DB Cooper

[nigel99 567]

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Yikes Nigel. Double shot squeeze and pull Capwells too. Scary hardware. Thank goodness I had just "upgraded" to military surplus shot and a half Capewells when I had my first cutaway. That old gear looks so sketchy by todays standards. You get some respect for having jumped it.

377

No respect please I was just too young and stupid to realise how crap it all was. I jumped the C9 in my profile pic until it literally disintegrated on opening one day I then bought a crap old wonderhog with an old Unit main which I jumped less then 5 times before downsizing to a Wildfire 170...

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[377 22]

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Has anyone dug up anything interesting on Gossett?

Galen is still investigating but remains confident that Gossett was Cooper. He is interested in learning what others find out about the Tena Bar and the money find.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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Very soon you and Snow will all be alone here.
Thats a flat out prediction -

Wrong Georger. That's my flat out prediction.

Orange never quits. Jo quits often, but her return is very dependable. Bruce, Sluggo, Safe and Airtwardo show no signs of abandoning ship. Jerry hangs in there and doesn't get all torqued when someone disagrees with him or questions his conclusions.

Take a few days off and cool down Georger. Snow has been pretty cordial lately, so why flee? I enjoy your participation and scientific outlook. You have friends here even if you don't see them as such.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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Yikes Nigel. Double shot squeeze and pull Capwells too. Scary hardware. Thank goodness I had just "upgraded" to military surplus shot and a half Capewells when I had my first cutaway. That old gear looks so sketchy by todays standards. You get some respect for having jumped it.

377

No respect please I was just too young and stupid to realise how crap it all was. I jumped the C9 in my profile pic until it literally disintegrated on opening one day I then bought a crap old wonderhog with an old Unit main which I jumped less then 5 times before downsizing to a Wildfire 170...

So I assume you cut away from the trashed C9? Did you have to depend on those Jurassic Capewells shown in the photo?

Isn't it amazing what marginal gear we trusted our lives to back in the day? A lot of the stuff literally came out of the local military surplus store.

Snow, was there ever an era in climbing where a lot of the gear was military surplus?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

Tina's bar was where the money was found. However There was many piece's of money on the bar that was not recovered.They were small pieces/bits.This was above the point where Brian found the bundles of 20's . This was verified by the fazio's Brothers. The brothers were the one's that escaveted the site for the FBI.Still to this day they rember these facts. The last time I talked to the fazio's was in March of this year> Brian was on the site and pointed out the exact spot that he found the money. Larry Carr was also present along with Tom, Carrol, Geof and a FBI Agent from DC.,They all question the Fazio brothers.They were told by the Fazio's that they believed the money floated to the Bar from the washougal. They also stated that they had seen a lot of debris in the past that had floated down to the Bar and still do. They are very adament on the fact that the money found floated down to the bar from the Washougal. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

georger's use of "tyranny" was interesting. We make fun of forums and posts and writing, yet it can inspire someone to use the word "tyranny" ....must be good stuff then!

Let's talk about something new.

Jerrry's talk about a dispersion of bill fragments upward of the money find is interesting. (edit) Jerry: what direction is "above" ..towards the house, or N or S on the river bank?

Jerry, we have pictures of the excavation. It was a series of trenches. Your post made it sound like the full bar was excavated (my read). It wasn't.

I guess I don't understand why people would "see" fragments, but not pick them up.

Are you saying they saw fragments, but no one recovered them?

Need some clarification.

Also: even if everything you say is true, why does it point to the Washougal? Is there some knowledge of how debris flows into the Columbia that the Fazios have?

[snowmman 3]

Saw Indonesia was in the news today.

I happened to be reading an article the other day from 1990 where the claim was that the US/CIA helped provide lists of names of PKI/Communist, that were used to track killings by the Indonesian army during the massacres in 1965.

http://www.namebase.org/kadane.html

I guess it's still fuzzy what the facts are.

from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Indonesia
"Between 300,000 and one million Indonesians were killed in the mass killings that followed. The victims included non-Communists who were slain because of mistaken identity or "guilt by association." However, the lack of information makes it impossible to pinpoint an exact figure of casualties. Many scholars today suggest that the figure is between 200,000 and 500,000. Lists of suspected communists were supplied to the Indonesian military by the CIA. A CIA study of the events in Indonesia assessed that "In terms of the numbers killed the anti-PKI massacres in Indonesia rank as one of the worst mass murders of the 20th century..." "

There is a separate entry for CIA involvement in Indonesia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Indonesia

[Orange1 0]

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Orange 1 It was a compliment in the highest form /respect. Jerry

And taken that way

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

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I guess I don't understand why people would "see" fragments, but not pick them up

Me too. Are the fragments mentioned in any report?

I am no hydrologist but I am wondering how small fragments would end up in the same area as a big bundle. Wouldn't the fragments be far more mobile and end up somewhere else if the money came downstream from a remote location?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Two new books in my mail today. (well, used, but very good condition)

I've referenced what's available on Google Books before, but now I have the whole books.

SOG, The Secret Wars of America's Commandos in Vietnam,
John L. Plaster
and
Secret Commandos, Behind Enemy Lines with the Elite Warriors of SOG.
also by John L. Plaster.

I'm actually looking forward to reading them. More than 700 pp. total. The bits I had read before of Plaster, I much more enjoyed his writing style, thoughts, commentary, than say the Waugh book. I've not read Hooper's book so can't comment on his writing style.

I don't know if there will be anything interesting to post about..since I think I've covered most of it already. But will see.

There is always more literature! it is never ending.

[snowmman 3]

okay I don't have Plaster's big photo book, but here are some pics from the center of "SOG, The Secret Wars of America's Commandos in Vietnam", published 1997.
(this was paperback edition. Not sure the year of the first published)

SOG_1.jpg is cool for you jumpers.

There's a photo from Jim Storter, the guy who exaggerated his HALO experience, but led the successful fourth HALO. The shot is two guys freefalling as a pair. Remember the account said they jumped as pairs. So you jumpers can chime in on their style!

The shot is daytime, they are training at Camp Long Thanh. Altitude looks high to me. maybe 14k'? (edit) Looks to be a helicopter jump?

The second I included for 377, since it shows use of a hand held radio direction finder on the ground. (edit) apparently NVA? not sure how Plaster would get such a pic though?

I also like the picture of a toe-popper, because I couldn't visualize them from the description. (I even read I think where they improvised toe-poppers from soap dishes? Jerry: ever hear about anything like that?)

And the pic of all the typical arms carried is good.

Every account I've read emphasized the exact count of magazines, and the count of bullets in each magazine. I could imagine that became real important to these guys.

[snowmman 3]

This is bound to stir up controversy. A 2005 master's thesis at a US war college, stating that SOG was "neither strategically nor operationally useful in Vietnam".


But no one here reads long papers so I have nothing to worry about. (I'm always reading N things at once)
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA437021&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

The author graduated from USMA West Point. This was for his master's after that.. Interestingly, relatively recent: 2005.

By Major Danny M. Kelley II
U.S. Army Command and General Staff College
Presented for a Master's Thesis, 6/17/05

Title "The Misuse of the Studies and Observation Group as a National Asset in Vietnam"

I'll just repost some of the first paragraphs from the conclusion on page 73. He goes on to blame the civilian government, basically the presidency, for misuse. Which is accurate!

Hey! This is how military coups start to get rationalized...yahoo.

-----------------

CHAPTER 5 CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

Despite the tactical successes, SOG was neither strategically nor operationally useful in Vietnam. The ability to maneuver and conduct battles by the North Vietnamese was not impacted to any great degree by SOG's activities other than what was already mentioned in the research. The unconventional war effort was more or less a nuisance to the North Vietnamese. History shows that they continued to maintain control of their rear area and move supplies and personnel to fight the war in South Vietnam. They were still strong enough to mount a major offensive in 1972 and again successfully in 1975. Thus, SOG did not contribute significantly to the Vietnam War effort. Had SOG operations been linked to the conventional fight and restrictions lessened or dropped, the unconventional war effort might have been more effective.

The significance of the conclusion to the field of study and related problems is that future presidents should ensure they know their enemy before committing military forces against it. Knowing the enemy will help ensure the correct forces are used and in the right manner. Furthermore, they must know the true capabilities and limitations of their military and paramilitary forces. There are advantages to using SOG type forces in limited wars. They have a low visibility signature, can be disavowed, and are by their nature extremely flexible. Furthermore, if applied to the correct targets, they can be extremely successful. Deciding what the force can actually accomplish is critical, although quite possible if planners conduct competent mission analysis. Restrictions should be carefully weighed during mission analysis to ensure the courses of action proposed will still meet the commander's intent. Whether or not the military or CIA is the paramilitary force of choice seems irrelevant. The advisors to the President need to ensure he or she has the correct information in order to make command decisions regarding the use of force. This applies today in the GWOT as well.

The difference in presidential approaches to conducting limited war proved critical to an organization like SOG. Conducting large scale paramilitary operations that the US government would potentially have to acknowledge, explain, deny or disavow caused the President great risk at home as well as on the global stage. The presidential advisors should have known just how much could have been done covertly without causing a war that expanded beyond the scope of what was acceptable. Both Kennedy and Johnson shared many of the same key advisors, such as Secretary of Defense McNamara and Secretary of State Rusk. These individuals made numerous miscalculations and failed to provide their Presidents with the information they needed to properly execute covert operations in the context of a limited war strategy. Ineffectual advisors and Johnson as a cautious, almost timid Commander in Chief proved devastating to SOG's paramilitary efforts.

[snowmman 3]

"I'd like to have two armies: one for display with lovely guns, tanks, little soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering generals, and dear little regimental officers who would be deeply concerned over their general's bowel movements or their colonel's piles, an army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the real one, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display, but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the army in which I should like to fight."

-Jean Larte' Guy,
Soldier and Writer

[snowmman 3]

Here's a recent paper that's quite stunning.
http://www.yale.edu/cgp/Walrus_CambodiaBombing_OCT06.pdf

Using USAF database, it plots the bombing of Cambodia by the US on a map (page 2). 1965-1973.

There were 113,716 target sites (10% unspecified)
230,516 sorties
2,756,941 tons of ordinance.

Cambodia may have been the most heavily bombed country in history.

There's some quotes from Nixon to Kissinger, and Kissinger to Haig, from tapes, that are stunning in their casualness.

I was reading this in regards to a quick scan of the Khmer Rouge massacres in '75, (which was triggered off of reading about the Indonesia massacres)

[snowmman 3]

I'm just 31 pages in, and Plaster's organization of facts, details and writing style is quite amazing. Just straightforward. No axe to ground. Just presenting the facts he's gathered (which seems pretty well rounded/complete, so far). It appears he did a lot of research.

He names all the people he interviewed in the forward (special forces folks). It's a lot.

Cousin Brucie: You have to get these two books. The photo book is too pricey, even used, I think..but these two are just single dollars. (used paperback)

(edit) I'll be honest, in contrast, Waugh's book comes off as written by a thug. (I don't know the guy, so I'm just reacting to the book)

[snowmman 3]

It's easy to get depressed reading this Vietnam stuff.

And in mulling over georger's rants, it's interesting how easy it is for the older generation to be confident that they know what's wrong with current events, and it usually involves some kind of rosy view of the past, and how the current generation is a bunch of losers.

What I see is the opposite: that we learn from history. That humans are always flawed. That information is never perfect, and in any moment, there is no obviously right perspective.

That you can create ideology to motivate humans to do most anything, at the drop of a hat. Humans like to rally around a cause. What else is there to do in life? Eat, sleep, die? So we rally.

Us vs Them.

You people, as georger might say.

But what I see in daily life, is that the next generation is better.

I think that's hard for an older generation to accept.

Yes, they point to the battles fought. The people who died. The injustices overcome. That all happened.

But what we need in the future is more knowledge.

Not rants.

As usual, I may be clueless, and am interested in others thoughts.

[skyjack71 0]

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Duane was left handed. Was Cooper No he was not all reports indicate cooper was right handed.Jerry

Jerry that has NEVER been addressed by the FBI or CIA or others - NO where is that stated as fact. I repeatedly and other have repeatedly ask the FBI what hand Cooper held his cigarret in and there have NEVER been any answers. I know you are NOT priviilege to confidencial FBI information. If you can state this then state it with the DOCUMENTATION that the FBI provide. The FBI has no Documentation on this that they have ever made public.

What determined this for me was his position on the plane and Tina lighting the smokes.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

yeehaw! let's talk about Duane.
Jerry: Your turn.

[377 22]

Jo has proof that Duane was Cooper, but she can't yet share her evidence. Surely you understand Snow.

Why she is worried about such minor details as RH or LH when the case has been solved puzzles me.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Jo has proof that Duane was Cooper, but she can't yet share her evidence. Surely you understand Snow.

Why she is worried about such minor details as RH or LH when the case has been solved puzzles me.

377

What puzzles me is why Jerry would even mention Duane. I mean why bother? I didn't even notice he did, until Jo snipped his post. I'm assuming it was an accurate Snip.

Why doesn't Jerry obsess about Gossett? He confessed. He says he's Cooper. Maybe I need to promote Gossett.

Gossett was Cooper. I know it. He was right handed.

[snowmman 3]

okay, I'm looking thru the stuff the insert team pulled out of the Seattle building, and I found something interesting.

It's a FBI internal bulletin referencing a possible McCoy/Cooper connection, but the interesting thing is a comment that while they were checking it out, they discovered that Vegas to Portland passenger manifests were no longer available.

And this was just 4/18/72

It got me wondering if, when Carr said that all flights were checked etc, if that was bullshit, since this bulletin says they weren't able to check out out this aspect on 4/18/72 because the data was no longer available.

So they may have checked "something" right away...but it sounds like they didn't preserve the data..i.e. they didn't save information for checking later.

see attached.

p.s. the insert team is bitching about not getting paid yet. Didn't the checks get cleared?

[georger 256]

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georger's use of "tyranny" was interesting. We make fun of forums and posts and writing, yet it can inspire someone to use the word "tyranny" ....must be good stuff then!

Let's talk about something new.

Jerrry's talk about a dispersion of bill fragments upward of the money find is interesting. (edit) Jerry: what direction is "above" ..towards the house, or N or S on the river bank?

Jerry, we have pictures of the excavation. It was a series of trenches. Your post made it sound like the full bar was excavated (my read). It wasn't.

I guess I don't understand why people would "see" fragments, but not pick them up.

Are you saying they saw fragments, but no one recovered them?

Need some clarification.

Also: even if everything you say is true, why does it point to the Washougal? Is there some knowledge of how debris flows into the Columbia that the Fazios have?

Well if it isnt obvious ... does it even need explaining?
We are in gridlock and there is no good way out short of somebody getting their feelings hurt and upset,
with one set to hurl accusations, et cetera. It is the reason I have withdrawn, because there is no good solution - we are in literal gridlock.

Jerry Thomas represents __________ at the highest
level. Everything Jerry has or knows comes directly
from ____________. How this all fits with what other
FBI personnel have said and done, God only knows.
I sure don't. But, I'm not going to get caught in the
middle!

Jerry presents no "evidence". Jerry only gives information. If Jerry says "Cooper was X" and
someone says "Cooper was Z", Jerry is going to say, "No. Someone is wrong". Because, Jerry's information is coming directly from ....... the highest authority!

I cant say anything without evidence behind it here.
Jerry can say anything without evidence here. Jerry's
evidence is "secret".

How this dilemma gets resolved is why I have stuck in
this forum for months, waiting. It's the only reason I
have stayed here. I don't know how this gets resolved or even if it can be resolved. Because the issue is not just between Jerry and us, the issue is between Jerry and H and the rest of the FBI, and I did not create this
situation.

This is a bad situation some will try to take advantage of. Two people here have already done it. Jerry sees
the problem but can't resolve it himself.

So this forum can go on forever and debate and
research and have it all add up to nothing because
at the end of the day all Jerry has to do is surface and say "No. You are all wrong".

That is the gridlock; it was built into the very fabric of the Cooper case itself right from the beginning.

Jerry may have the true facts in this case, but no
evidence will ever be presented. The socalled evidence
is being protected, like the Pope protects old books
and papers! That is not science but it is social reality.

[snowmman 3]

Yeah you're right georger.
Good assessment.

I mentioned before that I don't see how the normal use of money, sex, drugs can help here.

Don't know what other assets/firepower can be brought to bear.

Guns seem out because of legal/ethical issues.

Wit might work, but I think the votes are that it's in short supply here.

[377 22]

There might be gridlock on the possibility of a perfect DBC solution arising from this forum, but don't ignore the following beneficial features:

1. Entertainment value. I prefer this forum to junk TV. Maybe National Geographic will blend the medias.

2. Social value, like what are the chances that this motley crew would ever get together in the real world? I actually enjoy this aspect, interacting with really diverse personalities who I otherwise would have no contact with.

3. BEACON VALUE. Sure, we are an obscure forum, but we contain a LOT of possibly relevant info that will be found by search engines. There might be someone out there who actually knows a lot more about Cooper than we do who will be drawn to this info and start posting or use the info here to tie up some loose ends befiore going to the FBI with a good lead. Lighthouses might have been frustrating to those who painted them, repaired them and manned them, but they served a very valuable purpose to ships that had no role in their upkeep.

4. Snow may never be able to conclusively tie Billy W to NORJACK, either because Billy wasn't Cooper or there isnt enough unabiguous evidence to prove anything. Just finding him, however, is noteworthy because it leads to other stuff that might be related to Cooper. You gotta admit that Billy's resemblance to the FBI Cooper sketches is quite close. Snow has found a Super-Cooper candidate even if he isn't the guy who did NORJACK. He is a possible lookalike and is highly qualified as far as skills and experience go.

5. Educational value. I have learned a LOT from postings here even if none of them solves the crime.

Some of you have impossibly high standards for this forum and get frustrated when it inevitably fails to meet them. Notch your expectations down and just enjoy the ride.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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I mentioned before that I don't see how the normal use of money, sex, drugs can help here.

Bruce has shown us that the CIA has used all three of these techniques, although their success is open to dispute.

Don't rule these tools out until you have tried them Snow.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.