DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

okay you're looking at wind effects against the direction of travel, over a time period, assuming straight line travel.

What you're saying is that if the wind was against the wind of travel only, it wasn't that strong. But we know it was strong, so it must not have been against the direction of travel.

We also know it must not have been with the direction of travel.
Is that right?

The problem with a canopy deployment to Tena Bar is that it makes no sense that the money would be found 9 years later, in that case?

The more likely cases seem to be: Cooper in the Columbia, money displaced by dredge somehow.

Or Cooper deploys elsewhere, and plants money at Tena Bar.

Here's a weird thing: Jerry is convinced Cooper is dead. Why is Jerry so fixated on making him dead in the Washougal? Why isn't jumping into the Columbia just as good?

I mean, if you want Cooper to be a bozo, he's a bozo either way.

Sluggo asked Himmelsbach, the same questions about how H. a pilot, could conceive of 305 being so far off. The answer was that they were given free rein to fly whereever they liked. (H. didn't appear to be aware or had ever seen radar data...so it makes sense to dismiss H. as no more insightful as Jo Blow on the street).

I don't think H. addressed the issue of correlating random flight paths to the transcripts, or to the issue of avoiding Mt St. Helens and other obstacles.

How come people say I'm looking for sinister when I'm just asking questions?

How come no one wants to talk about Zazi?
What's important about having him jump in the woods?

Himmelsbach likes him in the woods. I think that's why.

Georger's random calcs for landing in the water assume there's nothing that attracts Cooper to one spot over another. The lights of Portland and Vancouver are an obvious attractor. Being attracted to those lights, dramatically increases the probability of landing in the water.

Also note the plane didn't take the shortest path over the Columbia. It's curving around PDX lengthened the amount of time spent near the Columbia.

It's interesting to think that the FBI could pursue their dead Cooper investigation better. if they just put together "stuff" that said most likely Cooper landed in the Columbia.

Why don't they do that?

[georger 244]

Nice modeling of the canopy drift to Tena Bar. What are the dependant variables required to drift to Tena Bar versus 'float'?

There is no forensic data which would indicate 305 deviating more than 3 or 4 miles from centerline of the assigned airway. Keep in mind Portland International was/is quite capable of watching their airspace and made no contact or mention of an aircraft so terminally lost. This being flown by a crew which just hours before made the same journey without incident and made the following position reports and navigated to Reno just fine.

[georger 244]

What you're saying is that if the wind was against the wind of travel only, it wasn't that strong. But we know it was strong, so it must not have been against the direction of travel.

We also know it must not have been with the direction of travel.
Is that right?

[georger 244]

Georger's random calcs for landing in the water assume there's nothing that attracts Cooper to one spot over another. The lights of Portland and Vancouver are an obvious attractor. Being attracted to those lights, dramatically increases the probability of landing in the water.

Also note the plane didn't take the shortest path over the Columbia. It's curving around PDX lengthened the amount of time spent near the Columbia.

[snowmman 3]

I thought the jumpers with experience in the issue, said you'd be able to see the glow of lights thru the clouds.

When you fly commerical jets as passenger, and it's cloudy, can you see cities lit thru the clouds? (especially if the surrounding area is not very populated, like in WA at the time (and even now))

[377 22]

Welcome farflung. Anyone who knows what an RMI is probably flies complex acft.

The C 9 type canopy drift modelng is quite good I think.

I was involved in some HAHO telemetry yesterday. We opened high (13 to 14 K) and downlinked GPS data. The ram air canopies have a 3:1 or better L/D but the data might be interesting. Except for occasional circles we flew upwind since winds were high. I can PM you the data if you wish

What do you fly?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Snow

I do think the warning horn would have sounded with that config, but it can be silenced by pulling a circuit breaker. Disabled horns have lead to crashes.

Your diabolical organic bomb using the planes emergency oxygen tank and filling the toilet tank with an exlosive mixture shows some creativity. The new vacuum toilets wouldn't give you easy access to the holding tank but the old ones would have.

I still wonder if Cooper was removng colored contacts when he spent that extended time in the rear lav.

I do think flight path dialogue is far more productive than Jo bashing. Somewhere out there is Coopers rig. Dead or alive that rig stays in the landing area. An accurate fight path would sure help.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

Quote

I thought the jumpers with experience in the issue, said you'd be able to see the glow of lights thru the clouds.

When you fly commerical jets as passenger, and it's cloudy, can you see cities lit thru the clouds? (especially if the surrounding area is not very populated, like in WA at the time (and even now))

yes, I have always said I thought Cooper would
see skyglow from 10k feet especially with a ceiling
of 3500-5000 ft, but you and others always said
I was wrong. No you are arguing for it (because it
suits your current needs?).

One fact is sure. I have always said Cooper
could see skyglow from VCR-PDX. Key word is
"could". Did he? I have no idea what he saw
especially if he was already out the plane
near BTG.

Rat said he could see the suburbs of Portland coming up, at night. That assumes lights. So if
Rat saw lights from 10k feet why could Cooper not
see lights?

[edit] I also have the 6:00pm NOAA chart for
11-24-71 which clearly shows rotating cells (counter
clockwiose) moving up the V23 corridor ... which is
consistent with Bohan's report, ie turbulence. If you
take the wx map at face value there were CCW rotating cells which anyone parachuting into that
area may have encountered ... which again is
consistent with Bohan's report of winds 'right on my nose' from 166* as he approached PDX.

If Cooper bailed early or further east off V23 then
maybe he didnt encounter these cells? Jerry
says he didn;t BUT even Jerry agrees with the
rotating cells (turbulence and cross winds) in that
area at that time of year... which Bohan reported.

It's something to keep in mind.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Snow
I do think the warning horn would have sounded with that config, but it can be silenced by pulling a circuit breaker. Disabled horns have lead to crashes.

per http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/list/69-12-02?OpenDocument

Airworthiness Directive
Federal Aviation Administration
14 CFR Part 39
Amendment 39-813; AD 69-12-02
BOEING 707/720 and 727 Series Airplanes

DATES: Effective September 9, 1969.

BOEING: Amendment 39-813: 707/720 and 727 series airplanes. Applies to all Boeing 707/720 and 727 series airplanes, as appropriate.

3. For Models 727/727C/727-200 ADD NEW PARAGRAPH HEADING "WARNING HORN" IN SECTION 3, to read:

WARNING HORN
LANDING

The warning horn will sound when any thrust lever is retarded or the flap control lever is retarded or the flap control lever is in the 30 degree or 40 degree detent with the landing gear in an "unsafe to land position."

CABIN PRESSURIZATION

The warning horn will sound intermittently whenever the cabin altitude exceeds 10,000 feet.

[snowmman 3]

georger said
"yes, I have always said I thought Cooper would
see skyglow from 10k feet especially with a ceiling
of 3500-5000 ft, but you and others always said
I was wrong. No you are arguing for it (because it
suits your current needs?)."

I tried searching for where people said anything negative about skyglow. Me or others. couldn't find it.
maybe you could point me to it.

Why would anyone argue against glow thru clouds?

ah okay found one by me. I was saying that an experienced jumper might not spot on the city lights because he'd be worried about the water.

here
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3445850;search_string=vancouver%20lights;#3445850

[lodestar 0]

Right this moment on DishTV ch 276 (NGEO) one hour special on DB Cooper.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

here's another interesting "body not found" case
I'm not sure of the overall long-term stats for the Columbia

Oct 11, 1972 Spokane Daily Chronicle
Portland, OR

Searchers yesterday recovered the fuselage of a light plane which crashed Oct 4 into the Columbia river [ed. the one I reported before was a different one].

It was found a mile south of the mouth of the Williamette River and about 75 yards downstream from where the plane apparently crashed, said Sg. Donald McNamara of the Multnomah County sheriff's river patrol.

McNamara said the search for the body of the pilot of the rented plane, 53-year old Dr. J. Maxson Reeves, would continue.

Other parts of the plane and it's log book were found shortly after the crash.

Reeves was vice president and dean of the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ALMSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mfgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4212,3399348&dq=body+columbia-river

I didn't find any subsequent reports of the body being found.

(edit) This report from Oct 5, 1972 sounds like the first report of the plane crash. Cessna 150.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=wpcSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gvcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2675,377613&dq=columbia-river+airplane+crash

This is very interesting Snow; they found the wreckage, the plane, the log book. Now...(assuming it wasn't another case like that one recently where the guy put the plane on autopilot then jumped out, to fake his death) this is an example of how difficult it might be to find a body even when the search area is reasonably well defined.
River drift? Crawfish? Other predators? Is there a Bermuda Triangle effect over the Columbia??!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

everything I read from "law enforcement sources" about this Zazi thing sounds insane.

I can't believe they refer to this as "varsity level"

I read one thing where they claimed, he was going to pick up the materials for some massive plot "on the way" from Denver to NY.

??? You build a big bomb, and you drive to NY and pick up stuff "on the way" for it??

I thought it was funny that the drunk guys in camo with loaded AR-15 and .45 pistol, were arrested at Zazi's complex. They said "they heard a shot and went to investigate".

So American.

I'm still wondering about these supposed hand-written notes distributed by computer, where the handwriting opinion (in the warrant) is from someone not trained in handwriting analysis.

Are they saying Zazi wrote/drew something, then took a picture of it or scanned it, and then emailed it around?

Can you imagine if Zazi had a loaded AR-15 like the drunk guys in camo? They would have hanged him already.

What's the connection to Cooper: The FBI is still incompetent.

[377 22]

Quote

McNamara said the search for the body of the pilot of the rented plane, 53-year old Dr. J. Maxson Reeves, would continue.

Clearly another propeller snag.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Farflung 0]

georger,
Questions:

1. I sure agree there is no known forensic evidence
305 deviated much from V23 ... I want to be clear
this is what you are saying? I assume YES?

2. How do you account for the "bump" at ~8:12
as distinct from oscillations? Do you have a physical
explanation for the pressure bump, if it was a bump
which I guess it was? (Bump as distinct from surge?)

3. How do you account for Rat saying: 'I could
see the suburbs of Portland coming up...' ?

4. How and when do you think the money got to
T-Bar? Even a personal guess .... ?

5. You refer to Cooper's "occupation"? What did
you mean?
Answers:

1. I have not been able to cross reference any positional reporting with DME, station crossings with IAS or other aircraft performance data which would indicate a deviation greater than one minute or 4 nautical miles from ground truth. If a nav leg is 85 NM straight line, with a reported indicated airspeed of 170 knots with an elapsed time of 29 or 31 minutes, there remains very little wiggle room for serpentine flight patterns or throttle adjustments. The fortuitous extrapolated winds aloft made the flight profile the most reliable element of the journey. Imagine if Cooper actually had some pre determined intersection to fly towards which was not on the airways chart? He could have ordered any NavAid to any radial and DME without regard for terrain avoidance! Additionally, with a 'nut' in the back of the plane lighting cigarettes above half a dozen sticks of high explosive while sipping bourbon would mark the highest level of awareness achieved in my time on the planet. Your mileage may vary. Considering these collective stresses, I would imagine the airmanship demonstrated by this crew was among their finest.

2. This is the question to possibly narrow the time Cooper departed. There are two different adjectives used by the FO and the FE. One used oscillation which I interpret to mean pulse or asymmetric yaw as if Cooper was moving down the stairs, step by step at the extreme end of the aft CG. This is just my GUESS. During the sled launch after the hijacking, the FE remarked when the sled was dropped there was a distinct pressure bump and jump on the cabin pressure indicator similar to the one experienced the night of the hijacking. This would seem a logical result of the weight being relieved from the aft stair. I have not found any reference to what time or where this occurred during the flight. I also assumed, the person flying would have noticed the sudden need for some trim adjustments after dumping several hundred pounds from such an aft location. That's my long chicken guano cop out answer.

3. The lights of Portland from an aviators perspective may have been the byproduct of spotting the HIRL, runway end and sequence flashers from PDX, Troutdale and Hillsboro. Airport lights are designed to be visible to aircraft through fog where the typical suburban lights are lower intensity and pointed toward the ground. The weather at SEA was discussed as 5 to 5.5 thousand and broken with light and traffic reporting aircraft in the pattern. Cooper was quoted as recognizing the lights of Tacoma (I believe). After takeoff they were at 7,000 feet while lowering the stairs and made no mention of wanting to climb higher or any chop. They continued to 10,000 feet without mention of any weather considerations, just altimeter changes in a range of 29.91 to 30.03 inches. Yes, I believe there was rain and overcast; just not the thick, menacing, lightening generating gully washer type. Recall how Cooper is described as ordinary, nothing special yet is wearing wrap around sunglasses during a thick overcast? I would consider a person wearing black sunglasses during a 'storm' as a little unusual.

4. Tena Bar is the ultimate of two wild cards dealt, in my opinion. Was a 30 foot red and yellow canopy or half a mile of lines discovered? Nope. A briefcase with some road flares and batteries? Nope. A canvas bank bag on the shoreline? Nope. Anything resembling a harness, D-ring or webbing? Nope. But the two most impossibly delicate remnants being a placard discovered in BFE by a litter conscience hunter! Combined with that US Treasury linen buried on the shores of the Columbia for a vacationing family to discover in February! These two events are so unlikely as to make NOT finding the other stuff appear strange. The only thought I have given Tena Bar is - water always finds it's level and that is down; and down the path of least resistance. So many years, could it have been in cold storage in Vancouver Lake? Did Cooper surgically prang himself into a mud flat/bar where the anaerobic environment would be less destructive to paper until a flood or dredge released the remains?

5. Sorry, I was trying to be a smart donkey with that reference. The paradox of accepting Coopers ability to precisely jump and land with an unwieldy 20 pound cloth covered hammer and escape detection or capture would make him an expert hijacker using the aft stairs of a 727. While also accepting as logical an experienced airline crew who just used the same airway suddenly blundering across the skies like Helen Keller with a wasps nest in the cockpit. I have NO idea what he may have done for a living.

[377 22]

Quote

2. This is the question to possibly narrow the time Cooper departed. There are two different adjectives used by the FO and the FE. One used oscillation which I interpret to mean pulse or asymmetric yaw as if Cooper was moving down the stairs, step by step at the extreme end of the aft CG.

Do you mean pitch? Yaw seems unlikely.

The autopilots of that era had a pretty fast response time as soon as they sensed a change signal from the vertical gyro ref.

I really like it that we are exploring flight paths instead of pathology.

I too have pondered the strangeness of finding a door placard and some bills but no canopy, no rig, and no body.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

I thought it was funny that the drunk guys in camo with loaded AR-15 and .45 pistol, were arrested at Zazi's complex. They said "they heard a shot and went to investigate".

So American.

The drunk guys in cammo theat I know would never get up to investigate. Despite a safe full of weapons, night vision scopes and tons of ammo, they sit in a near coma in front of their big screens grumbling about Obama, immigrants and predicting an imminent revolution by like minded type 2 diabetic patriots.

I am just as American as they are. The right wing has no monopoly on patriotism.

And whats the cammo fetish all about? Even our police SWAT team wears it, which is absurd in an urban setting if you think about it.

Jumpers are always pushing the limits. I am surprised one doesnt convince a sponsor to do a REAL AUTHENTIC NORJACK jump TV special, in a winter storm, from a 727, in Cooper garb, with an NB 6 (or 8?), with a load of $1 bills equivalent to the size and weight of the loot etc.

Giraldo Rivera should be all over this. Does the Cooper jumper live or die? Does he make it through the night? Tune in at 8 PM. on pay per view.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

farflung mentioned "30 foot red and yellow canopy"

Gunther I think mentioned red and yellow
But I thought that most of the reporting talked about a white canopy.

I thought Ckret verified this?

Farflung: why did you mention red and yellow?
(and why 30 foot?)

[Farflung 0]

377,

Thank you for the correction, it was PITCH not yaw. What would Freud have said?

I am under the belief that 305 was being hand flown since the auto pilot would not operate in their configuration (gear down, flaps N degrees, MCA, aft stair disengaged, etc) of course this could be some lore which I have manufactured and choose to make part of my reality.

I'm equally intrigued by the dynamic character of the ground below V-23 from points 12 nautical miles north and south of Battle Ground. Approximately 8 minutes of flight from relatively wooded and sparse to some of the most dense urban area in the northwest.

Any idea the exact location of that placard? Any clue about the free fall characteristics of a six inch squared piece of sheet plastic?

[snowmman 3]

I think people are stretching on the placard thing.

There is no forensic evidence connecting the placard to Cooper's 727.

Are we sure it was an internal placard? There are no external placarrds I would think, even though the stairs are openable from outside on the runway. Are all external information painted on?

Does anyone know this? I thought I remember reading someone claim that the external ones fall off..if so, and since there were lots of 727s there...if the placard could have been external..then who knows where it came from?

[snowmman 3]

Farflung said: "Any clue about the free fall characteristics of a six inch squared piece of sheet plastic?"

Think about leaves flying in the wind. They don't fly like kites.
A chaotic unstable oscillation. Acts like a parachute actually.
You can simulate a descent rate. The slow descent rate is what gives you travel in the wind direction.

But no lift or anything, like a kite. Or at least very little (only lift from upward wind currents?)

I read a little on this, but that's my guess.

[Farflung 0]

Snowman,

I was taking liberties with some of the parameters in my post. 30 foot red and yellow widget versus a more precise description. My failed point was the improbability of discovering a small piece of sheet plastic in the woods by a man who had the brains to realize it may have come from an aircraft and notify the authorities.

I was not trying to introduce new information nor muddy the waters.

[377 22]

Quote

I am under the belief that 305 was being hand flown since the auto pilot would not operate in their configuration (gear down, flaps N degrees, MCA, aft stair disengaged, etc) of course this could be some lore which I have manufactured and choose to make part of my reality.

Most 727 autopilots could fly coupled approaches where the ILS not the plane's gyros supplied the commands. Gear and flaps are deployed on approach. Doubt if gear, flaps, or even a door/stair alarm would cause an autopilot disconnect.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

Any idea the exact location of that placard? Any clue about the free fall characteristics of a six inch squared piece of sheet plastic?

[377 22]

Quote

Farflung said: "Any clue about the free fall characteristics of a six inch squared piece of sheet plastic?"

Think about leaves flying in the wind. They don't fly like kites.
A chaotic unstable oscillation. Acts like a parachute actually.
You can simulate a descent rate. The slow descent rate is what gives you travel in the wind direction.

But no lift or anything, like a kite. Or at least very little (only lift from upward wind currents?)

I think Snow's seat of the pants modeling of the placard descent is reasonably accurate but... Decades ago, over the Livermore CA DZ I passed a fluttering candy bar wrapper at about 1800 feet AGL while descending under a C9 round canopy. Doubt if it was tossed from a plane.

377

I read a little on this, but that's my guess.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.