DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

I'm looking at those red lights Georger posted, and they seem like they'd be visible from directly above.

They aren't focused horizontally, like Farflung posted.

They seem omnidirectional.

Thoughts?

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All (especially any Moderators out there),


You guys remember this post by Jim_Hooper, posted February 4, 2008?

Quote

Ever been to a party crashed by people you wouldn’t entertain in your garden shed? You know the type. They walk through your house like they owned it, help themselves to what’s in the fridge, change the music to what they like, spill red wine and put out cigarettes on your carpets, treat your books and skydiving trophies like pieces of junk, leave wet rings on your lovingly-restored antique oak table, and miss the toilet bowl when they piss. And then, incredibly, are offended when you get irritated. Among that milieu is the sub-type who can talk for hours in a monotone about the many shades of metallic-flake paint, not noticing your eyes glazing over. When you move to a group of friends, he follows and butts in with the same topic, one so soporific that everyone mumbles politely and wanders off. When you survey the damage the next morning, you wish you hadn’t been quite so polite. Better to have grabbed ‘em by the scuff of the neck and run ‘em out of your house and off your property.

(There are some who may already have a sneaking suspicion where I’m heading with this.)

Dropzone.com is a clever idea, an enticing venue for skydivers to air all sorts of topics. But when non-skydivers arrogantly treat it as their own, not least because those it was designed for are too polite to tell ‘em to hit the road, then a problem is generated, one that becomes increasingly divisive. Especially so when it’s clear that their ‘contributions’ (inevitably larded with poor grammar, worse syntax, and flabby thinking) are sad efforts to draw attention to themselves in the company of people who, unlike themselves, actually understand the mechanics of aviation, parachute equipment, freefall, and meteorology. It’s those who do grasp those subjects, through the expenditure of time, passion, money and effort, that have earned (yes, earned is the right word) the right to contribute.

Going back to the beginning, you might reasonably ask if I socialize with non-skydivers? You bet I do. But they are articulate, engaging and fascinating people who have taken risks and pushed the envelope in their own fields of endeavor, certainly not wannabes who live dull troglodyte lives surrounded by fantasies they haven’t the moral, philosophical or physical courage to ever realize.

Like our much-burdened moderator, I wish the good ones fair winds in their quest.

And with that, I think I’ve said enough on the subject.

Hoop

I hated Hooper for posting that. I think everyone should be allowed to post what they feel, but I thought this particular post was unkind (I prefer kindness to unkindness). Before I registered on DZ.com, I read the rules and, while it was obviously intended to be a skydiver board, it was open to all who wished to post on “relevant” topics. Unfortunately, discussions about DB Cooper are relevant to skydiving whether justified or not. Therefore, there was no reason I could not post to it. If Hooper is a skydiver isolationist and a whuffo exclusionist, so be it, after all, this IS a skydiver board.

But now, today, I think my feelings about Hooper have come back on me. Maybe he was right after all.

This thread, one that I suppose has the highest percentage of whuffo posters than any other on DZ.com, has degenerated into a wild-west flame fest. There is no obvious presence of a moderator(s), there is a poster (troll) who, when presented with a serious (and sometimes thoughtful) post, feels the need to post six to ten consecutive posts of rambling nonsense. There is a poster, who although is intellectually sound, and often has thoughtful analysis, allows the troll (and others) to “pull his strings” and gets so frustrated that his replies degenerate into name-calling and flames. Then, there’s the Florida widow, who says the same three or four statements over and over ad infinitum, as if that by saying it enough times those who rejected her “leaps of logic” will somehow see that she is (was) right all along. (Yes Jo, keep doing what you are doing and you’ll keep getting what you are getting.) Then there is a group I call the “visiting populous” who drop in occasionally to either stir the pot or attempt to steady the ship.

Now I want to be very clear here. I have no association with this forum, fiduciary, social, or familial. I, as a whuffo, am a guest. Not an invited guest, but an allowed guest (yes, there is a big difference in my mind). The administration and management of DZ.com have their own reason for the decisions they make. I’m sure the number of post here (this thread) has a great deal to do with sponsor associations and obligations. They haven’t consulted me (as if!...) and I don’t think it is very likely that they ever will.

There is some really interesting research going on in NORJAK at this point in time. There are three (or four) books being written and the “Science Team” (Tom Kaye and company) continue to slog through the evidence at the extremely slow pace that “real science” demands.

When I first came here, the thread was “value added” for me. I met some great folks (and personalities). This thread, and the interest it held for many, prompted me to start my web site. But, over time, it has really gone downhill. So, once again, this thread has lost its usefulness to me, and I certainly don’t seem to be adding any value to it. Therefore, once again, I am going to take a hiatus from posting.

If anyone has any serious and/or meaningful information, or wish to ask my assistance on any projects, you know how to contact me. I encourage you to do so. I will continue to scan the pages of this thread, when time allows, and I will contact individuals through other resources if the situation demands it.

Everyone have a great 2010, I honestly feel some progress will be made this year.


Sluggo


PS: Oh yeah! Don't feed the troll, it just encourages him!

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Why in the WORLD would Georger, who contends to be a man of wealth and education and naysayer regarding Weber - make a statement that substanciates what I have been saying?

Georger was so CAUGHT OFF GUARD by the Gorilla he lost his focus on his intense battle to discredit Jo - resulting in a post that only confirms exactly what I (she) tried to state in her own elementary way - with the words she can sometimes NOT find.

Oh, stop talking crap Jo. Firstly: Are you so far gone that you cannot actually believe that the quality of being 'objective' means all angles are considered, and people are not going to discount something that may in some vague way tally with something you once said (or hinted at, or claimed to have proof that *poof*ed, or whatever)

Secondly: What Georger said was not at all out of line with what has been discussed before. Perhaps you were so focussed on Duane that you ignored a whole bunch of other posts. Your logic is staggering. By extension you might say... if we contend (as we have) Cooper wiped his fingerprints, it must be Duane! It substantiates what you said! (actually you said that a lot more recently., but it's already been pointed out a few times that your duane story seems to twist and shimmer to fit other speculations)

Thirdly: it never ceases to amaze me how egotistical you must be to think that Georger spends all this time - and he HAS posted a lot of useful, substantive and researched stuff as well - just to 'discredit' you.
And sorry to say but if discrediting you was anyone's aim, no-one has managed to do it nearly as well as you have done yourself.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

by the way, on the subject of gorillas, have any of you heard about our (sadly now deceased) famous crime-fighting gorilla, Max?
I bet if he had been around Cooper wouldn't have got away.

http://home.intekom.com/animals/services/news/wildlife/heromax.html

(Edit: Max survived the operation fine, died a few years later of natural causes)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

It's an amazing thing when one realizes one can never be banned.

There's a feeling of omnipotence.

Almost like doing something humans shouldn't be able to do, like fly.

I can post right here, right after this period, anything I want.
Or nothing.

Now back to Gorillas.

Why isn't Sluggo talking about Gorillas?
Why is there a Larch Mountain coverup, and 377 has been implicated?

Here's my problem with people bragging about "training".

Training doesn't teach you the "be here now" of reality.

There is a Gorilla in the room right now.
Be Here Now.
What is the right response?

The right response is to start banning people until the Gorilla is dead.

Let it begin. The Larch Mountain Massacre.

It won't stop until more progress is made. I want a body count. We will not make progress unless we have a body count.

I am glad so much progress has been made. The tower will only reach completion when the last piece Chromated Cooper Arsenate (CCA) pressure-treated larch, with 0.40 pounds of preservative per cubic foot of wood, is bolted into place, the flag of the great nation of Lithuania flying from the top, with a puking base jumper balanced nervously atop, about to mutter those immortal words...."See ya!"

I would remind the "pretenders" at the "Science Team" that the CSG is the only civilian group approved by the FBI and CIA (see youtube) and I control it. I would hope the "Science Team" would not continue to try to deceive the paying public in this regard.

(edit) re: the apparent 3 or 4 books being written. My book, will be targetting coffee tables, and approximately 700 pages. I hope that it will be warmly received.

(edit) Farflung: a thoughtful examination of the question "Will larch replace pressure treated wood?" is here:
http://www.joneakes.com/cgi-bin/getdetailscals.cgi?id=1702

[georger 244]

Quote

Jo,

I just posted what you put in quotation marks a few hours ago. I didnt cut and paste it from anything prior.

Your excuses for not providing proof make no sense to me.

We are not in a courtroom. This is a skydiving forum. This is the Internet. People claim all sorts of things here and without credible evidence, the claims are rightfully regarded as BS.

Even if we were in a courtoom, evidence isn't presented in final argument. It is presented during the trial, where jurors can judge its credibility and witnesses like you can be cross examined. If you were a witness trying to prove Duane was Cooper you'd be shredded even by a rookie. You either have the evidence or you don't. You don't.

You have failed to present ANY evidence that Duane was Cooper. You have only made unsubstantiated claims and huge leaps of logic that are nearly incomprehensible to clear thinking people.

You think the FBI's failure to prove Duane wasnt Cooper proves something. It proves NOTHING regarding Duane. ZERO.

You think the fact that the FBI lied to you about Duane proves that they know Duane was Cooper or connected to Cooper. IT DOES NOT

You think the FBI knows who Cooper was. OK PROVE IT.

You think the FBI is engaged in a coverup of Cooper's identity. OK, PROVE IT.

You think Duane's unexplained knowledge of the area in which Cooper was thought to have jumped proves he was Cooper or connected to Norjack. IT DOES NOT PROVE EITHER.

You claimed Duane received Ranger training and parachute training. OK, PROVE IT. I'd bet you huge odds that neither is true, but you'd never admit you lost the bet.

The reason you can't present evidence is that you do not possess it. It's just like a con, except that you are not asking for money, just attention and notoriety.

It's OK Jo, I am at peace with your obsession. I truly am. You aren't evil, just obsessed. I'd love to find out that Duane was actually Cooper, but the evidence just isn't there. You can't accept the truth so you expend great effort researching the most improbable scenarios.

I really hope you arent being conned by greedy "investigators" who sense a good mark in an elderly person with some money and an obsession.

You had Sluggo in your corner, a very smart guy, an intense interest in Norjack, a heart of gold, and a man of honor. You cast him aside and have allied yourself with "my guys" whoever they are.

You cry about the abuse you get but you could stop it in a second by merely posting the probative evidence you claim to have.

If you BS here Jo, and unsubstantiated extravagant claims are regarded as BS, then you will get shredded, ridiculed and insulted. This is a skydiving forum. That' what skydivers do on their home turf.

Why havent you gone on Coast to Coast AM? You'd find a receptive audience and would have a much higher probablility of finding people willing to help you than you do here.

Your story has a lot of initial appeal to the Cooper newbies. Use that to your advantage. It is useless here, we are all jaded.

Happy New Year Jo. I hope 2010 brings you peace.

377

This post reminds me of something my grandfather
said: "I wish it were not so, but it is so, some things
are what they are, but the only saving grace is that
it wont matter in the greater scheme of things!"

My grandfather had just had to shoot his favorite
horse who had broken its leg 10 days earlier.

This post should framed and hung in the
Chamberlain Wing of the Hall of Horrors.

[georger 244]

There is some really interesting research going on in NORJAK at this point in time. There are three (or four) books being written and the “Science Team” (Tom Kaye and company) continue to slog through the evidence at the extremely slow pace that “real science” demands.

[snowmman 3]

science is good.
eventually creates web pages we can read and learn from.

I'm not sure why this forum would be impeding science.

Is this forum part of the science?

Can this forum actually find new stuff relating to DB Cooper and Flight 305?

How does that work?

There's an implication of failure here.
I don't see the failure.

Should we have done more science? What would that look like?
test tubes?
reading books?

measuring distances between Larch Mountains?

how have we failed the scientists?

I declare "Success!"
Prove me wrong.
Do it for Charlie.

(edit) re: "slow pace of science"
I think only slow scientists would say that.
Fast scientists would say "Science is more fun, and faster paced than the slow scientists cause it to be"

Here's to fast science! Let the slow people be run over!

[377 22]

Quote

So, once again, this thread has lost its usefulness to me, and I certainly don’t seem to be adding any value to it. Therefore, once again, I am going to take a hiatus from posting.

Slugoo Sluggo Sluggo,

Don't turn off the radio just because there is static. Orange (I think) pointed out that when signals occasionally come through, they trounce the noise. When they come, they are heard, debated and discussed rationally.

Learn to live with the noise. Adapt. You can buy a really nice house cheap if it's right next to a chaotic freeway or busy rail line. If you can learn to live with noise, more opportunties are open to you.

You are a pilot. Those GA single engine planes are a hell hole of noise and vibration. Still, they occasioanlly let you experience unique and beautiful things so you tolerate hours of numbing acoustic toture.

I really like having you as an active person on the forum. We lose something if you revert to lurker or SWL status. Transmit. I like hearing your signal.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

People like to imply they are "more rational" or "more something" than someone else.

It always puzzles me that their actions belie their claim.

Truly if one was "more", then the mosquito buzzing in the air wouldn't matter.

If one is truly a monk with mastery of one's mind, does it matter if the forest has trees, larch or otherwise?

Is there no such thing as a test? Tests are not allowed?

It would be better to say "I just prefer not" if that is the right answer.

[377 22]

Quote

Can this forum actually find new stuff relating to DB Cooper and Flight 305?

Well, maybe not the forum Snow, but YOU found something while participating in the forum that bears further scrutiny.

Why dont you post the particulars about your intriguing suspect including the words he wrote in a book about freezing feet while walking along the Columbia River?

I don't think the FBI ever had this guy in their sights and he is an AMAZING match on a number of fronts including:

Former Boeing employee in tech documentation

Skydiver with night jump experience

Viet Nam experience including civilian jumping and witnesssing atrocities by the US military

USMC combat vet

OUS resident at time of Norjack residing in VERY obscure place

Resembles the FBI drawing

Has a HUGE grudge

USFS Smoke Jumper who worked in the Northwest.

Need I go on?

Even if he isnt Cooper just finding him teaches us a lot about investigation techniques and how people (like me and the FBI) miss things. How did you do it? How did I miss this guy while doing similar searches?

This guy is old. He probably isnt Cooper but he might be. Even if he isn't I'll bet he knows what was known among jumpers and others in SE Asia about those Air America 727 jumps.

Let's find Bruce and get him to interview this guy while he is still living.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377 asked "How did you do it? How did I miss this guy while doing similar searches? "

I sleep with many women who engage in deviant sex practices with me.

Why? How does everyone else do it?

[377 22]

Where can I buy some Larchwood lumber?

I am going to build a cabin in the woods.

If I build it, the widows will come.

I need to think more like Snowmman.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

from a pissed-off commercial pilot
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/01/05/danyluk.pilot.complaint/index.html

Change happens, when normal folk, who believed in the system and were perfectly agreeable to "go along with the program" because they thought that was the way to help....realize that the program is bullshit, and that "going along" is actually a fail plan.

(edit) he mentions "testing"
"I'm left with the sickening sense that after 9/11, the government spent horrific amounts of money to create the "mother of all" pre-mishap plans, but never effectively tested it."

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

Can this forum actually find new stuff relating to DB Cooper and Flight 305?

Well, maybe not the forum Snow, but YOU found something while participating in the forum that bears further scrutiny.

Why dont you post the particulars about your intriguing suspect including the words he wrote in a book about freezing feet while walking along the Columbia River?

I don't think the FBI ever had this guy in their sights and he is an AMAZING match on a number of fronts including:

Former Boeing employee in tech documentation

Skydiver with night jump experience

Viet Nam experience including civilian jumping and witnesssing atrocities by the US military

USMC combat vet

OUS resident at time of Norjack residing in VERY obscure place

Resembles the FBI drawing

Has a HUGE grudge

USFS Smoke Jumper who worked in the Northwest.

Need I go on?

Even if he isnt Cooper just finding him teaches us a lot about investigation techniques and how people (like me and the FBI) miss things. How did you do it? How did I miss this guy while doing similar searches?

This guy is old. He probably isnt Cooper but he might be. Even if he isn't I'll bet he knows what was known among jumpers and others in SE Asia about those Air America 727 jumps.

Let's find Bruce and get him to interview this guy while he is still living.

377

+1
(I added the bolds except for the first)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

as I noted, I think all the data points to Cooper landing in the Columbia.

On the other hand, part of this thread, is just finding interesting history.

We've continually discovered that history is not as we thought it was (at least I did).

I've also realized, that most skydivers don't have a full view of skydiving history. (at least those that have showed up on this thread).

I've also realized, that the FBI, represented by what I've read in the newspaper accounts, and Ckret, and secondhand stuff from guys like Jerry Thomas and interviews of Himmelsbach, seems very lame to me. Maybe even still! (note my comments about Zazi).

In any case, here's an intriguing thing. Last Nov, when I still thought Ckret actually was serious about this investigation, I passed this guy's name, thru 377, to Ckret. Never heard anything.

But weirdly, shortly after that, the guy made a posting saying "the fbi thought I was D.B. Cooper" (edit) the guy has written a lot, and this was the first and only reference ever, to DBC..which added to my intrigue.

So I was always intrigued...Did Ckret contact him? I dunno? (edit) If Ckret did contact him, then it meant Ckret was lying to us about there being no investigation. I never understand WTF Ckret was doing anyhow. It's like he's either incredibly simple-minded, or just a bad liar.
Or was he responding to his view of an attempted contact (thru email) by 377?

Intriguing. You don't normally find people with an appropriate C.V., that say "the fbi thought I was D.B. Cooper".

As 377 notes, he would know a LOT more about the history and times of 1971 than any of us.

But I suspect he wouldn't be interested in talking to a bunch of nuts like us.

It would take a master like Bruce to actually pull off a conversation with this guy. Neither 377 nor I would be up to the task.

The thing is: real people in the real world have complicated lives. They don't deserve to be exposed to nutcases like Jo and Jerry and Sluggo, just because they have interesting lives.

The whole thing reminded me of how complicated the world is.

It also provided an example, of how our thinking about what's unique and what's not, (Cooper theories) is just wrong. And no matter how much people post, it's all about their biases. Not any evidence.

Because there is no evidence, and never will be, no matter how much Sluggo likes to pretend the Nuclear Regulatory Agency has anything to do with science.

But yeah, if we can dredge Bruce up, get his computer working intermittently again, tape up the light over his desk with one leg propped up with a telephone book, it would be cool to see if he could pull off a conversation.

[snowmman 3]

Here's just one thing, that touchs on my comments about people with interesting lives.

After [what I believe was] his first marriage ended in divorce, and his life was bottoming out, and he was struggling to get a job, I think (can't prove it, but indirectly suggested) that he got a job working as the ride operator for the Bubbleator at the 1962 Seattle World's Fair.

Now you can laugh at me, and Sluggo can go on about Larch Mtn and fresh cemetaries for burying money.

But that really intrigued me. As an example of focus, I dug up the actual music they played while people were on the Bubbleator and listened to it, including the narrator.

I tried to imagine what it would be like, being the guy operating the ride, listening to that narrator and music, day after day, knowing your life was at a bottom.

Then I went back and had sex with nuns.

(edit) In terms of "biases"...there are things 377 and Orange1 would respond to, and things I would respond to. It's interesting to see that happen (like I see what things 377 mentions as "bullets").

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I've also realized, that most skydivers don't have a full view of skydiving history. (at least those that have showed up on this thread).

WRONG... I started jumping in 1972.. and have actually jumped the same kinds of parachutes that were used.. and have done so at night.MANY times.. and 2 intentional tree jumps... a hell of a lot of water jumps.. and in migh winds more times than I care to remember.

That is why I get so tired of misconceptions by all the people here who have no clue about skydiving in general... and jumping old school rounds in particular. I have hundreds of jumps on them.. with no injuries greater than some bruises. Also unlike most newer jumpers I actually have a few round jumps in this century because I like going old school and jumping the old equipment.

Dont let your ego overload your supposed "knowledge"

[377 22]

Quote

After [what I believe was] his first marriage ended in divorce, and his life was bottoming out, and he was struggling to get a job, I think (can't prove it, but indirectly suggested) that he got a job working as the ride operator for the Bubbleator at the 1962 Seattle World's Fair.

But that really intrigued me. As an example of focus, I dug up the actual music they played while people were on the Bubbleator and listened to it, including the narrator.

I tried to imagine what it would be like, being the guy operating the ride, listening to that narrator and music, day after day, knowing your life was at a bottom

I too have listened to the Bubbleator music.

I now have bizzarre thoughts about aerial crimes.

Was it the forum or the music?

Tonight I am going to play it backwards and see if it says anything about Duane.

Snow and I see different bullets, for sure.

As for the Nuns, leave em alone Snow. They went to convents to avoid guys like you. Lead them not into temptation.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[airtwardo 7]

Hey Sluggo...understandable frustration, however many if not most of us can separate the chicken shit from the bubblegum.

Take a breather but please understand your input is both interesting & valuable.

See ya in the Funny Papers!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[snowmman 3]

amazon: 'Dont let your ego overload your supposed "knowledge"'

I agree. I don't know anything.

There was some comments about what's a serious or good post, and what's not.

If I post what's in my head, and the feedback is: "not a good post"...well, no more of that!

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Can this forum actually find new stuff relating to DB Cooper and Flight 305?

Well, maybe not the forum Snow, but YOU found something while participating in the forum that bears further scrutiny.

Why dont you post the particulars about your intriguing suspect including the words he wrote in a book about freezing feet while walking along the Columbia River?

I don't think the FBI ever had this guy in their sights and he is an AMAZING match on a number of fronts including:

Former Boeing employee in tech documentation

Skydiver with night jump experience

Viet Nam experience including civilian jumping and witnesssing atrocities by the US military

USMC combat vet

OUS resident at time of Norjack residing in VERY obscure place

Resembles the FBI drawing

Has a HUGE grudge

USFS Smoke Jumper who worked in the Northwest.

Need I go on?

Even if he isnt Cooper just finding him teaches us a lot about investigation techniques and how people (like me and the FBI) miss things. How did you do it? How did I miss this guy while doing similar searches?

This guy is old. He probably isnt Cooper but he might be. Even if he isn't I'll bet he knows what was known among jumpers and others in SE Asia about those Air America 727 jumps.

Let's find Bruce and get him to interview this guy while he is still living.

377

+1
(I added the bolds except for the first)

Its funny how all of this would happen behind the scenes of the forum, but Snow wont bring the
candidate (or even a piece of the candidate) here
for scrutiny.

Why should anyone take Orange's word for her
certifications of Snowmman's candidate, above?

You say he/it resembles Cooper? Let's see it!

What a bunch of egotistical internet bs, which I
guess is exactly what it is supposed to be!

Even Jerry on his wildest day wouldnt stoop to this!

Orange, 377, Snowblower = A Team Bullshit.

[snowmman 3]

I masturbate whenever Georger posts.

[377 22]

If the post is about Duane being Cooper, it's a good post.

Anything else is part of the coverup, which makes it a bad post.

Any further questions?

Coast to Coast AM tells me that aliens live among us. A guy with an Ivy League PhD says it's true and that the government is covering it up.

Maybe that is the blockbuster evidence Jo keeps hinting about. It's much bigger than just Duane now.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I went out and tried more pullups last night. Couldn't do any. Need a rest day.
Running's okay though, although I'm just on the treadmill.

I have a 2" diameter stainless steel pipe that has like a 1/4" wall or more. 10' long.
That's my barbell for now. Really freaking heavy.

(edit) Orange1: I did read your gorilla news story. Weird. Nice that so many vets stepped in to help the gorilla afterwards.