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Guru312 0
QuoteI believe Guru even had them tell him how many jumpers just exited his jumpship.
This is correct. After being a DZO for 6 years I flew jumpers for about 4 years and logged 1500+ hours flying them. I did this at a number of locations in NJ, MD, DE and PA. Time period roughly 1973-1978.
I communicated with ATC from Philadelphia, Dover Air Force Base, NAFEC and BWI. NAFEC is located near Atlantic City and is the home of the National Aviation Facilities Experimental Center.(The name is different today.) They test just about everything related to avionics, communications,radars and more. I mention this because not all controllers could tell how many jumpers left the plane; only those from NAFEC could do that. [If I recall correctly,it was a long time ago, but maybe other did also.] Without a chart to determine exactly, I'll guess that the distances for the two DZs and NAFEC was about 30 miles.
The controllers from all locations could all tell that jumpers departed the plane with out any prompting from me.
In my younger, teenage years of ham radio, I always thought--mistakenly, obviously--that radar required metal for a return. Since the amount and size of metal attached to a jumper is not large, radar must get a return from the jumper too. Plus, radar can detect precipitation and flocks of birds, why not jumpers?
Although I question a correlation between the 'pressure bump' and the exit, the pilots could have asked ATC if they saw anything at that time. I don't recall reading that they did ask.
Now, stop mentioning my name so I can catch a few senior winks before bedtime.
Guru312
I am not DB Cooper
I am not DB Cooper
377 22
Quotealways thought--mistakenly, obviously--that radar required metal for a return.
A VERY common misconception. Furuno even makes a special BIRD RADAR for tuna boats. Birds reflect X band pulses pretty well but S band even better. It is the density difference between air and a target that causes a radar relection within the Earth's atmosphere. Lots of skydivers are full of hot air and other denser substances, but they still make good radar targets.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Guru312 0
QuoteLots of skydivers are full of hot air and other denser substances, but they still make good radar targets. 377
I think you may have hit on the the reason ATC didn't see Cooper jump: whuffos have more hot air than skydivers.
Guru312
I am not DB Cooper
I am not DB Cooper
georger 244
good info - you always supply good info - thanks.QuoteQuoteI believe Guru even had them tell him how many jumpers just exited his jumpship.
This is correct. After being a DZO for 6 years I flew jumpers for about 4 years and logged 1500+ hours flying them. I did this at a number of locations in NJ, MD, DE and PA. Time period roughly 1973-1978.
I communicated with ATC from Philadelphia, Dover Air Force Base, NAFEC and BWI. NAFEC is located near Atlantic City and is the home of the National Aviation Facilities Experimental Center.(The name is different today.) They test just about everything related to avionics, communications,radars and more. I mention this because not all controllers could tell how many jumpers left the plane; only those from NAFEC could do that. [If I recall correctly,it was a long time ago, but maybe other did also.] Without a chart to determine exactly, I'll guess that the distances for the two DZs and NAFEC was about 30 miles.
The controllers from all locations could all tell that jumpers departed the plane with out any prompting from me.
In my younger, teenage years of ham radio, I always thought--mistakenly, obviously--that radar required metal for a return. Since the amount and size of metal attached to a jumper is not large, radar must get a return from the jumper too. Plus, radar can detect precipitation and flocks of birds, why not jumpers?
Although I question a correlation between the 'pressure bump' and the exit, the pilots could have asked ATC if they saw anything at that time. I don't recall reading that they did ask.
Now, stop mentioning my name so I can catch a few senior winks before bedtime.
"the pilots could have asked ATC if they saw anything at that time. I don't recall reading that they did ask. "
reply: I am told the pilot(s) was communicating
on both vhf and uhf - uhf being a military frequency.
ATC had similar capability.
The PI Transcipt does not cover all of the communications which occurred during the critical time period. We already know that ...
G
377 22
NWA 727s did not have UHF AM radios, just VHF AM. F106s just had UHF AM. ATC had both. Some larger military transport acft have VHF and UHF AM comm radios. No domestic civil airliners carried UHF AM comm radios in 71.
377
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 244
woops you're right I was thinking aboutQuoteNWA 727s did not have UHF AM radios, just VHF AM. F106s just had UHF AM. ATC had both. Some larger military transport acft have VHF and UHF AM comm radios. No domestic civil airliners carried UHF AM comm radios in 71.
377
something else - psychological slip (if that tells ya
anything).
Hey we agree for a change!
377 22
Quote
Posted by: Carl Crumley (---.atl.mediaone.net)
Date: February 23, 2002 04:35PM
A friend of mine (who'll remain anonymous) sent me this further information on D. B. Cooper:
"The guy who paid the ransom for Northwest was named John Ahlquist and was a middle manager with NW. He had to walk out to the airplane buck naked with the money bag his only protection from the elements. Anyway, John ended up as my boss at Airline X for a while, which led directly to my retirement from the airline. I did, however, come to understand why he was chosen to carry the ransom to Dan Cooper on the airplane. I am convinced that his bosses secretly hoped the hijacker would shoot him."
foregoing was taken from a Piedmont Airlines history website.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
A more accurate account is found in Snows old post which came from court records:
377
QuoteThis was the court case where northwest was trying to collect on their insurance policy for the ransom.
I snipped details of the money delivery. For instance, I've not seen Grinnell's name mentioned before. See below for his role. Also, I guess by 1975, Tina's last name was Larson already?
Here, Lee's name is given as Elwood M. Lee.
225 N.W.2d 831
303 Minn. 16
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC., Respondent,
v.
GLOBE INDEMNITY COMPANY, Appellant.
No. 44904.
Supreme Court of Minnesota.
Jan. 24, 1975.
Plaintiff's Seattle ground personnel were notified of the hijacking and, further, received home office authorization to procure the money and parachutes demanded by Cooper. In order to obtain the $200,000 in cash, arrangements were made with Seattle First National Bank, through its airport branch. The money was taken from the vault of the bank's downtown facility, and transported to the airport by bank personnel and the Seattle police. The release of cash funds after normal banking hours resulted in a debit to plaintiff's account which was repaid by a transfer credit on the next banking day.
Mr. William C. Grinnell, an officer of Seattle First National Bank, arrived at the Seattle airport at approximately 5 p.m. with the money. He first proceeded to the airport branch of the bank to pick up the branch manager, who then accompanied Mr. Grinnell to plaintiff's air freight terminal, a 'premises' of plaintiff insured within the meaning of the subject insurance policy. An authorized official of plaintiff gave a receipt for the $200,000 while it was Inside the terminal. Mr. Grinnell transferred possession of the $200,000 to Captain Elwood M. Lee, a Northwest [303 Minn. 19] official designated to transport the money to the hijacked airplane, which had landed at the Seattle airport and was parked at the end of a runway. Captain Lee proceeded to the airplane in an automobile and delivered the money to Stewardess Tina Larson, who carried the money into the airplane and surrendered direct physical custody of it to the hijacker. Upon receipt thereof, Cooper allowed the passengers to leave the airplane. Stewardess Larson also delivered the parachutes and other items to Cooper, who was still in the rear cabin of the aircraft. At that time, he allowed two other stewardesses to leave the airplane. Cooper, Stewardess Larson, and the cockpit crew of three men remained on board.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
QuoteQuote
Posted by: Carl Crumley (---.atl.mediaone.net)
Date: February 23, 2002 04:35PM
A friend of mine (who'll remain anonymous) sent me this further information on D. B. Cooper:
"The guy who paid the ransom for Northwest was named John Ahlquist and was a middle manager with NW. He had to walk out to the airplane buck naked with the money bag his only protection from the elements. Anyway, John ended up as my boss at Airline X for a while, which led directly to my retirement from the airline. I did, however, come to understand why he was chosen to carry the ransom to Dan Cooper on the airplane. I am convinced that his bosses secretly hoped the hijacker would shoot him."
foregoing was taken from a Piedmont Airlines history website.
377
Yea! Sure! Like that would NOT have made the Media in 1971.
You will note that all of the Cooper Crap has come up since 2000
I went public. Until then it was relative quiet except for suspects the FBI investigated and most never made public.
The AGE of The Internet Esculated the Cooper Wannabe Stories and no longer was there just a small article in the newpaper that in a few wks was not remembered......
It was around 2000 that some of the older age group decided to engage in Computer activities - mostly because if they didn't they got left behind on their jobs and managing personal affairs..
Keep up or get left behind!
The Internet HiJacked NW.
The Internet is D.B.Cooper.
The Internet keeps Cooper alive.
The Internet gave the FBI grief.
The Internet planned the hijack.
The Internet created Cooper jobs.
The Internet gave life to Cooper.
All in good fun, but think about it and it makes sense.
A naked Delivery Man!
Now that one is a MYTH!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Farflung 0
Nothing makes for better lore than a despised boss, a death wish and some nudity. Here we have all three and will more than likely pass the logic test since we all have probably wanted a boss to complete some menial task in the buff.
However the transcripts and crew notes make no mention of the money courier being required to complete his task sans clothing. This is not to dismiss the fact that this guy could have been a certifiable freak and came up with the nude idea on his own. The fuel and parachutes and food were all delivered by personnel who were still in their respective uniforms and I have reason to suspect the same was true for the NWA money handler.
I recall working with a challenging (read jerk) person who was told to run down a jetway to board an airliner. He was a larger (read fat donkey) gentleman and built up an inertial force from his body mass that overwhelmed his ability to stop or turn himself. I could hear extremely heavy foot stomps down the ramp then thud. He missed the door and hit the fuselage which stopped his forward velocity and ended with a couple surprised Flight Attendants asking if he was OK. Yes, I was embarrassed for him and was kind enough to tell this story at work. Well, a few years later and he is 'panicked' and running down the ramp yelling 'wait for me, wait for...' whoomp. The plane shutters and people come out to see what happened. He's curled up on the floor and crying, some speculate the collision with the aircraft caused his bladder to fail.
Guess that was a bad example as there was no nudity involved.
However the transcripts and crew notes make no mention of the money courier being required to complete his task sans clothing. This is not to dismiss the fact that this guy could have been a certifiable freak and came up with the nude idea on his own. The fuel and parachutes and food were all delivered by personnel who were still in their respective uniforms and I have reason to suspect the same was true for the NWA money handler.
I recall working with a challenging (read jerk) person who was told to run down a jetway to board an airliner. He was a larger (read fat donkey) gentleman and built up an inertial force from his body mass that overwhelmed his ability to stop or turn himself. I could hear extremely heavy foot stomps down the ramp then thud. He missed the door and hit the fuselage which stopped his forward velocity and ended with a couple surprised Flight Attendants asking if he was OK. Yes, I was embarrassed for him and was kind enough to tell this story at work. Well, a few years later and he is 'panicked' and running down the ramp yelling 'wait for me, wait for...' whoomp. The plane shutters and people come out to see what happened. He's curled up on the floor and crying, some speculate the collision with the aircraft caused his bladder to fail.
Guess that was a bad example as there was no nudity involved.
georger 244
One detail Ive never been clear about is what stairs (or combination of stairs) were used for what? I guess passengers and stews departed via the front stairs nearest the cockpit, whereas money and chutes were brought on via the rear stairs (withQuoteA more accurate account is found in Snows old post which came from court records:
QuoteThis was the court case where northwest was trying to collect on their insurance policy for the ransom.
I snipped details of the money delivery. For instance, I've not seen Grinnell's name mentioned before. See below for his role. Also, I guess by 1975, Tina's last name was Larson already?
Here, Lee's name is given as Elwood M. Lee.
225 N.W.2d 831
303 Minn. 16
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC., Respondent,
v.
GLOBE INDEMNITY COMPANY, Appellant.
No. 44904.
Supreme Court of Minnesota.
Jan. 24, 1975.
Plaintiff's Seattle ground personnel were notified of the hijacking and, further, received home office authorization to procure the money and parachutes demanded by Cooper. In order to obtain the $200,000 in cash, arrangements were made with Seattle First National Bank, through its airport branch. The money was taken from the vault of the bank's downtown facility, and transported to the airport by bank personnel and the Seattle police. The release of cash funds after normal banking hours resulted in a debit to plaintiff's account which was repaid by a transfer credit on the next banking day.
Mr. William C. Grinnell, an officer of Seattle First National Bank, arrived at the Seattle airport at approximately 5 p.m. with the money. He first proceeded to the airport branch of the bank to pick up the branch manager, who then accompanied Mr. Grinnell to plaintiff's air freight terminal, a 'premises' of plaintiff insured within the meaning of the subject insurance policy. An authorized official of plaintiff gave a receipt for the $200,000 while it was Inside the terminal. Mr. Grinnell transferred possession of the $200,000 to Captain Elwood M. Lee, a Northwest [303 Minn. 19] official designated to transport the money to the hijacked airplane, which had landed at the Seattle airport and was parked at the end of a runway. Captain Lee proceeded to the airplane in an automobile and delivered the money to Stewardess Tina Larson, who carried the money into the airplane and surrendered direct physical custody of it to the hijacker. Upon receipt thereof, Cooper allowed the passengers to leave the airplane. Stewardess Larson also delivered the parachutes and other items to Cooper, who was still in the rear cabin of the aircraft. At that time, he allowed two other stewardesses to leave the airplane. Cooper, Stewardess Larson, and the cockpit crew of three men remained on board.
377
Cooper still in the bathroom during part of this)?
A diagram of the scene at SEA would be helpful ...
georger 244
QuoteGeorger asks:
Quote"One detail Ive never been clear about is what stairs (or combination of stairs) were used for what? I guess passengers and stews departed via the front stairs nearest the cockpit, whereas money and chutes were brought on via the rear stairs (with
Cooper still in the bathroom during part of this)?"
Fact: The airstairs were NOT lowered while they were on the ground in Seattle.
From Into The Blast:Quote'A Northwest employee brought the chutes and cash aboard and left them just inside the door near the front of the plane. Cooper ordered stewardess Tina Mucklow to bring everything to the rear cabin. She managed it in two trips, first bringing the parachutes, and then the money...'
snowmman
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Jan 26, 2009, 1:35 PM
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were the passengers unloaded using the rear stairs?
I thought at some point policy was to always lower the rear stairs to help prevent tipping of the plane.
Or did all the passengers depart thru the other doors?
I'm wondering if Cooper went in the bathroom, just to avoid the other passengers departing out the rear...
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Jan 26, 2009, 1:48 PM
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were the passengers unloaded using the rear stairs?
I thought at some point policy was to always lower the rear stairs to help prevent tipping of the plane.
Or did all the passengers depart thru the other doors?
I'm wondering if Cooper went in the bathroom, just to avoid the other passengers departing out the rear...
________________________________________
My impression is the front door behind cockpit via stairs with the rear of the plane never opened.
In addition and more important, we have opening/
cracking the rear door BEFORE TAKEOFF which comes
up after passengers deplaned, later in the Transcripts.
If the rear door had already been opened and used
to deplane the passengers or bring things on, then its already open and not an issue -
I also think this because Hancock and Schafner are always spoken of (after landing) as being at the front or near the front of the airplane, and stews bringing things up the stairs at the front, and ... once the passengers had deplaned an issue developed and Scott radios and complains:
' cant you group those people together and get then away from the plane, and keep them away from the plane, we cant have them coming back - we just had one guy come running back that forgot his suitcase and we had to INTERCEPT HIM AND THROW HIM OFF THE STAIRS!' ... that implies: everything happening at the front of the plane.
I think all the activity was at the front of the plane.
(AL LEE in his car positioned out front of the plane with the chutes and money, and all of that)
Here is 305 as it sat at SeaTac.
G.
My impression is the front door behind cockpit via stairs with the rear of the plane never opened.Quote
In addition and more important, we have opening/
cracking the rear door BEFORE TAKEOFF which comes
up after passengers deplaned, later in the Transcripts.
If the rear door had already been opened and used
to deplane the passengers or bring things on, then its already open and not an issue -
I also think this because Hancock and Schafner are always spoken of (after landing) as being at the front or near the front of the airplane, and stews bringing things up the stairs at the front, and ... once the passengers had deplaned an issue developed and Scott radios and complains:
' cant you group those people together and get then away from the plane, and keep them away from the plane, we cant have them coming back - we just had one guy come running back that forgot his suitcase and we had to INTERCEPT HIM AND THROW HIM OFF THE STAIRS!' ... that implies: everything happening at the front of the plane.
I think all the activity was at the front of the plane.
(AL LEE in his car positioned out front of the plane with the chutes and money, and all of that)
Here is 305 as it sat at SeaTac.
G.
Quote
That plane had 2 Doors on the side of the plane and the aft stair in the belly of the plane.
The aft stair where not deployed while on the ground. Where are the photos of the plane while it was on the ground.
I do not believe that Cooper did anymore than step inside the lavatory while the passenger who were seated in the forward cabin departed - perhaps he did not want someone looking back with a camera or charging him. We do know that one of the stewardess (Hancock) asked if she could retrieve her purse in the aft compartment and was allowed to do so.
How many time have we been led to believe the chutes and money where delivered to the rear cabin door. I had always wonder why a certain individual knew how that money went off the plane and his description was the same as mine. I allowed him only to say the first few words and then I finished it until I got to the color and then after I went thru a group of colors he told me a color because I had already told him what it wasn't.
Mr. Himmelsbach told me in the early part of my talking to him this bag was NOT important. That the money was in a whitish bag - period.
I had described to him a bag Duane had - I had only recently donated it to the Mission and it could have been retrievable - I was told the bag I described was insignificant in 1996...and there was no need for me to try to find it.
P.S. I just viewed that photo you posted - OMG....look in the back ground - the place Duane took me in Seattle - the place he took me on the back side of the airport. I have described this to Himmelsbach and others before - but there is the building and the Fence. If Duane had NOT been there that NIGHT in 1971 - where in the 8 yrs would he have been there...at that site.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 244
"The guy who paid the ransom for Northwest was named John Ahlquist and was a middle manager with NW. He had to walk out to the airplane buck naked with the money bag his only protection from the elements.
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Georger posted
"The guy who paid the ransom for Northwest was named John Ahlquist and was a middle manager with NW. He had to walk out to the airplane buck naked with the money bag his only protection from the elements. Anyway, John ended up as my boss at Airline X for a while, which led directly to my retirement from the airline. I did, however, come to understand why he was chosen to carry the ransom to Dan Cooper on the airplane. I am convinced that his bosses secretly hoped the hijacker would shoot him."
reply:
This is not the person who brought the money to the plane and he was not naked. There was a hijacking at SeaTac after the Cooper case where an FBI agent had to carry the cash to the plane in his underware.
(This post was edited by Ckret on Nov 23, 2008, 9:18 AM)
Quote
This is not the person who brought the money to the plane and he was not naked. There was a hijacking at SeaTac after the Cooper case where an FBI agent had to carry the cash to the plane in his underware.
I have been so focused I was never aware that another Hijacking occured at Sea Tac - are you sure of this? Or is this just another story to create more confusion?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Amazon 7
QuoteYou guys make things unnecessarily complicated sometimes. Really, you do.
EVERYTHING was done via the front stairs behind the cockpit. Deplaning of passengers, delivery of the money and parachutes.
The rear airstairs were NEVER lowered while the plane was on the ground in Seattle. Never.Quote'Hello...(hello)...is there anybody IN there...'
Pink Floyd
No this thread is here for entertainment purposes... no matter how much it frustrates some people
georger 244
Quote'Hello...(hello)...is there anybody IN there...'
Pink Floyd
precisely.
Farflung 0
From Into The Blast:
'A Northwest employee brought the chutes and cash aboard and left them just inside the door near the front of the plane. Cooper ordered stewardess Tina Mucklow to bring everything to the rear cabin. She managed it in two trips, first bringing the parachutes, and then the money...'
I've got to hand it to Tina, she is one very robust lady. Although I have not jumped, I have carried a single NB-6 type chute and a flight bag (excuse me, common sample case). OK, more accurately, I would wear the chute (un-strapped) and carry my sweet, little Avon, sample case that contained the codes to drop a big one, to the plane. The thought of actually hauling two of those things along with a pair of reserve chutes down the aisle of a commercial jet is a wee bit difficult to believe. Yet I'm over my resistance to calling a flight bag a catalog case, so this would be the next natural step in my rehab.
Referencing Sluggo's site in the 'Other Evidence' section is a transcript of the Flight Crew Communications. On page 157 (32 of the pdf file) the pilot of FLT 305 says:
"They understand in the back now that the passengers will be deplaned first, then (Peg, a stewardess?) will come down and begin picking the chutes up one at a time and she'll direct you once she gets down there. He will not allow anyone else but her to bring the cutes on. She will make four trips. He understands that, this is his request."
Well, it would take me at least two trips to carry four chutes and I'm just a little, sissy with a cosmetics sample case that I call a Nav Bag, to overcompensate for my Lilliputian mantool. But the version from the transcripts appears to be a little more plausible than Tina acting like some sort of skydiving Sherpa.
'A Northwest employee brought the chutes and cash aboard and left them just inside the door near the front of the plane. Cooper ordered stewardess Tina Mucklow to bring everything to the rear cabin. She managed it in two trips, first bringing the parachutes, and then the money...'
I've got to hand it to Tina, she is one very robust lady. Although I have not jumped, I have carried a single NB-6 type chute and a flight bag (excuse me, common sample case). OK, more accurately, I would wear the chute (un-strapped) and carry my sweet, little Avon, sample case that contained the codes to drop a big one, to the plane. The thought of actually hauling two of those things along with a pair of reserve chutes down the aisle of a commercial jet is a wee bit difficult to believe. Yet I'm over my resistance to calling a flight bag a catalog case, so this would be the next natural step in my rehab.
Referencing Sluggo's site in the 'Other Evidence' section is a transcript of the Flight Crew Communications. On page 157 (32 of the pdf file) the pilot of FLT 305 says:
"They understand in the back now that the passengers will be deplaned first, then (Peg, a stewardess?) will come down and begin picking the chutes up one at a time and she'll direct you once she gets down there. He will not allow anyone else but her to bring the cutes on. She will make four trips. He understands that, this is his request."
Well, it would take me at least two trips to carry four chutes and I'm just a little, sissy with a cosmetics sample case that I call a Nav Bag, to overcompensate for my Lilliputian mantool. But the version from the transcripts appears to be a little more plausible than Tina acting like some sort of skydiving Sherpa.
377 22
Quotecase). OK, more accurately, I would wear the chute (un-strapped) and carry my sweet, little Avon, sample case that contained the codes to drop a big one, to the plane
How did you deal with carrying the cowboy hat and your flight helmet?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Me too. Funny thing, I hooked up an old rotary dial phone a few months back and the system still supports roatry dialing!!! That MUST be some proof of a government telco conspiracy.... advance knowledge that a catastrophic EMP event will fry every PN jucntion in the US taking phones, radios and the Internet down for the count. We'll be back to make and break dialing and carbon microphones. The racks of telco electromech stepper relays and crossbar switches must have been scrapped, so somwhere there are backup ESS switches heavily shielded.
BTW Lockheed never gave EEStor any money, just signed some agreements. Still, mega stupid and it gave considerable credibility to EEStor.
I have a very nicely produced book on Japanese experiments that were basically trying to create the electrical version of perpetual motion machines using toroidal inductors that could tap some sort of universal energy field, something Shirley McClain knows all about. It's chock full of calculus, waveforms and photos of beautifully wound Mobius coil transformers. The book also has verbiage giving credence to reports of late WW2 Nazi U Boats having similar devices to provide inexhaustable electrical power for submerged travel running on their electric propulsion motors.
Maddof had it simpler, just promise impossibly high returns and generate phony statements to "prove" it. He skipped the whole capacitor story and went directly to the wallet.
The real Cooper may be very disappointing to all of us. when his identity and background is revealed. He has been made into Superman. Who else can leap from a flying airliner and disappear?
Is this how religion starts?
Where is Snow when such monumental questions are raised? Quade must be in cahoots with Satan. That "boring skydiver" stuff is just a cover.
377
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