DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

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Are you saying you won't tell a white lie to protect?
If your mother said she thought she look old - would you actually tell her she looked old.

If you had information regarding a friend or someone you like that could harm them if you repeated - Would you repeat it?

I think that you could not tell a WHITE lie to protect STINKS.
What kind of friend or mother are you?

A lot of people ask me if Jo Weber is insane.
I just keep on walking.

[snowmman 3]

I was wondering if Dorwin's team found lots of bits of paper, but maybe further testing revealed they weren't money fragments?

But Dorwin would have learned about this, since he was responsible for Norjak in Portland. (which apparently kept its' own records while he was there in the '80s)

I'm just thinking, there can't be any way Dorwin can be wrong about finding money fragments, can there?

[georger 244]

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Georger, Snow, Sluggo, Guru... you guys up for a new band? CQ dead guys CQ CQ.

377

My fascination is this: CQ DX ET

Coming sooner than you think, to a theatre near you:

http://cargo.ucsc.edu/coffee/2010/01/13/spatially-resolved-spectroscopy-of-the-exoplanet-hr-8799-c/

http://www.eso.org/public/news/eso1002/

. .

[nigel99 473]

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Are you saying you won't tell a white lie to protect?
If your mother said she thought she look old - would you actually tell her she looked old.

If you had information regarding a friend or someone you like that could harm them if you repeated - Would you repeat it?

I think that you could not tell a WHITE lie to protect STINKS.
What kind of friend or mother are you?

A lot of people ask me if Jo Weber is insane.
I just keep on walking.

yip - her post was in very bad taste

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[skyjack71 0]

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Are you saying you won't tell a white lie to protect?
If your mother said she thought she look old - would you actually tell her she looked old.

If you had information regarding a friend or someone you like that could harm them if you repeated - Would you repeat it?

I think that you could not tell a WHITE lie to protect STINKS.
What kind of friend or mother are you?

A lot of people ask me if Jo Weber is insane.
I just keep on walking.

===================


If my life was NOT about truth and doing the right thing - then I could and would have WALKED away in 2000 after being confronted by an FBI agent who blatantly lied to what he thought was a clueless bimbo married to a career criminal. Fortunately and perhaps unfortunately for me - I am not.

What is unfortunate is that too many people in this world prefer to turn their heads and walk away from a difficult situation, allowing the bureaucracy of this government run us over. I chose to take a stand for the TRUTH and I will do so until the day I die.

Right a Wrong and Out a lie.

No I am NOT proud I was married to a career criminal, but I am proud of how he lived his last yrs on this earth and I am proud of the man he became.
I wish he had taken the past to the grave with him, but he didn't and so here I am.

I feel hurt and pain for his victims through out his life, but in the research it is evident that the system did not work for him in those early yrs...and the system "created" Cooper. He later in life accepted his role in what he was and who he was, but he held a grudge against the harshness of the justice given a very young man...and forever changed his life (a stigma he could not over come).

I just deleted the last paragraph because it gave too many details regarding the incident I am referring to. IT is time for the TRUTH - but not here and not at this time. It is time for all to stand accounted for their actions - even in death.

No one ever understood WHY he chose Portland to Seattle - it was very appropriate when you learn the truth about Cooper.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

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I was wondering if Dorwin's team found lots of bits of paper, but maybe further testing revealed they weren't money fragments?

But Dorwin would have learned about this, since he was responsible for Norjak in Portland. (which apparently kept its' own records while he was there in the '80s)

I'm just thinking, there can't be any way Dorwin can be wrong about finding money fragments, can there?

If women in church groups were talking about more
money and pieces of more money being found at the bar, then there must be something to it!
Family mentioned a large snow storm during the
dig -

The dig maybe fell into a beaurocratic vacuum.
When things like that happen those doing the work
usually just move on, and forget they were ever there? Nobody likes working for .... a missing boss!

[snowmman 3]

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The dig maybe fell into a beaurocratic vacuum.
When things like that happen those doing the work
usually just move on, and forget they were ever there? Nobody likes working for .... a missing boss!

Yeah, the transition from the Portland guys to the Seattle guys seems key. The Seattle guys only had one day and found nothing.

So they go back to Seattle with a "found nothing" story.

I think the transition, plus the early ending due to snow, helped mess things up.

This Portland/Seattle split, plus the Himmelsbach era ending in Portland and a new guy starting, almost is a perfect storm for information being lost.

[snowmman 3]

I was just reading the script for "Unforgiven"...Clint Eastwood.
http://www.weeklyscript.com/Unforgiven.txt
great movie, because nothing's clear, and myths get exposed as ..myths.

I was thinking how this thread started out, where everyone wanted to believe they could see the truth that others were too blind to see.
Then law enforcement gets involved, and people want to believe that finally there is rock solid truth.

But it all kind of ends, with no truth in sight, and everything fuzzy.

And like the great shootout in the end, where the eastern writer wants Munny to be acting like the great mythological gunslingers he's written about, but Munny isn't...

This 10 minute clip starts with Munny being told they killed his friend Ned and propped his body up in front of Greely's with a sign, when Ned hadn't shot anyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SO5VO2ixWY

You can start at 2:12 if you want to skip ahead.

"Who's the fella owns this shithole?"

I like that the writer is there...I picture Bruce.
The scene is filmed a little differently than the script. The script is a little better.

[BruceSmith 3]

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That old post of Ckret's was cute. I actually enjoyed his presence here even though he was at times evasive. What a shame he was a victim of an obsessive grudge. The guy did have a good sense of humor.

I feel refreshed by the latest tone in the forum. We are a pack of Jackyls and Bruce just tossed us a ton of meat. We are feasting on it and, for moment at least, have stopped snapping at each other.

It is curious that there is so little documentation of the money shards. I do believe they were there. Lots of stories corellate. Could there be , as G suggests, lost or misplaced FBI files?

If the money container separated from Cooper during his fall it could end up in the river and Cooper on land. That's all I am saying in distinguishing Jerry's quest from Jo's. A body or rig could be in the woods. I don't give comparable odds on Duane being Cooper or even having ever parachuted.

Jerry at least gets sone vigorous exercise and an opportunity to commune with nature. Maybe more if he runs into some of those Washougal cabin widows.

Jo gets something different than Jerry does. It's less tangible but no less satisfying. Jerry slogs through inhospitable terrain and vegetation. Jo slogs through derisive doubters.

Petey sure makes a perfect Cooper even though he may not be Cooper. It was funny. Orange and I were constructing an ideal Cooper: 727 tech knowledge, smoke jumper, skydiver with night jumps, OUS resident in 71, SE Asia connection... And Snow finds a perfect match.

377

I asked Petey to describe to me what he thought would be the ideal Cooper. He has yet to get back to me...........

[skyjack71 0]

Post by Georger

"By the way Georger I have only told a couple of very little WHITE lies"

Post by Orange

thin edge of the wedge, grey area, etc etc. lies are lies. you didn't need to tell any lies to protect anyone Jo; after all there were plenty of times you simply claimed not to release info to protect people. i am afraid i am with georger on this one. your story had no credibility anyway; admission of lies just understates this.

------------------------------------
-------------------------------

Orange - you are incredulous.
Are you saying you won't tell a white lie to protect?
If your mother said she thought she look old - would you actually tell her she looked old.

If you had information regarding a friend or someone you like that could harm them if you repeated - Would you repeat it?

ARE YOU saying YOU would NOT tell a WHITE lie to protect someone you know or to protect them? Yuck that STINKS!

What kind of friend or mother are you?

9999999999999999
6666666666666666
999999999999999999
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Jo will leave you with these word for the night:

It was made to appear I was the one being rude - if I was being rude in pointing out what a white lie is then I am indeed sorry...

If not for little white lies - this would be a CRUEL CRUEL world. They are the only LIES I CHOOSE to make.

Hope all of you have enjoyed the thread and that you had fun poking around at Cooper. There is a lot of history here if you are able to separate the truth from the fiction. It has amazed me how many times Georger and Snow and others have changed opposing sides and ideas.

It is even more interesting reading the changing of the guard - and how many times some of you ride a wave only to find yourself contradicting yourself. Now I am the one with a smile on my face.

Here's hoping all of you have a good life and that you have learned something...about Cooper and yourself.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[1969912 0]

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I just deleted the last paragraph because it gave too many details regarding the incident I am referring to. IT is time for the TRUTH - but not here and not at this time. It is time for all to stand accounted for their actions - even in death.

No one ever understood WHY he chose Portland to Seattle - it was very appropriate when you learn the truth about Cooper.

I'm one of just a few "regulars" left on this thread that treats you in a respectful and civil manner. I'm probably the only one who hasn't openly discounted the possibility that Duane may have been Cooper. I'm still willing to help you in any way I can (as are, believe it or not, many other posters here), but your teases and "..I just deleted...because....too many details..." posts are getting very old.












Edited to remove top secret stuff....

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[BruceSmith 3]

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The dig maybe fell into a beaurocratic vacuum.
When things like that happen those doing the work
usually just move on, and forget they were ever there? Nobody likes working for .... a missing boss!

Yeah, the transition from the Portland guys to the Seattle guys seems key. The Seattle guys only had one day and found nothing.

So they go back to Seattle with a "found nothing" story.

I think the transition, plus the early ending due to snow, helped mess things up.

This Portland/Seattle split, plus the Himmelsbach era ending in Portland and a new guy starting, almost is a perfect storm for information being lost.

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The Portland-Seattle split is a very important dynamic in the Cooper case, in my view. Russ Calame, the SAC Salt Lake City who collared McCoy, told me that his dealing were with Seattle - not Portland - and he talked with Seattle "four, five times a day" about the linkage between Cooper and McCoy. Russ told me that the Seattle crew had strong feelings that McCoy was Cooper, and that they felt Russ and his boys were on the right track.

Further, Russ told me that Himmelsback entered the picture only in 1976 when he make the grand jury appearance for the John Doe warrant, which saved the case from expiring under statute of limitations regs. Up until then, Portland was not a major player in the Cooper investigation, and Russ inferred that it never was - it only came to a degree of prominence with the grand jury thing and then the money find.

When I said to Russ that it seems as though the Seattle office, and by extrapolation the whole Bureau, was content to let Portland become the public face of the Cooper investigation and its agents the main storytellers of the Cooper story, ala Himms, he gave no direct reply.

However, his silence suggested to me that I had stumbled upon an important discovery.

Oddly, the best view into the Seattle investigation of Cooper is from Calame. There are no documents or pieces of literature that I can find that talk about the activities of Seattle agents, or in particular SAC Seattle Charlie Farrell.

Further, Calame retired shortly after McCoy was convicted and the new SAC Salt Lake turned out to be a reportedly worthless hack who let the Cooper-McCoy investigation fade out.

If Seattle (or DC and J Edgar) wanted to keep their Cooper investigation secret, shutting down SLC certainly assisted that effort. Then, letting Himms and Portland take center stage helped maintain the diversion of attention, which has continued to this day, except for the actions of Larry

[snowmman 3]

Jo said "Here's hoping all of you have a good life and that you have learned something...about Cooper and yourself."

The only thing I've learned is how men (especially older men) are suckers for an older woman with a story that they want to believe.

All the woman has to do, is tell it with a straight face.

[snowmman 3]

bruce said "Then, letting Himms and Portland take center stage helped maintain the diversion of attention, which has continued to this day, except for the actions of Larry "

But Dorwin said some good work was done on the Cooper case. I'm assuming he means the Portland guys did some good work?

So there was stuff going on in Portland, post 1980?

[377 22]

I keep hoping for a happy ending: Petey actually was Cooper but lost the money shortly after exit when the briefcase handle snapped off. The FBI ruled him out based only on DNA, but their airplane sample wasn't Coopers DNA. Petey landed near the river broke and cold. He walked out and blended back in.

I like that a lot better than Cooper going into the river and dieing.

Come on Jo. Stop your teasing. Put Duane in a chute. You can't do it because he never jumped. Prove me wrong.
Duane was a Whuffo til the day he died.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I think we can rule out petey.
Georger will point out that he's not a good match for the sketch. Mouth is too big for one.

This picture is a blowup (rotated vertically since his head was tilted) of a high school yearbook picture from Clark Air Base where he was teaching in 1966 before he went to vietnam.

At the very least, it's interesting because it gives a perspective on what some people of the right age, and even background, looked like back then.

We're so used to seeing Duane Weber and Gosset, etc, that it's easy to forget what other interesting people might have looked like. This is 5 years before '71. Also before vietnam experience.

I mostly want to brag about my search skills, since georger has minimum wages folk that run circles around me. (edit) When the jobs run out, I'll be competing with them.

There is no better grandstander than me. If there was, SI would replace me.

(edit) I would point out that no one collected on any of the 3-4 photos available. Pitiful...but hey, put your money down..find the lady..even money bet...there's still a chance..a couple more out there!

[georger 244]

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I think we can rule out petey.
Georger will point out that he's not a good match for the sketch. Mouth is too big for one.

This picture is a blowup (rotated vertically since his head was tilted) of a high school yearbook picture from Clark Air Base where he was teaching in 1966 before he went to vietnam.

At the very least, it's interesting because it gives a perspective on what some people of the right age, and even background, looked like back then.

We're so used to seeing Duane Weber and Gosset, etc, that it's easy to forget what other interesting people might have looked like. This is 5 years before '71. Also before vietnam experience.

I mostly want to brag about my search skills, since georger has minimum wages folk that run circles around me. (edit) When the jobs run out, I'll be competing with them.

There is no better grandstander than me. If there was, SI would replace me.

(edit) I would point out that no one collected on any of the 3-4 photos available. Pitiful...but hey, put your money down..find the lady..even money bet...there's still a chance..a couple more out there!

Georger will say: wrong everything. You guys
just dont take "somatotyping" seriously! Jo does.
She invented it.

[snowmman 3]

well, ckret said that he hated the idea that a sketch was done, and that basically we should ignore it.

The funny thing is, that eliminates just one more thing to discuss.

So, we're quickly back to: no facts, nothing really but random guesses.

How much more random can it be, then guessing at a loadmaster?


There is nothing that one can say, really, about anything.

So, back to some good posts. Movies? Books? Reserve/cutaway videos? Cardrops? Stories about 377 jumping from 85,000 ft with a space helmet and a dry suit?

(edit)
georger: you will at least grant me that it's interesting I was able to dredge up someone who the FBI supposedly investigated, although when and where seems to be something we can't agree on...
I mean, any time we learn more about the FBI investigation, we learn something potentially useful.

[snowmman 3]

ckret posted some info from the files on the sketches
back in June 25, 2008 here

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3250521;search_string=no%20sketch;#3250521

he said
was reading up on the sketches today, it was just a summary, I'll have to find the file to get more detail. Basically, Schaffner looked at the first sketch and did not think it was a quality depiction, she suggested several changes. Mucklow and Hancock felt the first draft sketch did resemble Cooper but each suggested several changes.

The changes were made and all three agreed the final sketch looked like Cooper.

I think when you weigh each person's words it comes down to tolerances. Each changed the first draft, so each found that the draft was lacking. Perhaps Schaffner's tolerance for detail is more exacting than Mucklow and Hancock. So it's not that the sketches are so far off or people's memories of Cooper are way off. In fact, Schaffner didn't factually change the sketch, she just sharpened it, as did Mucklow and Hancock.

[skyjack71 0]

There was NO reference to WHICH sketch they all agreed on.
I was most assuredly not the first which was a superman type and the second the Bing Crosby look alike. It comes down to the lost Rose drafts and the one that was finally used.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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There was NO reference to WHICH sketch they all agreed on.
I was most assuredly not the first which was a superman type and the second the Bing Crosby look alike. It comes down to the lost Rose drafts and the one that was finally used.

well I'll assume you're lying.
Here's the sketch I got from that forensic artist book that was identified as being done by Rose. It looks slightly different than the colored ones we saw, maybe a draft by Rose. I posted this before.

The mouth and nose are bigger? lower lip fatter? and there's more hair (hairline is more of a widows peak..thicker on top, combed back strongly? Head shape more triangular (as opposed to oval) (thicker head)

looks older relative to the first sketch.

I guess we've been thru all this before. And how it all points to Duane being Cooper.

It would have been fun to do some crime with Duane. I wonder if he always crimed alone? Seems lonely if so.

[georger 244]

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There was NO reference to WHICH sketch they all agreed on.
I was most assuredly not the first which was a superman type and the second the Bing Crosby look alike. It comes down to the lost Rose drafts and the one that was finally used.

Nobody is listening. You;re full of shit and frauds.

[377 22]

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I think we can rule out petey.
Georger will point out that he's not a good match for the sketch. Mouth is too big for one.

I wonder how the FBI first ID'd Petey as a suspect?

Based on my personal experience in criminal cases it's a mistake to rule out a suspect based on a witness sketch unless there is a HUGE difference. Petey may not be Cooper but he is close enough to the sketch to stay in the suspect pool.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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I think we can rule out petey.
Georger will point out that he's not a good match for the sketch. Mouth is too big for one.

I wonder how the FBI first ID'd Petey as a suspect?

Based on my personal experience in criminal cases it's a mistake to rule out a suspect based on a witness sketch unless there is a HUGE difference. Petey may not be Cooper but he is close enough to the sketch to stay in the suspect pool.

377

that's the weird thing. Somehow bruce got info about petey being investigated in 1971 "just days after the heist" .and a few years ago (inexact?) (with 3 agents and dna) .
Petey supposedly wasn't in US in 1971, and very unlikely reachable to be brought back to US...and why would they all of a sudden investigate anyone a couple years ago?

You know: when Ckret left at the end of 2008, I was sure it was tied to me forwarding him Petey's name. It was the same time period.
And then Petey put up a page that said the FBI thought he was Cooper. I'm pretty confident that his page didn't say that before Nov 2008. So I always wondered if it was all connected.

It'd be great if Bruce could get to the bottom of this.

Ckret told us there was no investigation. But if petey was investigated a few years ago, or in 2008, then obviously something is going on.
(edit) Bruce's post was
Petey has been investigated twice by the FBI in conjunction to Norjak. First in 1971, just days after the heist, and then a few years ago by the Bureau's San Francisco office, who had three agents investigating him and got DNA samples (voluntarily, I believe) from him. Not sure on the results or findings. I have asked the SF PIO for an update, but somehow they have not gotten around to calling me.


Or is petey lying? If so, great! we need new blood on the thread and he's got a great background. (plus he's a writer..he knows how to tell a good story)..Bruce needs to bring him in. Heck he might be dead soon..might as well spin some yarns here!

I'd forward his book to Orange1, but I'm not sure she'd want to read it. I think you have to have some US perspective about typical f*ed up US guys of that era, to really understand what he's talking about (he's kind of a nutcase in a way, and some of his talk about women is unsettling). I would also note that apparently you can't get his ebook anywhere else anymore. I assume that's not related.

(edit) There is no bigger liar than Jo, so heck, truth or lie, we can work anyone into the fold. Just need to be able to type. Spelling is optional. See georger's posts.

[Orange1 0]

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What kind of friend or mother are you?

Just exposed yourself there Jo.
Everyone knows it is a very low blow to try make someone feel bad about being a parent.

I called you out on saying you lied to protect people when you (anyone) don't need to lie to protect anyone - you can just, for example, keep quiet. In fact using your very own example:

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If you had information regarding a friend or someone you like that could harm them if you repeated - Would you repeat it?

No, of course I wouldn't repeat it. That is not at all the same as lying. And that is precisely the point I was trying to make.

If the best defense you can come up with for your actions is to try make me feel like a bad friend or mother -- well, that says a lot more about you than it does about me.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.