DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

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Another way to put it.
"Can you envision a vet coming up with a crazy plan to get to Africa on his own, after deserting, and becoming a mercenary, and not getting killed within a couple weeks?"
and...that it would end with him getting caught, but just released by the Army and told to just be good in the future (and keep your mouth shut)

That is just so frigging wild. Let's start writing the screenplay now. The Cooper movie just got a lot more interesting.

377

Well, I think many movies have already been done...

Check this site out for pics of "Mad Mike Hoare"
http://www.geocities.com/madmikehoare/

The movie "The Wild Geese" was indirectly related to Hoare.

Mike Hoare is credited as a "military and technical adviser" for the motion picture "The Wild Geese", adapted from a fictional account of Hoare's career. (1978) (Link to Internet Movie Database)
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0078492/combined

"A British multinational seeks to overthrow a vicious dictator in central Africa. It hires a band of (largely aged) mercenaries in London and sends them in to save the virtuous but imprisoned opposition leader who is also critically ill and due for execution. Just when the team has performed a perfect rescue, the multinational does a deal with the vicious dictator leaving the mercenary band to escape under their own steam and exact revenge. "

(edit) Hmm...maybe just need to rework that paragraph to say

"An internet forum seeks to overthrow a vicious FBI agent in Seattle, Washington. They form a band of (largely aged) posters to ridicule the virtuous but critically ill Skyjack71, and others. Just when the team has identified Cooper, the target does a deal with the FBI agent leaving the mentally unbalanced, hateful band to exact revenge."

[snowmman 3]

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I wonder what files Ckret can get for us on Braden.

For you Snow? NADA.

As tough as it might be for you personally, you'll have to beg Chief NORJACK Scientist Tom K to make your request.

Tom has a hall pass.

377

Hmm. You're saying Carr is an "Untouchable". How can Carr be gotten to...hmm.

It comes down to "What does Carr need?"

Everyone needs something.

We figure out what Carr needs. Then we get that thing. Then Carr comes to us and begs! We get Orange1 stiletto heels to grind into his hands at that point. (just thinking about movie scenes)

[snowmman 3]

I just solved the Carr issue.
I invited Squeaky Fromme to join us on the forum.

The Citizen Scientists are all about experiential knowledge!
We just got stronger!
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/08/05/squeaky.fromme.release/index.html

[377 22]

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You're saying Carr is an "Untouchable".

Not at all. Tom actually gets money from Carr, albeit old and tattered.

You can't get the time of day from Carr much less evidence samples or on site file inspections.

You won't kiss FBI butt. You won't even play nice.

Status quo insured.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

On the other hand, if Braden is Cooper (which he can't be, because of the money find. It was deposited by propeller. I saw the numbers on National Geographic)....

But if he is, we could just give him a free pass.

We could send him a card though, that entitles him to free beer for life at any DZ. ?

My thinking is, we want to avoid the embarrassment of Braden pulling out a twenty to buy, and the whole bar going silent as we all stare at serial number K32190065A series 63A.

[skyjack71 0]

When Bobby Kennedy was campaigning in Ky and some of the poor distressed states he did INDEED wear a clip on many times. He was consider a poor dresser compared to his brother.

You have to realize that in 1968 - not all of the places he campaigned from where air-conditioned halls. He was on draped wagons in the streets with people grabbing at his tie and his cuffs and arms. I have seen clips from that time where the body guards used their own bodies shielding him and holding on to his waist from the front - to keep him from being pulled off of the wagon.

When he toured Ky just prior to the MLK incident - he had tried to slip out with one other person to go to these poor area, but it leaked out and cars and media where following him - this was not what he wanted. He wanted to see how these people lived and talk to them without the media there - it didn't happen.

Bobby Kennedy was very unlike his brother - he had several children and he raised them very differently. They recieved an allowance and made their own gift purchases, out of those allowances - hence, a few Penney ties down thru those early yrs.

Bobby was considered a poor dresser and was often prompted what to wear by the family when JFK was in office. Don't take my word for this - you guys have the search engines and old clips at you fingertips. The most revealing was documentary clips - what has not been obscured by CIA and government control in recent yrs. The Washington photo file on Bobby Kennedy being close until a date sometime in the 2030's was really good timing wasn't it?

When I contact Carr the photos are available for viewing and then within 2 wks or less they are NO Longer AVAILABLE to be viewed...other than those already published in the media. I suppose NONE of you find that unusual.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

I was thinking about Braden.
Imagine that after he deserted, in the back of his mind he might have thought they wouldn't go after him, because of the secret nature of stuff he knew about Vietnam. How they were going where they weren't supposed to be going, and doing stuff they weren't supposed to be doing.

But then he gets caught, and he finds out he really does have a Get Out Of Jail Free pass...I mean he's travelling with a false passport, and nothing happens.

I wonder what goes thru his mind for the next 10 years. Does he realize he has a Pass for the next 10 years???

What a weird situation to put someone in.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

It sounds like Duane was a pathological liar and you bought his stories hook, line and sinker.

Quote

Can anybody tell me why on earth a KENNEDY would wear a cheap clip-on tie??? What twaddle!!

I answered your tie question in my prior post. And I just read your post about the one special tie clip - ARE you actually naive enough to believe he worn ONLY that one Clip?

Now I WILL address the other part of your post. I did not buy his stories because I didn't have to.. He made comments on documentaries we watched or specials and what was in the news.

The tie story I learned from someone in his family in my researching of his past. The ticket, stub and bank bag - I saw with my own eyes. The things he said on the trip - I did not even question and took the Cooper comment as just a joke.

You and others would like to make me out to a dislusional guilible woman and Duane as a braggart and liar. That is far from the truth. He DID not brag about his past and he told me little about his past - most of what I know has been acquired since his death..

I admit to being naive and ignoring the warning signes that indicated a checkered past. Women of the early 20th century were very different from the women who merged during the last quarter of the 1900's. Judge not unless you are over 65 yrs of age...and raised in a small town and in a family where the word divorce was not an acceptable termination of a marriage...and was considered only under extreme circumstances.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

The defense lawyer (Edward Bennett Williams) at a Hoffa trial said he would send Bobby Kennedy a parachute when the jury acquitted Hoffa.

Bobby had told Newsweek after the initial indictment that he would "jump off the Capitol" if Hoffa were acquitted.

I'm not sure if a rig actually was sent.

[snowmman 3]

We talked a bunch about the black market for US dollars, and how GIs could take advantage of it to boost their money..I just noticed in Braden's roughly translated article, he complains about the pay, and how the CIA guys are getting all the money, and how he has to use the black market exchange just to get by...

he says (roughly)

"As I said, that is a business, but the CIA Boys, which sits in Saigon in its offices with air conditioning in the Tran Yang Dau road, makes the thick money. Because I was only one loan to the CIA, I belonged not to the “Boys” and got only the pay of a technical sergeant.

I like first-class things -- but with 800 dollar monthly is not that anything. And was called, I had on the black market and in the illegal exchange offices rather often to be seen to be able, in order to provide for pay on improvement."

It'll be better when I get the english Ramparts version.

[snowmman 3]

Braden says further

"The 6th command in Kinshasa (Léopoldville) consisted mainly of Belgians -- about 300 men altogether, all air landing troops, which served Mobutu as militia and a palace guard. "

he went for the 5th command instead:

"The 5th command consisted of South Africans, Rhodesiern, Englishmen, a few Canadians and isolated Americans. "

He eventually was issued a Belgian rifle

"In the same afternoon we were brought into the city, where us the Belgian FN-rifle (7.62 mm), NATO ammunition and our 5. - Were missed command uniform."

he talks about a CIA hangar at an airport

"When we arrived on the airport of Kinshasa, the machine stopped not on the main airfield, but continued to roll the whole runway up to the CIA hangar. Here they did not deliver themselves with rewritings. It was not only a CIA hangar, it called it also in such a way."

"The CIA did not maintain the mercenary troops directly. Mobutu paid the mercenaries with US means, and that, which controlled these means, controlled Mobutu. Apart from the money the CIA exercised already thereby control that you belonged the transport aircrafts -- a vital thing in an underdeveloped country. "

he bitched he couldn't get a job with the CIA after that

"Secondly it would be embarrassing for the CIA, if it admits became that an American mercenary was killed or taken prisoner -- while no humans move on, if a British or rhodesischer mercenary dies. The CIA rather works with other nationalities.
...
It is obvious that I stand with the Agency on the black list -- therefore it is difficult to contact from the USA different employers. The people, which could need my assistance in Latin America, try to let natives and foreign idealists fight -- and that is, professional ones do not have to expect money."

[snowmman 3]

I got page 83 of "The Bloody Road" from Amazon, and OCR'ed it below

It references the Leaping Lena project. (jumping into Laos)
Interestingly, it gives Braden smokejumper gear interaction. The Leaping Lena project doesn't sound like it was very successful. It led to the future combination of US+indigeneous in all SOG activity, as a result...

Leaping Lena was the predecursor for all SOG activity and provided the rationale for joint US+indigeneous.

http://www.specialoperations.com/MACVSOG/Overview.htm

"Leaping Lena and Prairie Fire Operations

The first series of U.S.-sponsored cross-border operations took place in 1964 under the code name “Leaping Lena.” The South Vietnamese Government under the supervision of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) conducted these activities. Unfortunately, Leaping Lena was a failure and was terminated.5 When created in 1964, the SOG benefited from the Leaping Lena experiences and established a policy that called for the use of both indigenous and U.S. personnel for operations conducted in Laos and Cambodia. An analysis of the Leaping Lena operations had shown that if a team was to accomplish its mission and meet the high standard of intelligence- gathering and reporting required by the SOG, it would have to be with U.S. supervision and leadership. The presence of the U.S. personnel on the teams insured accurate and reliable intelligence."


http://www.flyarmy.org/panel/battle/64051520.HTM
operation LEAPING LENA information
for MACV
5 SF GRP
From date 640515 to 641001
Under MACV directions, a select number of Vietnamese and CIDG warriors under SF leadership began classified long-range patrolling under the codeword LEAPING LENA. This effort provided the groundwork for the formation of a combined American-South Vietnamese special reconnaissance unit capable of conducting the most hazardous and critical missions inside the country as required by MACV and the Vietnamese Joint General Staff. The LEAPING LENA activities would be reorganized under Project DELTA in October, 1964.


http://books.google.com/books?id=jDluAAAAMAAJ
Title The blood road: the Ho Chi Minh Trail and the Vietnam War
Author John Prados
Edition reprint, illustrated
Publisher Wiley, 1998
Original from the University of Michigan
Digitized Sep 3, 2008
ISBN 0471254657, 9780471254652
Length 432 pages
Amazon reader here http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471254657#reader

from page 83

Sergeant Duncan began to have doubts when Special Forces was obliged to pay bonuses for each field training mission or parachute drop, things that were supposed to be part of the normal routine. Then came news that no Americans would be along for Leaping Lena. The original idea of teams composed ol two Americans and four Vietnamese had to be scrapped in favor of slightly larger eight-man all-Vietnamese commando teams.

There were desertions from the Delta camp and more petty grievances - at one point the commandos refused to go on unless given better watches and wool sweaters. The Vietnamese had seemed dedicated before, and some of them had had experience in the Leaping Lena operating area, but the American stand-down sapped their morale.

Beginning on June 24 Leaping Lena was mounted ("launched" became the term of art in Vietnam) out of Nha Trang. There were five teams of Vietnamese Special Forces (LLDB); their commander showed up drunk at the airplane to bid them farewell. The men parachuted, using smoke jumper techniques to land in the tree-studded terrain of the Annamites.

Another Project Delta Green Beret, an Army sergeant named Ted B. Braden, who had been a pioneer in high-altitude, low-opening (HALO) parachute methods, had struggled to bring at least a few of the LLDB team members to proficiency. Unmarked planes flown by South Vietnamese pilots carried the teams, one of which dropped the first day, followed by three on June 25 and the last on July 2. Two of the scout teams went in north of Route 9, the others below that road, toward Muong Nong.

Though the Leaping Lena teams were supposed to range their assigned areas for up to a month, that never happened. One of the teams disappeared and was never heard from at all, and a second was captured when it blundered into an enemy-held village. The remaining teams made radio contact but were missing after various intervals. During the final stage.

Leaping Lena helicopters made two flights daily, scouring the countryside for signs of the teams. One helicopter even entered Laos to search the road from Muong Nong up toward Tchepone, flying so low the crew could use a hand-held camera to photograph people standing in their doorways. The flight encountered no trucks, hostile forces, or movement, and was not fired at. There were no scouts.

At length a few returned, with the climax coming when one team crossed the border near Khe Sanh and encountered a People's Army battalion doing the same thing. Toward dark, as the Leaping Lena team awaited its helicopter pickup, the VPA saw them and a firefight ensued, with more South Vietnamese losses. The operation was terminated on July 9. Only five commandos made it back to friendly positions.


(edit) More background from page 82

"It would be Special Forces Vietnam, not MACSOG, that finally carried out the cross-border mission....Now Washington was giving Leonard thirty days to prepare the entire mission. Americans would not be allowed to participate.

To carry out this foray Leonard created a unique unit he named Project Delta. The unit would have its own secure compound within the growing base complex at Nha Trang, with separate security forces, everything very hush-hush. The long-term concept was to form commando teams for scouting, and larger strike forces to back them up, but for this first mission, ..only scout teams would be used. Donald Duncan was one of the young Special Forces sergeants assigned to Project Delta.

[snowmman 3]

I think Duncan was a source for John Prados in writing "The Blood Road"

Here's something curious. Duncan revealed Leaping Lena in Ramparts in 1967 [ed. Later post shows that it was 1966, not 1967. see issue in later post]

On page 228 of "The Blood Road" (see citation previous post)

"In 1967 the magazine Ramparts published an article by former Green Beret Donald Duncan that contained the first public revelation of the Leaping Lena cross-border operations into Laos, as well as allegations regarding American and South Vietnamese torture of prisoners. In April veterans of the Vietnam fighting constituted themselves as Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), a group that Duncan and many more would join."

I have Donald Duncan's article. Next Post.

[snowmman 3]

Donald Duncan currently lives in Montana.

Cousin Brucie, your mission if you decide to accept it, is to contact Donald Duncan. Get any appropriate information, return and report. As always, if discovered, this thread will disavow all knowledge of your actions.


The Ramparts article from Duncan was apparently in 1966, not 1967, found here
http://www.montanaheritageproject.org/index.php/teacherlore/comments/donald-duncan-vietnam-was-a-lie-1966/


Donald Duncan-Vietnam was a lie, 1966

Donald Duncan “The Whole Thing Was a Lie!” was published in Ramparts magazine, the New Left’s most prominent publication, in February 1966. As a former member of the Special Forces in Vietnam, Duncan lent credibility to the antiwar movement’s claim that the United States was not fighting for freedom in Southeast Asia and that it was acting in an immoral manner, analogous to the role played by Russian tanks that put down a rebellion in Hungary in 1956. Duncan’s article contained some of the most riveting firsthand descriptions of the fighting, which contrasted sharply with the largely favorable coverage the war was receiving at the time by the mainstream media. Indeed, although the antiwar movement has often been portrayed as anti-GI, this article suggests that the relationship between active soldiers, Vietnam veterans, and the antiwar movement was quite complex and certainly should not be caricatured as one of antiwar protesters spitting on GIs, as has often been the case.

Donald Duncan, “The Whole Thing Was a Lie!” Ramparts 4, no. 10 (February 1966), pp. 12-24.

When I was drafted into the Army, ten years ago, I was a militant antiCommunist. Like most Americans, I couldn’t conceive of anybody choosing communism over democracy. The depths of my aversion to this ideology was, I suppose, due in part to my being Roman Catholic, in part to the stories in the news media about communism, and in part to the fact that my stepfather was born in Budapest, Hungary. Although he had come to the United States as a young man, most of his family had stayed in Europe. From time to time, I would be given examples of the horrors of life under communism. Shortly after Basic Training, I was sent to Germany. I was there at the time of the Soviet suppression of the Hungarian revolt. Everything I had heard about communism was verified. Like my fellow soldiers I felt frustrated and cheated that the United States would not go to the aid of the Hungarians. Angrily, I followed the action of the brute force being used against people who were armed with sticks, stolen weapons, and a desire for independence.

While serving in Germany, I ran across the Special Forces. I was so impressed by their dedication and elan that I decided to volunteer for duty with this group. By 1959 I had been accepted into the Special Forces and underwent training at Fort Bragg. I was soon to learn much about the outfit and the men in it. A good percentage of them were Lodge Act people—men who had come out from Iron Curtain countries. Their anti-communism bordered on fanaticism. Many of them who, like me, had joined Special Forces to do something positive, were to leave because “things” weren’t happening fast enough. They were to show up later in Africa and Latin America in the employ of others or as independent agents for the CIA.

Initially, training was aimed at having United States teams organize guerrilla movements in foreign countries. Emphasis was placed on the fact that guerrillas can’t take prisoners. We were continuously told “You don’t have to kill them yourself—let your indigenous counterpart do that.” In a course entitled, “Countermeasures to Hostile Interrogation,” we were taught NKVD (Soviet Security) methods of torture to extract information. It became obvious that the title was only camouflage for teaching us “other” means of interrogation when time did not permit more sophisticated methods, for example, the old cold water-hot water treatment, or the delicate operation of lowering a man’s testicles into a jeweler’s vise. When we asked directly if we were being told to use these methods the answer was, “We can’t tell you that. The Mothers of America wouldn’t approve.” This sarcastic hypocrisy was greeted with laughs. Our own military teaches these and even worse things to American soldiers. They then condemn the Viet Cong guerrillas for supposedly doing those very things. I was later to witness firsthand the practice of turning prisoners over to ARVN for “interrogation” and the atrocities which ensued.

Throughout the training there was an exciting aura of mystery. Hints were continually being dropped that “at this very moment” Special Forces men were in various Latin American and Asian countries on secret missions. The antiCommunist theme was woven throughout. Recommended reading would invariably turn out to be books on “brainwashing” and atrocity tales—life under communism. The enemy was THE ENEMY. There was no doubt that THE ENEMY was communism and Communist countries. There never was a suggestion that Special Forces would be used to set up guerrilla warfare against the government in a Fascist-controlled country.

It would be a long time before I would look back and realize that this conditioning about the Communist conspiracy and THE ENEMY was taking place. Like most of the men who volunteered for Special Forces, I wasn’t hard to sell. We were ready for it. Artur Fisers, my classmate and roommate, was living for the day when he would “lead the first ‘stick’ of the first team to go into Latvia.” “How about Vietnam, Art?” “To hell with Vietnam. I wouldn’t blend. There are not many blue-eyed gooks.” This was to be only the first of many contradictions of the theory that Special Forces men cannot be prejudiced about the color or religion of other people. . . .

My first impressions of Vietnam were gained from the window of the jet while flying over Saigon and its outlying areas. As I looked down I thought, “Why, those could be farms anywhere and that could be a city anywhere.” The ride from Tan Son Nhut to the center of town destroyed the initial illusion.

My impressions weren’t unique for a new arrival in Saigon. I was appalled by the heat and humidity which made my worsted uniform feel like a fur coat. Smells. Exhaust fumes from the hundreds of blue and white Renault taxis and military vehicles. Human excrement; the foul, stagnant, black mud and water as we passed over the river on Cong Ly Street; and overriding all the others, the very pungent and rancid smell of what I later found out was nuoc mam, a sauce made much in the same manner as sauerkraut, with fish substituted for cabbage. No Vietnamese meal is complete without it. People—masses of them! The smallest children, with the dirty faces of all children of their age, standing on the sidewalk unshod and with no clothing other than a shirtwaist that never quite reached the navel on the protruding belly. Those a little older wearing overalltype trousers with the crotch seam torn out—a practical alteration that eliminates the need for diapers. Young grade school girls in their blue butterfly sun hats, and boys of the same age with hands out saying, “OK—Salem,” thereby exhausting their English vocabulary. The women in ao dais of all colors, all looking beautiful and graceful. The slim, hipless men, many walking hand-in-hand with other men, and so misunderstood by the newcomer. Old men with straggly Fu Man Chu beards staring impassively, wearing wide-legged, pajama-like trousers.

Bars by the hundreds—with American-style names (Playboy, Hungry i, Flamingo) and faced with grenade-proof screening. Houses made from packing cases, accommodating three or four families, stand alongside spacious villas complete with military guard. American GI’s abound in sport shirts, slacks, and cameras; motorcycles, screaming to make room for a speeding official in a large, shiny sedan, pass over an intersection that has hundreds of horseshoes impressed in the soft asphalt tar. Confusion, noise, smells, people—almost overwhelming.

My initial assignment was in Saigon as an Area Specialist for III and IV Corps Tactical Zone in the Special Forces Tactical Operations Center. And my education began here. The officers and NCO’s were unanimous in their contempt of the Vietnamese.

There was a continual put-down of Saigon officials, the Saigon government, ARVN ( Army Republic of Vietnam), the LLDB (Luc Luong Dac Biet—-Vietnamese Special Forces) and the Vietnamese man-in-the-street. The government was rotten, the officials corrupt, ARVN cowardly, the LLDB all three, and the man-in-the-street an ignorant thief. (LLDB also qualified under “thief.")

I was shocked. I was working with what were probably some of the most dedicated Americans in Vietnam. They were supposedly in Vietnam to help “our Vietnamese friends” in their fight for a democratic way of life. Obviously, the attitude didn’t fit.

. . . [W]henever anybody questioned our being in Vietnam—in light of the facts—the old rationale was always presented: “We have to stop the spread of communism somewhere . . . if we don’t fight the commies here, we’ll have to fight them at home . . . if we pull out, the rest of Asia will go Red . . . these are uneducated people who have been duped; they don’t understand the difference between democracy and communism. . . .”

Being extremely anti-Communist myself, these “arguments” satisfied me for a long time. In fact, I guess it was saying these very same things to myself over and over again that made it possible for me to participate in the things I did in Vietnam. But were we stopping communism? Even during the short period I had been in Vietnam, the Viet Cong had obviously gained in strength; the government controlled less and less of the country every day. The more troops and money we poured in, the more people hated us. Countries all over the world were losing sympathy with our stand in Vietnam. Countries which up to now had preserved a neutral position were becoming vehemently anti-American. A village near Tay Ninh in which I had slept in safety six months earlier was the center of a Viet Cong operation that cost the lives of two American friends. A Special Forces team operating in the area was almost decimated over a period of four months. United States Operations Mission ( USOM), civilian representatives, who had been able to travel by vehicle in relative safety throughout the countryside, were being kidnapped and killed. Like the military, they now had to travel by air.

The real question was, whether communism is spreading in spite of our involvement or because of it.

The attitude that the uneducated peasant lacked the political maturity to decide between communism and democracy and “. . . we are only doing this for your own good,” although it had a familiar colonialistic ring, at first seemed to have merit. Then I remembered that most of the villages would be under Viet Cong control for some of the time and under government control at other times. How many Americans had such a close look at both sides of the cloth? The more often government troops passed through an area, the more surely it would become sympathetic to the Viet Cong. The Viet Cong might sleep in the houses, but the government troops ransacked them. More often than not, the Viet Cong helped plant and harvest the crops; but invariably government troops in an area razed them. Rape is severely punished among the Viet Cong. It is so common among the ARVN that it is seldom reported for fear of even worse atrocities.

I saw the Airborne Brigade come into Nha Trang. Nha Trang is a government town and the Vietnamese Airborne Brigade are government troops. They were originally, in fact, trained by Special Forces, and they actually had the town in a grip of terror for three days. Merchants were collecting money to get them out of town; cafes and bars shut down.

The troops were accosting women on the streets. They would go into a place—a bar or cafe—and order varieties of food. When the checks came they wouldn’t pay them. Instead they would simply wreck the place, dumping over the tables and smashing dishes. While these men were accosting women, the police would just stand by, powerless or unwilling to help. In fact, the situation is so difficult that American troops, if in town at the same time as the Vietnamese Airborne Brigade, are told to stay off the streets at night to avoid coming to harm.

The whole thing was a lie. We weren’t preserving freedom in South Vietnam. There was no freedom to preserve. To voice opposition to the government meant jail or death. Neutralism was forbidden and punished. Newspapers that didn’t say the right thing were closed down. People are not even free to leave and Vietnam is one of those rare countries that doesn’t fill its American visa quota. It’s all there to see once the Red film is removed from the eyes. We aren’t the freedom fighters. We are the Russian tanks blasting the hopes of an Asian Hungary. . . .

When I returned from Vietnam I was asked, “Do you resent young people who have never been in Vietnam, or in any war, protesting it?” On the contrary, I am relieved. I think they should be commended. I had to wait until I was 35 years old, after spending 10 years in the Army and 18 months personally witnessing the stupidity of the war, before I could figure it out. That these young people were able to figure it out so quickly and so accurately is not only a credit to their intelligence but a great personal triumph over a lifetime of conditioning and indoctrination. I only hope that the picture I have tried to create will help other people come to the truth without wasting 10 years. Those people protesting the war in Vietnam are not against our boys in Vietnam. On the contrary. What they are against is our boys being in Vietnam. They are not unpatriotic. Again the opposite is true. They are opposed to people, our own and others, dying for a lie, thereby corrupting the very word democracy.

[snowmman 3]

Donald Duncan, according to his article was about 35 in 1966.
It's reasonable to think Braden was around a similar age.

If Braden is the Ohio dude, it would put him at around 38 in 1966.

In any case, it's reasonable to believe that Braden is in a good range for a suspect pool.

Duncan could tell us a lot. It's interesting to see the Montana connection we mused about for so long.

(edit) We could start a whole nother thread, debating whether Donald Duncan's words, returning from Vietnam, in 1966, still wring true today in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't know.


"Initially, training was aimed at having United States teams organize guerrilla movements in foreign countries. Emphasis was placed on the fact that guerrillas can’t take prisoners. We were continuously told “You don’t have to kill them yourself—let your indigenous counterpart do that.”

In a course entitled, “Countermeasures to Hostile Interrogation,” we were taught NKVD (Soviet Security) methods of torture to extract information. It became obvious that the title was only camouflage for teaching us “other” means of interrogation when time did not permit more sophisticated methods, for example, the old cold water-hot water treatment, or the delicate operation of lowering a man’s testicles into a jeweler’s vise.

When we asked directly if we were being told to use these methods the answer was, “We can’t tell you that. The Mothers of America wouldn’t approve.”

This sarcastic hypocrisy was greeted with laughs. Our own military teaches these and even worse things to American soldiers. They then condemn the Viet Cong guerrillas for supposedly doing those very things. I was later to witness firsthand the practice of turning prisoners over to ARVN for “interrogation” and the atrocities which ensued."

[snowmman 3]

CIA, Raborn, Osborn, Helms: getting pissed and going after Ramparts
from book "Secrets" http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mackenzie-secrets.html
The full page there is good stuff actually. It's from chapter one of:

Secrets
The CIA's War at Home
By ANGUS MACKENZIE
University of California Press
printed 1997 http://books.google.com/books?id=67XBXqSP9KgC


Conservatives Worry and the Cover-up Begins

Late at night at the watering holes of American intelligence agents, the mention of Stanley K. Sheinbaum's name can still arouse a muttering of anger. Sheinbaum was the first person to go public with his experience of CIA activity in the United States--a story about the Agency's infiltration of a legitimate civilian institution. Sheinbaum so embarrassed senior officials of the CIA that they set in motion an elaborate internal operation intended to prevent anyone else from ever doing what he had done.

Sheinbaum's connection with the CIA began in the 1950s, a period when security officers at the rapidly expanding Agency were sometimes overworked. On occasion they neglected to ask someone to sign a secrecy contract, which was normally a prerequisite of employment. Once signed, it committed a CIA agent to complete secrecy, beginning with the first day on the job and continuing until death. But Sheinbaum's association with the CIA was indirect, through a university that turned out to be working under contract with the Agency. He was never a CIA employee and, as far as he can remember, was never asked to sign a secrecy agreement. During his days as a doctoral student at Stanford University and as a Fulbright fellow in Paris, Sheinbaum developed a strong interest in helping the economies of underdeveloped nations expand. When his Fulbright ran out in the summer of 1995, he landed a position at Michigan State University, working on a $25 million government project to advise South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem. By 1957, Sheinbaum was coordinator of the project.

His new responsibilities included inspecting work in Vietnam. Before he went on a trip there in 1957, university officials told him about the general CIA connection; once there, Vietnamese officials informed him that his project staff included CIA officers. The revelation bothered him. He thought it inappropriate that he and other legitimate academic advisers were being used as cover for U.S. government manipulation. Sheinbaum left Vietnam feeling that his work and his program had been compromised. Upon his return to the United States, he was further entangled when he was called upon to meet with four top South Vietnamese officials in San Francisco. "Within an hour of their arrival," Sheinbaum later recalled, "the youngest, a nephew of Ngo Dinh Diem, conspiratorially drew me aside and informed me that one of the others was going to kill the eldest of the group." While taking steps to thwart the plot, Sheinbaum realized that his original goal, the economic improvement of impoverished nations, was getting lost in his administrative work as coordinator. His growing dismay--at what he later called the "unhealthy" CIA component and the general U.S. policy ... in Vietnam"--led him to resign from the project in 1959.

By this stage, however, Sheinbaum had information that was confidential. Following the buildup of U.S. troops in Vietnam and the assassination of Diem, Sheinbaum decided it was his patriotic duty to publicize information that he hoped might put the brakes on U.S. involvement. Writing about the connections between Michigan State University, the CIA, and the Saigon police (with the help of Robert Scheer, a young investigative reporter), the Sheinbaum story was to appear in the June 1966 issue of Ramparts magazine. The article disposed that Michigan State University had been secretly used by the CIA to train Saigon police and to keep an inventory of ammunition for grenade launchers, Browning automatic rifles, and .50 caliber machine guns, as well as to write the South Vietnamese constitution. The problem, in Sheinbaum's view, was that such secret funding of academics to execute government programs undercut scholarly integrity. When scholars are forced into a conflict of interest, he wrote, "where is the source of serious intellectual criticism that would help us avoid future Vietnams?"

Word of Sheinbaum's forthcoming article caused consternation on the seventh floor of CIA headquarters. On April 18, 1966, Director of Central Intelligence William F. Raborn Jr. notified his director of security that he wanted a "run down" on Ramparts magazine on a "high priority basis." This strongly worded order would prove to be a turning point for the Agency. To "run down" a domestic news publication because it had exposed questionable practices of the CIA was clearly in violation of the 1947 National Security Act's prohibition on domestic operations and meant the CIA eventually would have to engage in a cover-up. The CIA director of security, Howard J. Osborn, was also told: "The Director [Raborn] is particularly interested in the authors of the article, namely, Stanley Sheinbaum and Robert Scheer. He is also interested in any other individuals who worked for the magazine."

Osborn's deputies had just two days to prepare a special briefing on Ramparts for the director. By searching existing CIA files they were able to assemble dossiers on approximately twenty-two of the fifty-five Ramparts writers and editors, which itself indicates the Agency's penchant for collecting information on American critics of government policies. Osborn was able to tell Raborn that Ramparts had grown from a Catholic lay journal into a publication with a staff of more than fifty people in New York, Paris, and Munich, including two active members of the U.S. Communist Party. The most outspoken of the CIA critics at the magazine was not a Communist but a former Green Beret veteran, Donald Duncan. Duncan had written, according to then CIA Deputy Director Richard Helms, "We will continue to be in danger as long as the CIA is deciding policy and manipulating nations." Of immediate concern to Raborn, however, was Osborn's finding that Sheinbaum was in the process of exposing more CIA domestic organizations. The investigation of Ramparts was to be intensified, Raborn told Osborn.

At the same time, Helms passed information to President Lyndon Johnson's aide, William D. Moyers, about the plans of two Ramparts editors to run for Congress on an antiwar platform. Within days, the CIA had progressed from investigating a news publication to sending domestic political intelligence to the White House, just as a few members of Congress had feared nineteen years earlier.

Upon publication, Sheinbaum's article triggered a storm of protests from academicians and legislators across the country who saw the CIA's infiltration of a college campus as a threat to academic freedom. The outcry grew so loud that President Johnson felt he had to make a reassuring public statement and establish a task force to review any government activities that might endanger the integrity of the educational community. The task force was a collection of political statesmen--such as Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach and Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare John Gardner--but also included Richard Helms, the CIA official who himself had been dealing in political espionage. The purpose of the task force, it soon became clear, was to forestall further embarrassment and preclude any congressional investigation of CIA operations. Helms, furthermore, organized an internal task force of directorate chiefs to examine all CIA relationships with academic institutions but that review, from all appearances, was designed only to ensure that these operations remained secret.

Meanwhile, CIA officers spent April and May of 1966 identifying the source of Ramparts's money. Their target was executive editor Warren Hinckle, the magazine's chief fund-raiser and a man easy to track. He wore a black patch over one eye and made no secret of the difficult state of the magazine's finances as he continually begged a network of rich donors for operating funds. The agents also reported that Hinckle had launched a $2.5 million lawsuit against Alabama Governor George Wallace for calling the magazine pro-Communist (information that Osborn dutifully passed on to Raborn). The real point of the CIA investigation, however, was to place Ramparts reporters under such dose surveillance that any CIA officials involved in domestic operations would have time to rehearse cover stories before the reporters arrived to question them.

Next, Raborn broadened the scope of his investigation of Ramparts's staff by recruiting help from other agencies. On June 16, 1966, he ordered Osborn to "urge" the FBI to "investigate these people as a subversive unit." Osborn forwarded this request to the FBI, expressing the CIA's interest in anything the FBI might develop "of a derogatory nature." One CIA officer, who later inspected the CIA file of the Ramparts investigation, said that the Agency was trying to find a way of shutting down the magazine that would stand up in court, notwithstanding the constraints of the First Amendment.

[snowmman 3]

punchline:
In South Africa!

(edit) still looking for pilot for C-123K and kickers. No experience needed, just have to assure me you won't crash the plane.

(edit) Like Stanley K. Sheinbaum, I have never signed one of the aforementioned secrecy documents for the US government.

(edit) photo for 377 attached
(edit) interior shot for 377

taking tickets for a 10000-way.

(edit) Interesting. The NVA quoted Duncan in radio leaflets they would pass out (propaganda stations) (attached)

[snowmman 3]

This was one of the first books documenting the Vietnam experience.

Duncan wrote it the year after his Ramparts article.
http://www.amazon.com/new-legions-Donald-Duncan/dp/B0006D5MQI
cover attached with picture of Duncan



Title The new legions
Author Don Duncan
Publisher Random House, 1968
Original from the University of Michigan
Digitized May 26, 2006
Length 275 pages

[377 22]

Quote

(edit) photo for 377 attached
(edit) interior shot for 377

taking tickets for a 10000-way.

Boeing 747, even guppy modded, won't do. No tailgate.

The plane we should have bought was the C 133 that instead was donated to the Travis AFB museum last year. After the USAF retired the 133s this one sold military surplus for $20,000!!!

Check it out:

http://propliners.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6376074032/m/299103551

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

http://www.vietnamese-american.org/b10.html

"The army itself spies on itself. We used to make a joke of it at Fort Bragg: who is the CIA agent in the classroom? Or who is the man from Army Security Agency that could be pretending to be a student, but was, in fact, there to take notes to make sure what is taught. This carries over into our radio communications, and later on I will testify to an occasion in Vietnam where certain words are used on the radio that in fact mean something entirely different because our own Army Security Agency is monitoring these calls, and if there’s a legal proceeding the man can say: ‘Well, I didn’t say that, I said this’, and they can check the record and yes, that’s what he said; but the words, in fact, mean something else ..."

The interview is from the "Russell Tribunal" in 1967which appears to have been ignored in the US. (a show trial, kind of like Winter Soldiers)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Tribunal

see:
http://www.vietnamese-american.org/contents.html

Vietnam War > International War Crimes Tribunal - 1967

10 DONALD DUNCAN

Testimony and Questioning

Vladimir Dedijer: You served in Vietnam. How long, when did you go?

I went to Vietnam in March of 1964 and returned from Vietnam in September of 1965.

Dedijer: In which unit did you serve?

I was in the United States Army Special Forces, sometimes referred to as the Green Berets. I essentially had four different jobs while I was in Vietnam which took me from the northern provinces south of the 17th parallel to the Ca Mau peninsula.

Gisele Halimi: Mr President, I would like to ask you, to finish identifying the witness, to read to the Tribunal and the audience this piece of testimony. It is a letter of congratulation addressed to Sergeant Donald Duncan, which comes from the Headquarters of the 5th Special Forces Group of the US Army, because this will finish the witness’s identification.

Dedijer: I will read it. This is from the Headquarters 5th Special Forces Group Airborne, First Special Forces, APO US Forces 96240, 22 July 1965. Subject: Letter of Appreciation, to M-Sgt Donald W. Duncan, Headquarters, 5th Special Forces Group, ABM, First Special Forces, APO US Forces 96240: 1. I wish to express my appreciation for your outstanding presentation of facts and information of Special Forces activities to the Honorable Robert C. McNamara on 19 July 1965. 2. Throughout the entire presentation your knowledge of Special Forces activities and lucid oral expression employed were exceptional. 3. The salient points which you so aptly presented to the Secretary of Defense may have significant results on future support of Special Forces in {271} the Republic of Vietnam. You are to be congratulated for a job well done. This letter will be made a permanent part of your military 201 file. William A. MacKean, Col. Infantry Commander.

[snowmman 3]

storyboarding the movie.

Snowmman is showing 377 the plane he got, bragging about it's size.

377: "Nope. Even guppy modded, won't do. No tailgate."

Snowmman: "You want a tailgate?"

377: "Yeah. need a tailgate"

Snowmman picks up a sawzall, and 15 minutes later...

Snowmman: "You got a tailgate"

377: "Well, I got a hole"

Snowmman: "Good enough for government work. Can't see it from my where I live".

[377 22]

If I was picking my crew for a Mars landing I'd have to include Snow, a Sawzall, a good assortment of circuit test gear, spare parts, tools and a TIG welder. That oughta do it.

I am getting pretty good on the C 123K pack for MS Flight Sim Snow. I find if I modify those jet fuel controllers to let me exceed max TIT (turbine inlet temp, not some sexist term) I can baby those Pratt and Whitney R 2800 radials on takeoff. Sure the jets might blow up, but I spool em down once we reach 500 ft AGL with a positive rate of climb on just recip power.

How are you doing at Perris with your RV based recruiting drive? Finding any kickers among the screamers?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

Quote

If I was picking my crew for a Mars landing I'd have to include Snow, a Sawzall, a good assortment of circuit test gear, spare parts, tools and a TIG welder. That oughta do it.

NIKITA 377 & OLEG SNOWVIETSKI LAND ON MARS!

DUROC.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,


I tend to be quick to criticize… I try hard to be (equally) quick to praise.

A few days ago, I was thinking about making a post complaining about snowttroll’s posting style and the voluminous, serial posts he was making.

His posts were (are) so frequent, and so large that reading them and understanding them was out of the question. It was all I could do to just do a 30,000 foot flyover and see if I could find something worth digesting. I felt, and still feel (somewhat) that snowttroll has become absorbed in learning about things that happened in Viet Nam and lost sight of the “hunt for Cooper.”

I intended to try to be kind, but I wanted to express that (to me, at least) his posts were mostly a waste of bandwidth.

Well… I’ve changed my mind.

His extensive research of the activities, culture, beliefs, and affected warriors has adjusted my “culture goggles and made me think about a “new DB Cooper profile.” A profile that was obviously (or at least publically) ignored by the investigators.

I will be making a request (to the FBI) for information as to whether Ted. B. Braden and all his aliases (including Joseph Edward Homer) were investigated by the agencies in charge and to what extent these investigations (if they existed) were conducted.

From where I sit right now, Braden makes a much better candidate for Cooper than any of the “gang of suspects.” (i.e. Gossette, Christiansen, etc.) I understand that there may be 10,000 Braden-like characters out there all of which might be a better fit than Braden, but Braden is the one whom snowttroll has made “real.” I hope his posts here can equally broaden the FBI’s profile of Cooper and perceived probability of Cooper surviving the jump. (Yes, the FBI (or its representatives) frequently monitor posts on this thread, even if they choose not to admit it.)

So…. To sum this all up:

Hats off to snowttroll, for diligence, insight, intelligence, and perseverance. I think he has made a large, positive contribution to the search for a solution to NORJAK!



PS: I still think he is a troll (or displays troll-like characteristics). But… hey… we all have our shortcomings.

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[snowmman 3]

Hi Sluggo.
Well luckily all these questions about active or passive coverups and whatnot, and who killed who and why, can be resolved simply.

Someone just needs to find Braden. (I think he's still alive) and Duncan, and get their stories.

Will clear things right up and we can get back to the Cooper investigation.