are not cool to say the least if you would like. My wife says we can adopt you. you raise good questions and are very good at computers we are all prowd of you but please stop the put downs. Your still Invited to our wedding aniversevery on July 26th. Remember adoption is optional. Please be on your best behavior. I will answer your questions if they are without ridcule and continue to be so. Jerry
Slugo Has talked to Ralph and asked some very good questions. Which were answered. He also has some very good Ideas. Alot have already been researched.This is a very complexed case and has many unanswered questions. Where did he land, What was his ethnic back ground. Why did he do it. What was his experience. What was he going to use the money for.Guess what guys the answers we realy seek is. How to solve it. And the only way to do that is find the evidence and that is on the ground.Not in the air we have all been through flight plans. Landing . Zones Trying to figure out who said what and picked all that apart. Now Lets look at reality. It is a solvable case all that has to be done is to find evidence of where he landed. its obvious that he had to leave something at his landing site Whether it be a skull or just a piece of cloth. Something is there. and it is not in the flight path that was originaly searched or the collumbia river.So we all second guess the flight path. What does that do Nothing. Now lets look at other Info whether it be fact or not. Take what info we have about information not given at the time of the Hyjacking. and take the Info given later.Many mistakes were made Lets not make the same.Many of you have asked why I search the area's I do.Maybe its time to stop asking and realize that I have already asked all your questions and evaluated all Info.Talked to all involved .I've done most the test. Science can solve this case if Diatoms can be found on one of the 20 dollar Bills. But sorry guys thats it unless by some lucky chance some one comes across the landing site. This is why I search. I will continue to answer the questions you ask for one reason only. So you can all continue your quest, that will only end in the same conclusion that mine has and I can say I told you so. SO how about some help in the field and actualy get in the woods and search. I promise if you do you will have a chance of realy solving this case otherwise we have to wait on science or population housing growth. Jerry
snowmman 3
Thanks for the info Jerry.
No need to answer this post. No questions.
No need to answer this post. No questions.
377 22
QuoteAs a side note, my dad was a FE on C-121's, C-118's and C-130's
VERY COOL!!! Tell your Dad there is a surplus C 130A still flying with 3 bladed props. I have made a bunch of jumps from it five years ago (N131EC). I think it was made in 1958.
What model Connies did he fly? EC 121? C 121C? FEs really earned their pay keeping those turbo compound R 3350s running.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Yes. Jerry says H hs seen both the NWA and FBI
yellow, and Jerry confirms there is a third map -
I faield to ask: Is there a fourth map? A fifth map?
Etc!
Jerry didn't say there was a third map, or at least I didn't think he did.
If there's a third map, it could have been drawn by H. or Jerry, outside of the FBI investigation.
Jerry must have something he's using.
But it's unlikely the FBI has a third map.