DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

Jo, I (and everyone else on this board) knows full well that the US government has in the past covered things up. The possible difference with Braden is that we KNOW for a fact he was involved in stuff that was secret at the time. We have said to you all along - show us proof. (not wild accusations that every 'relevant' picture of RFK has suddenly disappeared from the public domain.)

fwiw, my gut feel re Braden is that if there was anything worth covering up it would have come to light by now - as other things have. but i am trying to keep an open mind. the second you can present us with a shred of evidence that remotely puts duane anywhere near that plane that night, open minds will turn back to you.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Quote

The government (all depts) never expected technology for the general public to advance so quickly. They haven't been able to stop the presses, freedom of speech, computer access...and the legal process. Thank God we still have a voice although sometimes never heard.

Jo,

On this we agree 100%.
The Internet has given whistle blowers on govt treachery an international stage.

Now anyone with a good story and Internet access can get it out to hundred of millions of people.

It is a hassle sometimes seperating the signals form the noise, but what a remarkable tool for exposing and fighting secrecy and corruption.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Took a sophomore level Philosophy course for my liberal elective. Always missed class.

I'm surprised, Snow. I don't know exactly what you studied but presume sciences. Mathematics and Philosophy have always seemed to me like wonderful subjects to study in tandem.

let's see, now I'm reminiscing.

Senior year: 3 of us shared a basement apt. 2 guys 1 girl....which is a long story.

I remember a Govt. 101 writing course: it was focused on revolutions. I still have my papers from then. Hmm. might not be good for Homeland Security to see those. Crazy guy with red hair and handlebar mustache was our T.A.

A Lit course on Comedies: I remember the professor having just a little too much fun reading passages from "Lolita".
What else there...."The Importance of Being Earnest"
Orange1 would have liked that class/professor.

[377 22]

Quote

i am trying to keep an open mind. the second you can present us with a shred of evidence that remotely puts duane anywhere near that plane that night, open minds will turn back to you.

Glad to see you havent ceded your Jo duties completely to me Orange.

I don't know why I do it, but I continue to search for evidence of California state prison inmate smoke jumpers because Jo swears she saw a photo of some along with a short article/caption.

So far nothing and quite a bit of contrary evidence, though no definitive proof either way.

The mysterious disappearance of photo evidence seems to be a common theme in Jo's search for the truth.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377 wondered "Besides, it is more exciting to think of Braden holding some REALLY BIG secrets, perhaps ones not yet revealed to the public even today."

His two secrets were

1) That anyone can skydive. It's no big deal.

2) That the insertion idea into Laos was a joke.


The coverup was mostly motivated by 1).
The military decided if that got out, none of their jumpers would get laid.

[snowmman 3]

377 said "Because of his refusal to show respect for the FBI, he was denied access to FBI documents and put on a "stop and harrass for any reason" license plate list distributed to local police departments countrywide."

When I was younger, I remember a cop stopped me in my beat up car, and when I wouldn't tell him why I had a newish vacuum cleaner in the back, he kept me on the side of the road for about an hour (in a small town) while he sat in his car on the radio...he was sure he'd find something on me.

I started to fall asleep.

Eventually went on my way with a ticket for a stop sign, but he never found out why I had the vacuum cleaner.

[377 22]

Quote

1) ...anyone can skydive. It's no big deal.

Talk about throwing your brothers under a bus.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

i am trying to keep an open mind. the second you can present us with a shred of evidence that remotely puts duane anywhere near that plane that night, open minds will turn back to you.

Glad to see you havent ceded your Jo duties completely to me Orange.

I don't know why I do it, but I continue to search for evidence of California state prison inmate smoke jumpers because Jo swears she saw a photo of some along with a short article/caption.

So far nothing and quite a bit of contrary evidence, though no definitive proof either way.

The mysterious disappearance of photo evidence seems to be a common theme in Jo's search for the truth.

377

I found exactly one match in a google search for prison smokejumpers: a movie made with that as the theme. I wonder if the photo wasn't a still from he movie...?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Dick Meadows is a classic example of how no one knew about these SOG guys even up to the early '80s.

Meadows was described by Plaster, I mentioned him a little.

A very good in-depth history of Meadows is here
http://www.specialforces.org/sfalx/docs/meadows.pdf

Even after retiring, he was involved in stuff, training...the Delta Force attempted rescue of the Iranian hostages, etc.

"Virtually no one outside the black ops and Special Forces community knew of Dick Meadows until he made the cover of Newsweek in the early 1980s"

Any investigation the FBI did in the '70s may have been pretty poor, just because all the info was still kept pretty close by these guys.

Snow, tie this in with your "obvious" suspects being investigated...?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Quote

When I was younger, I remember a cop stopped me in my beat up car, and when I wouldn't tell him why I had [WHAT LOOKED LIKE] a newish vacuum cleaner in the back, he kept me on the side of the road for about an hour (in a small town) while he sat in his car on the radio...he was sure he'd find something on me.

Had the cop taken any science courses and had just a tiny bit of curiousity he would have seen that the hose was a flexible waveguide and ...

So tell us Snow, what was it really?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Fascinating guy. (Yes I am a bit slow catching up on all the reading you have provided us with, Snow!)

Quote

in 1947 Meadows lied his age to become a 15-year-old paratrooper

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Orange1 said: "Snow, tie this in with your "obvious" suspects being investigated...?"

Yeah, I was thinking about the public when I mentioned Meadows.

I had forgotten that the CIA was running the show that turned into MACV-SOG, in the early '60s, and should have known.

And it was before I knew that the CIA collared Braden.

But other stuff I posted, about the FBI and a hunting license on the CIA (later on, with Kissinger) shows that the two didn't have a good relationship.

So to be fair, the US was just fucked...i.e. the FBI and CIA weren't really working together. Probably zero intercommunication. I forget what laws were in place, but the FBI was violating all sorts of stuff, the CIA was violating all sorts of stuff, so probably they each wanted to keep their own dirty laundry to themselves. Kind of like two mafia families, basically.

Except the mafia killed people. Oops, that doesn't provide a distinguishing feature here.

I guess the FBI/CIA still don't work together well, in any case..

Although in the papers they like to say they are.

Till I hear the stories about FBI folk banging CIA folk and vice versa, I ain't believing.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Fascinating guy. (Yes I am a bit slow catching up on all the reading you have provided us with, Snow!)

Quote

in 1947 Meadows lied his age to become a 15-year-old paratrooper

I won't accept the excuse that you're on another continent with limited download bandwidth, as an excuse for handing the final in late.

You admitted there is good coffee. So no excuses.

Yeah Meadows is amazing. Quite respected by his peers. I skimmed that paper, but I think there's a statue for him? The sculptor talked about why he made certain decisions about the memorial, to reflect on Meadows?

[snowmman 3]

Quote

So tell us Snow, what was it really?

377

It was a vacuum cleaner. What are vacuum cleaners used for? Evidence removal, of course. :)

I still have the medallion from that old Datsun. It was a classic. My first car. A friend mounted it on a little piece of wood and gave it to me.

I did have an early radar detector in that car. Speeding tickets led to many problems.

[377 22]

Quote

Quote

Quote

i am trying to keep an open mind. the second you can present us with a shred of evidence that remotely puts duane anywhere near that plane that night, open minds will turn back to you.

Glad to see you havent ceded your Jo duties completely to me Orange.

I don't know why I do it, but I continue to search for evidence of California state prison inmate smoke jumpers because Jo swears she saw a photo of some along with a short article/caption.

So far nothing and quite a bit of contrary evidence, though no definitive proof either way.

The mysterious disappearance of photo evidence seems to be a common theme in Jo's search for the truth.

377

I found exactly one match in a google search for prison smokejumpers: a movie made with that as the theme. I wonder if the photo wasn't a still from he movie...?

There are plenty of stories about prison GROUND fire crews, but I can't find any about inmate jumpers. Here is one where smoke jumpers were brought in to relieve an inmate fire crew;

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=336&dat=19870707&id=UAsPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CoQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6871,2418874

If Jo did see a movie poster I'd like to know so I can shut down my search.

Jo, any chance that what you saw was a still from a fictional movie about prisoner smoke jumpers? Did the caption indicate it was real news and not news about entertainment? What specifics do you recall?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

I queried all your girlfriends Snow and not one can recall you ever vacuuming, so I dont buy the story.

What kind of Datsun? I LOVED the old 510s. I rebuilt one of those engines myself and put a Weber carb on it. Good power to weight ratio and 4 wheel indpdt suspension. If it was a 510 you probably could have escaped from the cop if he was driving a Crown Vic.

If you'd endure a one hour stop rather than answer a few questions about a vacuum cleaner I'll tell Ckret to forget bringing in Bill Clinton to mediate a Snowmman-FBI truce.

What is your recollection about the rubber bands Snow? I think their condition might rule out a lot of theories and time lines about the money arrival at T Bar.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377 asked "What is your recollection about the rubber bands Snow? I think their condition might rule out a lot of theories and time lines about the money arrival at T Bar. "

I ignore the rubber bands. That information is too weak. There's no data other than testimony, from people we've never seen.

If we want to use rubber band testimony, we need the parent's testimony about the whole path of the money, all the way to the kitchen, and then to the FBI. Like how long it took to dry, etc.

The rubber band data is weaker than our knowledge of shoe testimony.

So I ignore it.

I do look at the nice high res photos of the bills a lot.
and the photos from 1980 (vid snaps)
and the snaps from the various books showing the bills from 1980.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

I kept telling Tom "this is science Tom. You can't
make large assumptions like this".

You need to have this conversation with him again Georger.

Engineers don't really do science, but we know enough about it to recognize when it isn't being practiced. I didn't see science on the TV show.

I'd guess you are a scientist by training, not an engineer. Correct?

377

science first, engineering second, but the
two can be intimately connected and usually are in
the end if the goal is things that work in the real world.

But people get dug in and defensive and impossible
to move, in their positions. The history of science
is full of this. Likewise human affairs.

On the upside we now have three distinct theories,
flight paths, dropzones, . . . only one or none can
be true.

[georger 247]

All you can say is that processes like that produced certain results. Would other processes work? Maybe? But sometimes the experiment only gets done once.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Took a sophomore level Philosophy course for my liberal elective. Always missed class.

I'm surprised, Snow. I don't know exactly what you studied but presume sciences. Mathematics and Philosophy have always seemed to me like wonderful subjects to study in tandem.

likewise music, math, and phil/science.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

put a Weber carb on it.

uh-oh...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

Now building the first atomic bomb: was that different? I think not. Assume you could do it and it would blow up. Then you gather the resources and materials to show you were right.

Although the Manhattan Project had a world class team of physicists working on it, I have always viewed it as an engineering project not scientific research.

About those rubber bands, didn't a manufacturer give an opinion that flew in the face of a bunch of FBI conclusions?

377

I dont know that the FBI had a lot of conclusions about the rubber bands. I dont know what
passed between the FBI and the maker, if anything.
I have no evidence the FBI ever contacted the maker.

The owner of the company told me they had engineering tests of the bands but we waited for
the data, never got it, many phone calls passed
back and forth, and I dont know that Tom ever
got the maker's data, or the FBI either. I cannot
speak for the maker. I dont know if anyone can
but for me it became a major disappointment.

Thankfully many discussions did occur over the
phone. The maker described his data. I finally
took that as tantamount to having the data itself,
was was a risk on my end. (Thats not good science).
Tom was on board through all of this and knows
everything I was told by the maker.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

(Edited for being brief)
Eventually the tie was used to try and pull dna.

Georger: There was some mention of a pollen or spores found on the tie by Kaye. Is this correct?

If so - I believe we can limited the pollen obtaining these spores or whatever you want to call them from the Agriculture Dept. of GA, KS, MO, AL, Fl and S.C.

Surely that would limit the comparisons. There must be a data bank on these with the Agriculture Dept. of these states.

If Kaye has the analysis on the spore or pollen - couldn't it be compared with existing data?

I am thinking that we might get someone in the Depts of these States to volunteer their time to check this spore or pollen against what they have in their data bases. If we get a hit on any of these states - then we know where that tie has been.

I suppose we need to include WA and OR in that group encase it was recent exposure from Coopers stay. I wondered to myself (always to myself - remember I am crazy) if this was not possible.

These states seem to have a connection with other suspects besides Weber...and would be a good starting point. I know such a data base is available for Ky so why not other states.

I cant speak to the pollen. It has been an issue
for a long time.

[Orange1 0]

Modern-day mercenaries in Africa. I haven't read it yet, but I plan to.

http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=6353972

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Modern-day mercenaries in Africa. I haven't read it yet, but I plan to.

http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=6353972

2004 I see.
Yeah it's a competitive market.
377: we may need to expand the air force. Not because of South Africa defenses, but because we may need to fight off competing invaders.

Hey I read in Plaster's book how they saw 2 soviet helicopters under camo, belonging to NVA on one insertion. People didn't believe them, saying NVA didn't have helis.

Other disbelief was when they reported elephants being used. Didn't believe until one RT leader brought back elephant dung in a plastic bag.

Now, it's crazy to think that multiple parties may be planning simultaneous invasions of South Africa, quibbling over details like coffee.

After all, this is 2004....I mean 2009.