DB Cooper

[377 22]

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MYTH BUSTING IN PROGRESS:


Cooper did not request the flaps be set at 15 degrees.

Cooper never requested a speed.

Cooper never asked for the plane to speed up or slow down.

Cooper did not request flight updates from the crew at any time during the incident.

THE TIME LINE SHIFT

From re-reading the interviews and logs, the work going on here, the money (how and where it was found) and much thought on the subject, this is how the time line has shifted:

At 7:42 Cooper called to the cockpit and told them he could not get the stairs to open. The crew slowed the plane and the stairs opened a bit. (my thoughts here) So now Cooper is looking at the stairs twisting his head around like a dog hearing a high pitch noise trying to figure it out.

He soon gets it, "the stairs drop by gravity, if i walk out on them they drop, the further my weight gets out over the stairs, the lower they go." Having realized this Cooper finalizes whatever it is he needs to do and by 8:05 he is ready to go.

He now starts to slowly test out his theory by walking out a few feet on the stairs. As he does they drop a bit further, causing the opening in the rear of the craft to get larger. Because of this, the air pressure in the cabin starts to change. Rataczak sees the cabin pressure gauge oscillating at 8:10 to 8:12 and reports it to NWA flight ops.

For the next five to ten minutes Cooper gets it all figured out and jumps, creating the "bump" 5 to 10 minutes after the last contact at 8:05.

The oscillations and bump are two different events confused as one by the agents conducting interviews. This confusion led investigators to believe the 8:11 report by Rataczak was the jump.

************

Thanks Ckret for doing yet another MYTHBUSTING rundown of what Cooper did and didn't tell the cockpit crew to do. I keep getting mixed up and thinking he did ask for 15 degrees of flap etc. The power of myth is strong

On the "bump" vs "oscillations": once the outflow exceeds the ability of the pressurization system to keep up, then opening the door wider shouldnt make much of a difference. If we can assume that the 727 was flying unpressurized, then this isnt an issue.

In its unpressurized state, outside atmospheric pressure and cabin pressure are equal. Could the stairs going up and down act as a bellows type pump to create an oscillation in cabin pressure? Snowman? Sluggo? Others? Your thoughts?

I have no doubt about the "bump" being caused by the stair snapping back up after seeing Ckrets air to air photos, but the oscillations still puzzle me a bit.

When jumpers exited the unpressurized DC 9-21 ahead of me there was a definite perceivable acoustic and pressure event associated with each jumper's exit, sort of a whoosh and mild thump. I could have counted exiting jumpers with my eyes closed even though I was seated far ahead of the rear ventral door.

Could the "oscillations" have been the artifacts of Cooper tossing stuff out the door?

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

My dearest nephew Ckret,

You were always impetuous.

In the Flt Ops Transcripts, at 18:21 PST the pilot says:
“We have instructions from the individual. Wants ?NRI GG ? to Mexico City. 2 fly with gear down and Flaps at 15 degrees” yada… yada… yada. {Emphasis Mine}

If you continue with this prevarication, Uncle Sluggo won’t take you shooting bowling pins with him on Saturday.

Uncle Sluggo

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 22]

Quote

My dearest nephew Ckret,

You were always impetuous.

In the Flt Ops Transcripts, at 18:21 PST the pilot says:
“We have instructions from the individual. Wants ?NRI GG ? to Mexico City. 2 fly with gear down and Flaps at 15 degrees” yada… yada… yada. {Emphasis Mine}

If you continue with this prevarication, Uncle Sluggo won’t take you shooting bowling pins with him on Saturday.

Uncle Sluggo

My head is spinning. I'll go with Sluggo on da flapz.

Has anyone showed Wolfgang's crystal clear 1970s photo to Tina Mucklow, the stewardess who got a good look at Cooper? Is anyone working on making this happen?

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[quade 4]

Quote

In the Flt Ops Transcripts, at 18:21 PST . . .

I take it that ONLY transcripts now exist and voice recordings don't or never did?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Orange1 0]

One of the arguments we have heard is that inmates at Jefferson got their fingerprints changed, because we know that James Earl Ray did, and this argument has been used to propose that the prints that the FBI has on file for Duane are therefore wrong, with the conclusion that the fact that Duane's prints were not on the plane doesn't mean anything. I decided to do a bit of digging on the net on this.

James Earl Ray did indeed manage to get his fingerprint card changed at Jefferson. I have found absolutely nothing that indicates any other prisoner did, but no matter - we have to concede that if he could do it then other prisoners, including Duane, could have done the same thing.

However... let's look at this story properly. Ray escaped from Jefferson, and one of the reasons he slipped through the net initially was that the erroneous fingerprint card from Jefferson was the one that was initially released. But... the fact is that it was discovered that the prints were erroneous, and in fact it was matching prints (left by Ray while using a false name) to the correct prints that later got the Feds on his trail and led to his arrest. Both these facts mean that the correct prints were on file and not affected by whatever happened at Jefferson.

This can only mean that every assertion that ckret has made - that changing prints at Jefferson could not possibly have gone back up to the chain and altered what the FBI had - is backed up 100%.

In other words, the James Earl Ray changing prints story, rather than casting doubt on the prints that the FBI has in its database, proves exactly the opposite. If Duane did manage to get his prints changed, it would only have been at Jefferson. There is in fact every reason to believe that the prints that the FBI have are the correct ones. (And as we know, these prints were not matched to any found on the DB Cooper plane.)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

There's been some theorizing on how long from oscillations to bump.

Everyone of all skill levels can chime in here with good thoughts, I think, because we can describe the experiment pretty well? (or describe it the way you see it) ...I'm guessing everyone's time estimate might be pretty similar, because it might be more of a primal human thing..since it's at a point where prior experience just don't apply? It's virgin territory.

I've never jumped. Here's my guess at the critical period from oscillations (stairs finally open) to bump (jump)

You're Cooper. You're finally at the climax.
Finally the pilot has slowed the plane so the stairs seem to crack open a bit when you weight them, like Ckret says. There's no manual you could have read about what's going to happen next.

You're trying to spot where you going to jump, maybe hoping to see some lights. You're holding on with two hands at first cause you're not sure if you're going to be sucked out or what. Heck you waste 30 seconds just absorbing the wind rush at the moment. After all this mental stress controlling others, it's all about to be over.

You've got some stuff that's not tied to you you want to toss out. You go out the first time holding on with two hands..You come back and grab some stuff and toss it.

You nervously double check all the snaps and buckles and slap the rip handle so you're sure where it is. You're thinking "Did I forget anything".."Is this a really bad idea" "Should I wait some more" "Is it going to get better or get worse" and you are ALONE. There's no one to give the thumbs up to, no one last human face to look into for reassurance. It's dark inside, it's dark outside.

Hell, imagine you've got nerves of steel and butt muscles to match. I don't think that helps though, I think there's a minimum time that has to go by.

How long does it take you to get all that done and get yourself down the stairs? It might be the last thing you do in life. I can see taking 5 minutes...heck even if it means you see the lights of portland going by......well landing near portland ain't so bad you think...as you work thru everything in your brain one last time. "Was it worth the risk"..."Yeah" you say to yourself.

Yeah, I can see the Pucker Walk taking at least 5 minutes after initial oscillations. There's no reason to rush and die because you went too quickly. You've spent hours on this damn thing already.

No matter what, on the Pucker Walk, Cooper knows he can't guarantee success from now on. He's going from in control to maybe just slightly in control.

Hey we could actually get a bunch of jumpers to do this experiment. Just put them in a 727 at night with the lights out and say "Hey the stairs should open now if you weight them. Go back there alone, take this stuff and dump it out and go jump with the chute you got on that I gave you earlier. I'll be up front watching. Good luck"

and time it.

[quade 4]

Quote

There's been some theorizing on how long from oscillations to bump.

Or, try this as an experiment . . .

Take a piece of plywood, 1 foot x 1 foot square and attach it to the lower part of the rear bumper to a car with gaffer's tape so that one edge is hinged and the rest is allowed to flop in the breeze. Drive the car down the street at various speeds and either from the side of the road or a following car watch the behavior of the piece.

My prediction is that no matter how fast you go above say, 10 mph, it will always flap in the wind. It's never going to just sit there and hold still. That's your oscillation right there; just the staircase flopping in the breeze. DB Cooper doesn't have to be anywhere near it from stair deployment to the moment he exits. He doesn't have to have one foot resting on it while he gets all misty-eyed about his future and he doesn't have to keep opening it to toss crap out. It's going to flop around all by itself.

As for your "wind rush", there really isn't one until you get out. Oh sure there is a small amount of turbulence flopping bits and whatnot around right at the door, but you can easily stand in the tail gate of a 727 without hardly noticing it at all. The wind, for the most part, is going past the plane, not into it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

Hi quade.

So you're suggesting that there were oscillations all the way to Reno then?

Ckret: what does the testimony say? Did the pressure oscillations continue, or did they stop at some point.

I thought the pictures showed that after the bump the stairs stayed closed.
(edit) They must have lowered when they landed, cause they got sparks. So "no air pressure" -> they fall open...."air pressure" --> stay closed?

(edit) Also: if there's no wind rush like you say, that means there's no turbulent/chaotic wind flow, so the air pressure/flow across the stair should be relatively constant? Ckret should be able to straighten us out on this from the experiment results.

So the plywood flapping analogy is not a valid one?

Yeah, I do get misty eyed when it's a reasonable guess I might die. I don't if I know I won't die. Two different things. Cause you got to resolve it all before you go. Being misty eyed in the middle doesn't help success.

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

The issue of accuracy vs. flexibility began with Ckret questioning Sluggo about how accurate any time stamp in the transcript could be, whether it was typed TTY or RTTY or radio exchanges, and who and when time values were being assigned to become a part the transcript. At length, you all came to the conclusion and agreed these time stamps are not set in stone but flexible, and probably early. 8:10 can easily become 8:13, 8:13~8:20,and so on. Changing the times changes the position of the plane along its flight path. Merwin Lake becomes northern Vancouver becomes northern suburbs of Portland south of the Columbia. (with the south wind aloft 10-20 kts you have all found in the WX records - applause to you guys!)

georger,

I am well aware that if I place information on my website, this forum, or any other forum, readers are free to use it as they see fit. They may use it to better understand the “facts of the case,” or use it to further their own agenda to prove a suspect was or was not Cooper. However, the above statement is a total distortion, in fact, it is pure fiction.

Point by point:

(Fact) Ckret never questioned me about the accuracy of time stamps on the transcript.

(Fact) There never was an RTTY, they didn’t exist on NWA flights at that time.

(Fact) The time stamp is a product of the TTY and as such in inalterable.

(Fact) Based on the above statements the “who” is a machine.

(Fact) The time stamps are set in stone with the exception “listen to type time” delays.

(Fact) The FBI assigned to “listen to type time” delays to be 1 min or less.

(Fact) 8:10 cannot become 8:13 – 8:20. 8: 10 can become 8:09 and only 8:09.

(Fact) The crucial fact here is the oscillations were time-stamped but the pressure bump was not. The pressure bump time was estimated (by the flight crew) as 10 to 15 minutes after the 8:05 call to the back. That is the only time issue with any variability.

(Fact) Times listed on the TTY log do not change the position data based on Air Force Radar. The TTY log is useful for identifying the times of communications. With few exceptions (where positions were reported by the crew) it does not identify positions of the aircraft.

(Fact) The Radar data is accurate to 1 NM (plus or minus) along the azimuth of the scan. The angular resolution is unknown (to me).

I would appreciate the courtesy of checking with me, before you attribute your conjecture to my data.

What say you? Favorite-Nephew Ckret?

Sluggo_Monster

NOTE: I was going to put an “Angry emoticon here, but my emotion is more a mixture of amusement and disgust.

________________________

Well then I must have misinterpreted everything that
has been said during the last several months because
I thought 'flexibility' in the flight path was an issue.

You are the flight path expert here and I applaud your
hard work.

I will now assume those time stamp values are accurate down to a nanosecond, if you say so.

How does this now affect the possibility of a jump over
northern Portland vis-a-vis the money at Tena Bar.
in your opinion. ?

'I'm just trying to illumninate the terrain in which we
currently find ourselves', to quote a movie. javascript: addTag(':)')
javascript: addTag(':)')

Thanks,
Georger

[snowmman 3]

hey georger,
I don't understand the new timeline either.

I guess I just would like to see Sluggo move his red'ed 8:11 period to whatever the current consensus period is for probable jump. Maybe at a 10%-90% confidence interval. Or pick a confidence interval. Whatever makes him happy. To have a 100% confidence interval with the data measurement techniques we have, we probably need to use something like 20 minute window for oscillations to jump.

It'll be interesting to see what data Sluggo decides is valid for this period. None of the other data matters much without this period. So Sluggo needs to put something?

So we're being bad scientists and swagging stuff, but Sluggo ignores that?

If there's no current consensus period, then he should remove his 8:11 period and just say "we haven't agreed on a jump point"

Because Ckret just told us that the interview data is likely misinterpreted. So Sluggo has no data. We have to agree on a new interpretation somehow.
We could Rock/Paper/Scissors? :)

[georger 247]

Snowmman, forgive my ignorance, but unless I am
dreaming this, somewhere in these pages (previous
locked Thread) there is an extensive discussion about
what communications 305 had, or did not have. Phone,
radio, TTY, RTTY, etc. A number of people researched this.

I thought the conclusion was, 305 had no RTTY,
no TTY, no phone, and everything was done by radio
transcribed into a TTY machine (or something) on the
other end. Maybe I'm totally wrong but this discussion
did take place here previously.

It was out of that discussion that the issue of time stamp accuracies developed.

The previous debate was everyone thought Scott or
Rataczak were sitting in the cockpit typing out their
messages (which I also had assumed), until someone
here did some actual research and discovered NWA did
not supply its 727's with RTTY or TTY capability in 1971. So that took the issue of TTY in 305 off the plate, a few here said 'oh!', and it was decided all flight
comms coming from 305 were by radio.

My reference to this matter was based on what I thought I read, not from Sluggo's website, but from
discussion here....

George

[snowmman 3]

I think Sluggo created a scenario where he could predict the skew between radio transmissions and the arrival of text on paper somehow. He tried to explain it a couple posts ago, but I'm not sure he really knows what devices were being used. If there were rtty baud rate limited behavior (like mechanical printing speed after hitting send or something) between keyboard and paper, then that's one question. If the timestamp was generated at the keyboard device or the printer device that's another. If the keyboard and printer device was one device, that's another.

Sluggo seemed confident of all of this, but I didn't really understand why.
(edit) it seems like maybe he's just using a constant delay of 1 minute that the FBI came up with. In that case I would say the FBI number is probably just a guess, and should really be a range.

Could it be somewhere between 0 and 2 minutes? dunno. Could it actually vary between messages? maybe..without understanding what's causing the delay, we can't understand if it varies.

So I don't see where he knows enough to say that the timestamp gives perfect precision between messages either.

We could start with getting more data on the RTTY stuff from ckret maybe.

(edit) I mean if the timestamp is at the end of the messages, and the length of the messages vary, as well as the typing speed that created them, then the time between the first utterance, and the timestamp, has to vary per message?

[georger 247]

Resolution also a product of weather conditions in
those days.

A fanciful sidenote Ive always wondered about is if
any HAMs or SWL's happened to catch any of the communications. The period around Thanksgiving
used to be rather active during those years, on the
ham bands. Ive never seen anything in print if someone did report hearing something - - -


George

[georger 247]

Sluggo.

Forgive me for saying this but I thought it was decided
305 and no 727 operated by NWA had TTY capability.

So who is doing the typing?

George

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

In other words, the James Earl Ray changing prints story, rather than casting doubt on the prints that the FBI has in its database, proves exactly the opposite. If Duane did manage to get his prints changed, it would only have been at Jefferson. There is in fact every reason to believe that the prints that the FBI have are the correct ones. (And as we know, these prints were not matched to any found on the DB Cooper plane.)

NOTE - file prints also did not match the fingerprint evidence the FBI obtained from me like the Resume.

NO prints on Duane's file matched the prints for Duane L. Weber that were provide in 2003.

This is not important in the whole picture - but only Ghost leave no prints. It just raised a question I nor the FBI have an answer for at this time...he died in 1995 and they collected that resume in 1997 and I was careful not to handle it much. They did not collect the OTHER items until 2003 so I can see how they may not have been able to get good prints from those items.

Thank for verifying my James Earl Ray story. I may not have understood it within in its entirety and still do not, but at least it did happen and you were able to find that it did happen. The FBI told me it never happened.

If you would be so kind pm or post the reference you found for my records. Thank You, Orange.
I am in your debt.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Has anyone showed Wolfgang's crystal clear 1970s photo to Tina Mucklow, the stewardess who got a good look at Cooper? Is anyone working on making this happen?

Tina has never seem the photos of Duane - and the one's I have saved for her eyes only - because of a certain look - no one has seen the photos that clearly resemble Christiansen and Mayfield - Duane was a chameleon with his appearance.

Florence has said "You are on to Something" when viewing the Christiansen photo but she was shown an old picture of Duane (with a phone camera) and said he was to old - no explanation was given of age and the time frame of the picture.

One of the pictures I am trying to get scanned closely resembles Christansen in the pose and with the chin down...yes, he has on glasses.

Like I have said I would donate money to Tina's charity of her choice for the chance to sit down with her with the photos and explain the time frames and ask one or two very important questions. There needs to be several photos of each subject with age explanations.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 247]

Exactly. (A Feynman experiment)

George

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

There's been some theorizing on how long from oscillations to bump.

Or, try this as an experiment . . .

Take a piece of plywood, 1 foot x 1 foot square and attach it to the lower part of the rear bumper to a car with gaffer's tape so that one edge is hinged and the rest is allowed to flop in the breeze. Drive the car down the street at various speeds and either from the side of the road or a following car watch the behavior of the piece.

My prediction is that no matter how fast you go above say, 10 mph, it will always flap in the wind. It's never going to just sit there and hold still. That's your oscillation right there; just the staircase flopping in the breeze. DB Cooper doesn't have to be anywhere near it from stair deployment to the moment he exits. He doesn't have to have one foot resting on it while he gets all misty-eyed about his future and he doesn't have to keep opening it to toss crap out. It's going to flop around all by itself.

As for your "wind rush", there really isn't one until you get out. Oh sure there is a small amount of turbulence flopping bits and whatnot around right at the door, but you can easily stand in the tail gate of a 727 without hardly noticing it at all. The wind, for the most part, is going past the plane, not into it.

I will say more, I hope ok. Everything in motion has a
natural frequency depending on the situation of course. The key is motion. (from atoms to aircraft to
posters sitting chairs typing). The stairs are attached
to the pane so their motion in the airflow has a 'moment', develops a natural frequency of movement.

A hole in an object in motion causes a Bernoulli effect.
So the minute the back door was cracked on the plane
in motion, air was sucked out (like a car window only
more so.).

Cooper knew this. That is very likely why he wanted Mucklow to be the one to open the door. (Its in the
transcript) Scott asked if she should be tied down and
the answer was yes. Once air rushes out of the plane
it probably equalised, unless some change in altitude.

But I have always wondered how far into the plane
turbulence was a factor. You skydivers would know
something about this -

[georger 247]

Quote

hey georger,
I don't understand the new timeline either.

I do, at least I think I do, and when it arrives I think
everyone is going to be very happy if not smiling.

While I am very serious I also am trying to have
some fun with this, not as an older smartass, but
as a grain of sand on the beach of this whole thing
and I think a few conclusions are beginning to take form after a lot of hard work on everyone's part and
what can be learned is being learned.

George

• Quote

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

Once air rushes out of the plane
it probably equalised, unless some change in altitude.

But I have always wondered how far into the plane
turbulence was a factor. You skydivers would know
something about this -

As stated in numerous posts before, the aircraft was not pressurized...Therefore, there would be no 'rushing out of air' from the plane when the rear door was cracked open.

Also, stated before, there is no turbulence at the back of the plane with the door open. Or at least, very little that would perhaps remove a paper placard poorly affixed to the open door.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[georger 247]

and one more thing:

I ADMIRE THE HECK OUT OF SLUGGO.

I can say this very easily. His website is magnificent
and a work of art. I have even sent people there.
When I first saw his website my jaw dropped. If that
guy was anywhere near I would take him out to dinner,
or give him a job, or something. He probably doesn't
need a job. Maybe he could give us all jobs! I don't
know but I admire the heck out of Sluggo, and I get
a kick out of him too.

So your words are well taken, Snowmman.

George.

[quade 4]

Quote

But I have always wondered how far into the plane
turbulence was a factor. You skydivers would know
something about this -

And as a person that has jumped out of the Perris jet and has on more numerous occasions that he can recall stood for a number of minutes hanging on the outside of a Twin Otter as well as standing on the inside of a Sky Van I can say with some confidence that standing on the inside of any tail gate aircraft is roughly the equivalent of small, spring breeze. Far less than what you'd experience with a side door aircraft and probably less than you'd experience in most cars with a window rolled down. Take a step or two back from the actual tailgate door frame and you'd actually be hard pressed to tell the difference between the door being opened or closed except for maybe the temperature.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[377 22]

Quote

Sluggo.

Forgive me for saying this but I thought it was decided
305 and no 727 operated by NWA had TTY capability.

So who is doing the typing?

George

Minneapolis NWA operations center. Operators on the ground were typing out what they heard on VHF radio linked to their center.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

NO prints on Duane's file matched the prints for Duane L. Weber that were provide in 2003

Explain what you mean by this.

Did you come to this conclusion by assuming that since none of his prints were found on the resume then they didn't match? You can't make broad statements like the above and have people believe them. That's why a significant number of people think you suffer from some sort of mental illness. You need to show some sort of evidence to support your wild theories.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ckret 0]

Dave, I'll explaine it, Duanes prints are most likely on the resume but because of the touch of others are of no value.

As for the flaps at 15 degrees, now i am confused. In the crew interviews they listed Coopers demands as I laid them out. Could it be that when a 727 flys at 10,000 feet with wheels down you would only fly at 15 degrees. If so, maybe they reported 15 degrees by default.

As for the RTTY time stamp, the person communicating with 305 kept a handwritten log with time entries at each line. I'll compare the two logs to see if there is any difference