DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

So it seems we should get an answer one way or the other when the fingerprint tests get done, ckret can you give us any idea of the timeline when you plan to do the prints?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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All Cook is doing is trying to ride the Cooper frenzie that is out there right now and nothing more.

Really, Jo, despite evidence from people including yourself that he has been on the Cooper trail for years?

Instead of trying to discredit every other suspect that comes along, why don't you just wait for the FBI to test the fingerprints and take it from there.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

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Quote

All Cook is doing is trying to ride the Cooper frenzie that is out there right now and nothing more.

Really, Jo, despite evidence from people including yourself that he has been on the Cooper trail for years?

Instead of trying to discredit every other suspect that comes along, why don't you just wait for the FBI to test the fingerprints and take it from there.

I am only upset with his method. Falsification of the Composites - they modified the composites and there should have been a disclaimer with the real composites to compare against - Otherwise the unwary individual accepts the modified composites as being the actual composites. That is unethical and not anything I ever scooped to.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[AggieDave 6]

Ckret:

My other thought was when was the last time that any Cooper prints were run through AFIS? Just a curiosity, but understanding that its most unlikely.

Once a thief and a liar, then pretty much always a thief and a liar, if he's still alive or was still alive when AFIS went active, then there's a chance he got hooked up for something that would have entered his 10-print into the system.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ckret 0]

Dave,

I have thought the same thing, wouldn't that be amzing, the answer right there this whole time and all we had to do was run the prints through AFIS (Automated Fingerprint Identification System). i don't know if any of the recovered prints are AFIS quality. I have been meaning to run a request through the lab for months now. I haven't had time to sit down and write the communication to the lab with the request.

I wish it was as easy as sending an email, hell we might actually get something done beside writting communications. This is a whole rant deserving a thread of its own. Have you ever dealt with a government agency and became frustrated at the process? It's no different for the "cogs" in the "machine."

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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Have you ever dealt with a government agency and became frustrated at the process? It's no different for the "cogs" in the "machine."

You, bet.... That's why I don't work for the guv'ment anymore. AND, that's why I cut you so much slack!

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[low_pull1 2]

why dont you:
1)say what the note said
2)why dont you name the certain individual
3) what connections?
3) what group?

you still havent answered why duane was mingling w/ other skydivers out east???

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I have a note that I wrote and concealed where it would be found if I died in a strange manner. It named a certain individual - as I was frightned of this man and his connections (it is not the man who threatened me, but that man was connected to this group also).

[happythoughts 0]

On tv, CSI solves stuff like this in 45 minutes.

"We've identified the red fiber as a polymer only used on the production of Solar Powered Cat Polishers... and there are... 3 of these businesses in a 30 mile radius... send a team of 90 people in honkin' big SUVs to each site for a week."

Do all people who sign up for military service get finger printed?

Mine exist because I worked for local govt years ago.

[skyjack71 0]

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Dave,

I have thought the same thing, wouldn't that be amzing, the answer right there this whole time and all we had to do was run the prints through AFIS (Automated Fingerprint Identification System). i don't know if any of the recovered prints are AFIS quality. I have been meaning to run a request through the lab for months now. I haven't had time to sit down and write the communication to the lab with the request.

I wish it was as easy as sending an email, hell we might actually get something done beside writting communications. This is a whole rant deserving a thread of its own. Have you ever dealt with a government agency and became frustrated at the process? It's no different for the "cogs" in the "machine."

I am finding what you just said
ludicrious. When did they run the prints on Duane against the prints in the file?

I have a letter stating this was done - they used Duane's prints in the system which you and I both know may NOT be Duane Weber's prints.

The prints they found on the plane have supposedly been run against Duane's prints and prints of other suspects.

Did the FBI just send me that letter saying they had run the prints to get RID of me and shut me up?

If what you just said is true - then there is something very wrong with this picture. I suggest that you retrieve from the archives the prints of Duane Weber from past encarceration and not what is on the FBI system and run those ALSO.

Because what you said indicates to me and the general public that Duane L. Weber was not truely investigated. Otherwise you would not have stated what you did - which is the following:

"wouldn't that be amzing, the answer right there this whole time and all we had to do was run the prints through AFIS (Automated Fingerprint Identification System)."

I am sorry, but I find this very disappointing - that our FBI agents claim to be doing things that they did not do. How many other suspects did they NOT check-out?

Now you are going to tell me "They FBI checked Duane out" excuse me it they had checked him out you would have more knowledge of a suspect they had already ruled out and the specifics about how they ruled him out....other than the compromised DNA on a tie...because you do not know if the DNA the FBI extracted from the articles I sent was the DNA of Duane. I do have some of his cremains left - if they can get DNA from that then that will be the only DNA I would trust and also DNA on a watch I refuse to let out of my sight...because I know he and I are the only ones to touch that watch, but I am not sure that I didn't clean it after he died.

It was 7 yrs after he died that the FBI asked for DNA - so I didn't remember who handle what and what I cleaned or didn't clean. Every item I sent had been handled by others - yet there was no mention of multiple DNA's nor did I ever recieve a DNA report.

The report read to me over the phone said nothing about DNA - only prints. Also he only picked out phrases to say to me - did not read the report in its entirety

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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why dont you:
1)say what the note said
2)why dont you name the certain individual
3) what connections?
3) what group?

I told you what I wrote in the note:
If my death is suspicious - please check out _____ ______ and his address and phone number.
I was very afraid of this person and his connections...and I still am so I have only given his name to the FBI.

The connections I am referring to are the Union connections and that I felt that more than one of the companies Duane was associated with were involved in activities - such as providing an employment cover for the "agents" so they had an excuse to be away from home and still collect a pay check.

Most of the employees were legitiment but these companies provided legitiment employment for the men who also did other "work". This other work was not legal and was covert. Sanctioned by some, but not by others.

They hired ex-cons and others with unusual backgrounds - and these men sold insurance to Union Member, Government Employees - Secret Service, FBI and other groups? Note that I ended that statement with a question mark as I will say no more.

I did talk to Galen Cook about this the last time we talked on the phone a couple of months ago. Then now look what is happening.
Remember that Galen Cook is a Union attorney.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[jumpin_Jan 1]

Jo,

WTF makes you to think you are entitled to any explanations at all from the suits???

I don't get it.

You made the claims, it is up to YOU to prove your claim.

You appear to me to actually be obstructing the discovery process regarding other suspects.

I never thought I would sympathize with the suits but I do.
I'm glad I don't have to put up with your constant demands that they prove a negative.

They have DNA and fingerprints.
Your harping about changed prints ignores the fact that prints exist in more than one location for cross reference.

Duane would have been printed each time he was arrested and again each time he was admitted to prison.

The suits have no obligation to explain that to you or explain the method to their madness.

I'm hope they don't waste any more of my tax dollars mollycoddling you. They gave you a listen and moved on based on the evidence they DO have.

I think the REAL DB Cooper could show up at your door with Ed McMahon and a film crew, hand you one of the $20.00 bills and you would STILL claim it was Duane.

I think it is funny (and sad) to see you hold yourself up to repeated ridicule.


PULL!
jumpin_Jan

"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede

[snowmman 3]

377:
I'm not a plane guy, but just guessing about airspeed, ground speed and angle of 727 relative to ground, what's the difference between the landing at Reno with stairs deployed, and a possible takeoff? Is there any?

Isn't the Reno landing a relatively close reverse experiment? We have a visual picture of the results of that experiment also, on the stairs, right? (UPI photos, plus the cronkite video). And we know the landing was successful. Plane didn't catch fire, etc. Don't know if they replaced the stairs afterward. Didn't matter if they could stow, cause that wasn't an important issue in the takeoff scenario.

My main point is that Ckret goes on and on about how Cooper obviously didn't know about the stairs, I think mostly because of this "can't deploy on takeoff" issue. Partly because of needing Tina to show airstair deployment mechanisms I suppose?

What appears to have been true is that the pilots wouldn't takeoff with stairs deployed. Maybe Cooper couldn't predict that. Maybe he could predict what was technically possible, but couldn't press his hand when the pilots refused.

I don't think this is an important theory, but it does highlight in my mind, that some "facts" we have are possibly unproven, and in fact just opinions, on close examination.

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Snowman,

I think you could take off with the stairs down, but it would definitely cause a stair to runway contact on rotation. For that reason it wouldn't be in any approved operation list. Even a tiny foreign metal object shed on an active runway can cause a disaster for the next plane whose engines inhale it. Something like this brought down the Concorde in flames. If the stairs were really rigidly attached to the fuselage in their deployed position it might prevent takeoff, but it seems like they can be deflected upwards so I think rotation could be accomplished.

I'll bet there is no Boeing document that says takeoff with stairs deployed is OK, even though it can be accomplished. A procedure which damages the aircraft and sheds metal wouldn't likely be tried or approved. Still, perhaps Cooper tried something as simple as lifting the stairs a tiny bit on the ground somewhere which would tell him that takeoff with an open door might be possible. My guess is that the stairs are spring loaded or somehow counterbalanced or upwards biased so you do not need a megamotor to retract them.

377

[quade 4]

Take a good hard look at the side view of a 727.

Notice how the tail sweeps upward relative to the rest of the aircraft.

The reason it does is to allow the aircraft to rotate (pivot) over the main landing gear. As the nose lifts for takeoff the tail goes downward toward the runway surface. I don't know the exact number of degrees, but there is a point at which the pilots are not supposed to further pitch up the nose because it will cause the tail to strike the surface of the runway.

If the stairs were deployed prior to take off there would be a danger of not only scraping them, but them damaging the frame of the aircraft as well.

This doesn't even take a person very familiar with the aircraft to know. All it takes is just the vaguest knowledge of how aircraft work and are designed.

If Cooper had extensive knowledge of the aircraft and stairs as some suggest, there is no way he would have asked to take off with the stairs down. The idea of asking for the stairs to be down would pretty much guarantee he only knew enough to be dangerous to himself and others.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[happythoughts 0]

Christiansen did not match the physical description, but he did have airline knowledge because of working as a flight attendant.

Cooper commented that it was taking too long to refuel.

A flight attendant, a baggage handler, ground worker, or some other type of airline employee could have that knowledge through observation, without having been an engineer.

However, an aircraft engineer would know about the stairs and flight situation involving the stairs.

Perhaps the suggestion of lowering the stairs before takeoff makes an aircraft engineer a less probable suspect. Military or airport experience would be a better fit.

[snowmman 3]

I saw a post where someone was claiming Cooper was a loner. in 1971.

The Loner label doesn't add up for me. I'm reflecting a bias.The attire/personal care/behavior doesn't seem to fit, unless it was a disguise. Hard to disguise behavior though.

The interactions with the stews, the dress, he appears to have shaved that morning, combed his hair. Worn a clip on tie with a cheap tiebar, possibly from a men's jewelry "set".

Tina didn't hand him a book of matches when he asked for a light. She lit it for him. A loner? She probably would have just given him the matchbook. A loner would freak Tina out with one look. Wouldn't want to put your hands near his face. Too intimate/trusting.

To me it sounds like there was someone who cared about how Cooper looked. And there were people with whom Cooper cared about his appearance.

The "evidence" being thrown out for Loner status is actually all guesses about things that might have happened that we have no data on (week missing, people noting something about him afterwards, or not being noticed/reported)...That's all speculation based on theories about something or other..but not stuff we have data on.

The evidence we have that's fact is his appearance, dress, and personal hygiene and behavior.

If someone pushes "Loner" theories, shouldn't they be pushing "Disguise" theories also?

I don't get this Loner status theory. Maybe could give some more detail on thoughts?

[snowmman 3]

Hi quade,
so you're saying you know how far the stairs extend out when deployed? Don't we know they don't stay deployed when hit by air pressure? I'm not sure what data you have. Can you specify in feet?

You might be right. I'm not sure what data you're using though on the stairs.

Edit: I'm also not sure how you're explaining the landing then? Is the landing a different situation on plane angle?

Quote

Take a good hard look at the side view of a 727.

Notice how the tail sweeps upward relative to the rest of the aircraft.

The reason it does is to allow the aircraft to rotate (pivot) over the main landing gear. As the nose lifts for takeoff the tail goes downward toward the runway surface. I don't know the exact number of degrees, but there is a point at which the pilots are not supposed to further pitch up the nose because it will cause the tail to strike the surface of the runway.

If the stairs were deployed prior to take off there would be a danger of not only scraping them, but them damaging the frame of the aircraft as well.

This doesn't even take a person very familiar with the aircraft to know. All it takes is just the vaguest knowledge of how aircraft work and are designed.

If Cooper had extensive knowledge of the aircraft and stairs as some suggest, there is no way he would have asked to take off with the stairs down. The idea of asking for the stairs to be down would pretty much guarantee he only knew enough to be dangerous to himself and others.

[377 22]

Quote

On tv, CSI solves stuff like this in 45 minutes.

"We've identified the red fiber as a polymer only used on the production of Solar Powered Cat Polishers... and there are... 3 of these businesses in a 30 mile radius... send a team of 90 people in honkin' big SUVs to each site for a week."

Read about how they found the freeway strangler in Calif, pretty close to that CSI fantasy stuff. The strangler's cord fibers were unique to parachute suspension lines and they nailed the culprit who was a jumper and DZ packer who NOBODY suspected.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Tail strikes are far more common on takeoff than landings in pax jets which tells you something about fuselage angles relative to the runway in both operations. Some jets even have structural components to minimize damage from tail strikes like skids, plates, strakes etc. The long stretched jets had more problems than short ones as you might guess from the geometry involved.

Taking off with the stairs down involved unknown risks. Might they have pulled it off? Sure. Were they certain it could be done safely? Apparently not. If you really want to get double clever, maybe Cooper asked for a stair down takeoff knowing they wouldn't do it and that it would make it less likely that the investigation could link him to knowledge of the Boeing flight tests. As I recall the Hercs I've jumped from do not have the rear ramp down on takeoff. Maybe Cooper thought if he asked for something not normally done, his expertise about airdrops would be underestimated.

I still want to know what Tina thinks of Wolfgang's very clear 1970s photo. That will tell me a LOT while we are waiting for Ckrets govt cogs and gears to grind out a print or DNA analysis. Even if Jo is right about Galen altering the Cooper composite drawings, to my eye Wolfgang looks like all of the Cooper drawings, altered and original. If Wolfgang is proven to be Cooper then that is one hell of a fine job that was done by the composite artist/technician and the witnesses.

Although Jo will probably disagree, you gotta admire Ckret for toughing it out for low FBI SA pay working in a frustrating bureaucracy and even going to Iraq recently for probably 10% of what the Blackwater goons make. As taxpayer's, we are really getting our money's worth from Ckret. The FBI guys don't even get to take free donuts.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

I am not holding them up but want to be treated fairly and you do not understand the fingerprint situation.

Carr told me that what was in the FBI system would be Duane's prints from his last incarceration, but I have proved that another person in that same prison changed his prints. They did not compare Duane's prints in the file with his prior prints from previous incarceration because it was not the norm to do so unless there was a question regarding the prints.

Carr has insisted that the system is infallible and I have shown him that it is not. It is public fact that the system was compromised in the late 60's - I will not rest until I have seen the prints from the archive checked against the FBI file prints.

I will not rest until valid DNA from Duane has been taken - there has to be hits on the two items I have to match the hits they have. They never told me what items they got hits on.

If you saw what I saw and was shown and you were in my shoe you would not give up either. If I could find someway to make the memories of these things go away and then I could let it go.

Let it be noted that I told Cook about the dream that Duane had and it has been stated in this forum and to the FBI from the very beginning about the prints being left on the aft stairs. The night mare in which he says "I left my prints on the AFT stairs" and then says "I am going to die" ending in a blood curdling scream.

Also note that Cook incorporates into his story Gossett talking to a judge about leaving prints and he puts it in the same time frame as Duane having his dream - doesn't anyone but me find this ODD.

I have taken the flax regarding my story - why is it that I am not supposed to give others the same.
I have had people take my story and tear at the pieces - should the public not do the same with this suspect?

Grey's story in the NY magazine we hashed that over and most agreed that it was not pausible. But, now because an attorney who has spent a lot of time talking to me comes up with a story with a LOT of similarities - I want to be treated fair.

I am only stating that the FBI seems to be playing games - and that the information CARR has provided about prints is not correct.
The statement CARR made makes one feel they didn not run the prints on Duane - I am asking for accountability.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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They have DNA and fingerprints.
Your harping about changed prints ignores the fact that prints exist in more than one location for cross reference.

This is the part that you are missing - they didn't check the prior prints before the FBI did it's computer system. The young agents think it is infallible - but most of the prints put into the system at set-up and in the early yrs were NEVER checked against prior incarcerations. The are archived in Washington DC in a warehouse - individuals with multiple incarceration - their prints were NOT checked and the last incarceration prints where the only ones used --- and Duane's come from the time frame and prison that did manage to get prints altered prior to their being put into the computer system. THIS IS A FACT.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[AggieDave 6]

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Have you ever dealt with a government agency and became frustrated at the process? It's no different for the "cogs" in the "machine."

Yeah, I guess you could say I've "dealt" with a government agency...I work for one, but not on the federal level.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

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Duane's come from the time frame and prison that did manage to get prints altered prior to their being put into the computer system. THIS IS A FACT.

Prove it. Show me evidence. Saying "THIS IS A FACT" in bold print makes it about as true claiming Elvis works for the gas station down the street. That's what everyone's problem is, that you make incredible claims with no physical proof.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ckret 0]

377,

How did you know I went to Iraq, it was reported in the news but they never said my name, just an agent from Seattle.

As for the airstairs, they would have been locked on takeoff and would have prevented the plane from rotating up so that it could not get into the air. Quade and 377 got it right.

When it landed the stairs were not locked so when they hit the runway the stairs retracted so there was no major damage. I guess if they had let the stairs down but did not lock them they could have taken off.

Jo,

I don't have the time or energy to reply, so I am going to leave it at, "whatever!!!"

Snowmman,

The stairs and what I have "gone on and on" about them is not my opinion. Its NWA's opinion's about their plane, i am just passing it to you. The loaner theory is me (passive aggressive are we) in an attempt to explain why no one has come forward and reported him missing, if he died the night he jumped.

[bozo 0]

Carr told me that what was in the FBI system would be Duane's prints from his last incarceration, but I have proved that another person in that same prison changed his prints.
--------------------------------------------------------

"proved" ??? I must have missed something.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[snowmman 3]

hey ckret, you must not be good at searching news online.
Your name was in news articles...along with the other 3 on the team..boy/girl/boy/girl hmmmmm...what happens in Iraq stays in Iraq?

JUST KIDDING!

Edit: passive-aggressive. Hey you got my profile! :)