DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

This map (attached) is taken from the mia compilation on Strohlein, but it shows the marked area of roughly where Waugh's team jumped. (remember, at night, in the rain)

from
http://taskforceomegainc.org/S176.htm

they have the team assignments as:
Sgt. Major Billy Waugh, team leader
SSgt. James "J. D." Bath, assistant team leader and baseman
Sgt. Jesse Campbell, rifleman
SSgt. Madison A. Strohlein, rifleman

Summarising the training:
"put through refresher training on Okinawa; they practiced for an additional month at Long Thanh, South Vietnam. This in-country training included 10 jumps from Huey helicopters and C-130s, 4 night HALO jumps and a final exercise in War Zone D, north east of Saigon."

Another bit of trivia, I read an account of static lining from helicopters in Vietnam (Montagnards). Evidently they would use the triangular mount they used for the STABO rigs, on the heli. Just attach, and sort of jump out while sitting on the floor of the heli.

I guess there were a lot of parachute operations, a lot of indigeneous.

[snowmman 3]

(edit) Corrected my first post: it was Hooper's brother Bill.

I didn't know Hooper's brother had flown FAC in Vietnam. Cessna Bird Dogs.
I guess maybe Hooper could tell us a lot. But fat chance! Gotta buy his latest book instead.

http://www.jimhooper.co.uk/

youtube promo here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg7ceDs39-A

I guess the following is a review of the book

"Jim Hooper's latest book, A HUNDRED FEET OVER HELL, puts you in the cockpit of what could be called one of the most dangerous flying jobs in history: forward air controllers in Vietnam.

What makes the book extraordinary is that the pilot Jim profiles is his brother, and you get a story only a brother could weave, one that gets to the soul of an individual, and has the hairs on the back of your neck standing up.

Bill Hooper flew Cessna Bird Dogs, slow, unarmored, virtually unarmed, and always within range of a determined enemy that eventually won that war.

His mission was directing artillery and air support for Marines and Army personnel in contact with Vietcong and North Vietnamese Army regulars. A lot of missions and a lot of being shot at.

His unit, the Catkillers, flew below the mountain tops, low over the jungle, at night, in monsoon downpours, into the DMZ and even North Vietnam, getting far less notice than their jet brethren or the helicopter pilots who became synonymous with Vietnam.

Jim allows the men who were there to tell their own stories, taking us from his brother circling just above a fierce battle, to the company commander directing his troops in the firefight, to the grunt in a bomb crater not sure if he is going to live to see tomorrow.

For anyone who wants a great story, who wants to learn about another aspect of the Vietnam War, or wants to read about a hair-raising aviation arena, A HUNDRED FEET OVER HELL has it all."

[BruceSmith 3]

If I recall my conversation with Cossey correctly, he said his NB 8 was a hard, right-hand outward pull. He also said the pull handle was tucked into the rig and would be hard to find.

Bottom line, Cossey said he thinks DB was a no-pull and cratered.

However, Tosaw writes that Tina reported that DB Cooper examined the chutes, including the rigging cards. Again, if I recall Tosaw correctly, he indicates that Cooper was reassured somehow seeing Cossey's signature.

I'll double-check this.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Bottom line, Cossey said he thinks DB was a no-pull and cratered.

Cossey may be right!
Be interesting to ask Cossey "Could anyone have survived using that rig? Who?"

[georger 255]

Quote

If I recall my conversation with Cossey correctly, he said his NB 8 was a hard, right-hand outward pull. He also said the pull handle was tucked into the rig and would be hard to find.

Bottom line, Cossey said he thinks DB was a no-pull and cratered.

However, Tosaw writes that Tina reported that DB Cooper examined the chutes, including the rigging cards. Again, if I recall Tosaw correctly, he indicates that Cooper was reassured somehow seeing Cossey's signature.

I'll double-check this.

Just read all the old posts - should take about a week.

[georger 255]

Quote

Quote

Bottom line, Cossey said he thinks DB was a no-pull and cratered.

Cossey may be right!
Be interesting to ask Cossey "Could anyone have survived using that rig? Who?"

You seem to be missing a basic point made over and over by the old timers. HARD PULL on those old
chutes was RELATIVE. Let me draw a comparison for you so you finally "gEt it".

When America was rural, everyone went to country
schools. Pot belly coal fired stoves. Everyone had
soot on them. Just a fact of how things were and
how technology was. Life was "hard" by modern urban standards. Cars could only do 25mph at
max on the few roads that existed... most of them board plank roads - clatter clatter clatter.

Old NB6 chutes overstuffed with an NB8 canopy
equals = = = = = = = HARD PULL. Hard pull was
taken for granted by those in that generation. Most
chutes packed by whoever were hard pull. There
were few fancy-dancy-artsy-fartcy sky diver clubs.
Most people learned to parachute in the military if
at all. HARD PULL was relative and often to be
expected.

So, conclusion: HARD PULL must be judged generationally. To you and fellow neo-zoom-weavies
from the Gen-X flostum generation club, HARD PULL would be a bad thing. You probably would die. HARD PULL to Jerry and Cossey and others, the real men, would be nothing - expected, dealt with, the normal course of events as old parachutes go.

So, when you are judging Cooper "scientifically" do
damned-well need to take into account the possibility
of a guy who learned the old way, knew NB6's and
NB8's and the like, and maybe had even jumped off his barn with Grandma's quilt over his head... into
the straw pile, as a kid. Because IF Cooper was in
his mid to late 40's then the foregoing is a distinct
possibility. The same goes for any possible military training - old school. Cooepr had never heard or seen DIGITAL when it comes to his world and parachutes of HIS TIME, and his time is all that
matters here. You wont find Cooper at WALMART!

Have I made my point?

Have I made my point well?

Do you have any questions?

[snowmman 3]

hey i'm just a whuffo, georger, but that was the funniest post in this thread in a long time.

(edit) Poynter mentions old-time specs (dating to 1949) of 22 lbs "to cause the positive and quick functioning of the pack opening device"
http://books.google.com/books?id=BKTuTXrXQu0C&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=poynter+22+lbs&source=bl&ots=n_qpxo8K-s&sig=ld_RSN3tsrqoqx-Xm1nKeYykzXM&hl=en&ei=4ZlmSt7AKJGOtAO-isT0Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1


(edit) Georger: it's only old folks in tight pants who go to Walmart. The digital age you're so antsy about: they don't go there. Try again!

[snowmman 3]

Good Air Force doc here from 1983

"Human Strength Capabilities for the Operation of Parachute Ripcords and Riser Releases"
63 pp
You can get the pdf here
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA138328&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

Summary on page 5 is good
Military Specification MIL-P-6645H, "Parachutes, Personnel, General Specification for," prescribes a 27 pound force limit to pull a parachute ripcord.

They measured what males and females could do, under test conditions, with one and two hands. They said males could exceed 27 lbs with two hands.

However based on their testing, they said:

"It is recommended that the 27 pound limit should not be increased and that the Air Force continue teaching the two-hand pull for deploying a parachute"

The test is pretty controlled, not real. See page 60.

(edit) The Bibliography on the last page is interesting..looks like they used FM Telemetry in 1973

a paper
"Determination of Parachute Ripcord Pull Forces during Free-Fall: Physiological Studies of Military Parachutists via FM Telemetry - IV."
Aerospace Medicine 44(10); 1164-1168, 1973

[georger 255]

Quote

hey i'm just a whuffo, georger, but that was the funniest post in this thread in a long time.

(edit) Poynter mentions old-time specs (dating to 1949) of 22 lbs "to cause the positive and quick functioning of the pack opening device"
http://books.google.com/books?id=BKTuTXrXQu0C&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=poynter+22+lbs&source=bl&ots=n_qpxo8K-s&sig=ld_RSN3tsrqoqx-Xm1nKeYykzXM&hl=en&ei=4ZlmSt7AKJGOtAO-isT0Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1


(edit) Georger: it's only old folks in tight pants who go to Walmart. The digital age you're so antsy about: they don't go there. Try again!

Not sure when youw ere at Walmart last! I see
most young married broke kids there trying to
get by! You however probably prefer credit cards
and bailouts ... and fuck the economy and everyone. You're special. O'Dumba loves you!

There seem to be a whole bunch of things you just dont know about, in life. Oh well...

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman once again he did not think he would get the money or the chutes it was a shock to him that he got anything at all.This is why he was so supprised when he got anything at all.We must remember that this was before the terrorist days. The simple fact that it worked for him started the skyjacking era, for ransom and political purposes. Known fact. One more thing second guessing my comments is good Thank You .Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Duane was left handed. Was Cooper No he was not all reports indicate cooper was right handed.Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Snowmman once again he did not think he would get the money or the chutes it was a shock to him that he got anything at all.This is why he was so supprised when he got anything at all.We must remember that this was before the terrorist days. The simple fact that it worked for him started the skyjacking era, for ransom and political purposes. Known fact. One more thing second guessing my comments is good Thank You .Jerry

Jerry: We could go down the track of analyzing the prior hijacks and what the hijackers got or didn't get, but I thought we did that already. (edit) for instance: Cooper wasn't the first to demand money.

You've shifted your thesis. I was asking why it would be a suicide mission if he didn't expect to get anything. That would just be a "lock-me-up" mission. To die, you need a way to do it.
Do you think Cooper thought he'd get a parachute? Or was he going to just jump out the door if he didn't get anything?

I don't follow the suicide mission theory, coupled to not expecting to get anything.

I can believe suicide theory, if he expected to get at least a parachute. I can picture the idea of suicide, leaving it up to fate/chance..sort of a passive suicide...quite self-affirming, I would think, if you survive.

(edit) Jerry I must be misunderstanding you. Cooper didn't start the skyjacking "era". Not by a long shot. What exactly do you mean? I've posted on historical precedents way back in the thread, and notable hijacks before Coopers. I'm surprised: it sounds like you're talking about some of the common myths?

[snowmman 3]

Georger:

Yes. Everything you think about me is exactly correct.
And more. And more.
And less. And less.

Is that good?

[JerryThomas 0]

Your write in one respect. However why would you request things that you were not sure you would get and then be surprised when you recieved it. Cooper used road flares to hyjack this aircraft. Had the stewardesses Known what road flares looked like they would not have been so alarmed.Still the fact that someone would attempt to use this tactic was very alarming and set off chaoes aboard the aircraft.This in its self produced panic. Jerry

[377 22]

Quote

You seem to be missing a basic point made over and over by the old timers. HARD PULL on those old
chutes was RELATIVE. Let me draw a comparison for you so you finally "gEt it".

I too got a big chuckle from your post Georger.

A hard pull for a commie liberal is just another routine deployment for a real man, one who surely wouldn't have voted Democrat in the last election.

Having experienced two REALLY hard panic inducing pulls on surplus gear in the late 60s, I now know that the crusty old Republican rigger to whom I bitterly complained correctly analysed the problem. He told me: "Kid, maybe you need to work out more."

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Not sure when you [Snow]were at Walmart last! I see most young married broke kids there trying to
get by! You however probably prefer credit cards
and bailouts ... and fuck the economy and everyone. You're special.

I am no longer Snow's hired publicist/PR hack Georger. Michael Jackson's man took my job.

I have, however, met Snow and you really have him all wrong. I don't expect you to believe me. His posts give few clues to the real Snowmman.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

However, Tosaw writes that Tina reported that DB Cooper examined the chutes, including the rigging cards. Again, if I recall Tosaw correctly, he indicates that Cooper was reassured somehow seeing Cossey's signature.

I wish we had corroboration for the rigging card inspection claim. It would tell us a LOT about Cooper's parachute knowledge.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

You know what I really like about this thread (pause. you know it's going to involve a Orange1 reference)

I imagine Orange1 contemplating this thread with one part of her brain, and the world economy at the same time, binning it..US. China. Japan. Brazil. Argentina. Slovenia. etc..All brimming with energy. Some negative, some positive...
seeing the generational divide (actually just a taste of it...I by no means represent the youngest generation)..the cultural divide, the etc. divide, in the United States.

Seeing Hooper, who still apparently can drum up a shoot-em-up loving crowd. War is good, although I would think it would rankle Orange1 seeing Hooper carpet-bag into Africa to get his stories to make a living off of.

Back to the US representatives:
And we just have white people posting here! Probably upper middle class, although if anyone wants to plead poverty, go for it. Imagine if we really had a cross section of America!

I know I don't know anything about you guys. But sometimes I can feel the dogma coming thru. I called it "bombastic" once.

Now it's interesting to me that I may be perceived as bombastic too...It makes the whole societal problem just that more intractable, if we can all perceive each other negatively.

Doomed to failure? I don't get this proposition that if we just turned back the clock and acted like we all did around WWII or whenever some magic time was, life would be great.

I mean, what are we supposed to do? Send men to moon? why? Listen to georger who cares apparently about young married couples with kids and no jobs? I'm surprised if that's true. But if so: kudoes to you georger, and I support you.

[georger 255]

Quote

Snowmman once again he did not think he would get the money or the chutes it was a shock to him that he got anything at all.This is why he was so supprised when he got anything at all.We must remember that this was before the terrorist days. The simple fact that it worked for him started the skyjacking era, for ransom and political purposes. Known fact. One more thing second guessing my comments is good Thank You .Jerry

Jerry, a few things you say are just wrong. Cooper did
not start the hijack era. He was not even the first - one predated his by two weeks and some people
believe Cooper was a copy cat. And Cooper was not the last.

There is a long list of things Cooper did right for
his hijack to work. There is no proof whatever that
his bomb was not real. It is suspected his red
sticks may have been road flares, but no actual
proof. Some dynamite in that era was in fact red; that is fully documented. The final word on the bomb
has not been written and you can take that to the
bank.

Whatever Cooper's bankground he made some
excellent choices which clearly fall outside the range of it being pure accident. Cooper wrote his demands
and instructions down leaving no doubt about what
his basic demands were - almost like a bank robbery. For the most part he stayed silent after
that and used Mucklow to do his communicating
for him, up to the point of his departure.

He chose flight 305. He targeted that flight and
day and time and kept to his schedule. He knew
the weather before he even stepped into the airport.

He was an active willing participant in this hijacking
at every step. His dress was by choice and not an
accident.

I really think it is time to get beyond all the
stereotyping that goes on in this case.

These are my opinions.

[snowmman 3]

Jerry said "This in its self produced panic"

Jerry, I sometimes wonder if Cooper was good enough that he knew how to induce panic in lots of ways...not just with a visual (the bomb).

It's easy to induce panic with a stare, a tone of voice. Sometimes you don't have to say anything. You just have to act ...different.

People get scared. Especially when they know they're exposed.

The real problem with hijackings is not hijackers, but that planes are basically unsafe technology. Any unsafe technology is exploited. The lie the airlines promoted was that they were reasonable methods of transportation.

It does not make sense, with where we are in terms of technologies and the world, to be flying people around in the air.

(edit) I had a thought about technology and skill issues in a modern flavor. Jerry: if someone read the files off your computer right now and gave them to me, would that person be skilled or a whuffo? The correct answer is: could be either.

[georger 255]

Quote

Quote

Not sure when you [Snow]were at Walmart last! I see most young married broke kids there trying to
get by! You however probably prefer credit cards
and bailouts ... and fuck the economy and everyone. You're special.

I am no longer Snow's hired publicist/PR hack Georger. Michael Jackson's man took my job.

I have, however, met Snow and you really have him all wrong. I don't expect you to believe me. His posts give few clues to the real Snowmman.

377

It still comes out as a tyrany that
is damned near impossible to live with, day to day.
Very soon you and Snow will all be alone here.
Thats a flat out prediction -

The DB Cooper case isnt that precious to me!

So enjoy it while it lasts.

[JerryThomas 0]

Georger. I'm not wrong. When Cooper did his thing It was the most publizied and documented in history Sure there was others however it was not as publizied as Coopers and still to this date it is the biggest story on record. It is considered to be the beginning of terrorist hyjacking on record. This is fact. I don't claim to know much. What I do know is more about this case than anyone but Ralph and he will tell all that I know as much as he does. The bottom line is that I have researched this case for the past 30 yrs since 1988 I have done all the test and researched every possible senario. So believe me when I say that I do Know more about this case than most. Alot of people waist time researching the things I have already done. When asked they still doubt me. Now lets examine the outcome of there research. Not one can tell you I am not right. All will tell you I am. Too second guess me is wrong. I have covered all basis. I have left no stone unturned.I have questioned everything any one can think of and then some. Jerry

[georger 255]

Quote

Georger. I'm not wrong. When Cooper did his thing It was the most publizied and documented in history Sure there was others however it was not as publizied as Coopers and still to this date it is the biggest story on record. It is considered to be the beginning of terrorist hyjacking on record. This is fact. I don't claim to know much. What I do know is more about this case than anyone but Ralph and he will tell all that I know as much as he does. The bottom line is that I have researched this case for the past 30 yrs since 1988 I have done all the test and researched every possible senario. So believe me when I say that I do Know more about this case than most. Alot of people waist time researching the things I have already done. When asked they still doubt me. Now lets examine the outcome of there research. Not one can tell you I am not right. All will tell you I am. Too second guess me is wrong. I have covered all basis. I have left no stone unturned.I have questioned everything any one can think of and then some. Jerry

I know the above is your position. I will just stop
and expect the FBI Director and Ralph to announce the case is solved ad closed.

That means I dont have to come here any more!

Congratulations. Case closed. All fools can now
go back to the scheduled program. Sorry for the
unscheduled inconvenience.

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger Lets not be childish. We must consider That new idea's can still solve this case. Like Diatoms. Science is still the key as you will know. So what makes you think that you can not be a important part of this case. I only stated fact. I believe new Ideas an science can solve this case. you know that.We have discused this. For you to make the statement that you did is a insult. Your a good friend and exstemely knowledgeable in many area's. Your expertise is needed. Jerry

[georger 255]

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Geoger Lets not be childish. We must consider That new idea's can still solve this case. Like Diatoms. Science is still the key as you will know. So what makes you think that you can not be a important part of this case. I only stated fact. I believe new Ideas an science can solve this case. you know that.We have discused this. For you to make the statement that you did is a insult. Your a good friend and exstemely knowledgeable in many area's. Your expertise is needed. Jerry

Its no insult. I just dont have any more time for
this. You have many experts here and more on the
way. Snowmman, 377, Jo, Cousin Bruce, Orange1,
any of whom can resolve the last remaining details
in a case already solved. Good luck. Stay frosty.