DB Cooper

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,


After I made the post about not seeing the lights on Merwin Dam when flying very close to it, I started thinking about visual cognition and how it affects eye-witnesses (hence this long post).

Here is an experience I had that changed the way I think about eyewitnesses:

In about 2004 while at a workshop I participated (along with 10 other people *) in an exercise (not an experiment) on visual cognition. [Note: I tried to think of ways to present this so you would get to have the same experience that I did, but it would be impossible to do on this forum.]

University of Illinois professor Daniel J. Simons has conducted visual cognition experiments and made videos that can be used in lectures and demonstrations. Here’s the one we did:

About six young people, standing in a circle, were filmed for about 25 seconds. They were passing two basketballs to each other while moving is a random pattern. We were asked to watch the video. Since the subjects of the video were “weaving and bobbing” as they passed the balls to each other the scene was visually active and somewhat confusing.

Before being shown the video we were told we had a task to perform. We were asked to count the total number of times the balls were passed from person to person. We were instructed to make no comments during or after the viewing.

After viewing the video the facilitator asked each person in the group how many times the ball was passed. Most said; “27 – 30.” Then he asked (by show of hands only); “How many saw the gorilla?”

1 of the 11 people raised their hand. [Side Note: This guy was the mega-nerd of the group, he was a PhD in Math and Physics, our statistician, and his “ball count” was about 10 (much lower than everyone else). I’m just throwing that in because it intrigued me, the social outcast, saw something different that all the others.]

A discussion followed, that at times became rather heated. Most people (the other 10), including me, said; “No F’’ing way!”

We then were allowed to view the video again with no assignment other than to find the gorilla and/or prove Dr. Nerd wrong.

Well, when I watched again I saw a gorilla (a person in a gorilla suit) stroll into the middle of the group, belligerently thump his chest (as if to say; “You’re a useless eye-witness,”) and stroll off. The gorilla was visible for 9 of the 25 seconds of the video.

Needless to say, I WAS FLOORED!

You can view this video (Flash Video) at: Basketball Movie

Why don’t you show it to your friends (if you have any
Also, many of Dr. Simons’ experiments can be found here (all Flash Videos):
Several Visual Cognition Experiments I find the person change demonstrations fascinating.

Don’t you think if you were giving a person directions and someone interrupted you (your vision of the other person) you would recognize that a new person had been substituted for the previous one? 35% -50% (depending on in-group/out-group identification) failed to notice that they were talking to a different person. (All construction workers look the same to me!
So, in conclusion, maybe since I was flying at night, focusing on navigation and "flight-safety” task, I was “counting basketball transfers” instead of looking for gorillas.

But, this opens a broader issue (at least in my feeble mind) about how much we are relying on eyewitness accounts. I know we’ve been over this territory before, but many people put a lot of stock in what Bill Mitchell is reported to have said about Cooper’s clothing (i.e. He had on long underwear and slip-on boots). Mitchell supposedly did not wish to relocate (in the plane) because he was studying. Maybe his focus on the subjects at hand, kept him from being a reliable witness.


* Yes, I realize that 11 people is not a big enough group to constitute a scientific study and draw absolute conclusions, that’s why I used “exercise” instead of “experiment.”


Sluggo

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[Orange1 0]

Very interesting, Sluggo!
Also re what I said before: I was very surprised that the person at the check-in counter seemed to recall Cooper so well. Why would he have taken any special notice of just another passenger?
Clearly the stews would have had good reason to take good notice, on the other hand.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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I posted the engineering drawings for the 1940 tower.
Here is more detail. It remained until 1976

there was another tower from 1915-1923

Beautiful photos of both attached, and the 1940's tower in 1964
You can see the 1945 picture matches the engineering drawings (the cabin on top was not in the engineering drawings, although I suspect that was a standard design, and might be on the site I posted)

The 1915 tower built on trees is freaking amazing!

from
http://www.firelookout.com/or/larchmtn.html
LARCH MOUNTAIN LOOKOUT
R.I.P. 1915-1923; 1940's-1976
Established in 1914 with a platform and cab atop two 90' fir trees, a 90' steel tower and a ground house replaced it in 1923. In the 1940's, a 100' treated timber L-4 tower was built with a tourist observation deck below the cab. The structure was removed in 1976.

Apparently when it was removed, one of the workers found a twenty dollar bill stuffed in a timber joint (between the steel plate and wood).

While you guys were so busy insulting each other, someone slipped a cog and started mixing fire towers.

You see, there are two Larch Mountains:
1. Larch Mountain, OR in Multnomah County, OR. Located at N 45 31.9656 and W 122 05.268 WGS84
2. Larch Mountain, WA in Clark County, WA. Located at N 45 43.010 and W 122 17.751 WGS84

They are 17.78 statute miles apart.

I guess someone failed to see the gorilla.

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NORJAK Forum

[377 22]

Sluggo. That truly amazing experiment proves Sasquatches exist and why so few have claimed to see one.

My crminal defense trial clinic instructor told our class that eyewitness testimony in high stress crimes like armed robbery are nearly worthless. He said if it exonerates your client don't mess with it. If it nails him hire an expert witness from Stanford to show the jury how undependable it is and attack the hell out of it.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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How will you feel about the way I have been treated if Weber turns out to be Cooper

I'll feel badly and I would apologise Jo.

How will you feel if it turns out that Duane had zero connection to Cooper?

You said you had PROOF that Duane was Cooper. Why are you not showing it and enduring all this preventable ridicule?

Are you a masochist or might you have written a big check and be a little short in the evidence account?

Bouncing has a particular meaning to jumpers. Your Duane check has bounced Jo.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[happythoughts 0]

FBI

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The hijacker had no help on the ground, either. To have utilized an accomplice, Cooper would’ve needed to coordinate closely with the flight crew so he could jump at just the right moment and hit the right drop zone. But Cooper simply said, "Fly to Mexico," and he had no idea where he was when he jumped. There was also no visibility of the ground due to cloud cover at 5,000 feet.

According to the FBI, no ground visibility.
I believe that would include towers.

I think that he had no idea where he jumped.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Boy! I'm glad you said Stanford instead of UC Berkly. Because, everyone knows..... you know the drill.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

I posted the engineering drawings for the 1940 tower.
Here is more detail. It remained until 1976

there was another tower from 1915-1923

Beautiful photos of both attached, and the 1940's tower in 1964
You can see the 1945 picture matches the engineering drawings (the cabin on top was not in the engineering drawings, although I suspect that was a standard design, and might be on the site I posted)

The 1915 tower built on trees is freaking amazing!

from
http://www.firelookout.com/or/larchmtn.html
LARCH MOUNTAIN LOOKOUT
R.I.P. 1915-1923; 1940's-1976
Established in 1914 with a platform and cab atop two 90' fir trees, a 90' steel tower and a ground house replaced it in 1923. In the 1940's, a 100' treated timber L-4 tower was built with a tourist observation deck below the cab. The structure was removed in 1976.

Apparently when it was removed, one of the workers found a twenty dollar bill stuffed in a timber joint (between the steel plate and wood).

While you guys were so busy insulting each other, someone slipped a cog and started mixing fire towers.

You see, there are two Larch Mountains:
1. Larch Mountain, OR in Multnomah County, OR. Located at N 45 31.9656 and W 122 05.268 WGS84
2. Larch Mountain, WA in Clark County, WA. Located at N 45 43.010 and W 122 17.751 WGS84

They are 17.78 statute miles apart.

I guess someone failed to see the gorilla.

Hey okay, let's go thru it again then.
I'm not sure which pictures were which, in the stuff I posted.

Can we walk thru them and clarify?

The views to me seemed consistent with the inland forest I was expecting, so it didn't trigger anything.

Are you saying the wood tower pictures I posted aren't the correct ones?


So are you saying that Duane Weber got confused?

Or: are you saying when Jerry does my heli insert, that my plan to orient using tower lights, will be thwarted because when he takes the blindfold off, there will be no tower lights, plus I will be orienting to the wrong Larch mtn?

This is getting very confusing.

Could Duane Weber have gotten similarly confused? How did Duane Weber pull it off, if so?

[snowmman 3]

Sluggo: are you saying then, that Duane Weber was Cooper?

[snowmman 3]

sluggo said “How many saw the gorilla?”


The right answer was there was no gorilla.
I just watched the video.

Why didn't the professor say "How many people saw the guy in a gorilla suit?"

The professor's experiment was flawed.

(edit) Note: I can also ask you: how many people were wearing shoes?

If you can't answer, what does that mean?

Dumbass experiment. The word "gorilla" conjures up an implied obviousness.

How many women were in the video? Shouldn't that have been obvious too?

How many Asian?

How many with glasses?

How many times did the elevator door open? Was there an elevator door? What floor was it on?

[snowmman 3]

I think the better analysis of that experiment is to see who got the ball count right, since that was the goal.


What is required to get the ball count right?

I would think focus.

Focus means excluding extraneous detail.

Why is that a surprise? How can you focus and not focus at the same time?

What the fuck is Sluggo trying to lecture us about?

Do we focus or do we not focus? Which of these things?

[snowmman 3]

a finer debate to have, would be
"was the behavior and visual profile of the person in the gorilla suit closer to that of the humans in the picture, or closer to that of a gorilla"

There were a number of things that cued "human"

walking upright.
The suit was tight fitting
The suit was black.
also: The gorilla guy never touched the balls.

The head piece was the main delta to human. But the balls were typically bouncing lower, away from the heads (which is why you can't remembe how many women vs men?)

If a real gorilla had gone in the picture, I wonder if we would have noticed.

There's a lot going on in why this experiment is bullshit.

The main thing: the professor is trying to deceive his audience..he's using trickery to make a predetermined point..i.e. that if you focus on a set of predetermined things, you excluded things that you decided not to focus on, and if you're good, even if unexpected things arrive, you can ignore them, if your brain is fully occupied with what's necessary for the focused goal.

I read Sluggo's post and wonder instead: Why does Sluggo like this experiment?

[377 22]

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Why does Sluggo like this experiment?

Sure, it uses carefully calculated distractions and other magician tricks but it is amazing nevertheless.

People pay to be fooled. People pay to see huge things disappear and living humans seemingly cut in half. Sluggo got it all for free. Why shouldn't he like the experiment?

The biggest trick was to not label it a magic show. People werent primed to watch for tricks.

Universities run the best illusions in the business. They get parents to pay close to $200,000 and promise to turn their kids into productive members of society. They have run that con for centuries.

Where is SI in all this? If the frigging Maharishi can run a profitable university that promises to teach its students how to levivtate, Snowmman is seriously behind in the education money game.

Eyewitness testimony in high stress crime situations really is pretty unreliable as can be seen by comparing video records to witness statements before they see the videos.

It happens in convenience store robberies all the time. The witnesses even get the race wrong sometimes and see a white robber as black or latino (rarely the reverse). They often see guns where there were none.

There ARE exceptions though. I had one case where an eye witness got it ALL right, didnt miss a thing. He even noticed a small knuckle tatoo on ONE finger and that accurate observation clinched the conviction.
The witness was an engineer.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Will I didn't go back and check my posts, I did a quick mental check, and I'm thinking all my Larch Mtn posts were in sync with the one we were talking about.

Can someone point out the wrong posts that Sluggo is implying?
(I'm lazy)

Does anyone know?

[snowmman 3]

The best trick is the one I'm playing.

I post here on this thread, and you guys read it.

[snowmman 3]

Jerry is convinced I will die on the heli insert. Is he right or wrong?

The nice thing is that it's motivated me to start training.
I am seriously weak.
Running on my treadmill. (I have to lose 10 lbs and get my endurance up).
Doing pullups. I can only do sets of 4.

Is there some number on the treadmill or on the pullup bar, that will switch it from death, to life, on the insert?

Or does it not matter? No matter what number, I will die?

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I think the better analysis of that experiment is to see who got the ball count right, since that was the goal.


What is required to get the ball count right?

I would think focus.

Focus means excluding extraneous detail.

Why is that a surprise? How can you focus and not focus at the same time?

What the fuck is Sluggo trying to lecture us about?

Do we focus or do we not focus? Which of these things?

Snow... in one argumentative mood?!

Surely the point was obvious? to me anyway - that people would focus on what it was important for them to focus on at the time, and that could easily mean missing other stuff, even if it should have been 'obvious'. in other words, your 'extraneous detail' might very well have been -- what cooper looked like and perhaps more importantly exactly what he carried on to the plane.

You didn't need photo ID in those days to travel. The ticket clerk would have been more interested in checking if Cooper's - probably handwritten - ticket was correct. All the stuff was more labour intensive in those days - no tap tap tap computer printout barcode swipe all done. He would have been concentraing on his ticketing duties. Not checking his face or clothing. Cooper could have been wearing make-up or a wig and he may not have noticed. Similarly the other eyewitnesses on the plane. Someone a while ago already showed how some eyewitness testimony in the case changed over the years to start including stuff that had been publicised.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I guess it bugs me when there's an implication that "focus" is a bad thing.

You guys bring it up with respect to accidents where someone focuses on something to the extent he loses altitude awareness.

Or focuses so much on finding the rip handle, that he can't realize he's pulling the wrong thing.

Focus is good. Focus is the goal.

What you want is laser focus, but you want to increase the capacity of your brain to focus at the same level on more, or rapidly switch focus.

So you have to decide the full set of things to focus on, and what set of things to ignore. And what set of things to react to.

If I'm on the jumpship, and you're telling me to focus on other people puking and drinking red bulls, well of course I'll be nervous.

I won't be nervous, because I know most of the skydivers around me can be safely ignored. (although I have to make sure they don't create a hazard for me) Let them eat cake and puke.

From what I can tell so far, the capacity problem (how many things to focus on) is relatively boundable for entry level jumping. Partly because there's only so many actions and decisions you can make.

Focusing on whether the pilot is drunk or not, is not something to worry about, for instance. (edit) for an entry level jumper on a jumpship with a load of other jumpers.

I can sit next to someone ranting about how skydiving is intense, and ignore him.

(edit) And when that happens, I won't know the color of his eyes. And that's a good thing.

(edit) I still want to know if anyone got the number of ball transfers correct. I'd like to understand how his mind works and how he did it. That's the useful experiment.

And whether he could remember shoes if asked. Or glasses. Or what is the maximal number of different things he could remember, or react to.

If you said "also count the gorillas" could he get that right if a bunch of gorillas ran thru the balls?

(edit) Could he get the ball count right even if a bomb went off in the video? What about a naked woman?

What would it take to make him get the ball count wrong?

(edit) Another example: Think back to your jumps. If you wear socks: During the canopy ride, is the top of the left sock higher or lower on your leg usually (compared to the right sock)? Are they equal? within what magnitude?

[377 22]

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Is there some number on the treadmill or on the pullup bar, that will switch it from death, to life, on the insert?

How many pullups could Duane do in 1971? There is your answer. As a Ranger trainee I am sure the number was impressive.

Wear bright orange garb Snow. Those Washougal hunters are primed to see you as a deer or other game target.

How does Jerry avoid getting shot at by hunters? Maybe he shoots first and renders the point moot.

This friendly fire problem is one reason I prefer fishing to hunting. I'll never look like a fish to an eager fisherman.

I have my APRS tracking beacon gear all set up for you Snow. We can watch your position, speed, course, pulse rate and body temp on the Internet as you trudge through the Death woods.

Jerry has already found most of your cached food and warming exotherm chem packs. This may be tougher than you had planned. You may need to find a lonely widow in a warm cabin.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

* Yes, I realize that 11 people is not a big enough group to constitute a scientific study and draw absolute conclusions, that’s why I used “exercise” instead of “experiment.”


Sluggo

[377 22]

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(edit) Could he get the ball count right even if a bomb went off in the video? What about a naked woman?

The naked woman, especially if of reproductive age, would have been noticed by the men. It is part of evolutionary programming.

Even the PhD Nerd in Sluggo's group would have spotted her and perhaps even removed his pocket protector... kinda like the polar bear covering his black nose with snow.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

(edit) Could he get the ball count right even if a bomb went off in the video? What about a naked woman?

The naked woman, especially if of reproductive age, would have been noticed by the men. It is part of evolutionary programming.

Even the PhD Nerd in Sluggo's group would have spotted her and perhaps even removed his pocket protector... kinda like the polar bear covering his black nose with snow.

377

I noticed that Tiger Woods wife was a twin.
Swedish twins.
I hadn't noticed that before.

I have two dogs that look alike. I laugh when people can't tell them apart. They have so many differences.

Why not make a video about that? Why can't people tell my dogs apart.

Same thing when people walk up to a dog they don't know and say to the owner "Oh your dog, he is so cute" (when it's a she)
or vice versa.

Why can't people tell boy dogs and girl dogs apart, unless they see a penis?

Stupid people.

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

(edit) Could he get the ball count right even if a bomb went off in the video? What about a naked woman?

The naked woman, especially if of reproductive age, would have been noticed by the men. It is part of evolutionary programming.

Even the PhD Nerd in Sluggo's group would have spotted her and perhaps even removed his pocket protector... kinda like the polar bear covering his black nose with snow.

377

It all begins with mice experiments and food.
You can get a bunch of mice competing over
food and pass new food right over their heads
and they will keep on competing and ignore the
new food .... much like forums!

Snowman has now been filtered out. How refreshing!

[377 22]

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In other words, 'its
Duane or nothing, for me'. I am sure the promoters of Gossett have a similar stance and a similar outlook on evidence after so much time invested.

Jo is definitely Duane or nothing.

Cook isnt really Gossett or nothing.

In my communications with Cook he remained very open to the possibility that another person might be Cooper since he, UNLIKE JO, had no PROOF Gosset was Cooper.

Cook just thought that there was a very high probablility that Gossett was Cooper given all the circumstantial evidence pointing in that direction and the absence of any evidence that ruled him out.

He, at that time, had evidence that Gossett had Ft Lewis connections and could have landed there and easily blended in. That didn't prove anything but it gavce an interesting twist to Cooper's apparent plan to exit very shortly after takeoff.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

Is there some number on the treadmill or on the pullup bar, that will switch it from death, to life, on the insert?

How many pullups could Duane do in 1971? There is your answer. As a Ranger trainee I am sure the number was impressive.

Wear bright orange garb Snow. Those Washougal hunters are primed to see you as a deer or other game target.

How does Jerry avoid getting shot at by hunters? Maybe he shoots first and renders the point moot.

This friendly fire problem is one reason I prefer fishing to hunting. I'll never look like a fish to an eager fisherman.

I have my APRS tracking beacon gear all set up for you Snow. We can watch your position, speed, course, pulse rate and body temp on the Internet as you trudge through the Death woods.

Jerry has already found most of your cached food and warming exotherm chem packs. This may be tougher than you had planned. You may need to find a lonely widow in a warm cabin.

377

I think my first goal will be to run a 10k. I've not run a lot for probably 10 years. I'll set a 45 minute goal. That should be doable shortly. Being in shape makes the widow situation more likely to end in one's favor, also.