DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

was the vet from Vietnam in the Seychelles thing.

it's in the Time article link I just posted
August 9,1982

"Only one was declared not guilty last week: Charles William Dukes, an American veteran of Viet Nam, who was carried onto the 707 under heavy sedation after being seriously wounded during the Seychelles gunfight. He was ruled incapable of having taken part in the heist."

[Orange1 0]

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The tie story was told by Duane to family members prior to the skyjacking. Upon his release from Jefferson - he worked in the area for awhile - but I HAVE told this story before right here in this forum and I told it to Larry Carr. Duane had a tie and clip he claimed he stole from Bobby Kennedy within a few wks of his release from Jefferson.,,hence why I thought the tie was left as a message.

Jo I seriously think that you need counseling. It sounds like Duane was a pathological liar and you bought his stories hook, line and sinker. There are a huge number of men that fail to separate fantasy from reality and run around telling people that they have done or seen "unique" things to make them feel big in peoples eyes. I've worked for a man who claimed to be friends with Paul Allen (Microsoft's number 2) he pushed the lie to the point that Paul was supposed to be doing a site visit and then just didn't arrive.

The sheer number of "unique" events in Duane's life should raise alarm bells. I don't know maybe you are to deep into the whole charade and subconciously are scared that you will go from dB Coopers ex-wife to simply a woman who was scammed by a lying bum - that would be difficult to deal with.

I challenge you to name 2 people who are not Presidents/country leaders who have played instrumental roles in more than 1 international event. I can only think of one that is Bin Laden

Can anybody tell me why on earth a KENNEDY would wear a cheap clip-on tie??? What twaddle!!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Orange1 asked "Can anybody tell me why on earth a KENNEDY would wear a cheap clip-on tie??? What twaddle!! "

to paraphrase, are you asking me to find a picture of Robert Kennedy with a clip-on tie?
:)

[Orange1 0]

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(edit) more detail:
Hoare and 43 mercenaries were disguised as tourists: rugby players and members of a beer-drinking group called the Ancient Order of Frothblowers.

(edit) Also see Time magazine for this, report of Hoare's trial
august 9, 1982
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,925646,00.html


see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Order_of_Froth_Blowers

Apparently it's true? (the use as a cover during the Seychelles thing)

yeah i was gonna go look up the stuff, that bit about Hoare being "retired" in the Braden story I knew untrue because of the Seychelles coup attempt.

I thought Hoare was involved in a Comoros coup attempt as well, but actually I think that was Colonel Bob Denard. (I've been to Comoros, but not while there was a coup attempt on. There were Safricans trapped on the island during the coup attempt.)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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Orange1 asked "Can anybody tell me why on earth a KENNEDY would wear a cheap clip-on tie??? What twaddle!! "

to paraphrase, are you asking me to find a picture of Robert Kennedy with a clip-on tie?
:)

I challenge you to find one!!!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Hm, seems Denard was involved in at least 3 coups or coup attempts in Comoros, not just the one I remember!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comoros#Independence

And because there always has to be a S African link, for Snow:

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Bob Denard was evacuated to South Africa by French paratroopers.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Really interesting stuff Snowmman. I was a skydiver, a Ramparts subscriber. I even spent time talking with Bob Scheer (the editor) at a party. I was also very interested in the Cooper case. Back then it never occured to me that it could all tie together even in a speculative way.

I and most of my jumper friends were sure Cooper was a skydiver and for some reason we figured he was probably from California. Nobody in my crowd was thinking military, we kinda thought they were too law abiding.

We also (incorrectly) thought of military jumpers as low altitude S/L Airborne types. The sheer craziness of the crime had skydiver written all over it as far as we were concerned.

I wish Ckret would save his "citizen sleuths" from wasting time on suspects the FBI might have already investigated in depth.

Cooper could have been a whuffo, but I'd bet not. Few whuffos know about flaps, pressurization, exit speeds and so forth. I've said many times that Cooper had to know you could jump a 727. Very few knew this in 71. Few had the jump skills to confidently manage the Cooper stormy night jump over unknown terrain, but the SF HALO guys in Nam did. So far it is 100% speculation, but the more we dig the better hypothetical case you can make for Cooper to have been a disgruntled SF type who came back home with the highly specialized knowledge and skills to pull off NORJACK.

It is amazing to me that the military would give anyone a free pass on desertion during wartime. An accused deserter like Braden could threaten to tell about all sorts of dirty linen but the military could just deny it. Viet Nam Veterans Against the War made all sorts of claims about atrocities and illegalities in SE Asia US military ops, but the military simply ignored/denied the charges and nothing came of it.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

this is an open forum, so don't admit to your role in any coups or other mercenary activity.

There was one woman, and a handful of mercernaries left behind in Seychelles. They didn't try the woman. The did try the mercenaries. I think they were sentenced to death by hanging but not sure what happened.

I'm not saying anything about who that woman was in Seychelles. But I'm just saying....

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Quote

(edit) more detail:
Hoare and 43 mercenaries were disguised as tourists: rugby players and members of a beer-drinking group called the Ancient Order of Frothblowers.

(edit) Also see Time magazine for this, report of Hoare's trial
august 9, 1982
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,925646,00.html


see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Order_of_Froth_Blowers

Apparently it's true? (the use as a cover during the Seychelles thing)

yeah i was gonna go look up the stuff, that bit about Hoare being "retired" in the Braden story I knew untrue because of the Seychelles coup attempt.

I thought Hoare was involved in a Comoros coup attempt as well, but actually I think that was Colonel Bob Denard. (I've been to Comoros, but not while there was a coup attempt on. There were Safricans trapped on the island during the coup attempt.)

[377 22]

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nigel99 said "Front and back parachutes sounds to me like the way I would describe a T10 type rig to my 9 year old."

You don't remember who wrote down "front" do you?

We don't know what Cooper said.
We know what the stews wrote down.
Does that change anything in your mind?

Hard to really make anything out of it. Jumpers in the 1971 era never called belly reserves anything but "reserves", only riggers used the term "chest".

If you were Cooper and you were trying to tell a stewardess what kind of gear you wanted you'd probably use the simplest least ambiguous terms you could which would be front and back.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377 said "Viet Nam Veterans Against the War made all sorts of claims about atrocities and illegalities in SE Asia US military ops, but the military simply ignored/denied the charges and nothing came of it. "

Well, there's no two ways to say it, but according to the supposed laws in place (which are unfair, since we tell soldiers to both follow the laws, and not follow the laws)...it's clear there were war crimes by the US in Vietnam. I'm thinking of a statement by Plaster..almost a throwaway sentence..about shooting an attempted NVA prisoner snatch after a tranq dart attempt that failed..."to put him out of his misery"...

It's a little bit sad reading Plaster's book. There's SOG activity, that sitting in an armchair, you can say is clearly warcrime..i.e. shooting incapacitated prisoners, for convenience. The situation was all fucked up basically.

I've read alot of words spent trying to rationalize the MACVSOG experience. A lot of killing happened.

I think the reality is the whole plan, using indigeneous, derived from one of the top guys experience in WWII, was kind of a way to get lots of Yards killed. And US soldiers too.

Sure the guys did superhuman efforts. It's mindboggling reading the stories.

But I'm just as touched reading about the heli pilots, constantly shot down, killed, during rescue attempts after some of the inserts went bad. (edit) Or superheroic rescue attempts, under heavy fire, to extract RTs being overrun. Just absolutely gripping, when the heli and crew go down in flames, when they could have backed off, and said "too hard" at any time. But they didn't.

It was all bad, from my little point of view, 40 years later.

[Orange1 0]

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this is an open forum, so don't admit to your role in any coups or other mercenary activity.

There was one woman, and a handful of mercernaries left behind in Seychelles. They didn't try the woman. The did try the mercenaries. I think they were sentenced to death by hanging but not sure what happened.

I'm not saying anything about who that woman was in Seychelles. But I'm just saying....

I'm a lot younger than you seem to think I am

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

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But I'm just as touched reading about the heli pilots, constantly shot down, killed, during rescue attempts after some of the inserts went bad. (edit) Or superheroic rescue attempts, under heavy fire, to extract RTs being overrun. Just absolutely gripping, when the heli and crew go down in flames, when they could have backed off, and said "too hard" at any time. But they didn't.

Couldn't agree with you more Snow. The heroism was unbelievable.

This is an exellent read, written by a Nam vet helo pilot, riveting and lots of details about the actual flying. Some crew chiefs did a forbidden mod on the Huey fuel controllers to allow over limit engine power for do or die situations.

http://www.amazon.com/Chickenhawk-Robert-Mason/dp/0140072187

Interestingly, after the author returned from Viet Nam, he got involved in drug smuggling and went to prison. This book chronicles the seocnd half of the story:

"This affecting sequel to Chickenhawk , a 1983 memoir of Vietnam, covers Mason's postwar life and his struggle with the classic symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder: overwhelming restlessness, panic attacks and inability to hold a job. After finding relief in writing about his tour as a helicopter pilot in Vietnam, he then took a major misstep by joining a drug-smuggling venture that involved a sailboat voyage across the Caribbean. Caught by U.S. customs authorities, Mason found himself facing the shame of trial and the terror of prison. During this critical period, he received the news that Viking had accepted the book in hand for publication. Thus: "While I was experiencing the highest moment of my life, I was also experiencing the lowest moment of my life." Mason has a powerful personal tale that should have wide appeal. His account of the smuggling misadventure and his imprisonment in Florida are searing."

http://www.amazon.com/Chickenhawk-Back-World-After-Vietnam/dp/0670848352

Could Cooper have suffered a similar fate? War trauma abroad followed by descent in to domestic crime? It didn't happen to everyone but it happened to enough to warrant serious study by the Army.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

OK, here's an easy one. I can't see in the many pics if the tie is clip-on or not but we can tell something about the tie pin (called a tie clip here):

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Having read lots of books on the Kennedys, I knew that during the 1960 campaign, PT-109 tie clasps were distributed as keepsakes of the campaign. For younger readers unfamiliar with the significance, John F. Kennedy commanded a motor torpedo boat (PT-109) inthe Pacific during World War II. His boat was sliced in half by a Japanese destroyer one night,and it was Kennedy’s leadership and courage that ultimately led to the rescue of the survivors ofthe crash. Robert Kennedy always wore a PT-109 tie clip. You can see it on his tie in many pictures.

now maybe Snow can do his famous digging and get a pic of said tie pin/clip/clasp, and compare it to the pics of tie plus pin on FBI website?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

oh my hat, here's something off a conspiracy theory site - but the wrong way round for Jo's theory ... apparently RFK grabbed his assassin's clip-on tie.
http://www.orwelltoday.com/rfktiekiller.shtml

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I talked the guy down from $49.99 to $39.99

Last time I wanted something (a NWA flight schedule closer to 11/71 than the one I currently have), I lost it by bidding low.
I kicked myself with preannouncing, but no one here seemed to go up against me on this one.

I think I saw someone else on the web with it for sale at $49.99 also.

I'll see if there's anything about Braden's age when I get it.
I did enough double checking that it should be the right issue..hopefully.

[377 22]

Jerry,

Do you still think Cooper was a whuffo or do you think there is a chance he was an experienced military jumper... perhaps suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and not thinking rationally about the risks, dangers, rewards etc.?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Braden circa 1968 (terrible photo).

Web Page
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NORJAK Forum

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

That photo came from "DER SPIEGEL 15/1968 vom 08.04.1968, Seite 146" which is aparently a reprint of the Ramparts article.

Braden had a passport in the name of Joseph Edward Homer.

Homer was a Canadian citizen, born and raised in Windsor, Ontario. He was a sergeant in the Special Forces and SOG in 1965 in a camp in Thang Long where he was killed when a mortar salvo exploded prematurely. Braden stole his identity and obtained a passport under that name.

Key Words:
SOG
Canadian
Friend of Braden?

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

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That photo came from "DER SPIEGEL 15/1968 vom 08.04.1968, Seite 146" which is aparently a reprint of the Ramparts article.

Braden had a passport in the name of Joseph Edward Homer.

Homer was a Canadian citizen, born and raised in Windsor, Ontario. He was a sergeant in the Special Forces and SOG in 1965 in a camp in Thang Long where he was killed when a mortar salvo exploded prematurely. Braden stole his identity and obtained a passport under that name.

Key Words:
SOG
Canadian
Friend of Braden?

Good job Sluggo. Thanks.
Three questions

1) Anything on what he liked to drink? Bourbon?
2) Where was he born?
3) How should I interpret Orange1's brag about her relative youth?

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I'm looking but lack the skill to uncover anything (yet).

Orange1 displays the impetuousness of youth, the vigor of youth, and the brains of that generation that was born after 1979 (the year of Three-Mile Island).

So..... compared to me (and you), she is a "Spring Chicken."

{Boy! It took a while to come up with a "term" that would NOT be interpreted as sexist.}

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

The nice thing about seeing more photos and bios, beside Duane, Gosset, Christiansen, is that is makes it more obvious (to me) how specious some of the claims of these other suspects are. The other suspects like to imply some uniqueness, but they don't show them in context. So 38 years later, it's easy for totally bogus "suspects" to appear to be worth some discussion.

It also focuses us on how much we don't know about the era, and how much we rely on stereotypes, rather than saying "we don't know" and getting data.

at least, I'm talking about myself and my thinking, I guess.

[377 22]

Skydiving is unique in the age spread of participants. I've been on RW jumps where the age delta between oldest and youngest in a formation was well over 50 years! The plane (DC 3) was 66 years old and the pilot was 72.

Few extreme sports can claim similar demographics.

For older jumpers it isnt all about eyeing the beauty of youth at the DZ, although that is a benefit. Skydiving puts you in touch with what younger people are thinking about. You hear their perspective on things and it keeps you on your toes.
You could see the election of Obama coming when even middle of the road young jumpers were saying they were completely fed up with Republican politics.

Having such a bright young woman like Orange here hangin with us older guys is very refreshing, but in skydiving it isn't so far out of the norm.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Jerry,

Do you still think Cooper was a whuffo or do you think there is a chance he was an experienced military jumper... perhaps suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and not thinking rationally about the risks, dangers, rewards etc.?

377

Another way to put it.
"Can you envision a vet coming up with a crazy plan to get to Africa on his own, after deserting, and becoming a mercenary, and not getting killed within a couple weeks?"
and...that it would end with him getting caught, but just released by the Army and told to just be good in the future (and keep your mouth shut)

Hmm. I wonder why he didn't turn around and try to get hired in Africa again. Did the US Army tell the hiring folks down there Braden was off-limits?

I wonder what files Ckret can get for us on Braden. I think they're next to the propeller files, in the stack of sliding bookshelves that was on tv. Below the domestic SR-71 flyovers file.

[377 22]

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I wonder what files Ckret can get for us on Braden.

For you Snow? NADA.

As tough as it might be for you personally, you'll have to beg Chief NORJACK Scientist Tom K to make your request.

Tom has a hall pass.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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Another way to put it.
"Can you envision a vet coming up with a crazy plan to get to Africa on his own, after deserting, and becoming a mercenary, and not getting killed within a couple weeks?"
and...that it would end with him getting caught, but just released by the Army and told to just be good in the future (and keep your mouth shut)

That is just so frigging wild. Let's start writing the screenplay now. The Cooper movie just got a lot more interesting.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.