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DB Cooper

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Georger - I think that you mean HF gets transmitted further than its theoretical line of site range - through reflections from the ionosphere. With VHF there are a few crazy people that play with "moon bounce" where they effectively do the same thing.

One thing to remember with radio range is that when airborne that becomes the "effective antenna height" and this radically changes the range. All of your guys thoughts skipped on tx power which is also part of the mix.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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I don't know when the news of the hijacking was first broadcast, but that is a good question and I'll seek an answer. Marianne says that she knew about the hijacking while she was riding the school bus home. That would have been about 2:30 pm. I'll double-check with M. and my notes.



The hijacking took place at 2:58 PM PST as the aircraft was taking off in Portland. So the chances of someone hearing about it at 2:30 PM are rather remote. Did Marianne also listen to the NWA company airborne and ground frequencies in Seattle? Perhaps 377's in-house advisor can elaborate on this point.

Robert

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This is what's so great and tragic about the Cooper subject, anyone making an improbable claim is given pass after pass for the possibility of one unlikely event following another. If someone references dry and time tested science this must be ignored while adding to the previous improbability. Sure it works that way in all other situations but this is D B Cooper.... so... (fill in the blanks).

If she heard about the hijacking on the bus at 2:30 then she got the news a half hour before 305 released brakes in Portland. I believe Dr Hawkins has published studies about worm holes in time... so Cooper lucked out once again.

The communications, four hours, five agencies and simple geometry.... nothing more here. Give Flight 305 50,000 feet and a transmitter power of 15 megawatts. Yes someone can hear what is transmitted from the jet till landing at SEATAC. Once on the ground the antenna height is 34 feet (exaggerated already by using the tip of the tail) and with 15 megawatts power should reach out a total of 7.2 miles (excluding magic). I am not aware of any VHF transceiver capable of consuming 15 megawatts so exaggerating to the level of absurd has not changed the pattern for 305. Get it? I put them at 50,000 feet (way too high for a 727) and gave their comms a power of 15,000,000 watts, therefore assuming she could hear 305 in the air. Just not on the ground since Shady Acres is 23 miles away.

But she heard the tower... um.. approach control... not ground or departure.. wait... make that.ops.. no I mean she was monitoring the magic channel which people talked on. OK? Lets not concern our selves with the transceiver being 720 (big bucks) channels or 360 channels which was used by light aircraft in 1971. Forget those little details.

The tower was 110 feet high, round up to 200 feet. 200 times 1.5 is 300 with a square root of 17.4 miles line of sight. Almost twice the antenna height, with 15,000,000 watts and a magic receiver that locks on to frequencies that have voice which you want to monitor (is this enough exaggeration yet?) and it still falls short by 5.5 miles. That with the 30 minutes of time travel which makes this teenager the first recipient of the news that 305 WILL be hijacked in a half hour (3:00 PM) when it actually takes off. Good grief.

Two hours and 43 minutes from take off to touchdown for 305. That's 3:00 PM to 5:43 PM local time when Shady Acres could have heard transmissions from 305. At 3:59 PM is when the crew squawked 3100 for the first time letting ATC know they were being hijacked. Leaving One hour and 44 minutes from squawk to landing with the FAA getin' clued in about Cooper. School busses now must operate at or later than 3:59 in order to become agents for hijacking information for teenagers.

Now there is a magic receiver that can auto tune conversations which are pertinent only to the hijacking. A 727 capable of near space flight and a fifteen million watt transmitter scorching the very earth with its mighty beam pattern. And this story still needs embellishment - for crying out loud.

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Georger - I think that you mean HF gets transmitted further than its theoretical line of site range - through reflections from the ionosphere. With VHF there are a few crazy people that play with "moon bounce" where they effectively do the same thing.

One thing to remember with radio range is that when airborne that becomes the "effective antenna height" and this radically changes the range. All of your guys thoughts skipped on tx power which is also part of the mix.



With HF its bending (refraction); with VHF (shorter
wavelengths) its reflection. Your moonbounce example is a case in point but, you are entirely
right we didnt mention power. With more power
at VHF freqs it can be scintillation-relfection.

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This is what's so great and tragic about the Cooper subject, anyone making an improbable claim is given pass after pass for the possibility of one unlikely event following another. If someone references dry and time tested science this must be ignored while adding to the previous improbability. Sure it works that way in all other situations but this is D B Cooper.... so... (fill in the blanks).

If she heard about the hijacking on the bus at 2:30 then she got the news a half hour before 305 released brakes in Portland. I believe Dr Hawkins has published studies about worm holes in time... so Cooper lucked out once again.

The communications, four hours, five agencies and simple geometry.... nothing more here. Give Flight 305 50,000 feet and a transmitter power of 15 megawatts. Yes someone can hear what is transmitted from the jet till landing at SEATAC. Once on the ground the antenna height is 34 feet (exaggerated already by using the tip of the tail) and with 15 megawatts power should reach out a total of 7.2 miles (excluding magic). I am not aware of any VHF transceiver capable of consuming 15 megawatts so exaggerating to the level of absurd has not changed the pattern for 305. Get it? I put them at 50,000 feet (way too high for a 727) and gave their comms a power of 15,000,000 watts, therefore assuming she could hear 305 in the air. Just not on the ground since Shady Acres is 23 miles away.

But she heard the tower... um.. approach control... not ground or departure.. wait... make that.ops.. no I mean she was monitoring the magic channel which people talked on. OK? Lets not concern our selves with the transceiver being 720 (big bucks) channels or 360 channels which was used by light aircraft in 1971. Forget those little details.

The tower was 110 feet high, round up to 200 feet. 200 times 1.5 is 300 with a square root of 17.4 miles line of sight. Almost twice the antenna height, with 15,000,000 watts and a magic receiver that locks on to frequencies that have voice which you want to monitor (is this enough exaggeration yet?) and it still falls short by 5.5 miles. That with the 30 minutes of time travel which makes this teenager the first recipient of the news that 305 WILL be hijacked in a half hour (3:00 PM) when it actually takes off. Good grief.

Two hours and 43 minutes from take off to touchdown for 305. That's 3:00 PM to 5:43 PM local time when Shady Acres could have heard transmissions from 305. At 3:59 PM is when the crew squawked 3100 for the first time letting ATC know they were being hijacked. Leaving One hour and 44 minutes from squawk to landing with the FAA getin' clued in about Cooper. School busses now must operate at or later than 3:59 in order to become agents for hijacking information for teenagers.

Now there is a magic receiver that can auto tune conversations which are pertinent only to the hijacking. A 727 capable of near space flight and a fifteen million watt transmitter scorching the very earth with its mighty beam pattern. And this story still needs embellishment - for crying out loud.



Can you clarify what frequency(ies) we are talking about. ?

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Pick your favorite frequency (Dealer's Choice) and apply it to that 200 foot antenna with a 15 megawatt amp and publish the results assuming the entire area is coated with aluminized Mylar.

How far away from station could one be and still intercept the above transmission?

Forget the Cooper stuff, all it does is rot the common sense gland(s) and makes people mistake humiliation for dignity.

How many miles will an optimized 2 meter signal propagate? My calculation is 37,343.2 miles. I will back up this claim with a complete lack of attribution and experience or knowledge.

I'm totally 'on board' with the $400,000 conversation, the flare obsessed subject (come on folks, how many can there be?) who was spotted by a woman with 20/5 vision that just backed out of a lit garage into the dark embrace of night only to look up and see a person jump. I bought the ticket, now I'm taking the ride.

I abandoned the skepticism about DC-7s taking off from Dutch Harbor and now believe any pilot could have participated in such a simple operation. I anxiously await the story about how a flare can be made that magnifies objects and lights the ground through cloud cover but they were never mass produced because they used a great deal of iridium and only used by Air America operatives who jumped 727s.

I know I will not be disappointed.

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M says:
" The DB Cooper skyjacking was underway as she got home from school. When Marianne got home that day she went straight to her father’s workshop in the hangar and turned on his VHF radio. She called family friends at the Thun Field Tower (Pierce County Airport, now) and got the radio frequency for the Sea-Tac Tower. She tuned in and listened for the next four hours. "



Before we flog VHF propagation physics, lets look at some basics. In 1971 most non pro VHF receivers had very crude analog tuning and most hobbyist scanners were crystal controlled (a switch selected between several fixed frequencies).

M claims she made a phone call to get the SEATAC tower freq then "tuned in." Not as simple as it sounds for a 14 yr old with less than state of the art 1971 VHF receiving gear. She couldn't just enter the freq on a keypad like you can these days. Hunting for an intermittent signal using inaccurate analog tuning isn't always productive. Not impossible, but not a cinch.

My experience is that roughly 1.2 times the square root of antenna height in feet gives a pretty good prediction of the radio horizon in miles. Sure there are anomalies due to reflection, ducting etc, but they rarely make a huge difference.

I liked Farflung's post. There had to be something significant related to that Iridium.;)

I have made contact with a retired NWA pilot who flew their 727s for 20 years, even flew with Rat a couple of times, and seems open to fielding questions. Have any?

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Geoger. Found a 1978 piper thomahawk for $15,500 close by. Fantastic deal. Low hours new Anual.Want to go Flying. Jerry



How did H afford a very nice Beechcraft Bonanza on an FBI salary?

Was he loaded and perhaps didn't mind being an underpaid SA?

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Dr Hawkins has published studies about worm holes in time...



That explains those odd perforations in the Tena Bar money.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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M says:
" The DB Cooper skyjacking was underway as she got home from school. When Marianne got home that day she went straight to her father’s workshop in the hangar and turned on his VHF radio. She called family friends at the Thun Field Tower (Pierce County Airport, now) and got the radio frequency for the Sea-Tac Tower. She tuned in and listened for the next four hours. "



Before we flog VHF propagation physics, lets look at some basics. In 1971 most non pro VHF receivers had very crude analog tuning and most hobbyist scanners were crystal controlled (a switch selected between several fixed frequencies).

M claims she made a phone call to get the SEATAC tower freq then "tuned in." Not as simple as it sounds for a 14 yr old with less than state of the art 1971 VHF receiving gear. She couldn't just enter the freq on a keypad like you can these days. Hunting for an intermittent signal using inaccurate analog tuning isn't always productive. Not impossible, but not a cinch.

My experience is that roughly 1.2 times the square root of antenna height in feet gives a pretty good prediction of the radio horizon in miles. Sure there are anomalies due to reflection, ducting etc, but they rarely make a huge difference.


377

Lets say she was on the fringe of reception. Im still bothered by the detailed report
of a 14 year old. Why do I get the sense her report
is too detailed, almost like a response composed
to respond to something? She's addressessing the
flight path issues of course .. without even being
asked.

She says others were involved:

"Marianne doesn’t fully remember if she was still listening when 305 took off from Sea-Tac at 7:30, or when Cooper jumped in the 8:10-8:30 time frame. She thinks she was, but she was also eating dinner with her family, listening to family discussion about Cooper and their speculations on what was happening and what was going to happen. "


There is a ring of truth to her story?

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Yes, she heard the transmissions. Her story is true, a child is pure and Cooper was a witch.

He asked for and received $400,000 but some corrupt government agency only reported $200,000 being delivered and threatened any contrarians with stuff I don't think I have to go into.

Enough people and information have already gone poof. Just why do you think that is?

Government agencies don't make a profit and their budgets are assigned and tracked so how else would they acquire funds for their spook operations? That's right, you got it - skimming hijacking ransoms. It's all so clear if you people would just think instead if stuffing your faces with Cheese Doodles and downing YooHoos.

Sure the LOS horizon for a 110 foot tower is 11.5 miles rendering any transmission as masked for Shady Acres, but don't let that hinder analysis. Just declare the intercept as feasible anyway because you said so!! And you want it that way, gosh!! At least there weren't any requests for refined parameters (like antenna height and tower height) which was instantly ignored in favor of some voodoo math that made the intercept feasible. Because that would just be Douchy behavior.

What has been done to VHF propagation physics has long passed flogging and now makes Ned Beatty's canoe trip look like he stubbed his toe.

It's fun to be emperor, why do you think there have been so many in history? Can't get your head around the Earth being round in spite of the two massive working models in the sky? Do what has served royalty so well the past few thousand years and declare the world as flat and create you own reality. Should any one disagree simply channel your nations R&D efforts on devices like the rack, iron maiden and Guillotine instead of schools. You will maintain your richly deserved fantasy while looking good at the same time.

Cooper is a microcosm of the most despotic kingdoms that is governed by a pair of mouse balls. All the ignorance of the dark ages combined with enforcement powers of that mattress tag organization. So there is nothing to be gained by assuming the role of Dictator Conflater with proclamations about the improbable or physically impossible unless you enjoy being the focal point of snickers and rolling eyes.

But there is a loose end about the missing $200,000. What did the gubermint do wit it?

One word - Iridium.

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It's all so clear if you people would just think instead if stuffing your faces with Cheese Doodles and downing YooHoos



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,54280,00.html

Sluggo's Moon Pies and pork rinds are old school. We have taken glycemic indexes and trans fats to a new level.

If you know the secret password they will dust the items with traces of exotic metals. I like Iridium. The Japanese prefer the tiniest amounts of Beryllium, highly toxic but it gives them a neural tingle just like eating puffer fish sushi.

Kudos again to Bruce. Turns out our DC 7 captain was interrogated as a Norjack suspect. I was sure that claim was BS but it was true.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Marianne says that she knew about the hijacking while she was riding the school bus home. That would have been about 2:30 pm. I'll double-check with M. and my notes.



Bruce, how did you link up wth Marianne and
become aware of her story?

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377. Ralph has always lived by saving and investing. He wasn't always a FBI agent. However he has had that beach craft for over 30 yrs. He has sacraficed some luxurys of life to aford it and still Flys at 84yrs old. Jerry



Flys a Bonanza at 84, wow! As I recall he flew P 51s and P 40s in the military so he is certainly a seasoned aviator.

What's your excuse for hanging up skydiving Jerry at your young age?

If you are down my way and change your mind I'll buy you a couple of rides to 14K.;)

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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If her claim was that she heard the conversations in Sacramento would that change any assumptions? Spokane, WA? If so why?

My initial post and POINT was about the ambiguity in HER own telling that she could not recall if she monitored anything while 305 was on the ground. That is ALL.

I offered the MOST (biggest margin) conservative estimates (34 foot tail height) and referenced every friggin step in the analysis. Much, MUCH, MUUUCCCHH more than the average person offers on this forum. I even went so far (foolishly) to offer validation by any un-biased person willing to complete a cross check. Instead of correcting my math or posting a different solution, this entire subject released a frothy stool in the bed with proclamations of reflectivity and scintillation that 377 would verify. He did just that and uses 1.2/square rather than the 1.5, I initially posted. So the initial distance calculated is actually of a greater amount.... NOT lesser. Making the monitoring of ground comms even LESS probable.

But I'm open to any NEW (assumes true) information like: they had a 100 foot tower for their UNICOM. But until I have that information, I'm not going to just dismiss the subject and go back to spinning the prop on my beanie.

For Pete's sake georger. Why do you have such Diamond Cutting Fanboi Manwood for this subject? It seems out of character for your usual logical analysis.

I'm surrendering to the battle of wills, you win. Remember, if it turns out they had a 300 foot mast at Shady Acres it won't matter since you were willing to accept a 6 foot antenna as capable of receiving 34 foot transmissions from SEATAC.

I took a nap next to a giant pod and see the wisdom of buried money and flares and felt the need to feed on the sweet, sweet nectar of iridium... I meant brains. Cause Zombies eat brrrraaaaiiinnns.

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If you have read my blogs and other posts, you know that I think the investigation in general was botched, mainly because of biases of some of the lead investigators. However, being a “botched investigation” is not the same as “failure to investigate.”

Whether the investigation was driven by “leads/tips” or by proactive efforts coming from some sort of “think-tank or steering committee” is irrelevant to me.

This article indicates to me the FBI was investigating every possibility that they were aware of and which might have lead to a conclusion.

Now, I have to tread carefully here… least I begin to sound like Jo. So, you read it just as I state it. I have reason to believe the FBI knew about the SF-SOG activities in Viet Nam by as early as 1972. I came by this information since the conversation I had with Ckret (and posted last night). I don’t want to hear a lot of shit about my standards for proof being low… the fact is, I have no proof. But, I trust the person who told me. All information EVER gained from this person has checked out.




Way Back When - Sluggo posted the above! As more and more has becomes evident - do the above statements mean more or less? Are we over a yr later still baffled? Will this skyjacking forever stay unsolved thru out eternity?

There are answers NO one wishes to face. Cooper although he may have been involved in some "secret stuff" (note I do not say covert or SOG) in all probability acted alone or with only one other person. There is NO evidence to prove he died on that night.

The only way Cooper could not be detected was to "change" his life. If he had a criminal past - he had to make sure he was never arrested again for anything. He had to cut all ties with anyone who might remember him and he was aided by the fact the first Composites were so bad (referring to the Bing Crosby look-a-like). It would be several yrs - before other composites would ever be known - to the general public.

No one keeps a secret forever and he knew he had done a bang-up "job" - he knew he had got away with the "big score", even if he lost all of the money.
Unless Cooper died in an accident or unexpectantly he had to tell someone who he really was...this would not be a secret a man would want to take to his death...if he was given the opportunity to tell it when NO one could hurt him or lock him up. This is human nature and survival.

Because he had a "clandestine" past - if the FBI ever found out or suspected who he was - they may NOT have been able to "catch" him because it would have meant exposure of secrets others chose to keep...therefore like poison Ivy they let him be.
Why expose a man who might expose "other" things as long as he was keeping his mouth shut?
Why or how would such a man obtain many thousands of dollars during his last few yrs when his income was basically nothing? Lot's of questions!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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377. Yea Ralph is doing great for his age. Just got off the phone with him about a hour ago. His back is getting better.He thinks that the piper thomahawk is a fantastic deal.I'm thinking of flying it over to let him check it out before I go final on the purchase, Hope shelly doesn't divorce me over buying this plane. She doesn't like me flying or jumping anymore.But thats what happens when your wife love's you and thinks you should walk everywhere you go. She's scared I'll have a accident.To many broken bone's over the past 4 yr's She calls it accident prone says my luck ran out.Jerry

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Dr Hawkins has published studies about worm holes in time...



That explains those odd perforations in the Tena Bar money.

377

Does anyone have a picture or other description of the perforations or other marks that were on the Tena Bar money?

Robert
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Go for it Jerry.

Fly Shelly to a really romantic getaway vacation spot and she'll forget about all the money that plane burns just sitting at the airport.

With a good moving map aviation GPS you wont be flying into any mountains and you'll always find the airport.

You live in a beautiful area. Why not see it from the air whenever you feel like it?

It's safer than jumping if you watch your weather and make conservative go no go decsions.

How many hours on the engine and airframe? What is the panel like, any modern stuff at all for that low price? Any damage history?

Do a compression AND leak down test so you dont get stuck with a weak engine.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Dr Hawkins has published studies about worm holes in time...



That explains those odd perforations in the Tena Bar money.

377

Does anyone have a picture or other description of the perforations or other marks that were on the Tena Bar money?

Robert
Quote



There are lot of Tena Bar money photos posted way back on he forum. Look at Snowmman's posts.

Check this too: http://www.google.com/images?rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS351US351&q=db+cooper+money&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=tMsOTKXxDoPWNuCJ3esM&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDAQsAQwAw

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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