DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Snowmman Yes I do.However it is nothing more than bad memeries for me.I realy don't like talking about it much. Lost to many good friends and I'm still loosing them . Due to agent orange cancer and suicide. Jerry

I offer condolences. Lots of bad things. I realize we talk about Vietnam a bunch here, but take heart that it's only related to Cooper theories. I know I have no place offering opinions on the Vietnam experience, and only post as someone reading history written by others, which is always full of inaccuracies.

But that's all I have. Better for me to read those, and try to understand, than not talk about it, or not write about it etc.

But do know that I appreciate your effort, and hope things are always a little better each day for you and your friends.

As July 4th approaches, I am reminded that freedom is not free.
Some upbeat good thoughts thrown your way.

[JerryThomas 0]

That is close to being correct However most of the team was lost.Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Thank You. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

People talking about getting first hand information.
Billy Waugh's email address is apparently (he posts it at numerous places on the web)
billywccn~AT~aol~DOT~com

(change the ~AT~ and ~DOT~ appropriately)

Someone can try to give him a shout. See if we can get some more info about Vietnam jumps etc.

[JerryThomas 0]

Yes I know. Jerry

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Sketches?????????

Any comments?

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

I'm assuming people have read all that's out there mentioning Waugh.

It's fair to ask why he's considered a SF hero. There's a lot.

However, it's fair to say, that of many profiles for a possible Cooper, he's a good fit for a profile.

I've attached a recent interview. It's interesting to read his point of views on SF operations and training. It's really interesting to think of Cooper musing in the same way. (planning etc).

His books are better, but not all of them are freely available on Google Books.

Maybe I can post some accounts of when he got shot up. He was involved with a lot of serious operations, with a lot of death dealt out on both sides.

I have a variety of questions and thoughts. But it's not really fair to post them. I'd rather ask Billy questions. Minimally we could find out a lot about Vietnam jumps.

I would think he would enjoy a sharp discussion on the Cooper topic, or just Vietnam.

read attached interview. (remember he's promoting his lectures/training/book at this time..roughly 2004?)

I will also post an account of an example event in Billy's career, just so it's obvious I understand the aspect of him that was the real deal.

[snowmman 3]

Note the US SF are embedded with South Vietnamese troops here, in 1965.

army account, from
http://www.history.army.mil/books/vietnam/90-23/90-234.htm

In July 1965 fighting took place near Camp Bong Son, Binh Dinh Province, II Corps, involving four Special Forces men and the 883d Vietnamese Regional Forces Company. The action bears mention because it illustrates the demands often made on Special Forces men in South Vietnam and reflects the considerable ability demonstrated by many Green Berets in combat. The following

Page 94

account was written by Major Paris D. Davis, then a captain, who participated in the action.

We had just finished a successful raid on a Viet Cong Regimental Headquarters, killing upwards of one hundred of the enemy. The raid had started shortly after midnight. We had four Americans and the 883rd Vietnamese Regional Force Company participating in the raid. After the raid was completed, the first platoon of the 883rd company broke and started to run just about the same time I gave the signal to pull in the security guarding the river bank. I went after the lead platoon, MSG Billy Waugh was with the second platoon, SSG David Morgan was with the third platoon, and SP4 Brown was with the fourth platoon. It was just beginning to get light (dawn) when I caught up to the first platoon and got them organized, and we were hit by automatic machine gun fire. It was up front and the main body of the platoon was hit by the machine gun. I was hit in the hand by a fragment from a hand grenade. About the time I started moving the platoon back to the main body, I heard firing and saw a wounded friendly VN soldier running from the direction of the firing. He told me that the remainder of the 883rd company was under attack. I moved the platoon I had back towards the main body. When I reached the company, the enemy had it pinned down in an open field with automatic weapons and mortar fire.

I immediately ordered the platoon I had to return the fire, but they did not—only a few men fired. I started firing at the enemy, moving up and down the line, encouraging the 883rd company to return the fire. We started to receive fire from the right flank. I ran down to where the firing was and found five Viet Cong coming over the trench line. I killed all five, and then I heard firing from the left flank. I ran down there and saw about six Viet Cong moving toward our position. I threw a grenade and killed four of them. My M16 jammed, so I shot one with my pistol and hit the other with my M16 again and again until he was dead.

MSG Waugh started to yell that he had been shot in the foot. I ran to the middle of the open field and tried to get MSG Waugh, but the Viet Cong automatic fire was too intense, and I had to move back to safety. By this time SSG Morgan, who was at the edge of the open field, came to. He had been knocked out by a VC mortar round. He told me that he was receiving sniper fire. I spotted the sniper, and shot him in his camouflaged man-hole. I crawled over and dropped a grenade in the hole killing two additional Viet Cong.

I was able at this time to make contact with the FAC, CPT Bronson and SGT Ronald Dies. CPT Bronson diverted a flight of 105's and had them drop their bombs on the enemy's position. I ran out and pulled SSG Morgan to safety. He was slightly wounded, and I treated him for shock. The enemy again tried to overrun our position. I picked up a machine gun and started firing. I saw four or five of the enemy drop and the remaining ones break and run. I then set up the 60mm mortar, dropped about five or six mortars down the tube, and ran out and tried to get MSG Waugh. SSG Morgan was partially recovered and placing machine gun fire into the enemy position. I ran out and tried to pick up MSG Waugh, who had by now been wounded four times in his right

Page 95

foot. I tried to pick him up, but I was unable to do so. I was shot slightly in the back of my leg as I ran for cover. By this time CPT Bronson had gotten a flight of F4's. They started to drop bombs on the enemy. I ran out again, and this time was shot in the wrist—but I was able to pick up MSG Waugh and carried him fireman style, in a hail of automatic weapon fire, to safety. I called for a MEDEVAC for MSG Waugh. When the MEDEVAC came, I carried MSG Waugh about 200 yards up over a hill. As I put MSG Waugh on the helicopter, SFC Reinburg got off the ship and ran down to where the 883rd company was located. He was shot through the chest almost immediately. I ran to where he was and gave him first aid. With SSG Morgan's help, I pulled him to safety.

The enemy again tried to overrun our position. I picked up the nearest weapon and started to fire. I was also throwing grenades. I killed about six or seven. I was then ordered to take the troops I had and leave. I informed the colonel in the C&C ship that I had one wounded American and one American I didn't know the status of. I informed the colonel that I would not leave until I got all the Americans out. SFC Reinburg was MEDEVACed out. The fighting continued until mid-afternoon. We could not get the company we had to fight. The enemy tried to overrun our position two more times. We finally got reinforcements, and with them I was able to go out and get SP4 Brown who lay out in the middle of the field some fourteen hours from the start until the close of the battle.

Major Davis received the Silver Star and the Purple Heart for his efforts in this action.

[snowmman 3]

occasionally I run into links for docs or copies of books that are interesting that I know you guys won't find, but reflect a broader view, more research. (i.e. books)

so will post

Online copy of the book
The Green Berets in Vietnam, 1961-71
By Francis John Kelly, Institute of Land Warfare (Association of the United States Army)
published 1991


http://www.history.army.mil/books/vietnam/90-23/90-231.htm

http://www.history.army.mil/books/vietnam/90-23/90-232.htm

http://www.history.army.mil/books/vietnam/90-23/90-233.htm

http://www.history.army.mil/books/vietnam/90-23/90-234.htm

http://www.history.army.mil/books/vietnam/90-23/90-235.htm

http://www.history.army.mil/books/vietnam/90-23/90-236.htm

http://www.history.army.mil/books/vietnam/90-23/90-237.htm

http://www.history.army.mil/books/vietnam/90-23/90-238.htm

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Sketches?????????

Any comments?

At least as close as any i've seen, i think. Ears look OK too, to my untutored eye.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I quoted a book of his as saying his height was 5'9"
the reference is here, 2nd paragraph, page 147
http://books.google.com/books?id=GdCKyGhie_QC&pg=PA147&dq=%22billy+waugh%22+five+foot

some confirmation:
The attached photo is him with a group of men in 1970.
He's in the center, no shirt staring at camera.

You can see some are shorter, some are taller. I think the 5'9"
is accurate

(edit)
This second picture from 1964 shows him smoking a cigarette

[snowmman 3]

Many aircraft as part of this mission.
Waugh flew as forward air control with pilot Major Alexander.

I thought it was a good account of a aircraft+ground force operation by SF. Account is Waugh's.
http://www.macvsog.cc/target_oscar-8.htm

Waugh's callsign here was "Mustang"
US aircraft shot down during the op: (which included B-52 bombers)
2 CH-46 heli transport
1 H-UID heli gunship
1 F4C Phantom jet
1 A-1E skyraider (prop)

Waugh flew back from Khe Sanh with "Mustachio" on a H-34 heli to rescue 3 vietnamese crew members (I believe they were from a crashed H-34 heli)

Another good write by B. Waugh, to get some of his frame of mind, is here: (from 2008)
http://www.ourexcellentadventures.com/2008/03/23/to-the-sf-guys-you-know-who-you-are-from-billy-waugh/

"I have never heard a Special Forces soldier say, when assigned a very difficult mission, “I am not going to do that,” for I have always heard the SF Team say, “Lets get it on, lets go.”"

Mustachio was not US. He was VNAF Pilot Dau Uy Nguyen Van Hoagn.
Read this about another amazing Mustachio exploit: (RT is recon team)

"Mustachio few on of the most remarkable chopper rescues in history in 1966. An RT had been hit at night and managed to slip away; but burden with several wounded, it seem certain the enemy would catch the team members before daylight. U.S. Hueys could’t fly in darkness, and neither were the Vietnamese H-34s supposed to, but Mustachio said he would give it a try. Since this is all but suicidal, he went alone, taking up his Kingbee without a co-pilot and doorgunner. Despite groundfire and complete darkness Mustachio found the team and got members out alive. “How he ever did it, I don’t know,” Scotty Crerar said. “It came out with 88 holes in it and the pilot’s thumb shot off. The aircraft never few again, but it got the team out.”

Mustachio later died in another SOG mission.

source: http://state-of-flux.blogspot.com/2005/07/let-them-participate-in-their-own.html
referencing John Plaster's book "SOG: a Photo History of the Secret War". Plaster did 3 tours. The opening pages of the book are good read:
http://www.amazon.com/SOG-Photo-History-Secret-Wars/dp/1581600585#reader Click/right arrow thru "First Pages" there.
Plaster bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Plaster or better: http://www.ultimatesniper.com/Docs/35.PDF ..It's interesting to see how different people's lives played out post-Vietnam.

My point: There are people labeled "heroes" where everyone knows their name because they're the historians, the storytellers. There are plenty of others, less well known.

It was a big war.

[snowmman 3]

I believe this account is from a 1-0 of RT Delaware.
from http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52378&page=6

Mentions the "indigenous" rucksack which I had mentioned before. This guy carried two knives. Folding, plus a big knife. Funny how pencil flares were standard gear too. PRC-25 radio mentioned.

"The rucksacks were "Montagnard striker" indig soft sacks". They carried 5 days of rations. Sometimes 10 day missions.

I like photos of the Montagnards and Nungs. (ST Alabama photo) I think it's not well understood how young some of those guys there were. I attached two random pictures of 'nards with some US.

Last pic is RT Hawaii

from the RT Delaware 1-0
MACVSOG generally had two elements;

a. reconaissance teams RT sometimes called spike teams ST. I've heard a differention made between an RT and an ST. One was heavier than the other. I never heard the differention when I got to FOB-2. We used ST up to about May 1968, afterwards RT. They teams were supposed to have 3 Americans and 9 indig, usually Montagnards at FOB-2. The RT could be broken up into a smaller force. We once went in with 2 Americans and 4 indig.

b. Hornet Force or Hatchet Force: a platoon size reaction element with 4 Americans and about 40 indig. They were to fight, not look.

c. In addition, there were other elements which were snatching NVA prisoners. They would carry AK's and walk the trails till they met an NVA patrol. You'll see RT Maine is so armed. I never saw a team go out armed like that.

You'll see the troops are remarkably light compared to today.

Commo was via one PRC-25. Each American carried a strobe and a couple of pencil flares and a small florscent orange cloth panel. We had some little emergency commo device to talk to a pilot but I never used it. Each American had a "Kat Code" with him used to encode voice commo with the relay sites. We communicated 3x a day. (I sometimes turned the radio off..didn't want to hear the kibbitzing). We were working on 10km sq grids labled "letter-number" ("X-3", "H-1") ...they would go ballistic if you went outside your grid. We had a map only for our grid (though once on a brightlight I carried a map all the way from H-1 over to Ben Het in case we had to exfil ourseles).

We carried a small section of rope and a D ring to make up a rapelling harness (which could be hooked onto a McGuire rig to let 5 men come out on 4 ropes if needed).

Missions were for 5 days although we once went on a 10 day mission down to the junction of Highway 96 (Ho Chi Minh Trail) and Highway 110 (Sihanuk trail) in Laos. We usually would run 2 missions a month, sometimes 3. But that depended on the weather. From May-September the rains came; it was really hard to get choppers over the Annamite Cordillera into Laos during that time. We'd fly from FOB-2 up to Dak To day after Day to await a break in the weather. After each mission we'd usually get 3-5 days off.

The rucksacks were "Montgnard striker" indig soft sacks (see photo of Yuk below). We had 5 days of rations..usually dry LRRP rations (just coming out); occasionally a can of c-ration peaches, and the striker "rice issue." I carried a standard Army poncho and a small indig ponch and a standard cammie Army poncho liner. At night, we'd rendevous (RON) very close to one-another. I would spread the big poncho on the ground, cover it with the liner, put the small poncho under the head and under the big one, fold half over me. I could sleep that way through the most pounding rain.

We carried a small pocket knife, usually a big knife (mine was a Randall), 4 to 8 grenades HE, some rigged with 30" or 1' time fuses which could be tossed behind if we were running. We carried several colors of smoke, each man usually had smoke. I carried several safety pins, a sewing kit, some rubber bands too...never knew when they would be needed. Always had insect repellent (great against leeches) and cough syrup. (Summer 68 someone banned codine cough syrup because grunts were using it to get high. It really put us in danger). water purification pills. Sometimes I carried Dextro-anphetamine. Only took it once next to the Ho Chi Minh trail and was awake for 3 days; never took it again. Two canteens. bandages and small first aid kit and a morphine shot.

The harness was interesting. Look at the RT Idaho photo and you'll see two are wearing WWII BAR belts. They were by far the most comfortable and everyone got them. CAR-15 mags fit sideways perfectly, 4 per pouch. there were 3 pouches on each side of the BAR belt with a connecting strap at the back. Sometimes the guys would cut off the back pouch on either side and have a canteen pouch sewn on in its place. I had my knife on the back strap. 1st mission coming out in Mcguire rigs (we called them "strings") I had a D ring hooked into the rig and it stretched and broke the back strap. My hand-made Randall fell 2,000'. Randall sent me another one which I still have...but, I just saw an identical knife on e-bay sell for $2,000.

The uniform at FOB-2 when on an operation was plain unadorned green jungle fatigues and boots. No markings. We usually had a green scarf around the neck, used to towel off and soaked in insect repellent it prevent leeches from crawling into the uniform. I also soaked the upper parts of my boots in insect repellent and the belt line. I wore my boots without socks and no T-shirt or underwear. We wore bounnie hats. I knew one yard who wore a helment (Johnnie..see Dahling's site) but he'd been hit in the head once and liked the protection. We carried a pair of gloves to use in rapelling or riding the ropes out of a tight LZ-hover hole.

The arm of choice was the CAR-15. It was great, you could write your name with it on full auto. We usually carried 16 20-round mags. We also carried M-79's (2). M-79'ers carried 30 rounds, mix of HE and Flechette. Some guys would saw off the stock and front barrel of a M-79, load a flechette round and hang it around their neck as an "ambush breaker." I thought this was a bit much. For prisoner snatch missions we'd carry a silenced STEN gun. Sometimes a silenced .22. We once carried a M-60 on a brightlight though. Some guys like the Swedish K but god-help you if you start to fiddle with it with the mag in; Jimmy marshall put 3 rounds into the club at FOB-2 once.

Hi-Standard Silenced .22: Originally made during WWII for OSS; 3,000 later made for CIA in early 1950’s. There are no originals on the market. They’re worth a fortune. I've seen some in Afghanistan. Good for killing guard dogs I suppose. I carried one on my first mission...Terry Dahling was the 1-0. NVA passed close enough to grab them by the ankles. I don't know what I'd have done had I shot somebody with that thing. .22 long rifle...good for 10' maybe?

[snowmman 3]

We mentioned Delta before, talking about radios, and how lots of people were doing different things, possibly unaware of jumps etc by others.

The SF structure changed over the years and can be confusing.
(like the CIA oversee at the start).
Here's a good short summary from a 1-1 RT Delaware

... there seems to be some confusion on what was macv sog and its relationship to 5th SFG. Here are some comments on the different operations Special Forces was doing in SE Asia:

1. CIDG: Civilian Irregular Defense Group: Indig forces raised, trained and led by USSF 5th SFG in “A” camps up and down VN in all 4 corps areas, the bread and butter of 5th SFG. It started when the 1st and 7th began sending teams to Vietnam about 1961 under JFK (Laos was also being fought by Special Forces until 1962 cease fire); SF teams were under the ops command of CIA I believe. 5th SFG moved into Vietnam about 1964? and put the SVN flag on their black flash. 5th SFG originally had several Hqs but in early 1965 set up in Nha Trang; 1st SFG from Okinawa still had tdy teams in country. Major battles raged around these camps, Lang Vei, Kham Duc, Ashau, Dak To, Ben Het, Plei Me, Duk Lap, Loc Nien…etc. The CIDG were known as “strikers” and wore tiger stripes. There ultimately were some 55,000 under arms, mostly minorities, Montagnards, Nungs, Cambodians, ete., for a pittance, 5% of the cost it would take to field the equivilant American forces. They were supposed to fight the VC but ultimately after Tet especially, took on regular NVA. (Comment: this is what SF was originally conceived to do - train and lead guerilla forces behind lines or train and lead indig CG forces. They key element was, however, the ability to interact with locals and train those troops; Modern SF has forgotten this, especially in Iraq an Afghanistan where they conceive themselves as sort of glorified recon elements; they don't train local troops and as such the US Army has lost a precious resource):
-- Here is a brief description of CIDG:
-- Here is Steve Sherman’s site, which contains maps and locations of all camps and names of every SF’er who served in each; far and away the best site on who did what, when and where for what team: http://www.specialforcesbooks.com/WIP.htm

2. Mobile Strike Force aka Mike Force: Super CIDG under command of 5th SFG. These were strategic reaction strikers, the equivilant of rangers. There was a battalion at Nha Trang (B-55) and a company at each “C” team. They were stong fighters. Duc Lap is their crowning jewel of a battle, when they took on an NVA regular army division and whipped them. Nui Ba Dien mountain was another. They were airborne qualified...regular troops almost:
--http://www.mikeforcehistory.org/timeline/default.asp?orderby=Date_Down&page=3&SearchFor=sf&SearchWhere=All

Lewis Buruss wrote a book about Mike Force. Buddy of mine, roommate from Bad Tolz, Mike Dooley, a cartoonist was killed with them. Frankly, they were bad A** MF’ers. But they could also posture (I always hated that "I'm badder than you MF'er" crap-it happened too often and the Disher outer was usually full of crapola); http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1187739398&searchurl=ds%3D30%26isbn%3D9780595165247%26sortby%3D13

Also Review this thread: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125381

3. Project Delta (B-52): Original recon element in SVN under 5th SFG command, after CIA gave up ops command over SF in 1964. Long range recon originally going cross-border but after 1965 dedicated to in-country ops. They could draw on a variety of resources and I think came under opscom of various divisions (but always reporting to 5th SFG Hqs). Project Delta was the predecessor to MACV SOG; Note the LLDB patch on the gate; SVN elements were in the know about Delta; Macvsog was totally isolated from SVN command structure:
-- http://macvsog.cc/special_projects.htm#SFD%20B-50%20Project%20Omega:
-- http://www.projectdelta.net/delta_history.htm

4. Project Omega (B-50), (B-53), Project Sigma (B-56): Long range recon and special projects going across the border. They are linked to macv sog in some way, but how their command structure shook out is a mystery to me; Steve Sherman would know. Its was my impression that they were subordinate to 5th SFG C/O. B-53 might have been a "shadow B-team" to cover the assignment of SF personel to macv sog (I really don't know). Among other things, they had South Vietnamese troops (or Chu Hoi's, N.Vietnames defectors) dressed as North Vietnamese Army walking the trails in Laos and Cambodia:
-- http://www.specialforcesbooks.com/B50.htm
-- http://macvsog.cc/special_projects.htm#SFD%20B-50%20Project%20Omega:

5. Project Gamma (B-57): Special Forces special intelligence gathering outfit under 5th SFG. They dealt with the Montagnard Liberation movement FULRO. Maj Terry operated out of Ban Don A233 and used elephants to travel to the Cambodian border (I have pictures of that): See Steve Sherman’s site: http://www.specialforcesbooks.com/B-57.htm

6. OPS-35 aka Studies and Observation Group aka MACV SOG: CCN, CCC, CCS: Staffed mostly by 5th SFG troops but not under 5th ops command. Ops into Cambodia were code-named Danial Boone and later Salem House. Ops into Laos were code-named Shining Brass and later Prairie Fire. I've forgotten what ops into the North were called.
-- For a summary, see Robert Noe’s site:
http://macvsog.cc/sog,_an_overview.htm

another poster commented:

AFAIK OP-35 was "just" a part of MACVSOG. SOG was divided into 5 branches: OP-31 Maritime Studies Division, OP-32 Air Studies , OP-33 Psychological Studies , OP-34 Airborne Studies , OP-35 Ground Studies Group.
Operations into North Vietnam where under the auspices of OP-34. They were responsible for training long-term agents and inserting them into NV and for the so-called STRATA (Short Term Roadwatch and Target Aquisition) teams.
OP-31 ran some covert maritime ops against NV's coastline.

also, another poster:

Re: Project Omega (B-50) and Project Sigma (B-56) and their relationship to macv sog, here is a good explanation. They were 5th SFG controlled projects running into Cambodia from Ban Me Thout up until about late 1968. They were then folded into Macv-sog Op-35 and became CCS in Ban Me Thout. In early November 1968 FOB-2, formerly controlled by CCN in Da Nang, got its own command, CCC. I'll speculate the reorganization, including the integration of Omega and Sigma into macvsog, happened at the same time.

[377 22]

Snow the stuff you are finding is riveting. Keep up the good work. The guts shown by the RTs and by many others including Mustachio is awe inspiring. I can only imagine how they felt when the US decided to pull out of Nam.

Do you think they mean carabiner when they say D ring in your prior post?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Snow the stuff you are finding is riveting. Keep up the good work. The guts shown by the RTs and by many others including Mustachio is awe inspiring. I can only imagine how they felt when the US decided to pull out of Nam.

Do you think they mean carabiner when they say D ring in your prior post?

377

I don't remember the D ring reference? Most of my cut and paste was not from jumpers, so yeah it's likely talking about carabiner.

There are lots of pics with the RT's having oval carabiners on both straps of their shoulder harnesses (rucksacks). Sometimes with a 2nd biner clipped into the first.

I've only seen one or two where they taped (black electrical tape) the biners. I think only the jumpers might have done that, to keep the biners from flipping around during the jump? The tape would add no strength..Maybe it was to keep the gate closed? since they didn't seem to have locking carabiners. Although I would think that wouldn't work well. I think the tape was maybe just to keep them from flopping a lot.

It may have been a personal thing on just the one or two pics I saw.

There were lots of oval carabiners. The indigenous ('nards etc) seemed to have some too (they got their gear from US though)

As a tip of the hat to Elfstone, that 1-1 for RT Delaware who posted the info I copied, here's a pic of him in Khowst, Afghanistan, 2008!
Pretty funny. I wonder if someone put up the Air America sign as a joke or ?? He obviously took the picture because of the funny Vietnam connection. (He was in Herat, Afghanistan also in 2007, 2nd pic)

Don't know his name, but maybe still a player in 2007. (he young in Vietnam) He said at that forum:


Well ... I am getting on; but can still shoot; and make up for lack of speed with trickness and understanding. Here's pics from Khowst (2008), Herat (2007) and from Ban Don A-233 (1967) (pre-macvsog). We can still contribute


(edit) Another good Montagnard photo from Elfstone (he's age 66 now). Some good looks at rucksacks and how light they travelled.

Here is a photo of (lets give the proper name) macv-sog, op-35, CCC (FOB-2 Kontum), Hatchet force aka Hornet force men on a deuce and a half. I like the photo for the arms they show. Also, Montagnards could flat fill up a truck; jacknola once saw a whole platoon on a tank.

[snowmman 3]

some more views of the rucksacks. (the stiff backs here make them look like the x-metal-framed Tropical Rucksack instead?? dunno)
Last is jungle picture and a heli "hover hole" ..i.e. "clearing" gives insight into what a 'nam jumper might have to deal with. Mentions flare usage.

(see the heli in the photo!)

Note these guys weren't jumpers. He mentions a rappel insert.

comments/pics by Elfstone at
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52378&page=8



photo 1
Last words for a departing team...very obviously from FOB-2 Kontum. Reenactors, take a look at the equipment the team is carrying; and that is for a 5 day mission! Pretty light by modern standards. Take a look at the weapons leaning against the Slick - AK's. Why? When did this start to happen? The guys aren't kitted up as NVA. So why go with the AK?

photo 2

Departure of a team-- don't know from where.Obvioiusly same team as #1 above:....the PSP should be a clue for someone; Note the Ak's...This must be CCS Ban Me Thout; edit: again though I have to wonder about the mountains in the background...might be the launch site at Dak To for FOB-2 Kontum; I think it was a dirt strip until at least Sept 1968...if psp was added..photo would have been taken subsequently...late 1968 or 1969?:

photo 3
Insert in Laos - hover hole: I have to wonder if that was my operation since it doesn't look like the Huey is landing..just hovering; ...small chance..but it is Summer 68 and it is FOB-2. Delaware went in on a brightlight in early August 1968 to rescue the remains of an RT left for 2 weeks without food because of weather. Their radio batteries had given out. As we passed over the ridges into Laos West of Ben Het, a pencil flare came up. it was the lost team, sitting starving on a high speed trail. Me, Jimmy and 4 yards rapelled into the jungle; the interpretor refused to go out of the chopper. Jimmy blew down some trees and we were all pulled out on strings 2 hours later....



(edit) Another photo of the young indig guys in RT Hawaii
and B-52 bombing craters in the jungle

[snowmman 3]

Here's a pic of a c-46 (unmarked) that was supposedly used to insert and resupply agent teams in North Vietnam.

Open side door.

2nd pic is a heli insert into North Vietnam (1968)

"STRATA (Short Term Roadwatch and Target Acquisition) team 93 over North Vietnam during a 1968 insertion "

(edit) For 377:
Nice pic of Radio Relay site Hickory. Some of the sites on top of these mountains/ridges/hills were just amazing..
great photo.

(edit) Hickory was secret NSA radio monitoring post, using state-of-the-art automated equipment to intercept enemy radio traffic.

[1969912 0]

If they taped their biners, it would be to keep the gate closed during heavy vibrations and/or to prevent the gates from being pushed open by something. An open gate is not only bad because what it's holding can pop out, but also because the device loses over half of its strength. Instead of being an oval, it becomes a "C" shaped piece of steel or Al. The gate has a notch at the non-hinged end that interfaces with a pin when closed and heavily loaded, making the thing act as a one-piece oval, in theory anyway (long story).

EDIT: Also, possibly, to keep the wrong things from getting caught in the biner (like lines), which is very likely if they're used to attach misc. gear for a jump.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

Thanks 1969912 about the biners.

Since I mentioned Hickory.

The NSA stuff might not be well known. NSA apparently had a Polaris II station at Hickory. NSA and SOG also operated a site in southern Laos, code-named Leghorn. I can't find much detail on the NSA gear. Site pics attached.

Apparently they also relayed traffic. Leghorn was also known as Golf-5.

"It was so high I could fire an M79 round at 45 deg. elevation and have time to take a drag or two off of a cigarette before I heard it explode"

The story of when Hickory was overrun by NVA is gut-wrenching. Led to at least one POW.

The Leghorn site is just jaw-dropping. Leghorn was held for five years.

The last pic is an amazing close aerial shot of Leghorn.


Located at YB 604-356 in southeastern Laos. The site was discovered by SOG Lieutenant George K. Sisler. What Sisler had found was a 1,000 meter peak with almost vertical sides, easy to defend. Sisler stated that the site could be used as a SOG radio relay site that would enable recon teams to maintain radio contact with their departing air support if an immediate extraction was needed. Sisler said "I am absolutely certain that I could stay on that rock indefinitely". Indeed, the SOG-NSA people managed to hold Leghorn for five years. SOG teams and NSA radio intercept people could monitor a tremendous amount of NVA radio traffic. From their perch on top of Leghorn they could hear NVA truck traffic moving down route 96, some six miles west of Leghorn and a major part of the Ho Chi Minh Trail network.

[snowmman 3]

from http://www.macvsog.cc/payscale.htm#PAY%20SCALE

this is a nice chart of basic pay scale for commissioned officers, warrant officers and enlisted, on July 1, 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Soldier of Fortune magazine did an article on MACVSOG in 1981

it's available (scanned) here:
http://www.macvsog.cc/sof_penetrates_secrecy_of_sog.htm#SOLDIER%20OF%20FORTUNE%20Penetrates%20Secrecy%20Surrounding%20Special%20Operations%20Group%20In%20S.E.%20Asia%20June%201981

I've attached a page that had a description of gear. There they say only the "indigeneous" (soft?) rucksack was used.

URC-68 was mentioned for radio

STABO rig with ordinary pistol belt. Must of been later than 1970 for this..???
Ah, here it mentions snap links attached for chopper lift out. STABO rig was made in Taiwan by CIA? Named for the two sergeants who designed it.


The gear list aligns with what the post kind of said.

(edit) D-rings mentioned here, in STABO description, 377
pictures at the link http://www.vietnamgear.com/kit.aspx?kit=661

developed May 1970?


Developed at the MACV Recondo School in Vietnam, the STABO Harness was designed to enable the rapid extraction of reconnaissance personnel by helicopter. Named after its inventors, Maj. Robert L. Stevens, Cpt. John. D. H. Knabb and SFC. Clifford L. Roberts, the harness was made from type-13 nylon and formed an X across the back. In order to be extracted the soldier simply snapped the helicopter’s extraction line bridle to the two shoulder mounted D rings. This was a significant improvement on the McGuire Rig, which was essentially a 100-foot mountain rope anchored to the helicopter with a loop at the end for the individual to sit in. Unlike the STABO, riding the McGuire Rig required strength and agility and it was consequently of little use in extracting the wounded.

Equipped with a standard pistol belt, the harness was also designed in part to replace the M1956 / M1967 Load Carrying Suspenders. The STABOs leg straps were folded up and secured by tape or rubber bands against the shoulder straps until needed.

The first production STABO was supplied by the Counter Insurgency Support Office (CISO), which procured 500 harnesses (at a cost of $5 each) for Special Forces in March 1969. After completing safety tests and revising their cost estimates down from $100 to $14.50 per unit, Natick Labs was instructed in May 1970 to procure 1,370 harnesses for use by Army recon units in Vietnam. Both the CISO and Natick models were produced in small, medium and large sizes. However, the Natick STABO had several enhancements, including: padded shoulders, adjustable leg straps and a permanently sewn in pistol belt.

[rdufokker 6]

This DB Cooper thread is the most adult ADD thread I've read. Can we go in any more tangents? I say end this thread and then start one that has a meaningful title, i.e. Covert Operations or Black ops or What's the best knife to gut someone with?

Irony: "the History and Trivia section hijacked by the D.B. Cooper thread"

[snowmman 3]

Quote

This DB Cooper thread is the most adult ADD thread I've read. Can we go in any more tangents? I say end this thread and then start one that has a meaningful title, i.e. Covert Operations or Black ops or What's the best knife to gut someone with?

Hi rdufokker.

I guess I don't understand your point.

You don't think Vietnam is related to Cooper?

Or are you saying things that interest rdufokker are not Cooper related?

Or ???

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

rdufooker said:

Quote

This DB Cooper thread is the most adult ADD thread I've read. Can we go in any more tangents? I say end this thread and then start one that has a meaningful title, i.e. Covert Operations or Black ops or What's the best knife to gut someone with?

I assume you used the personal pronoun “we” because you are such a frequent poster here on this thread. I did a search and found that, including the post above, you have made one post to this thread. So why is it that what we are discussing, things that we think are relevant to the solution of NORJAK, disturbs you enough to make you want to post about it?

I’m just wondering.

PS: I used to fly out of W17 (Knightdale - Raleigh East) a few years ago (’91 thru ’93).

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