DB Cooper

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I don’t know exactly why/how snowmman draws his conclusions about the nature of the investigation in the “early years,” but I have a considerably different read on it.

If you have read my blogs and other posts, you know that I think the investigation in general was botched, mainly because of biases of some of the lead investigators. However, being a “botched investigation” is not the same as “failure to investigate.”

Whether the investigation was driven by “leads/tips” or by proactive efforts coming from some sort of “think-tank or steering committee” is irrelevant to me.

This article indicates to me the FBI was investigating every possibility that they were aware of and which might have lead to a conclusion.

Now, I have to tread carefully here… least I begin to sound like Jo. So, you read it just as I state it. I have reason to believe the FBI knew about the SF-SOG activities in Viet Nam by as early as 1972. I came by this information since the conversation I had with Ckret (and posted last night). I don’t want to hear a lot of shit about my standards for proof being low… the fact is, I have no proof. But, I trust the person who told me. All information EVER gained from this person has checked out.

I too, wonder if Waugh and others were actually interviewed. I hope snowmman, Orange1, and georger, in their searches about the Viet Nam era will uncover more evidence that SF-SOG personnel were given careful, thorough, and serious scrutiny.

I don’t have much faith in composite sketches. I think a composite sketch (i.e. a sketch produced from multiple witness descriptions) of a suspect is like a horse built by a committee… it looks an awful lot like a camel!

However, the sketches have to be dealt with. Right now, my focus is on the so-called “Initial Sketch” from the Las Vegas office. I want better images and a description of it’s origin. I keep thinking about the old adage; “The first impression is usually the most correct.” Maybe this applies to sketches as well.

And… just for the record… I don’t think Ckret is (or was) “Full of Shit.” From my point of view he was the person who provided the public with the most information about NORJAK in 36 years. He did this while swimming up-stream against a bureaucracy that only a “Guv’ment Worker” would understand.

In my opinion, the only mistake Ckret made (on DZ.com) was ID-ing himself as an FBI Agent. He should have said he had a contact in the FBI, and was getting his materials from him. THEN, maybe the posters here would not have held him to a different standard, than they held themselves.

And, if that sounds like “ass-kissing,” so be it. I’d rather kiss the ass of someone I respect, than have my ass kissed by someone I don’t.

Maybe I really don’t have the “evil” gene.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Sluggo said "I have reason to believe the FBI knew about the SF-SOG activities in Viet Nam by as early as 1972. "

Sluggo. You should never assume you're ahead of the pack. Always assume you're playing catchup. It's a better way to control the risk of being wrong.

So the next questions to ask:
1) Was Waugh investigated?
2) If so, did someone actively decide to stop looking in that direction?
3) SOG info was destroyed. Were the HALO jumps first described in public in 1995?
4) When were the first photos of Waugh from 1971 made available?
5) Has Waugh's fingerprints and DNA ever been compared to what the FBI has?
6) If Waugh is not worth investigating today, what kind of suspect would the FBI investigate?
7) If the answer is "The FBI won't investigate anyone", then why spend the time on making FBI movies ..e.g. the one with Tom Kaye which is up on the FBI channel on youtube, etc..and all the press releases on the FBI page? Are they expecting Cooper to just show up and say "It's me, here's the proof?" Is that even a remote possibility?

And the most important question
8) What can we do to make sure Cousin Brucie can write some good articles, maybe a book, minimally stay employed and keep the electricity on?

[snowmman 3]

If SOG was good to investigate in 1972, what new data or analysis changed SOG into not good to investigate at some later date?

For instance: 2008

When Larry Carr quotes "experts" as the basis for the that change in direction, are the experts correct? and based on what?

From what Larry Carr has said, it seems like it's just speculation.

That's okay.

Did the switch in focus happen purely randomly based on wild speculation?

[skyjack71 0]

Snow said:

Quote

Can we review why it makes sense that loadmaster is the current FBI profile? I wonder why loadmasters aren't offended. Do loadmaster vet organizations shrug and say "Yeah, it was probably a loadmaster".

Snowmman it makes no difference what anyone said at any given time. If you will notice going back and reading Carr's post....he embraces the ideas of others and uses them. You will also notice that the FBI site gave NO credit to the person or media introducing the Dan Cooper comics or to the forum for their orginal idea that Cooper could have been a LoadMaster. Carr took the bow for that on the FBI site.

I wonder how many gullible young kids who are researching Cooper for a term paper will use this information as fact...just because it makes for an interesting read.If that article is an example of what the FBI is allowing to be placed on their WANTED or UNSOLVED crime pages - the FBI as an Investigative Organization is back in Kindergarten.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Jo: I know you've focused on the comic thing with the FBI.

I have a serious question. Aren't black and white comics much better than color comics? I mean isn't my avatar way better than the Dan Cooper comic book on the FBI web page?

I'm just saying.

[skyjack71 0]

I think you avatar is interesting. Perhaps it is personal on my behalf...because the picture reminds me of a guy with a last name that sounded something like Nally but not spelled that way. A memory taken off the Old Bardstown Rd in Ky.

Your Avatar also eludes a bit of mystery and hints at more to come - might be more appropriate for the FBI site than the Dan Cooper Comics.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

When I posted about the new single rule, and Orange1 responded with an appropriate quote, I got to thinking...there can't be just one rule. There must be more.

Luckily for everyone, I found the rules. Had to go to S-21 in Cambodia.

As a public service, pic attached.

Straighten up and fly right, everyone!

[georger 256]

Quote

I don’t know exactly why/how snowmman draws his conclusions about the nature of the investigation in the “early years,” but I have a considerably different read on it.

If you have read my blogs and other posts, you know that I think the investigation in general was botched, mainly because of biases of some of the lead investigators. However, being a “botched investigation” is not the same as “failure to investigate.”

Whether the investigation was driven by “leads/tips” or by proactive efforts coming from some sort of “think-tank or steering committee” is irrelevant to me.

This article indicates to me the FBI was investigating every possibility that they were aware of and which might have lead to a conclusion.

Now, I have to tread carefully here… least I begin to sound like Jo. So, you read it just as I state it. I have reason to believe the FBI knew about the SF-SOG activities in Viet Nam by as early as 1972. I came by this information since the conversation I had with Ckret (and posted last night). I don’t want to hear a lot of shit about my standards for proof being low… the fact is, I have no proof. But, I trust the person who told me. All information EVER gained from this person has checked out.

I too, wonder if Waugh and others were actually interviewed. I hope snowmman, Orange1, and georger, in their searches about the Viet Nam era will uncover more evidence that SF-SOG personnel were given careful, thorough, and serious scrutiny.

I don’t have much faith in composite sketches. I think a composite sketch (i.e. a sketch produced from multiple witness descriptions) of a suspect is like a horse built by a committee… it looks an awful lot like a camel!

However, the sketches have to be dealt with. Right now, my focus is on the so-called “Initial Sketch” from the Las Vegas office. I want better images and a description of it’s origin. I keep thinking about the old adage; “The first impression is usually the most correct.” Maybe this applies to sketches as well.

And… just for the record… I don’t think Ckret is (or was) “Full of Shit.” From my point of view he was the person who provided the public with the most information about NORJAK in 36 years. He did this while swimming up-stream against a bureaucracy that only a “Guv’ment Worker” would understand.

In my opinion, the only mistake Ckret made (on DZ.com) was ID-ing himself as an FBI Agent. He should have said he had a contact in the FBI, and was getting his materials from him. THEN, maybe the posters here would not have held him to a different standard, than they held themselves.

And, if that sounds like “ass-kissing,” so be it. I’d rather kiss the ass of someone I respect, than have my ass kissed by someone I don’t.

Maybe I really don’t have the “evil” gene.

The issue from the beginning has been where did
Cooper bail and land. The truth is: Nobody knows.
If they knew this case would have been closed long
ago. Evidence is not that hard to find. If it exists at
all!

The evidence does not exist because a decision
was made, consciously or unconsciously, to wait
until evidence presented itself. The search for hard evidence (Cooper & the money) stopped almost immediately after the Lake Merwin search failed.

I believe the decision to stop the hard search was made as an overt act of avoidance by certain people wishing to avoid what they feared most -
that Cooper had survived, at least long enough to
move for a time trying to escape. The premature
decision that "Cooper died" has been central to
the FBI's whole case, and it is the one thing the
FBI has never wanted to be proven wrong.

A decision was made to do nothing and wait. Then
the money turned up on its own, at Tina Bar. People
scrambled, literally! Once again a very poor investigation followed in haste, perhaps purposefully
rushed, but with a big flurry and many people involved
(just as at Lake Merwin). It is almost as if they wished the money to be buried again so it could vanish under a poor investigation, avoiding the central issues at stake.

A team of 3-5 people could have done a better job at Tina Bar vrs. the mob and the roadshow that was assembled, for media consumption. At every stage "somebody" in the FBI has been calling the wrong
shots, almost as if trying to prove something in a
great display of power and prowess, but avoiding slow methodical sober investigative technique in the process
- and the roadshow continues to this very day. It all adds up to AVOIDANCE.

Ocam's Razor has been dulled to the point that it
looks like an old rusty nail from the 1800s!

The avoidance is: that Cooper died, was an halfass,
and didn't get away even for the space of a few hours.
The Washougal Washdown Theory is part-and-parcel
of that same worn out petard. A power struggle has even developed to protect the cherished old theory.

The problem with the Washougal washdown theory
is that is forces us to accept a series of very complex
low probability events over time, in order to get
anything to Tina Bar. And it preserves the "he died"
theory Himmelsbach has promoted since Day-1.
Larry Carr's rationalisations are simply an extension
of the Himmelsbach theory. I thought Larry was smarter!

The condition of the money at Tina Bar does not support the long complex washdown theory required
by the Washougal theory. I dont even believe Palmer
believed the theory, but was simply parroting a theory
which others had already suggested. Because there
is nothing that connects Tina Bar with the Washougal
exclusively. There is literally nothing in the money
that cries "I came from the Washougal". And there
are other aspects of the money which suggest 'I
could not have traveled that far and survived a
highly destructive trip lasting years'.

I have no doubt the money was deposited at Tina
Bar by hydrological flow. The only question is from
where and when. I think it was a relatively short travel
distance, and that implies Cooper did not die and moved (perhaps trying to get back to Portland for
help) after his jump.

The money did not come from the Washougal. The money came from Cooper. Cooper was in flight. He
may have been injured but he still had the money
up to some point. The money was protected for
some time thereafter still in its container, but not
in the Washougal. Once the money or some remnant of the money was at Tina Bar the money took on
unmistakable traits of being at Tina Bar.

I have no problem and several reasons for believing the money may have arrived at Tina Bar in the period
1978-80, but not from the Washougal. I believe the
Palmer report is incomplete. I believe there is more
evidence in his strata photos than Palmer chose to
unravel - because he was working to produce a quick result for people who wanted a quick simple result
that fit their preconceptions.

I believe any "objective" analysis of the data
will support these points of view, whether conducted
by Mr. Kaye or whoever else. I have reservations
that a diatom analysis will prove anything other than
the money was a Tina Bar - for a long period of time.
I also happen to believe that an isotope analysis will prove the money has no known association with the Washougal.

And I believe this is the last thing the FBI wants to hear.

[snowmman 3]

full article and photos at
http://ngothelinh.tripod.com/the_lost_commandos.html

ON THE TRAIN RIDE FROM PRISON, NHI HUNG DINH SAW HIS COUNTRY for the first time in 18 years. He would never forget the view. Rubble, bombed-out buildings and craters scarred the landscape. Conditions were so squalid in Vinh, a major port in the panhandle of northern Vietnam, that he did not want to get off the train to stretch his legs. The people seemed listless, and Dinh spotted pickpockets among the waiting passengers. It was 1982, seven years after the end of the Vietnam War, but much of the city was still in ruin-the target of some of the conflict's heaviest naval and aerial bombardment.

His train headed south across the Demilitarized Zone, which once split Vietnam into two countries, and pulled into Hue. In 1968, the Viet Cong had ushered in Tet, the Asian lunar New Year, by turning this lovely old town of palaces and temples into a bloody battleground. Shell-pocked buildings still lined the streets, and Dinh saw Amerasian youths selling fruits, cookies and black market cigarettes. He wondered who would raise them. Their fathers, American GIs, had left long ago. It was the same all the way to Ho Chi Minh City, which Dinh had known as Saigon.

At the end of the 700-mile journey, he stood in disbelief outside his family's home in the peaceful seaside town of Vung Tau. It was 10 in the evening. More than 20 years before, he had left the house a cocky, hotheaded young man bolstered, he says, by an American military adviser's promise that he would be a hero. Now, Dinh was returning, middle-aged and in ill health. There would be no hero's welcome-no one was expecting him.

The two police officers who had escorted him from prison pounded on the door and announced Dinh's arrival. There was some commotion inside, and Dinh heard members of his family cursing. They refused to open the door. A brother-in-law flatly accused him of being an impostor. His 75-year-old mother was convinced he must be a ghost. "You're dead, son, go on your way, and I will pray for your soul," she said through the door.

There was no reason for her to think otherwise. Almost two decades before, South Vietnamese military officials had told her that Dinh had been killed during a mission. Where, they would not say. It was a secret. After that, the family received death benefits courtesy of the U.S. government. The lump sum amounted to a year of Dinh's pay-about $300.

Not knowing what else to do, Dinh continued to knock on the door and insist that he was who he said he was. "Soul nothing! He's home!" yelled one of the officers. Finally, the bolt slid back, and his mother realized that the man outside was indeed her son. She wept and collapsed in his arms. Dinh sank into a chair, too numb to speak. It had been so long.

Dinh had been a member of Team Romeo, a commando unit of 10 young Vietnamese, trained, paid and commanded by the U.S. government. For almost a decade, beginning in 1961, he and at least 700 men like him, by one estimate, were sent to wage guerrilla warfare in North Vietnam, first by the Central Intelligence Agency and later by the U.S. Army. Those who were not killed were captured and left to languish for decades in Communist prison camps. Now, the survivors are slowly emerging, bringing with them haunting questions about a top-secret operation that U.S. military leaders admit was a debacle and that might have helped trigger the United States' fateful decision in 1964 to dramatically escalate the Vietnam War.

According to the military, former intelligence officials, historians and the commandos themselves, these men were part of a highly classified operation-which came to be called Operation 34A by the military-that continued from 1961 to 1970 despite repeated failures and the doubts of U.S. leaders. Sedgwick Tourison, an investigator for the Senate Select Committee on POW-MIA Affairs, says that since 1979, hundreds of the former agents and commandos have been released from prison. Many have made their way to the homes of astonished relatives in Vietnam who had been told years before that their loved ones had perished. Between 50 and 60 former commandos are thought to have fled Vietnam for the United States. The rest remain in Southeast Asian refugee camps or in Vietnam, where they are treated as second-class citizens.

Their actual numbers are hard to determine. Much of the documentation about the operations remains secret in military record centers, and what has been declassified provides only a glimpse of what happened to them. In an attempt to locate American MIAs in Vietnam, Tourison says that during the mid- to late 1980s he interviewed nearly all the former commandos living in the United States. From those and other interviews he estimates that 400 to 450 CIA and military operatives, out of a total of about 700, are still living. Dale Andrade, a historian for the government's Center for Military History in Washington, says his best estimate is that 200 to 300 men participated in the 34A part of the operation.

But if the numbers are open to question, the disastrous outcome is not. "It was not worth the effort at all, in my appraisal," retired U.S. Army Gen. William C. Westmoreland, who commanded U.S. ground forces in Vietnam from 1964 to 1968, says of the program. "It was just not productive. We grew skeptical of the teams and skeptical of the intelligence they produced. Not much was contributed to the war effort."

The cost of that failure has been borne by the commandos for years. Imprisoned for war crimes, they endured psychological torture, malnutrition, isolation and living conditions designed to break their spirits or kill them. In refugee camps, they watched as other South Vietnamese who had only spent a couple of years in re-education camps were allowed to emigrate long before they were. Those who came to the United States have had difficulty adapting to the culture. Some still eat only one small meal a day-their prison regimen is hard to shake-and many suffer from medical problems. A few have found meaningful work, but many now live on welfare or the generosity of friends, family or their former comrades. All have sacrificed their youth, and betrayal is a common word among them.

The United States did little, if anything, to seek the commandos' release from prison during the Paris peace talks in 1973 and has not given them veterans benefits for their service. "There is no question who we are," says Ngung Van Le, a former commando who spent almost 17 years in prison and immigrated to Baltimore in 1985. "We fought for our country, but from my standpoint, the United States must do more than just turn its back on us."


....
By 1968, the last 34A team had been sent into North Vietnam; according to Tourison it was dropped by mistake on top of an enemy anti-aircraft installation. Two years later, the teams had all been killed or captured, or were working for the enemy. "The Vietnamese were helpful and brave, but it just did not work," Colby says. "I tried to turn it off after a year or two. Yet, the military wanted to make a fresh start. I don't think they were very effective. But in war, you try everything you can."

...
John Madison, now a retired U.S. Army colonel, who headed a U.S. delegation sent to Vietnam to assure the return of American prisoners of war, says he does not recall that the commandos were ever mentioned to him nor was his delegation instructed to inquire about them.

...
SEVEN YEARS AFTER THE Paris peace talks, Guong Duc Vu, now 54, was among the first commandos to escape from prison and make it to the United States. For 10 years, he has lived with his wife, mother and three children in a roach-infested, two-room flat in Chicago that is bare except for a bed salvaged from the garbage and a shelf of religious icons.

Vu was a member of a commando team sent on raids along the North Vietnamese coast. His first three missions had to be aborted. On his fourth and final raid in March, 1964, Vu was captured after his team could not find the patrol craft it was supposed to sink. "We were trying to find another target when some other boats came into view," Vu recalls. "Their guns opened fire. One of our men was killed and another was hit." After a month on the run, he and another team member were captured while they were trying to walk back to South Vietnam.

For 16 years, Vu lived in a filthy thatched prison hut and supplemented his daily ration of barley with snakes, cockroaches and mice. When that wasn't enough, he cinched banana leaves around his midsection to relieve the hunger pangs.

Vu says that in 1980 he was transferred to another camp, where prisoners occasionally received temporary passes to visit relatives. After one furlough, Vu did not return, becoming a fugitive and risking a longer prison term. He joined the exodus of more than a million Vietnamese who left the impoverished nation by boat or dangerous overland routes to reach U.N. refugee camps. Some drowned as overcrowded vessels capsized in heavy seas. Others simply vanished on jungle trails.

(edit) 2nd pic
Mr. William Colby (Saigon Station Chief ) talking to So Bac 'long-term' agents before their mission to the North. He was Chief of 45B Bureau - Special Branch (Truong Phong 45B, So Lien Lac, Phu Tong Thong).

[snowmman 3]

Northern Service long-term agents (So Phong Ve Duyen Hai) in Da Nang.
Team BULL Leader - Northern Service, Mr. Nguyen Duc Nhon is far left in the front row.
Commanded by Colonel Linh, agents were inserted North by PT Boats or by C-46 transport.
Special Branch and SOG inserted more than 500 agents in North Vietnam from 1958 to 1970.

2nd pic is a good pic of Camp Long Thanh, were a lot of training took place (mentioned before in the thread)

[snowmman 3]

Billy Waugh retired in 1972
He started working for the Post Office in 1975
He started working for Wilson/Libya in 1977

Where was he from 1972-1975?

I hate gaps in people's lives.

from his book, saying he started at the P.O. in 1975
"found myself back in Texas in 1975, needing to make some money, so I went to work for the US Postal Service. It seemed like worthy employment, "

This page also details that the Libya thing started with a phone call on July 20, 1977. In other places he mentiones 1976, but that seems incorrect.
Also in other places he says he "left Vietnam" in 1972, but that seems incorrect, because of the orders to report to Fort Bragg earlier?

quote above from
http://books.google.com/books?id=GdCKyGhie_QC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=%22billy+waugh%22+1975&source=bl&ots=u6Am5v9ZNw&sig=yYoPIKIRIc_MEhcXH5VrUZGGuGM&hl=en&ei=yn9rStz5CZG-sgP_taCWBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

(edit) I'm wondering if the main interviewing of SOG was done in 1972. If Billy had "disappeared" or was not findable, would that mean he wasn't interviewed? Did anyone know where he was? I wonder if they might have guessed it was Billy and he was dead?
Strange.

[georger 256]

(edit) I'm wondering if the main interviewing of SOG was done in 1972. If Billy had "disappeared" or was not findable, would that mean he wasn't interviewed? Did anyone know where he was? I wonder if they might have guessed it was Billy and he was dead?
Strange.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

(edit) I'm wondering if the main interviewing of SOG was done in 1972. If Billy had "disappeared" or was not findable, would that mean he wasn't interviewed? Did anyone know where he was? I wonder if they might have guessed it was Billy and he was dead?
Strange.

What "main interviewing"?

They who?

Or are you just making this up?

[snowmman 3]

oh the Rex Jaco reference is online in Google Books, in case you didn't believe my reference
here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JYT5UO_VHHcC&pg=PA346&lpg=PA346&dq=%22db+cooper%22+sog&source=bl&ots=3UyIbKtnWK&sig=WSvtOtDkcHiUfWIcy32VQoR2iSE&hl=en&ei=wpJrSufiM4L0sgPxjo2WBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Snowmman said:

Quote

Sluggo. You should never assume you're ahead of the pack. Always assume you're playing catchup. It's a better way to control the risk of being wrong.

snowmman,

Your advice (and Billy Graham’s sermons) have done me a world of good.





"Diversity raises the intelligence of groups."
Nancy Kline

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 22]

Quote

snowmman,

Your advice (and Billy Graham’s sermons) have done me a world of good.

Can you give us a comparative rating Sluggo? If you could only have one guiding light would it be Snowmman or Billy Graham?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Your advice (and Billy Graham’s sermons) have done me a world of good.

Yeah.
Remember I'm just grooming you for access to my nuke.
If there are side benefits, well, all the better.
Friends with benefits.

When people sit in the pews and listen to someone and nod their heads, it's a sermon.

When someone rants in the parking lot in front of Starbucks, it's just a lunatic.

But pretty much the same thing.

[snowmman 3]

page 105-107, "SOG" by John L. Plaster
Daniel Boone operation into Cambodia

At Stevens' urging, the major finally had four American Huey gunships strafe the woodline around the slash-and-burn, and when they didn't draw ground fire the cocksure officer was convinced Stevens was running scared. With disgust in his voice, the major radioed, "OK, send in a helicopter and we'll call it a day."

Because the slope was so steep, the Kingbee that went in carried an American to help lift the recon men aboard, a tall, lanky, master sergeant, Ben Snowden. Friendly, quiet and a good soldier, Snowden was an old Vietnam hand and well respected, and it was his welcome hand that reached from the hovering Kingbee above Stevens.

Just as Stevens lifted up his Nung point man to Snowden, "there let loose such a volume of fire as I've never heard since," the One-Zero said. While the men on the LZ jumped for cover, the chopper rocked groggily back and forth but somehow lifted away. The Kingbee made it back to SOG's Dak To launch site where, riddled with sixty-eight bullet holes, its engine out, it slammed into a ditch.

From his cover, Stevens raised his head, looked uphill and for the first time could discern a gully and a cave. Protruding from the cave was the NVA machine gun that had hit Snowden's Kingbee. It had ceased firing as soon as the helicopter left.

Now Stevens realized they were after the helicopters. "They didn't want us. They could have got us on square one.. They could've shot me sitting in the door coming in."

Fortunately, Stevens and his men were not actually in Cambodia but 100 yards into Laos. Covey brought in a pair of A-1s that dropped bombs and strafed danger-close, forcing the enemy back.

A Kingbee made a few low passes and didn't take fire, so it swung around and touched down, and the whole recon team rushed it and jumped aboard. It was about 30 feet in the air when that NVA machine gun reappeared at the cave mouth and its concentrated fire shot the tail rotor off, spinning the bird wildly around until it flipped and slammed on its side, its shattered rotors flailing the earth, kicking up a momentary dust storm.

Inside the crashed Kingbee, Stevens lay among a mass of rucksacks and squirming bodies; despite his daze he saw high-octane gas streaming everywhere and he knew any second it would torch up. He jumped up, grabbed the edge of the open doorway and pulled himself out, sitting above the H-34's side; he could make out three NVA and the machine gun that had brought the Kingbee down. Whether awestruck or compassionate, the Communist gunners stopped firing for a few seconds. That was all that Stevens needed. With adrenaline inspiration, he snatched up his Nungs and the Vietnamese door gunner and heaved then like rag dolls to safety. Meanwhile his One-One, Roland Nuqui, ran around, kicked in the cockpit Plexiglas and dragged the pilots out.

Amazingly, not one of the nine men was dead, and only the Vietnamese door gunner's wounds were serious. As they low-crawled into the jungle the machine gun resumed firing, but by then Stevens had arrayed everyone securely in a small perimeter. But they had to be extracted soon or they were doomed. Only one flyable Kingbee remained and it had to leave to refuel. To make matters worse Covey, too, went to refuel. The only air support left was an unarmed Bird Dog carrying recon man Joe Woods. The Bird Dog made simulated gun runs to keep the enemy occupied.

But it was a propeller-driven A-1 Skyraider from the Pleiku-based "Spads" that saved the day. While the Kingbee and Covey refueled, Stevens carefully describe to the A-1 pilot the exact heading to the cave containing the deadly machine gun. Then the A-1 rolled in, banked almost vertically to release a shiny canister that spun end over end just above the team, smashed through limbs and leaves, bounced once then spewed 50 yards of jellied gasoline into the small cave mouth, and PHOOOMPFFFFF!--' the napalm flashed brackish orange. Scratch one machine gun.

Looking up at that sharpshooting Skyraider, Stevens saw what looked like dust flicking off its skin and realized other enemy machine guns were stitching it with slugs. A second later the plane belched smoke. Stevens watched the A-1 nose up, saw the canopy fall away and the pilot deject. Stevens clenched his Swedish K so hard it shook in his hands. But wishing and hoping were no help; the parachute drifted into the NVA positions.

The A-1 pilot was lost. Whether he died in captivity or was killed immediately, Stevens never learned.

Momentarily helicopters appeared gunships, and the remaining Kingbee. flown by the Vietnamese pilot who'd taken sixty-eight hits and crash-landed the other bird at Dak To. He had insisted on flying because he knew the LZ.

With the deep shadows of sunset falling across the hillside and this one final H-34 available, everyone understood there'd be just one chance; the gunships let loose almost their entire loads in a couple of withering low-level passes. Then came the Kingbee. It seemed anticlimatic after six hours of shooting and bombing and strafing, but they got out with only minimum ground fire.

At Dak To, Stevens and Nuqui and the Nungs climbed from the Kingbee, exhausted and sweating but euphoric because their team had come through without losing a single man. Stevens lifted a silent toast to the unknown A-1 pilot. Then Lowell Stevens saw a body bag and learned Ben Snowden was dead, riddled by nine of those sixty-eight bullets that hit the first Kingbee. He'd probably died even while he hovered 6 feet over Stevens on the LZ.

In honor of the lanky master sergeant, about a hundred SOG men gathered that night and sang "Hey, Blue." In memory of this first man lost in Daniel Boone, they named the new recon company office at Kontum, Snowden Hall.

[skyjack71 0]

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And I believe this is the last thing the FBI wants to hear.

Georger you said a mouthful and that statement reflects what is going on inside of my head right now. Pure Chaos and Fear and Anger...not at you or anyone on this forum unless there is a mole who planted "information" I have recently been made aware of.

If the information is true - it is sick - and this country I have pledge my allegiance to is worse than sick.

This thread and some of the posters are shields or have been used as shields - shields to hide the dirty truth...and as one of you stated not long ago. Case Closed.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

377 said:

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Can you give us a comparative rating Sluggo? If you could only have one guiding light would it be Snowmman or Billy Graham?

Oh… Dr. Graham of course, not that snowmman hasn’t been helpful, it’s just that I grew up (in North Georgia) a Southern Baptist. One of the basic tenets of the Southern Baptist religion is that Billy Graham is God and when you die, you go to Montreat, NC.

I can remember listening to the radio at around age 4-years (1952) and hearing Dr. Graham’s standard: “You MUST put yo-ur hey-ands on the rad-e-yo and pray for God’s for-gev-ness.”

This nightly statement (admonition) had several major impacts on my developing psyche.

One: It scared the hell out of me.

Two: It made me think all evangelist were “just a little freaky.”

Three: It made me abandon my given first name (Billy) in favor of my middle name, because I figured if I stuck with Billy everyone would think I was a preacher (or country music singer).

And finally: It made me think that God resided in the radio, which surely influenced my initial career choice and decision to major in Electronic Engineering because I knew I’d never get through school without God’s help.

Yeah… I’m gonna go with the preacher over the troll-er.
snowmman said:

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When people sit in the pews and listen to someone and nod their heads, it's a sermon.

When someone rants in the parking lot in front of Starbucks, it's just a lunatic.

That’s not true where I come from. Where I come from:
When someone stands on a fire-plug, a mail collection box, or an inverted trash can ranting and thumping on a (King James version) Bible, it’s a sermon.

When someone rants in the parking lot in front of Starbucks, he is in Mountain View or Atlanta. (Therefore: by definition a lunatic.)

Another

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Poser.
It's called Hotlanta.

[BruceSmith 3]

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Sluggo said "I have reason to believe the FBI knew about the SF-SOG activities in Viet Nam by as early as 1972. "

Sluggo. You should never assume you're ahead of the pack. Always assume you're playing catchup. It's a better way to control the risk of being wrong.

So the next questions to ask:
1) Was Waugh investigated?
2) If so, did someone actively decide to stop looking in that direction?
3) SOG info was destroyed. Were the HALO jumps first described in public in 1995?
4) When were the first photos of Waugh from 1971 made available?
5) Has Waugh's fingerprints and DNA ever been compared to what the FBI has?
6) If Waugh is not worth investigating today, what kind of suspect would the FBI investigate?
7) If the answer is "The FBI won't investigate anyone", then why spend the time on making FBI movies ..e.g. the one with Tom Kaye which is up on the FBI channel on youtube, etc..and all the press releases on the FBI page? Are they expecting Cooper to just show up and say "It's me, here's the proof?" Is that even a remote possibility?

And the most important question
8) What can we do to make sure Cousin Brucie can write some good articles, maybe a book, minimally stay employed and keep the electricity on?

Now you're talking Snow.

[snowmman 3]

The Nat Geo team, Katie Greenfield specifically, has released info that the DZ has finally been identified by a team of scientists. I'm not sure about the use of the "may have very well been directly" modifier, but I think it's a phrase used by scientists:

http://ngccommunity.nationalgeographic.com/ngcblogs/inside-ngc/

"Currently the FBI has the help of a team of scientists who are going through the evidence in detail- recalculating the drop zone, analyzing the money. They are finding that the drop zone may have very well been directly over the Columbia River, D. B. Cooper disappeared, yes, he may have been washed out to sea."

I also note they have some stills from the documentary.
Apparently Cooper landed with sunglasses intact. See photos attached. (was the tie also on for the landing??) or click thru the photos at:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/the-skyjacker-that-got-away-4375/Overview#tab-Photos/4


The budget for the documentary was estimated to be $280,000
from
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1466352/business

[Orange1 0]

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This thread and some of the posters are shields

Interesting, Jo, seeing as YOU started the DB Cooper discussion threads here.

Take the tinfoil off please.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Westmoreland's name has come up a few times in discussions about Nam here.

In Prison Break there was a character called Westmoreland.
In the storyline, he was actually DB Cooper.

I'm just sayin' ....

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.