DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

I posted many images.
My personal rule is don't do free work for anyone unless there's a good chance of return.

You'll have to crawl thru the post history yourself.
sorry.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Yes,

I posted them.

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[georger 256]

  Quote

I posted many images.
My personal rule is don't do free work for anyone unless there's a good chance of return.

You'll have to crawl thru the post history yourself.
sorry.

well Waugh is 377 and your arguement. You guys defend it?

Snowman Snowman he's our man - if he cant do it
377 can!

Im not even sure of the history of the rightmost
FBI photo - one released at Reno before the leftmost
photo issued at Portland became the standard FBI
portrait of Cooper? Of the leftmost square jaw
stocky Cooper photo, I know nothing.

[georger 256]

  Quote

Yes,

I posted them.

Nice guy! well, so what is the history of the square jawed
stocky Cooper .... ??? sketch released at Reno???

I know nothing about this -

[snowmman 3]

georger, you're so funny.
you say "well Waugh is 377 and your arguement. You guys defend it?"

to some degree, you have Carr disease, i.e. you focus on personalities. Do you really have a shrink background? If so, it feels like you suffer from academia, or too-restricted field experience. ???

The Waugh issue exists independent of me.
I don't have to do anything! And it still exists!

[georger 256]

  Quote

georger, you're so funny.
you say "well Waugh is 377 and your arguement. You guys defend it?"

to some degree, you have Carr disease, i.e. you focus on personalities. Do you really have a shrink background? If so, it feels like you suffer from academia, or too-restricted field experience. ???

The Waugh issue exists independent of me.
I don't have to do anything! And it still exists!

Existential and logical fallacies are value empty -
in your Maldum Fornax.

[377 22]

The ones you posted are the ones I keep looking at Snow. Of course its very subjective, but I see some detail matches in the chin morphology, ears, upper and lower lip size ratios, hairline, face shape etc. Also they just look a lot alike in general. I can imagine someone seeing Billy and guiding an artist to a drawing that looks a lot like the one you posted on the left. Is that one that Jo claimed that Gosset modified or is it the original FBI drawing?

Anyhow, Waugh looks like most of the Cooper drawings that have been posted. His old age photo looks like the artificially aged Cooper photo if that is worth anything.

Can you tell what color Billy's eyes are? Do they match the witness descriptions of Coopers eye color?

Lets see what some software can do with the image corrrelations.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I have posed questions to Ckret (in personal communications, NOT professional communications) something like this:


If the early investigators had known about the covert 727 (and C-130) insertions into Laos and Cambodia, would they have had a different attitude about what was reasonable and/or unreasonable decisions on Cooper's part?


His response has been (consistently): "No! It would not change MY mind, I don't know about the original investigators."


He sometimes presents a well-thought-out argument with real-world examples that, on one level, make a lot of sense. But, he still displays what I call "his blind spot" with regard to Cooper's actions, based ONLY on what we know.


He usually says something like: He thinks there are "go" and "no go" conditions, in his opinion Cooper went on a "no go".


One time he used MY OWN TRAINING as an example, saying, if I decided to "go dark" and use my skills for evil deeds, I wouldn't abandon the rules I had used to be sucessful. He says that he doesn't believe I would "half-ass" it and throw away the core rules that I had been trained to. He doesn't think I would, he thinks I would use my training to my advantage, not disadvantage.


He sees Cooper as someone who did things halfass, he says I should compare Cooper to McCoy.


He feels, it did not take a skilled person to get as far as Cooper did in his crime. He believes that back then if you made a demand it was complied with and that was common knowledge. It took limited knowledge to jump, die and disappear. It took considerable knowledge to jump, live and disappear.


It is my intention to argue with him until I wear him down OR he files charges against me for harassing a Federal Agent.

One of us is right... one of us is wrong. I don't care who is right as long as it leads to a solution.


BTW: I have asked (the FBI) for a high-res version of the LV "Initial Sketch" maybe some explaination will come with it.

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Here's the sketch that I find interesting.

Compare the "age progressed" sketch to the LV "Initial Sketch" (previously posted).

See the wide flat mouth?

All the other later sketches (including the sinister ones) have a narrow mouth with pursed lips.

Hmmm?

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[snowmman 3]

Sluggo said of Carr
"He sees Cooper as someone who did things halfass,"

I think we all suffer from unshared perspectives, based on differing life experiences.

Once you've seen people succeed, given some arbitrary goal, using methods that are "obviously" half-assed, while people following the "everyone knows is right" method fail, then it's easy to accept that a perception of method being "half-assed" doesn't mean squat, in terms of predicting goal success or failure.

Right?

Or maybe everyone's experience is that people using half-assed methods fail, and people using "the right way" succeed?

Maybe a pole vaulter would think that way, since that's a process honed over many generations, each building on the previous, creating a "right way"...in pole vaulting, I suspect you don't see many "half-assed" methods succeed, because it's so refined, and a relatively simple controlled event.

When you have complex events/goals, there are no guaranteed methods (witness McCoy's failure) and so "half-assed" assessments of method are worthless.

The real question: Does other data suggest Cooper may have succeeded? If so, then it's possible Cooper was "half-assed" but still succeeded. (Because we're not talking about pole-vaulting).

Summary: You cannot apply a label of "half-assed" until you have many iterations of the experiment, with reliable fail/succeed data. There aren't enough iterations of the Cooper experiment, to understand what "half-assed" or not, would mean.

[snowmman 3]

In reading about these other SF guys, and comparing to Waugh, Waugh might have been a bit halfass.

A lot of his "status" I think is based on him talking himself up, and guys just liking him in general...him being the old guy. People respect someone who appears to have survived in high risk situations. The assumption is that it means the guy is "good".

He ran Covey or FAC a lot, and did a lot of bright light recovery. If you're the guy on the ground, I think you would have a lot of respect for the guys who you felt watched out for you, saved your ass.

In terms of missions, I really need more information, but I'm wondering if, compared to all the 1-0's, Waugh was downscale..a little halfass.

Don Valentine said Waugh was stupid. Didn't anyone read Don Valentine's account of training with Waugh?

I don't know where all you guys, especially georger, get your opinions of SF guys and operations.

Me, I read a lot. I don't know if you guys read anything or have first hand knowledge, or read comic books, or are just full of shit?

[snowmman 3]

Sluggo would fail if he tried anything evil.
So Sluggo is a bad example.
Sure he has knowledge. But something like a hijack isn't just about knowledge. Motivation is primary.

Sluggo doesn't have the evil gene.

[snowmman 3]

Sluggo said Carr said
"He sees Cooper as someone who did things halfass, he says I should compare Cooper to McCoy."

This idea drives me insane, as I've said many times. Carr wants us to think there's some common interpretation of McCoy.

Okay Mr. Carr. Let's compare Cooper to McCoy. What's the comparison? I've stated what I thought the comparison is.

What does Carr think the comparison is?

Oh I forgot. Carr is jerking off at his desk talking smack.

[snowmman 3]

If Carr thought Cooper had no skills, why did Carr think there was any value in posting at a skydiving site?

I don't follow that at all.

Seems half-assed. Why would a trained FBI agent do something so half-assed?

[skyjack71 0]

You guys are too far over my head in every respect, but I am posting an original scan of the Cooper Composites with no alterations that the FBI provided me in 1998. In fact they sent the Bing Crosby Look alike and the Ben Gazzara one with and without glasses.

PS 377:
I am not teasing nor was I backing away from anything. The FBI neither has the time nor money to do what we are doing. The only problem with what we are doing is the government will not recognize the extensive searching and interviews that go with our information...because they won't get credit for this find.

After this week I will know more than I know right now, but all of the cards will be on the table. All we can do is present this to the FBI and see WHAT they do with it. We will need time to get this information into a written format to present to the FBI and to others - then I am sure you guys will have fun tearing it apart, but that is OK.

Things I have requested of the FBI time after time and the FBI agents just scoffed at are being done. After this wk there is one other thing that has to be taken care of - and CARR knows what that is.

The next paragraph may or may not apply to the above:


Due to past discretions many Americans no longer trust our own governing bodies. Why not acknowledge past omissions and mistakes done in the name of national security - then go fourth with a new and direct approach that will build the confidence of our citizens in our governing forces. It is time for change.

PS Couldn't find the Bing Crosby composite on my pics. I do have the original if you need for me to rescan it.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

skyjack71 consoled: "The only problem with what we are doing is the government will not recognize the extensive searching and interviews.."

whew! actually that's great. Means the sex and drugs and payoffs won't be disclosed either. And those unauthorized computer accesses...those weren't probes, they were cosmic ray events.

All easily explained away.

(edit) oh wait a sec, maybe it was just 377 that was authorized for the brothel insertion.

[georger 256]

He sees Cooper as someone who did things halfass, he says I should compare Cooper to McCoy.


He feels, it did not take a skilled person to get as far as Cooper did in his crime. He believes that back then if you made a demand it was complied with and that was common knowledge. It took limited knowledge to jump, die and disappear. It took considerable knowledge to jump, live and disappear.

[snowmman 3]

mod +20 funniest

:)


Georger has embraced wit!

[377 22]

  Quote

"Dan. Is there really a Hell?". Dan looked
deeply into Tina's eyes and replied, "Yes Tina. Hell
is other people".

Damn, Georger, you are really waxing eloquent these days.

Tina contemplated Dan's remarks and proceeded to cloister herself in a nunnery, exposing her soul to the smallest part of hell possible short of complete isolation.

I think a play could be written based loosely on the Mucklow-Cooper relationship. Brief, but highly charged with drama and poignant human interaction.

Could Georger actually be working on such a project?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

funny, 377.

If I was head of the FBI, I'd order signs for all the local offices:

"Business is great, except for those damn citizens"

I know it would help business to be twice as great!

[377 22]

  Quote

(edit) oh wait a sec, maybe it was just 377 that was authorized for the brothel insertion.

It's been done, 1979. Any analogs in rock/ice climbing?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1542349;search_string=frans%20ranch;#1542349

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

I pay no mind to you guys, but I did get those composites added to my last post for you. They are to scale and un-altered.

Don't worry we are not tilling up dirt, but trying to level the playing field. Omissions were made yrs ago - that doesn't mean that those that followed had any knowledge of these hidden agendas or what-ever you might consider them.

I have been reading over the different "suspects" you guys presented. Now stop and think about this for a moment. Those guys would have required a "cover-up" more so than an ex-con and small time thief like Weber.

"AH SO - no need to make fun of crazy old lady" say Wise Old China Man. "These guys taking shower with their clothes on"!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

skyjack71 "These guys taking shower with their clothes on"

how else do you wash your clothes?

Makes sense to me.

(edit) Jo said:
"Those guys would have required a "cover-up" more so than an ex-con and small time thief like Weber."

I don't follow that at all.
If you're saying there was no reason to cover up Weber, because Weber was nobody. Yes.
Same with Sheridan. He was nobody.
The only guy where there might be motive to look the other way, because exposing was worse than not exposing: Waugh.

I don't know about Gossett. Maybe he was going to jump with the nuke from Sluggo between his legs? So maybe coverup possibility for Gossett too.

Barb Dayton: Yes, Coverup. Himmelsbach wouldn't want to admit a girly man hijacked 305.

[377 22]

Wish Roger Nelson was still alive. He was a DZO who got into aerial drug smuggling. I wonder what he thought about Cooper? I bet he had a few ideas.

Snow and Georger will both enjoy this excerpt from Nelson's biographical novel. Ham radio HF gear was used to communicate with his drug hauling aircraft.

http://www.sugaralpha.com/4301.html

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

uh, I think Roger was a little more than just a DZO, right?
Cool the C-130 came from South Africa. How come everything is always related to South Africa? (and the families turn out to be devout Christians?)

background:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Nelson_(skydiver)

Supposedly he tried to weasel out of it saying he was providing tips to the DEA
He even said he was working undercover for DEA...listen to this dumb-ass lie at his trial: (they closed the trial because they were worried about threats to witnesses).

He even said the DEA provided him with gear.

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=CSTB&p_theme=cstb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB36D5010F67730&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

"Champion skydiver and accused drug smuggler Roger Nelson maintained yesterday that a moral aversion to communism played a role in his decision to become a federal Drug Enforcement Administration informant.

Nelson, 31, who runs a skydiving school in Sandwich, Ill., insisted that concern over impending criminal charges was secondary to his worry that "communists and idealists were getting into the drug trade."

His explanation came during a hearing before U.S...."

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/24870047.html?dids=24870047:24870047&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Feb+07%2C+1987&author=Roxanne+Brown&pub=Chicago+Tribune+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=INFORMANT+SAYS+DEA+DIDN%27T+ACT+IN+DRUG+TIPS&pqatl=google

Roger Nelson, an alleged drug smuggler-turned government informant, testified Friday that he and a group of other Bahamas-based pilots provided information to federal agents to make seizures of "over 4,000 pounds of cocaine in four days, and they missed them all."

Testifying during a hearing on a motion to dismiss Chicago drug charges against him, Nelson said that Miami-based federal agents for the Drug Enforcement Administration failed to act on several tips that would have netted them several drug-smuggling suspects and the 4,000 pounds of cocaine.

Nelson said one of those tips, in September, 1985, involved an alleged planned delivery of cocaine by Carlos Lehder Rivas, a narcotics underworld kingpin who was seized in Colombia and arraigned Thursday in Florida on drug charges.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/24613223.html?dids=24613223:24613223&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=May+16%2C+1987&author=William+B+Crawford+Jr&pub=Chicago+Tribune+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Skydiver+gets+10+years+in+drug+smuggling&pqatl=google

A onetime world-champion skydiver who pleaded guilty to leading a huge drug-smuggling ring that brought millions of dollars worth of cocaine and heroin into the Chicago area was sentenced to 10 years in prison Friday.

U.S. District Judge Paul Plunkett imposed the sentence on Roger Nelson, 31, former operator of a skyjumping school at Sandwich, after a long hearing in which Plunkett said he was puzzled by Nelson and his drug-dealing.

Assistant U.S. Atty. Scott Mendeloff had asked for a 15-year prison sentence. Mendeloff charged that despite promises to do so, Nelson had not cooperated fully with federal drug enforcement agents to help expose other drug rings of which he had knowledge.

from elsewhere:

In May of 1986 Nelson and several others were indicted on drug smuggling charges. He pleaded guilty on March 4, 1987 after plea bargaining. Nelson claimed his involvement was part of an agreement with DEA. Many jumpers and drop zone operators criticized Nelson for his illegal activities as it cast a bad image for skydiving to the general public.

Much of the drug money was supposedly used to purchase state of the art student equipment and fund the C-130 at the 1986 convention. The C-130 cost $120,000 in ferry fees from South Africa, $3,000 per day plus fuel and $11,000 motel fee for the crew.

The 120-way built on the 11th try from 18,000 ft on Aug. 11th. The C-130 was used as the aircraft. The formation was held for 3.01 seconds and then part of it funneled.