DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

377 suggested:
"3. BEACON VALUE. Sure, we are an obscure forum, but we contain a LOT of possibly relevant info that will be found by search engines."

This is incorrect. The full contents of the DBC thread here does not get indexed by Google. Some pages leak, but I think it's an intermittent thing that has something to do with how certain pages get cached somewhere at DZ.com. I'm not sure. It's not consistent.

But I believe saying that anything we post here, is visible to Google, is incorrect.

People can test that with some searches.

We have a beacon, but it's just us shining flashlights in each others faces.

We flashed Waugh, but he gave us the finger.

[snowmman 3]

377 mentioned entertainment value.
Here was the previous guy I was wondering about.
Sheridan Peterson.
He's a down-the-rabbit-hole Alice-in-Wonderland story. But he ain't Cooper. Interesting life. Obviously another guy the FBI must have checked out and cleared at some point, because they investigated 1400 suspects.
Literature buffs can start by buying his ebook.
But it's hard to hold on to your sanity for that ride.

He's a good one to contrast to Waugh though. Most other suspects we've talked about are like talking about kindergarteners being Cooper.

(edit) I know, I know. Skydiving being the small, tightknit community that everyone has described, everyone knows what I'm talking about. But I'm just a whuffo, so you can't blame me for being confused. Funny!

[snowmman 3]

When I forwarded, indirectly, the info about Sheridan to the FBI, is when I realized there was an active coverup.

coverup, deadlock, whatever.
you say tom-a-toe, I say to-matoh..
that's what it's all about!

(edit) to reiterate though, based on the information the FBI has not been able to hide successfully, I think Waugh is the best current suspect.

More information could change that, obviously.
And there's nothing to say Waugh is "it". Just my best suspect.

[377 22]

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But I believe saying that anything we post here, is visible to Google, is incorrect.

Is there some way we can fix that shortcoming Snow? Google sometimes takes a long time to mine stuff. I know an obscure website that for nearly a year was not found by Google. Now all its content appears to be in Google's database.

Maybe I have overstated the beacon aspect, but someone looking for DBC stuff would surely find dropzone.com at some point and from there finding this stuff is easy. Jo found this forum so it IS findable by Whuffos.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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based on the information the FBI has not been able to hide successfully, I think Waugh is the best current suspect.

Agree, but Waugh may just be a nearly perfect fit (appearance, experience, opportunity, age etc) and not the right guy. How frustrating.

Why is it that Snow found two really good matches and none of us found even one? I know, Jo thinks she did, but I am awaiting proof.

If you check out Peterson you will find the following:

Smoke jumper
Boeing tech writer
Founded Boeing skydiving club
Served in Nam as a civilian advisor
Ex US Marine, combat experience
Experienced skydiver with night jumps
Huge grudge based on US attrocities witnessed in Nam
Looks like Cooper sketches, but Billy Waugh is a better match
Authored a novel that has some NORJACK parallels

So what is it about Snow that lets him scoop a bunch of smart inquisitive colleagues? I don't want to kiss butt so I will leave it as a question rather than a compliment.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

"So what is it about Snow that lets him scoop a bunch of smart inquisitive colleagues?"

not a jumper.
not FBI.
not georger.

:)

Obviously scoop means nothing. It's easy to print names no one has seen in a DBC thread before. Does that mean anything? I dunno. But it does make me laugh at the supposed level of "theorization" about McCoy, Weber, et. al.
Or actually anything I read in Himmelsbach's book, or the McCoy book by the FBI guys. And don't get me going about Barb Dayton!

(edit) 377: on Sheridan, obviously you know I could lengthen that list, but the important ones you left out were age and height. age was good, and height was good. That's the hardest thing to get aligned first for any good suspect. Number #1: how do you get that info!

[377 22]

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And don't get me going about Barb Dayton!

Oh come on Snow, tell us what you think about Barb Dayton aka LOLA.

Too bad these self confessed Coopers are all dead. We could put them on Jerry Springer and they could fight it out over who really was Cooper.

Now THAT's entertainment!

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

I have personal contact with a different kind of Nam vet, a former Vietnamese paratrooper who is married to a friend.

This man made military HALO jumps in Nam out of helicopters, but they were training not actual combat jumps. Combat jumps were few and all were static line. He is not a poser from what I can tell, knows all about the S/L and HALO gear and the aircraft too.

I am going to see if he knew about the Air America 727 jumps or the Billy W SOG type HALO jumps.

It wont tell us who Cooper was but it might tell us how far some of this 727 and US HALO info spread.

Any other questions you'd like posed to him?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

name the year that the first meeting of Boeing employees happened for the purpose of organizing skydiving..i.e. like an informal club.

(it was pre-1971)

doesn't mean anything for this Cooper thing, but hey, this is a trivia forum. (answer available on the web)

[snowmman 3]

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Any other questions you'd like posed to him?

377

ask about what unit he was in..whether there were Montagnards and Nungs in the unit.
ask if they got extra pay for being jump certified.
ask if they wore any smokejumper suits on any jumps.
ask if they static-lined out of helicopters using the stabo rig mount.
oh and the helis: were they Hueys?
ask if any jumps were out of planes, and which ones. C-47? C-123? C-130?
ask if night jumps.
ask how they extracted after the jump

[snowmman 3]

I have some of my people investigating the following

1) The citizen's investigative group farce, was actually a training scenario, used for training undercover agents for participating in sting chat rooms.

2) That a database is being collected of all email addresses and phone numbers used to submit tips on the db cooper case. This info is run thru the master database, because a recent pHd study showed a slightly higher incident of running red lights, for people who follow the DBC thing.

haven't connected the dots yet, but we're just rolling up the budget for the next year, and we've got some homeland money to expand, so things are looking positive.

[georger 255]

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There might be gridlock on the possibility of a perfect DBC solution arising from this forum, but don't ignore the following beneficial features:

1. Entertainment value. I prefer this forum to junk TV. Maybe National Geographic will blend the medias.

2. Social value, like what are the chances that this motley crew would ever get together in the real world? I actually enjoy this aspect, interacting with really diverse personalities who I otherwise would have no contact with.

3. BEACON VALUE. Sure, we are an obscure forum, but we contain a LOT of possibly relevant info that will be found by search engines. There might be someone out there who actually knows a lot more about Cooper than we do who will be drawn to this info and start posting or use the info here to tie up some loose ends befiore going to the FBI with a good lead. Lighthouses might have been frustrating to those who painted them, repaired them and manned them, but they served a very valuable purpose to ships that had no role in their upkeep.

4. Snow may never be able to conclusively tie Billy W to NORJACK, either because Billy wasn't Cooper or there isnt enough unabiguous evidence to prove anything. Just finding him, however, is noteworthy because it leads to other stuff that might be related to Cooper. You gotta admit that Billy's resemblance to the FBI Cooper sketches is quite close. Snow has found a Super-Cooper candidate even if he isn't the guy who did NORJACK. He is a possible lookalike and is highly qualified as far as skills and experience go.

5. Educational value. I have learned a LOT from postings here even if none of them solves the crime.

Some of you have impossibly high standards for this forum and get frustrated when it inevitably fails to meet them. Notch your expectations down and just enjoy the ride.

377

all good points. All valid points. I rushed.
Have to check the new impact spots on Jupiter tonight
so will be back later.

[georger 255]

Quote

377 suggested:
"3. BEACON VALUE. Sure, we are an obscure forum, but we contain a LOT of possibly relevant info that will be found by search engines."

This is incorrect. The full contents of the DBC thread here does not get indexed by Google. Some pages leak, but I think it's an intermittent thing that has something to do with how certain pages get cached somewhere at DZ.com. I'm not sure. It's not consistent.

But I believe saying that anything we post here, is visible to Google, is incorrect.

People can test that with some searches.

We have a beacon, but it's just us shining flashlights in each others faces.

We flashed Waugh, but he gave us the finger.

You see thats the difference btwn you and me. I
find Waugh interesting as it might apply to Cooper,
but "might" is remote as I assess it, so I dont spend
much time on it. Bradon interested me more but
that also is dispensed with and explained. Every
time we go through this exercixe we wind up back
where we started, with nothing that trully changes
Ckret's profile of Cooper. I was frankly hoping Safe
might apply some logic to this. He hasnt so far.

One thing I should say is the socalled Dream Team,
so far as I know it, was not granted many special favors or special info. We had to work for every thing
we got. I think Tom would confirm this. And in one glaring case we wound up behind the eight ball precisely because we either were not given important
info, or we screwed up not asking for the right info,
ourselves. That is history now. It simply happened
as an accident on everyone's part.

This experience has lead me to wonder exactly what
the FBI has because if it hasn't much more than we
know about to date, then thousands of man hours
of effort produced ... a lot of nothing?

To the extent this is literally true then Cooper really
was a mystery, to everyone. Professionals and
amateurs alike. But why would it take 37 years for someone in authority to come out and simply say so
if this is the case.

Im not placing blame on anyone's shoulders so
no one should take this personally, but is this is the
deep mystery I suspect it may be, then by the same token nobody should act like "they" are in sole possession of the truth, when in fact they are as deep
in doubt and lack of results as we are!

And if so, why not just admit it.

[georger 255]

Quote

Quote

based on the information the FBI has not been able to hide successfully, I think Waugh is the best current suspect.

377

You see I dont think Waugh fits at all. But I havent
done measurements. Have you and should you?
That would be the evidentiary thing to do. I did for
Duane (with his elf ears).

I seriously doubt Waugh was even available to be
in Portland to do the hijacking on that date.

We have to up the standards here. We need to
require people to present "proof",or at least
what they consider their proof. Ckret asked people
tdo that and got nothing back but ridicule from
Snowmman! Snowmman hasnt presented any proof!
At least Safe tried an approach using his logic.

Jerry says C was right handed. Where is his proof?

People are entitled to be wrong! Somebody be wrong
here for a change!! Present the proof that comes out
wrong! I would love that for a change.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

You see I dont think Waugh fits at all. But I havent
done measurements. Have you and should you?
That would be the evidentiary thing to do. I did for
Duane (with his elf ears).

You might be right Georger. But which measurements? The 5'9" height is from Waugh's own description of himself. Are you talking about head measurements?

Quote

I seriously doubt Waugh was even available to be
in Portland to do the hijacking on that date.

Why do you say that georger? Do you have more info than I've posted? If so, be nice to post.

[snowmman 3]

Georger said "Ckret asked people
tdo that and got nothing back but ridicule from
Snowmman!"

There are always two perceptions of the same thing.
My perception was that Ckret proposed a flawed methodology and tried to hammer it down our throats.

His behavior revealed his lack of skill. For instance, he never believed he needed a team. Or, he had already decided what he needed, and was blind to how that just reinforced his own preconceptions.

Whatever the cause of his actions, they weren't skilled.

(edit) I say that. in evaluating his behavior against achieving some end goal. Now he may have had some other end goal. But its hard for me to see that his behaviors were optimal for what he stated was the end goal.

(edit) ps. what's wrong with ridicule anyhow? Some people like spanking during sex, for instance.

(edit) georger: I don't know you, but you come off as someone who's only succeeded with western-style, linear, thinking. Sure that works. But other stuff works too.

[snowmman 3]

"Snowmman hasnt presented any proof!"

Georger: think about it for a second. There will be no proof. The only hope at proof is fingerprints (probably not) and dna (probably not) or self-confession with evidence like money (unlikely).

It is not possible to prove anyone was Cooper.

It will be totally dumb luck for something to turn up on a suspect, to tie him to the case.

Identifying suspects is not about proof. It's just about narrowing down to a set that you can dig at for proof.

What exactly do you think I'm going to do, get dna and prints from Waugh? Talk to his friends? Sleep with his wife?

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,


It has been my experience that between 1980 and about 1996 you could walk up to 10 people on the street and ask who “D. B. Cooper” was and 8 of them knew who he was and what he did. Mostly gained from myths, but at least recognized the name.

You would get a similar response if you ask the same question about Angela Davis. Most people (about 8 out of 10) knew who she was and the nature of what she did.

If you asked about James Earl Ray (AND they didn’t confuse him with James Earl Jones), you would get at least 9 out of 10 who had some knowledge of who he was and what he did.

The interesting thing (to me at least) is Davis and Ray were on the FBI Most Wanted list. Cooper was not. (Ray was on it twice, after the King assassination and again after he escaped.)

My point is:
The public holds Cooper and his crime(s) at or near the same level as James Earl Ray and Angela Davis, but the FBI doesn’t (didn’t). So maybe the FBI didn’t put as much manpower and effort into solving NORJAK as we (at least I) have come to believe.

Maybe initially it was just another major case, which lay fallow while the FBI spent their time and energy chasing cop killers, domestic terrorist and assassins. Maybe it got a boost when the money was found on Tena Bar, and then sank back into the background. Then after 15 or 20 years it became “that unsolved hijacking.” Maybe then it took on more importance, but (unfortunately) after the evidence trail was very, very cold.

So, in the long run, the mythology of D.B. has made people (or at least me) give the case more importance than it has (or ever had) in the eyes of the FBI.

So, I guess it boils down to you guys, Himmelsbach, Jerry Thomas, and me. We may be the only ones who “give a shit” about Dan (D.B.) Cooper.

There sure were a lot of “maybes” in this post weren’t there?

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

I've been trying to grapple with why I perceived Carr as unskilled.
Here's an attempt to describe.

The problem with the Cooper case, is that you can't separate it into truth and untruths. Or liars and truth tellers.

All the information is flawed. So even if people think they are telling the truth, they may be wrong. So flawed truthtellers are the same as liars. The end result is bad info.

So it's a question of looking for something based on a thesis, using information that is flawed.

What Ckret couldn't accept is that all the information he had could be flawed.

Ckret wanted to believe that he added value to the information he had, because of his background and judgement. That was his flaw. He's as equally flawed as anyone.

Ckret should have focused on these roles:
-maximal dispersion of FBI info
-maximal team building (more people means more info)
-ignore the quality of information. It's not until you have more information that you can judge quality.

Now you might question the ability to build anything where all of it is composed of flawed information.

But we do that all the time. You don't need everything to be perfect. You can build something perfect from a set of imperfect parts. (example: I can insert random spelling errors, with no pattern, and you would able to deduce the correct sent message. Not always. But a lot)

Carr should have focused on information. He focused on personalities instead, which worked against gathering information.

There's my review. Which obviously is flawed! However it doesn't matter, since all that's interesting is how it adds or subtracts to an end goal of finding Cooper.

My belief is that the best path, at a certain point, was to get a new agent. I still believe that. We need a new agent.

[skyjack71 0]

Well if it isnt obvious ... does it even need explaining?
We are in gridlock and there is no good way out short of somebody getting their feelings hurt and upset,
with one set to hurl accusations, et cetera. It is the reason I have withdrawn, because there is no good solution - we are in literal gridlock.

Jerry Thomas represents __________ at the highest
level. Everything Jerry has or knows comes directly
from ____________. How this all fits with what other
FBI personnel have said and done, God only knows.
I sure don't. But, I'm not going to get caught in the
middle!

Jerry presents no "evidence". Jerry only gives information. If Jerry says "Cooper was X" and
someone says "Cooper was Z", Jerry is going to say, "No. Someone is wrong". Because, Jerry's information is coming directly from ....... the highest authority!

I cant say anything without evidence behind it here.
Jerry can say anything without evidence here. Jerry's
evidence is "secret".

How this dilemma gets resolved is why I have stuck in
this forum for months, waiting. It's the only reason I
have stayed here. I don't know how this gets resolved or even if it can be resolved. Because the issue is not just between Jerry and us, the issue is between Jerry and H and the rest of the FBI, and I did not create this
situation.

This is a bad situation some will try to take advantage of. Two people here have already done it. Jerry sees the problem but can't resolve it himself.

So this forum can go on forever and debate and research and have it all add up to nothing because at the end of the day all Jerry has to do is surface and say "No. You are all wrong".

That is the gridlock; it was built into the very fabric of the Cooper case itself right from the beginning.

Jerry may have the true facts in this case, but no evidence will ever be presented. The so called evidence is being protected, like the Pope protects old books
and papers! That is not science but it is social reality.

I have nothing to say other than WOW! Georger you said a mouthful. I REALLY do have new things and I really cannot talk about them until the project is complete.

The story on Cooper will never be complete as there will always be a Jerry or someone else who claim they know this or that was not true. What has been discovered regarding Weber may never be considered as "proof" by the FBI and others, but it is enough to put more light on who might have been Cooper.

As long as our governing officials and others have brooms in their hands - the Mouse and Roach story may never be told...but there is something I can do - and that is make it public. The truth is forthcoming and if you guys decide to WASH it then that is your business. ALL I ever wanted was the truth and an explanation that made sense regarding Duane Weber AKA John C. Collins...and why he confessed to being Dan Cooper and what his motive may have been. I know in my heart this man was Cooper and after you get the information what you believe will be your choice.

I am sure the forum will allow me to open a thread for the announcement if you guys get tired of keeping this one going.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

"After the information is revealed SkyJack71 needs to get on with living life - going forward and not looking back..."

Hey Jo, if that actually happened, that would be great, and could be taken as a positive accomplishment for the thread.

I sincerely hope that might be true. Who knows what might happen in the rest of your life?

[snowmman 3]

Sometimes I have to say things very simply, it seems for everyone to grok it.

But does everyone agree, that the existence of a Billy Waugh and a Sheridan Peterson, proves two "facts" of Carr's to be false:

1) That an expert wouldn't jump in those conditions
2) That Vietnam didn't have people of the right age

Also, we all agree that "McCoy shows how an expert would do it" is false.

There really isn't enough info to bin Cooper as expert or whuffo, so you have to accept both as possibles while searching.

Here's something to muse about:

If dumb old snowmman can find two that fit good profiles, how many more might be out there, in similar profile? Did the FBI look at all of them? Or clear incorrectly?

Remember the HALO stuff apparently wasn't declassified till 1995 (I've not searched deeply on that fact but believe it to be true)

If you guys are as good as you think you are, you'd gather similar info on all the other HALO jumpers in vietnam, or the older RT members, say. I've looked at that a little, and didn't find anything interesting to make it feel like it's worth more effort.

But I've found enough stuff over time, to justify my position that Carr didn't know what the hell he was talking about.

I didn't have to be perfect myself, to be confident Carr could be safely ignored when he proposed things. (Because he presented obviously false things as 100% fact).

[BruceSmith 3]

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I'm just 31 pages in, and Plaster's organization of facts, details and writing style is quite amazing. Just straightforward. No axe to ground. Just presenting the facts he's gathered (which seems pretty well rounded/complete, so far). It appears he did a lot of research.

He names all the people he interviewed in the forward (special forces folks). It's a lot.

Cousin Brucie: You have to get these two books. The photo book is too pricey, even used, I think..but these two are just single dollars. (used paperback)

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I agree, Snowmman. I'm on it. Public Library route, though, this round. (I had to draw the line somewhere. It's a little daunting when your books are stacked next to the bed 2 feet higher than one's head, and on three sides, too....helps absorb some of the frequency waves from MKULTRA when I sleep, though...(smile).

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[BruceSmith 3]

[377 22]

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But does everyone agree, that the existence of a Billy Waugh and a Sheridan Peterson, proves two "facts" of Carr's to be false:

1) That an expert wouldn't jump in those conditions
2) That Vietnam didn't have people of the right age

I agree. Even Carr would have to agree I think. Those kind of incorrect assumptions can ruin an investigation by ruling out fruitful areas of inquiry.

When Norjack happened I was sure it had to be a sport skydiver. I was wrong.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.