DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

JO said: Night Halo's were done way before 1967 - I have this in writing in one of the reports - I have been looking for it for hours.

Orange said: Something tangible?! Well then Jo, please tell us - what report, who wrote it etc? .

377 said: Hope Snow stays around. The stuff he is finding is truly eye opening about what happened under our flag in Viet Nam. I want more. Every time I think I have found the gold nuggets he posts stuff I have never seen.
=====================


Someone tell me what is going on - how did I step on anyones toes? I am making alternate layman opinions. The things that Snowmman mentioned help me to remember the things I had. Orange this is the problem all of my stuff is printed material. That is why I was wading thru all those papers looking for the material that had the Night Halo's in it. I think it was in the Cuban Project - and articles about that - but I have to find the article.

I do outlines and make notes and references of where I got the info - all I wrote was Cuba - meaning it could be any one of 100's of articles I read regarding this. I know I should have done better record keeping - it is all here and in storage - it is just a matter of finding it and who the author was and if the material was credible.

John Kennedy authorized the aggressive covert operations in 1961. Zenith Technical Enterprises, Inc. was a CIA front. It is in the Mongoose files someplace,

I don't know why Snowmman got riffed at me - I honestly don't know. I was reading everything he wrote and absorbing what I could - I made some responses - not technical responses, but just ordinary everyday people kind of responses. I felt he was going someplace with all of this. Such as the concealment of all of those photos from VN that the government ordered destroyed. The recent CIA concealment that is in the media now - the Bush-era abuses.

The 8 yr old counterterrorism program and the Bush administration's failure to notify Congress. Feinstein said the CIA concealment broke the law. Doesn't she know the government has done this for decades? Maybe she should read this thread...and real all the things Snow has posted - she might be appalled to take action.

There were SOG members associated with individuals who the FBI supposedly looked at as Cooper. This involved NC and /or SC. I still have a very firm feeling that Cooper was covered up - Even if it was Waugh or Brader or Coffelt or Gossett or Christiansen - it has been a Cover-up.

The CIA has know all of this time who Cooper was - but they where powerless to do anything about it..because it meant exposing our own government actions during war time - the very things that Snowmman was making available to us with his post.

Sorry Snowmman, if my questions or posts seemed stupid to you. I am like the other ordinary people out here who have an interest in this and we are not all as knowledgeable and astute as you are and our questions and suggestions might seem trivial to you - but we have a right to ask. With so much going on with the recent exposures of what did go on in Vietnam what you are saying and posting is enjoyed by all who read the thread.

I did and still do not believe the National Geographics program is going to be unbiased due to the participation of one individual involved, because I have personally been a victim of his verbal and abrasive and prisoner of war tactics. I do not trust him because of that...and that is my right. If he publically calls me delusional or a liar on that TV program he is facing a major lawsuit...unless the TV program wants to give double time to the alternate story and theories such as those that Snowwman himself has proposed and that they spend money to investigate 2 of the former suspects that our FBI or others want to continue to cover up. There was much done to take the focus off of Coffelt and Weber - LOTS. Since the government knew Gossett and others were never a real suspect the FBI nor our own government did much to draw attention away from them knowing they would run their course.

The Government and CIA has realized today with the media sources available - there are NO LONGER ANY SECRETS. This is not bashing the FBI - because they are instructed what to do under certain circumstances by others of much higher authority in our government.

Snowmman we need you to counter the Team or whatever they call themselves.
Americans want the truth not only about Cooper, but about VN and JMWAVE and CUBA - until then our government was mostly out front - right or wrong. Jumpers played large parts in all of the wars since WW11. We need to know that history.

377 remember my saying Boeings were jumped out of before 1969 and I was right. I am also right about a prison with a picture of 3 men in jumpsuits and I am right about Halo jumps (or their equivalents) in 1962 regarding Cuba. I have the article that mention the 1962 jumps, but my printer was not working couldn't print the picture of the 3 jumpers - even Doug Pasternack couldn't find it the next wk. I am not delusional and I didn't imagine that picture of that story.

I found all of that in March of 2000.
I have since contacted the web site and a man who did one of the articles I did print. I was also researching the smoke jumper at that time frame - had only had a computer for 2 months. Most of these old web pages I pulled - some are no longer available nor is the same information.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

  Quote

If he publically calls me delusional or a liar on that TV program he is facing a major lawsuit...unless the TV program wants to give double time to the alternate story and theories such as those that Snowwman himself has proposed and that they spend money to investigate 2 of the former suspects that our FBI or others want to continue to cover up.

Jo,

You have used the fear of lawsuits to avoid disclosing evidence you claim to have and now you threaten "a major lawsuit" ??? Cut it out.

Even if Jerry calls you delusional on national television what real damage is done other than bruised feelings? Unnecessary ego driven lawyer fueled lawsuits are a cancer, a plague, a pestilence. Don't threaten it. Don't be part of it.

This country prides itself on constitutionally protected free speech. Jerry should be able to call you delusional if he believes you are. I can sue a lot easier than you can, yet I wouldn't sue Jerry if he called me a liar or delusional.

Roll with the punches Jo. Go with the flow. Cherish the First Amendment.

I disagree with your premise that government agencies knew who Cooper was and covered it up. That conspiracy stuff is very appealing because it can be used to fill in all the blanks, yet it is almost never factually correct.

Might Cooper have had ties to Spook agencies? Sure. Did they know he was Cooper and cover it up? Very very doubtful.

We are working on an enduring frustrating mystery, not a cover up. That's how I see it. That's how Occam sees it.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

  Quote

I am also right about a prison with a picture of 3 men in jumpsuits

Jo, about this elusive picture:

Jumpsuits can be ordinary coveralls. Did the picture show parachute gear? if so, how do do you know it was parachute gear and not some kind of pack used by ground fire fighters?

I have found zero evidence that state prisoners were recruited, trained or used as smoke jumpers. I am keeping an open mind, but so far no evidence has been presented to me to support your claim on this issue.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

  Quote

  Quote

I am also right about a prison with a picture of 3 men in jumpsuits

Jo, about this elusive picture:

Jumpsuits can be ordinary coveralls. Did the picture show parachute gear? if so, how do do you know it was parachute gear and not some kind of pack used by ground fire fighters?

I have found zero evidence that state prisoners were recruited, trained or used as smoke jumpers. I am keeping an open mind, but so far no evidence has been presented to me to support your claim on this issue.

377

ditto, i also looked.

Jo, when you find the report please let us know the references to look for.

no comment on the rest, for obvious reasons.

377, I don't believe I have ever threatened to leave. But there are plenty times when i just don't read posts by certain posters...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[airtwardo 7]

  Quote

  Quote

How is it even possible that these threads still exist? Man, I quit moderating like four years ago and they are STILL popping up! Amazing. God Bless You Paul Quade.

We fight them abroad so we don't have to fight them at home.

...stay quiet, stay low & don't bunch up!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[377 22]

  Quote

God Bless You Paul Quade.

Despite my dislike of censorship of any kind, I have to add my thanks to Quade for his tireless work here. It would be sooooooo much easier to shut the forum down permanently than to endlessly referee sandbox fights and issue time outs to unruly kids.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Ditto from Sluggo_Monster.

Thanx quade!

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Orange1 0]

Yeah, yeah, me too )

And I like the reality checks you have given us the past few weeks.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

  Quote

Roll with the punches Jo. Go with the flow. Cherish the First Amendment.

I disagree with your premise that government agencies knew who Cooper was and covered it up. That conspiracy stuff is very appealing because it can be used to fill in all the blanks, yet it is almost never factually correct.

Might Cooper have had ties to Spook agencies? Sure. Did they know he was Cooper and cover it up? Very very doubtful.

We are working on an enduring frustrating mystery, not a cover up. That's how I see it. That's how Occam sees it.

377

No Need to go after anyone - I am crying with joy and hope the information I recieved is NOT another false lead. I want to shout to the top of my lungs - it is over and done. I could never pull away from the Coffelt connection regardless of the little information available on Coffelt.

I have talked about Mouse and the Roach (there is another spelling) and others since the very beginning in 1996. NOW it is all connected - thanks to this forum and especially to Snowmman and the hard work of so many who are not in the forum for their hard work. Today we made all of the connections and they are verifiable.

I am over-come with JOY and the sense that my struggle was NOT for NOTHING. Duane L. Weber aka John C. Collins WAS DAN COOPER. I will come back and make my corrections I am crying so hard, but they are HAPPY Tears. I need to go get some cigarettes (had been quiting) to calm myself down. The evidence just fell right out of the sky - OMG!.

It is Finally over! Hopefully Quade will leave the thread open for the ending or if he does shut it down he will himself make a finally admendment to the thread - telling what will become public in the near future.

Maybe there was more to that "Dream" last week. Duane returned to give me what I thought was a warning - maybe it was to really to say Good-Bye and letting me the "Truth" was on the way.
Snowmman whoever you are - thank you from the bottom of my heart. Your friend has my contact number and I would really love to talk to you as I cannot disclose in specifics what has JUST happened.

"Spook agencies authorized by our own government?" There are those who want this thread closed BEFORE the National Geographics airs because this is the final attempt by "those who be" to dispurse any hope that Cooper survived. They are hoping to end the Cooper Saga with the program and cut off any source anyone might be able to contact with verifiable knowledge. There are many who have contacted the FBI in the past with this SAME information - and never where replied to. Just as they ignored me until they learned I was going public in 2000.

Better ask yourself "WHY"! When any lead goes a certain direction - the FBI ignores it - they are under ORDERS to do so.

Maybe I am wrong but this DREAM TEAM is supposed to be [RED]"the project that TAPs a LID on the Cooper Case" so that the FBI can say "Cooper died - Case Closed".[/RED]

Quade, don't let that happen - the things I have been waiting for are here and IF this thread is closed we will NOT have a way to get this public to people that matter. This thread has been instrumental in closing this case and I don't mean the Dream Team. The forum has actually provided the avenue that led to recent information.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

  Quote

Duane L. Weber aka John C. Collins WAS DAN COOPER.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. We are waiting Jo.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

  Quote

Other people in the past have contacted the FBI regarding what has been recently exposed and been ignored. Better ask yourself "WHY"! When any lead goes a certain direction - the FBI ignores it - they are under ORDERS to do so.

Jo,

You are using conspiracy theories to fill in blanks. Resist the temptation.

The FBI does ignore a lot of contacts purporting to have Cooper clues. I think it is because they are busy with more pressing matters and consider the tips to be of low potential value in solving NORJACK.

I am not an FBI booster, far from it, but I do not believe the FBI is under orders to prove Cooper died on the jump or to suppress contrary evidence. They'd love to solve the case as much as any of us including you.

How do I know this? I don't, but it is far more likely than your scenario involving conspiracies and coverups. I am just betting the odds here and using Occam's razor.

I really do hope you have found resolution regarding the msytery around your late husband Duane and peace of mind but when you start mentioning coverups and orders to suppress evidence I worry that you are chasing phantoms not facts.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I concur with 377. I avoid conspiracy theories like the plague. I hate them with a passion - unless there's actually more than just "could" (ie, "must").

Occam's razor could serve pretty much everyone on this thread, but most fall prey to conspiracy level thinking (may not subscribe to an actual conspiracy, but rather a chain of logic so convoluted that it resembles a conspiracy).

Here's a parable: a guy sets out to prove his wave theory. But an experiment doesn't hold up the theory. The guy says the experiment was flawed, and says the fact that the experiment didn't hold up proves it.

Those types would have run in circles for a hundred years and never would have listened to Einstein's particle hypothesis because their eyes were never opened when the evidence disagreed with them.

Regarding the FBI wanting to solve the case: it cannot be solved. Only inductive reasoning could lead you to the most probable events, but when you're begging the question, it's sort of hard to expect to arrive at any sort of logical conclusion.

And if the conclusion just so happens to conflict with reality, they will NEVER reach a logical conclusion even if Quade keeps the board up until we all die. This is why I wrote the parable about the guy not willing to listen to any sort of particle hypothesis.

It's precisely how I see some key players in this mystery.

[georger 256]

  Quote

I concur with 377. I avoid conspiracy theories like the plague. I hate them with a passion -

In your 9-Solutions I find references to Palmer's work.
Have you read the Palmer report?

What is the basis for your "pre 1971 dredge layer" ?
Did you invent that on your own?

Rather than avoiding conspiracy theories, you appear
to have invented one - any explanation for that?

[skyjack71 0]

  Quote

  Quote

I am also right about a prison with a picture of 3 men in jumpsuits

Jo, about this elusive picture:

Jumpsuits can be ordinary coveralls. Did the picture show parachute gear? if so, how do do you know it was parachute gear and not some kind of pack used by ground fire fighters?

I have found zero evidence that state prisoners were recruited, trained or used as smoke jumpers. I am keeping an open mind, but so far no evidence has been presented to me to support your claim on this issue.

377

The guys in that photo had on parachutes not just jumping attire.
It mentioned jumptraining for these cons who volunteered and it even gave their names...it was a very short article. They had volunteered, but I do not know if the program ever got beyond that...it was definitely Folson or SanQuentin.

I corresponded with a San Quentin Historian, but he also found nothing. Maybe God playing games with me in 2000. It was March of 2000 and was after I had my altercation with Ralph Hope the FBI agent - who told me UN-truths even as I held government paper work stating the contrary...regarding some pertinent facts about Weber.

I found little about Folsom.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Jo,

I have really searched a lot on the prisoner smokejumper thing and found nothing. Ground crews yes, smoke jumpers no. Smoke jumper history is richly documented, yet no mention of prisoner smokejumpers. None of the retired smoke jumpers I contacted had ever heard of such a thing. If there are photos of Folsom or San Quentin prisoners wearing smokejumper rigs, then it obviously went beyond just an idea. If it was operational, there should be historical evidence. You say you have seen a photo and a short article, but nobody else can find it. All I can say is keep looking if it is something you had and have just misplaced.

I have actually been inside San Quentin and Folsom quite a bit when I was doing pro bono legal work for prisoners. I would not choose any of those inmates for a skydiving load. They are not dependable and are prone to escape. You don't get sent there for shoplifting, at least not before the three strikes law was enacted. Most Folsom and Q inmates are hard core recidivist criminals. Why on Earth would they be used for a smoke jumper job that typically has way more non criminal applicants than open slots?

If you have found proof that Duane was Cooper post it. No teasing now, we have seen that too often from you. If you can't share it, then it doesnt exist in my book.

Fame and fortune awaits anyone who solves NORJACK. If you solved it, then claim your glory Jo. Don't use conspiracy theories to justify withholding evidence. Fresh air public disclosure is the best defense against any efforts to squelch truth. Air it out or it will justifiably be ignored as a tease by everyone including me.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 256]

  Quote

I concur with 377. I avoid conspiracy theories like the plague. I hate them with a passion - unless there's actually more than just "could" (ie, "must").

Occam's razor could serve pretty much everyone on this thread, but most fall prey to conspiracy level thinking (may not subscribe to an actual conspiracy, but rather a chain of logic so convoluted that it resembles a conspiracy).

  Quote

:

I fear you are a moralist and a 'bag man', not a
Safecracker after all! Because, your own 9-Solutions
is the most convoluted piece of incomprenhensible
tripe I have read in a long time.

What IS your problem?




Here's a parable: a guy sets out to prove his wave theory. But an experiment doesn't hold up the theory. The guy says the experiment was flawed, and says the fact that the experiment didn't hold up proves it.

Those types would have run in circles for a hundred years and never would have listened to Einstein's particle hypothesis because their eyes were never opened when the evidence disagreed with them.

Regarding the FBI wanting to solve the case: it cannot be solved. Only inductive reasoning could lead you to the most probable events, but when you're begging the question, it's sort of hard to expect to arrive at any sort of logical conclusion.

And if the conclusion just so happens to conflict with reality, they will NEVER reach a logical conclusion even if Quade keeps the board up until we all die. This is why I wrote the parable about the guy not willing to listen to any sort of particle hypothesis.

It's precisely how I see some key players in this mystery.

Rather than "precisely seeing key players in this mystery" why not learn some logic and set theory
and actually fulfill one ambition in your life.

• Quote

[377 22]

Georger,

Be nice. I don't recall Safe insulting you. Why insult him?

How are your calves doing? Work any DX these days? Sunspots are on the rise.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 256]

  Quote

Georger,

Be nice. I don't recall Safe insulting you. Why insult him?

377

I knew you would say this, not knowing the difference.
If we are going to allow people to bandy around words
like logic, equation, etc then the least we can do is
at some point give an honest appraisal, especially if the student continues to come forth with more moralisms passing as modus ponens.

I mean shouldn't "Safecrackers" at least know what a
"safe" looks like and be held to that standard? It's
a little odd to have safecrackers flipping toilet lids
with burglar tools and nobody say anything .... ?

Or this is the DB Cooper Area Development Centre
Forum.

Shouldnt an auto mechanic at least know which end
the motor is at?

How far do we dumb this forum down and still keep
a straight lying face?

I mean Safecracking has been coming here for a
long time, in spurts, bestowing his knowledge,
expertise, and wisdom from on High. He refuses
to engage in common discussion. He could refute
his own arguements, if he cared. Rather we are left
having to move ten tons of dinosaur dung each time
he comes to pontficate. For those who dont know
the difference its ENTERTAINMENT. For those who
know the difference, its unsettling.

I asked him if he had read the Palmer report.
He talks about Palmer as if he has, but he wont say.
Do you know? Maybe you and Safe could team up
and explain his "9-Solutions".

Its not being mean to ask: HAVE YOU READ THE
PALMER REPORT! WHERE DO YOU GET "PRE 1971
DREDGE LAYER" from?

[377 22]

Georger,

I see all your points. It sounds like you have been through the rigors and hazings of peer reviewed research. Perhaps you have been on a PhD commitee or been a journal reviewer. It isn't a nicey nice process. I know that.

Still, you can get the message across without using words like "tripe". That's all I was trying to say.

73,
377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Hey Safe, nice to see you around again.

Jo, I've lost count of the number of times you claim to have "proof" of something. Let's see it. In fact if it has fallen into your lap and is all verifiable as you say... what are you waiting for?
Still waiting for reference on that report you claim to have by the way.

377 still being the voice of calm & reason round here...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[quade 4]

Not that's it's one of your ambitions, but it seems you've learned little in the last few weeks. Not that I can expect you to change what may be your habitual way of writing to people, but if it continues, then by all accounts we may just have to live without yours.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

georger,

Wouldn't you be surprised if ol' Safe worked on the data used in the Palmer Report (as a student)?

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[georger 256]

  Quote

Georger,

I see all your points. It sounds like you have been through the rigors and hazings of peer reviewed research. Perhaps you have been on a PhD commitee or been a journal reviewer. It isn't a nicey nice process. I know that.

Still, you can get the message across without using words like "tripe". That's all I was trying to say.

73,
377

Safe says in his 9-Solutions:
"The reason why Palmer is in dispute is because those with some brains know that he absolutely must be wrong for their hypothesis to hold any kind of merit."

If that isnt prejudicial I dont know what is. Safe is
appealing to "brains" and if that isnt a put-down
I dont know what is, right in the heart of his analytical
work. Safe is of course referring to ... Jerry Thomas.

The problem with Safe's reference above is it turns out
to characterise his whole work. His work is something
a rank amateur would do and yet I can only assume
he is passing this off as some kind of scholarly work?

Laying on hands and Judgements is not formal logic.


I think I know what Safe has in mind. Safe is trying
to suggest a method for sorting and analysing evidence, inferentially. But his application severely
flawed and full of opinions & suppositions like:
"The reason why Palmer is in dispute is because those with some brains know that he absolutely must be wrong for their hypothesis to hold any kind of merit."

I tried very early to suggest 'inferences are no better
than the suppositions which support them' but Safe
never replied. I now believe Safe did not reply because he literally does not know the difference to be able to respond, as a practical working matter.

Safe needs to build a logical chain which is an actual
chain of logical inferences, starting at the beginning
(not in the middle), and work from there if is he going
to rely on Logic as his formal model. Otherwise he would be better to use Ven Diagrams or something
similar ... because otherwise I seriously doubt anyone here will even pay any attention to it.

All criminal cases face the task of organising evidence.
There are established models for doing that. Maybe
Safe could use one of those models and start at the
beginning, if this really is his ambition.

In the case of Jerry Thomas and his beliefs, it is not
a matter of "brains" as Safe suggests, but something else. Safe might learn something from exploring that
rather than demeaning Jerry Thomas.

Finally, Safe might do better if he picked a small
aspect of the Cooper case and tried to analyse that only (inferentially), vs trying to bite off the whole case.

Most good science is built from the bottom up,
inductively, not deductively ... from the middle out!

[377 22]

  Quote

Most good science is built from the bottom up,
inductively, not deductively ... from the middle out!

Can't argue with that statement Georger. Just try to keep the personal attacks out of your critiques. You are right. Bad science deserves no slack. It doesn't , however, have to be attacked with flame throwers or daggers.

Do you think Tom K is doing good science? Snow doesn't think he has the qualifications to do good science, but I can't reach a conclusion until I see the design of his research and the results of his work, which has gone completely dark.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

I am awaiting Jo's replies to my challenge. I just won't be swayed by any excuses for not publishing her findings.

If you fear government control of information Jo the best thing to do is expose everything. No PMs, no private dialogues, not until you put forward your evidence. Tyranny loves secrecy.

Big claims (Duane was definitely Cooper) and no proof is just a tease Jo. You need to do a lot better than that. Air it out.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.