DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Covey OV-10 pic attached for 377. From Plaster.

Was reading about why they called the FAC planes "Covey" and how they supported the SOG on the ground.

Waugh spent his share of back seat time I believe as a Covey Rider. They flew OV-10's and others.

I thought this was a heartfelt reminsce from a guy on the ground, talking about Coveys. The Finger! A little dense to read, until you understand what the guy is saying. willie pete is White Phosporus, for example.
http://www.ranger25.com/covey.htm

The phrase "Covey" has some history, I forget the detail about how it started, but it became almost like saying Xerox for copy machine..i.e. it was an operational kind of thing, not a specific plane...kind of spotter action. (my interpretation)

oh the nat geo preview is up on youtube now.
Interesting they have the NWA routes from 1971 in the opening. I wonder if they got it from the schedule I posted (I had posted that kind of map of routes NWA had in 1971)

also, someone noted that the plane had inside logo for Alaska Air....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8IoWc77KTg

[377 22]

Quote

the Mouse and Roach story may never be told...but there is something I can do - and that is make it public.

Please tell the story Jo. Until you do it just reads like the cast from a cheap gangster novel, Mouse and Roach and all that. Are you sure Shorty wasn't involved?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Covey OV-10 pic attached for 377. From Plaster.

Was reading about why they called the FAC planes "Covey" and how they supported the SOG on the ground.

Waugh spent his share of back seat time I believe as a Covey Rider. They flew OV-10's and others.

I thought this was a heartfelt reminsce from a guy on the ground, talking about Coveys. The Finger! A little dense to read, until you understand what the guy is saying. willie pete is White Phosporus, for example.
http://www.ranger25.com/covey.htm

The phrase "Covey" has some history, I forget the detail about how it started, but it became almost like saying Xerox for copy machine..i.e. it was an operational kind of thing, not a specific plane...kind of spotter action. (my interpretation)

Thanks for indulging my airplane mania Snow. This very OV 10 in the picture could be buzzing your secret mountain fortress this summer. The California Department of Forestry has cornered the market on surplus OV 10s and had them extensively overhauled by San Joaquin Helicopter (they work on fixed wing acft too). They now fly as spotters for air attack fire tankers and have proven extremely well suited for the task.

Of course they may just be targeting you for something a little stronger than PhosChek fire retardant. Sometimes they have to destroy a village to save it. You might want to speed up the work on those pneumatic AA cannons I referred to in an earlier post.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Plaster is real good at describing each man's uniqueness and strengths.

Some of the RT guys had an amazing amount of pre-vietnam experience. (but Waugh had the age thing. Another guy name Pops, but he went into Supply early). But Meadows here is just 34 in '66. Read why.

Here's Plaster comparing two One-Zeros. "SOG" page 61

"There were a study in contrasts. Where Wareing was instinctive, Meadows was methodical. "Meadows did everything meticulously, everything was rehearsed. You could have taken a film of [his] mission preparation and used it as a training film." Major Crerar recalled.

When he came to Shining Brass in 1966, Meadows had been a professional soldier nineteen years, though he was only thirty-four. Born in a dirt-floor moonshiner's cabin in West Virginia, Meadows had lied about his age to become a fifteen-year-old paratrooper in 1947, then so distinguished himself in Korea he was that war's youngest master sergeant.

Before an operation, Meadows would build a terrain map in the dirt, then have his whole team--Americans and Nungs--memorize the prominent features, all the LZs, streams and rally points. Then they'd take turns reciting the plan and pointing to sites in the model. "He would work them hard." Crerar said.

(previous passages talked about the difficulties in training Yards and Nungs, but highlighted their amazing strengths and loyalty. Maybe lacking education, but highly respected compatriots)

Much of Meadows' reputation came from his ability to capture prisoners; he held SOG's record--thirteen POWs snatched from behind enemy lines"

Goes on to highlight a lot of stuff Meadows did, and how he could be very bold.

In reading Plaster, it's a much more sane treatment..not like Waugh's love of the shoot-em-up kind of story.
I'm really curious to find out more about Waugh's missions. I read a lot where they call him amazing etc, but I keep wondering about details.

[georger 255]

Quote

Quote

You see I dont think Waugh fits at all. But I havent
done measurements. Have you and should you?
That would be the evidentiary thing to do. I did for
Duane (with his elf ears).

You might be right Georger. But which measurements? The 5'9" height is from Waugh's own description of himself. Are you talking about head measurements?

Quote

I seriously doubt Waugh was even available to be
in Portland to do the hijacking on that date.

Why do you say that georger? Do you have more info than I've posted? If so, be nice to post.

I have no "proof" of anything, but given normal rotation times and the dates in question, given
Waugh's rank and affiliations, I think its safe
to assume Mr. Waugh was very busy doing other things on the date in question and could prove
that quite easily. I am NOT going to bug the man
or anyone else about it - who am I to bug anyone about anything!

I also believe Mr Waugh does NOT meet the physical criteria for having been Cooper - by a
long way!

I also believe Mr Waugh does not meet the pscyhological criteria for having been Cooper -
by a long long way.

In fact, I believe Mr, Waugh is precisely the kind
of person who would qualify as a technical expert
you might bring in to help the FBI is assessing
Cooper's performance.

These facts as I see them separate Waugh from having been Cooper by many light years.

I have other reasons which are even stronger.

Mr. Waugh was not DB Cooper. Period.

Bradon wasn;t either.

[georger 255]

Quote

Georger said "Ckret asked people
tdo that and got nothing back but ridicule from
Snowmman!"

There are always two perceptions of the same thing.
My perception was that Ckret proposed a flawed methodology and tried to hammer it down our throats.

His behavior revealed his lack of skill. For instance, he never believed he needed a team. Or, he had already decided what he needed, and was blind to how that just reinforced his own preconceptions.

Whatever the cause of his actions, they weren't skilled.

(edit) I say that. in evaluating his behavior against achieving some end goal. Now he may have had some other end goal. But its hard for me to see that his behaviors were optimal for what he stated was the end goal.

(edit) ps. what's wrong with ridicule anyhow? Some people like spanking during sex, for instance.

(edit) georger: I don't know you, but you come off as someone who's only succeeded with western-style, linear, thinking. Sure that works. But other stuff works too.

well, then apply your own nonlinear algorythm to
your own thoughts... about Ckret! Take your own
advice.

Ckret's only failure so far as I know was perhaps
trying to shovel too much coal with too small a
shovel, and relying on people who frankly did not
live up to their advertising - ME BEING ONE!

Let's get real about this case!

Ckret is NOT sitting in Seattle with volumes of
indexed info about the Cooper case which specifies
things down to the level of microns and how many
hairs were on some flea at 2:30pm PST, 11-29-71
porior to biting Dog X at 4:19AM PST on 11-30-71,
all recorded on radar!

Such files do not exist! I keep telling you this.

Such information does not exist, anywhere.

Let Ckret off the hook! No FBI agent caught DB Cooper! The FBI as a body failed to find Cooper
or even delineate the flight path down to the
resolution of 1 mile. It is as simple as that.

Its a piece of information here, another one there,
volumes of agent reports, reports on reports on reports and a ton of people groping for straws,
others not doing the work they wish ten years later they might have done, etc etc etc. The system was
people. People have flaws.

If you want to get pissed at someone and hurl
charges, get pissed at Cooper. He started this
whole mess!

Remember Ckret took this mission on as an
after thought. Chasing Cooper 37 years late is NOT
Ckret's fulltime regular job, not even remotely.

If you were in his shoes I seriously doubt you
would do better, or even hold up.

There are things about the Cooper case that would have defied solution by any invesigative body, even
the CIA, MI5, KGB ... not to mention the lack of
hard evidence.

The FBI cant do it all. The FBI depends on a lot of other people doing their jobs. If those people do
incomplete work (or whatever) guess who gets stuck
with the lousy end of the stick - the FBI.

This is how the real world works. It did then and
it still does.

These are real flesh and blood people who arent perfect 24-7.

That's how Nature designed it. We are lucky to
be here.

[georger 255]

Quote

All,


It has been my experience that between 1980 and about 1996 you could walk up to 10 people on the street and ask who “D. B. Cooper” was and 8 of them knew who he was and what he did. Mostly gained from myths, but at least recognized the name.

You would get a similar response if you ask the same question about Angela Davis. Most people (about 8 out of 10) knew who she was and the nature of what she did.

If you asked about James Earl Ray (AND they didn’t confuse him with James Earl Jones), you would get at least 9 out of 10 who had some knowledge of who he was and what he did.

The interesting thing (to me at least) is Davis and Ray were on the FBI Most Wanted list. Cooper was not. (Ray was on it twice, after the King assassination and again after he escaped.)

My point is:
The public holds Cooper and his crime(s) at or near the same level as James Earl Ray and Angela Davis, but the FBI doesn’t (didn’t). So maybe the FBI didn’t put as much manpower and effort into solving NORJAK as we (at least I) have come to believe.

Maybe initially it was just another major case, which lay fallow while the FBI spent their time and energy chasing cop killers, domestic terrorist and assassins. Maybe it got a boost when the money was found on Tena Bar, and then sank back into the background. Then after 15 or 20 years it became “that unsolved hijacking.” Maybe then it took on more importance, but (unfortunately) after the evidence trail was very, very cold.

So, in the long run, the mythology of D.B. has made people (or at least me) give the case more importance than it has (or ever had) in the eyes of the FBI.

So, I guess it boils down to you guys, Himmelsbach, Jerry Thomas, and me. We may be the only ones who “give a shit” about Dan (D.B.) Cooper.

There sure were a lot of “maybes” in this post weren’t there?

And Cooper pulled his stunt during down time
when systems were down, for all practical purposes,
then vanishes into a fog in an area where Nature herself may have swallowed him - and everyone
wants him identified and found!

Not even airport security! He walks into a metropolitan airport with a bomb in his brief case.
He isnt even asked to open the brief case. (Better
security that year in Kindergartens!).

I think a lot of people care about Cooper, still.
The Cooper case. But what do you go on?
Where exactly do you look except for what somone
as passionate and dedicated as Jerry can come up
with? You know as well as I do if someone came
up with something certain, Jerry would there at 4:00am tomorrow looking... come hell or high water.

I keep thinking there is some good soul in the FBI or wherever who has the same passion and dedication, and someone else with a really good idea, and its just a matter of putting them together.

History isnt going to let this case die. History is
people.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Good post georger.

Quote

History isnt going to let this case die. History is people.

I like that... I'm gonna steal it.

Hey, at least I TOLD you I'm stealing it! That's altruistic... isn't it?

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 22]

Quote

Good post georger.

Quote

History isnt going to let this case die. History is people.

I like that... I'm gonna steal it.

Hey, at least I TOLD you I'm stealing it! That's altruistic... isn't it?

So if Cooper TOLD Tina "I'm stealing it" would he be altruistic?

Georger was really on a roll last night. I thought some good points were made. If it was propelled by any substance I want some for myself!

Larry was wrong in ruling out Nam vets and expert jumpers, but I see it more as an incorrect guess than a falsehood.

Law enforcement people like to project an "in control" image. Have you ever heard the cops say "we are just baffled" even when they are? Nope. It's more like "we have a profile and are actively pursuing leads at time." They sure overuse "at this time". It usually adds nothing, but listen to a police radio channel and hear how frequently it is used. And what about this "profile" stuff? What does it really mean? Has the efficacy of "profiling" ever been proven?

I have a prediction. In my lifetime Amelia Earhart's plane will be found and Cooper will be identified. Both are guesses of course and reflect my optimism more than any science or logic.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I have personal contact with a different kind of Nam vet, a former Vietnamese paratrooper who is married to a friend.

This man made military HALO jumps in Nam out of helicopters, but they were training not actual combat jumps. Combat jumps were few and all were static line. He is not a poser from what I can tell, knows all about the S/L and HALO gear and the aircraft too.

I am going to see if he knew about the Air America 727 jumps or the Billy W SOG type HALO jumps.

It wont tell us who Cooper was but it might tell us how far some of this 727 and US HALO info spread.

Any other questions you'd like posed to him?

377

Yeah:
- does HE think Cooper sounds like a Nam vet?
- does he have any opinion as to who Cooper was?
- if he was in Nam around the time does he know anyone who was on leave or AWOL at that time?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

georger said: "Remember Ckret took this mission on as an
after thought. Chasing Cooper 37 years late is NOT
Ckret's fulltime regular job, not even remotely."

My reaction is always "so what". I know others have other reactions.

yeah, we've been thru this a couple of times. Everyone has their own opinion.

Here, my actions are simplified. I only care about people to the extent they bring information, or stimulate the creation of information. Everyone has baggage, history, or reasons to be broken. I do. Everyone does. So what. Delving deeply into that isn't going to help anything other than make someone feel good.

If Ckret needs a pat on the back or something, then show up. I'll give it to him. Heck I throw a little towards Jerry, who would spit on me if we ever met.

In terms of bringing information or stimulating information:
For instance, SafecrackingPLF brought minimal stuff to the table. But he stimulated the early investigation into the unlikeliness of the money float theory, which was great, and he deserves a seat at the table forever as a result, and he can ramble on about any random thing he wants, in my opinion.

(edit) I guess my "so what" thinking is also supported by a belief that there is always someone else. If there was no Ckret, there'd be someone else.

[snowmman 3]

georger said "I have no "proof" of anything, but given normal rotation times and the dates in question, given
Waugh's rank and affiliations, I think its safe
to assume Mr. Waugh was very busy doing other things on the date in question and could prove "

I'm confused, georger. It seems like you didn't read my posts.
Why are you guessing about rotation times when there is better data available?

You're saying you don't believe Waugh was at Fort Bragg in November or December of 1971?

You're aware of when his orders ended, right? and how he was required to go to Fort Bragg when they ended? (the whole thing that played out, I posted about).

If you have detail that says he was in Vietnam in Nov. or Dec 1971, post it.

[snowmman 3]

While I've slammed H. a lot, I'm wondering if his interpretation of Cooper as "hardened criminal" etc...out for one last score...a hard man..etc was correct.

The problem may have been that SF folks, just coming off the field, basically were coming from situations very similar in actions to criminal gangs. Not a judgment on actions, but just forced into acting like that as a result of what they were doing.

This may have been specific to Waugh. That's what I felt in his writing, when I said he felt a little too thuggy.

So maybe Himmelsbach was right.

Also note the observation part of the RTs was all about controlled passive action.

[snowmman 3]

since you're gathering phrases, here's one I like that fits right now

"Don't leave wind, to find wind"

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I just received a PM from someone I met on the I-Net who has a “contract” with the FBI. He says (in response to my musings); “Cooper was never on the list because the FBI never identified who he was.”

I assume he is saying they never placed ANYONE on the list unless they had a positive I.D. I have never seen a John Doe on the list, but I can’t see why not. Do I care if a fugitive has a name or not? If they called James Earl Ray (not James Earl Jones) Jim Bob Smith, would that change his physical description, make him less recognizable, etc.? I remember seeing Cooper on “wanted posters” in the Post Office.

Also, it hit me after my last post that the FBI was in a major restructuring in 1972 – 1978. They lost J. Edgar Hoover in May of 1972. He was followed by two “Acting Directors.” L. Patrick Gray (May 3, 1972 – April 27, 1973) and William Ruckelshaus (April 30, 1973 – July 9, 1973). Then in 1973, Clarence M. Kelley was made Director and served July 9, 1973 – February 15, 1978.

By the time the money was found on Tena Bar, William H. Webster was the Director (February 23, 1978 – May 25, 1987).

So, from the hijacking to the Tena Bar find the FBI had 5 Directors/Acting Directors (6 if you count Ruckelshaus’ AD period). Could this have affected the NORJAK investigation? I honestly don’t know, but in my business that kind of discontinuity of leadership has an affect down to the bottom levels.

I wonder what Ckret’s take would be on this?

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Okay here's the proposed exchange.

Waugh, get on this thread/forum, and I'll help you find Osama Bin Laden. I'm learning to read Arabic right now. We'll get Quade to get DZ.com to support an Arabic character set. It'll be fun!

The money is there. Like Tom reported yesterday:
http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090723/BUSINESS/707239891/1005

[georger 255]

Larry was wrong in ruling out Nam vets and expert jumpers, but I see it more as an incorrect guess than a falsehood.
377

[Orange1 0]

Quote

They lost J. Edgar Hoover in May of 1972.

Oh my... it's been staring us right in the face all this time!

Hoover knew who Cooper was! He died only 6 months after the hijacking. The timing makes it obvious. He found out and was eliminated. The Conspiracy exists.

(Orange1 exits stage left, peering nervously over her shoulder.)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

georger said:
"The issue with Vietnam was Cooper's projected
age. Ckret was relying heavily on witness physical
descriptions of Cooper. He said those descriptions
were in tight agreement. "

I recently went thru my PMs. My very first PM was from Jo, imploring me to stop haranguing Larry about the age thing.

If you remember, I probed on "why" they thought Cooper was a certain age.

The net result of the "discussion" (actually lack of discussion :)
was Carr having a little humph-fit, and me deciding the data wasn't there to support a tight range on age, but that 40-50 was reasonable.

[georger 255]

Quote

I just received a PM from someone I met on the I-Net who has a “contract” with the FBI. He says (in response to my musings); “Cooper was never on the list because the FBI never identified who he was.”

I assume he is saying they never placed ANYONE on the list unless they had a positive I.D. I have never seen a John Doe on the list, but I can’t see why not. Do I care if a fugitive has a name or not? If they called James Earl Ray (not James Earl Jones) Jim Bob Smith, would that change his physical description, make him less recognizable, etc.? I remember seeing Cooper on “wanted posters” in the Post Office.

Also, it hit me after my last post that the FBI was in a major restructuring in 1972 – 1978. They lost J. Edgar Hoover in May of 1972. He was followed by two “Acting Directors.” L. Patrick Gray (May 3, 1972 – April 27, 1973) and William Ruckelshaus (April 30, 1973 – July 9, 1973). Then in 1973, Clarence M. Kelley was made Director and served July 9, 1973 – February 15, 1978.

By the time the money was found on Tena Bar, William H. Webster was the Director (February 23, 1978 – May 25, 1987).

So, from the hijacking to the Tena Bar find the FBI had 5 Directors/Acting Directors (6 if you count Ruckelshaus’ AD period). Could this have affected the NORJAK investigation? I honestly don’t know, but in my business that kind of discontinuity of leadership has an affect down to the bottom levels.

I wonder what Ckret’s take would be on this?

Ive talked about organisational issues before.

The loss of leadership at the top, or disorganisation
at the top, tends to reinforce standard protocols
and working relationships in an organisation for
those who have the responsibility for enforcing standard protocols & keeping things together.
I would assume Regional Supervisors assumed more organisational power (as they usually do during periods of transition).

Where was H and his supervisor in the organisational chart during this period? I have wondered about that also -

Put another way: like the old highschool cheer goes...
Harry can do it he's our man. If Harry cant do it
Charly can. Charly Charly he's our man, if Charly
cont do it, Bobby can ... and so on.

But put the spotlight on airlines also, during this
period. Cooper's stunt starts with the airlines. The
FBI came on the scene only after the mess was
already created!

[377 22]

I have seen a lot of police drawings that end up looking nothing like the person who is later proven to have committed the crime, so I have never put a lot of faith in the accuracy of the FBI Cooper drawings.

However, Billy W looks so much like the drawings. He is a much better match than Gosset who was a pretty decent match.

Can we make anything from it? I keep looking at the pics side by side and see so many similarities, but then I tell myself we really dont know how accurate the Cooper drawings are. The witnesses thought the drawings were accurate, but so did the witnesses in the cases I saw where the drawings later proved to be way off the mark

Wish we could have the ticket clerk look at the Billy W photos. I am trying to get Flo to look at them but no contact so far.

I have really tried to find other Petersons and Waughs but come up empty. Snow has the touch.

Jo's latest posts seem to be waffling on the certainty of the proof she has that her deceased husband was Cooper. Maybe she is preparing us for something far less probative than what she teased us with. That won't be a big surprise.

Counting down to National Geographic. Using an Alaska Airlines MD 80 is tacky. I could have found them a 727 with a pax interior. The boneyards are full of em.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

They lost J. Edgar Hoover in May of 1972.

Oh my... it's been staring us right in the face all this time!

Hoover knew who Cooper was! He died only 6 months after the hijacking. The timing makes it obvious. He found out and was eliminated. The Conspiracy exists.

(Orange1 exits stage left, peering nervously over her shoulder.)

Plaster touches on how the Kennedy assassination screwed with things in flight for the military in Vietnam.

If you want to extend the conspiracy, also include the 1963 murder followed by coup, of President Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam.

Here's a foia cia doc reporting that event
"The Coup in South Vietnam"
http://www.foia.cia.gov/browse_docs.asp?doc_no=0000287564

This material contains information affecting the national defense of the United States within the meaning of the Espionage Laws, Title 18, USC, Sections 793 and 794. The transmission or revelation of which in any manner to an unauthorized person is prohibited by law.

[georger 255]

However, Billy W looks so much like the drawings. He is a much better match than Gosset who was a pretty decent match.
377

[snowmman 3]

Quote

However, Billy W looks so much like the drawings. He is a much better match than Gosset who was a pretty decent match.
377

Illustrate. Which drawing? Proof.

[georger 255]

Quote

Quote

However, Billy W looks so much like the drawings. He is a much better match than Gosset who was a pretty decent match.
377

Illustrate. Which drawing? Proof.

georger, you were the guy with the contact that had the fancy computer comparison machine.

we could just gather up the images, and send them to your guy, and he'll give us back a number.

Don't need 377's interpretation.

Why would you rely on 377's interpretation if you're looking for "data"....the data is the images. You have them.

Process them any way you like. 377 already has (his eyes and mind). You disagree. So find another process.