DB Cooper

[Robert99 50]

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I guess they (cement ships) floated OK but were so heavy that engines were not powerful enough to move the things. Didn’t they have slide rules and pencils back then? So they turned out to be colossal losers and served no useful purpose. Nice going all knowing and seeing guberment.

That wasn't the problem Farflung. Drag is far more important in ship performance than weight. If weight were a big factor those huge container ships would have to be nuclear powered to do 23 knots but they do OK with big diesels of relatively low horsepower (100,000 hp typical). A Boeing 747 has about 500,000 hp. A friend of mine is an officer on a medium sized container ship and he says he calculates that they burn about 60 gallons per mile.

The Palo Alto (which I used to fish off of when I was a kid, before they blocked access) displaced about 6000 tons and did about as well as any other ship of similar size with a T3 steam engine. That engine only developed 375 hp at full boiler pressure (nhp). It obviously wouldn't win any races.

In the 60s and 70s a lot of so called ferro-cement fishing commercial boats were built. They performed OK and were cheap to build, but eventually water would penetrate the cement and the encased steel rebar and wire mesh would start to rust. Cracks ensued. They could be patched, but what really killed the ferro-cement boat craze was a university engineering study that showed that the hull strength was directly proportional to the amount of steel used in rebar and mesh, hence the strongest ferro-cement boat would have 100% steel and no cement, so back to welded steel hulls.

There is a ferro-cement commercial fishing boat at Princeton harbor at Half Moon Bay, called the EOLITH. It's still shipshape and active.

If you want to see a real radical ship building idea check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk

I am awaiting details of Jerry's flow tests. If stuff launched in the Washougal ended up at Tena Bar that is significant. I know flow, storms, tides etc are big complicating factors in trying to model how the currency stacks might have travelled over that path, but still it is a big deal if Jerry has demonstrated at least a possibility that the Tena Bar bills orginated in the Washougal.

377

That medium size container ship gets 88 feet per gallon if it only uses 60 gallons per mile. There is a sign in the Queen Mary's (docked in the LA area) engine room that states it got about 10 or 11 feet per gallon of diesel after it was converted from coal.

Maybe the Queen Mary cruised at a higher speed and was a lot smaller, but the container ship's fuel consumption seems to be high.

Robert Nicholson

[377 22]

Roughly speaking, 0.25 lbs/hp/hr is considered to be pretty good, and 100,000 hp is a low-side estimate of an average container ship's horsepower. This then works out to 25,000 pounds of fuel per hour. Fuel (heated bunker C or marine diesel) weighs about 7 or 8 lbs/gallon (lets assume 7) which gets us about 3600 gallons per burned per hour. A common cruise speed is 25 knots or 28.75mph. To make the math easier, let's call it 30mph. What this means is that for a container ship to travel 30 miles, it'll burn through 3600 gallons, which is the same as burning 120 gallons to go one mile . There are 5280 feet in a mile, so if 120 gallons is good for 5280 feet, then one gallon is burned every 44 feet!.

Above from Wiki.

A 727-100 burns about 1500 gal per hour cruising fast at high altitude. Specific fuel burn goes up at low altitudes where the engines are not as efficient, but they fly at lower power settings with flaps down etc. When Cooper jumped my very rough estimate is that they were getting about 800 ft per gallon of fuel.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Farflung 0]

You’re right 377 I was not paying the proper homage to maritime statuary which happens to be shaped like a ship. I should be celebrating the innovation displayed by that dude that turned this vessel into a ‘rock’ing party boat during that national ‘Board up our ass fest’ called prohibition.

I would have designed the Palo Alto with a swimming pool shaped like a giant bowling pin with a bar. This next to a runway illuminated entirely with flaming Tiki heads (from Easter Island) which is just long enough to accommodate a Twin Beech. Back-Course approaches only, as GPS is for wussies. Music would feature all things with a lapidary association:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkkZLD20_rQ

Of course Nuns and Lesbians would receive free transportation. But what would I name such a perfect place?

[377 22]

Local legend says that there was a lot more than booze available on the Palo Alto when it was anchored outside the 3 mile limit, but I don't think any of the professionals met your specs.

Forget back course approaches on steam gauges. Here is what happened to a Twin Beech jumpship flying skydivers in CAVU weather to an accuracy contest at a whorehouse.

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/36702396@N00/5349759560/

First prize was a free session with the lady of the winners choice. The legend says the pilot got distracted by one of the "workers" showing her assets on a low pass.

I know of no convents with adequate runways Farflung, so forget about it.

What if Cooper actually exited far from the Washougal and landed at one of the NV brothels with $200,000 in cash. As long as he still had money to spend they'd never turn him in.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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Of course Nuns and Lesbians would receive free transportation. But what would I name such a perfect place?

Heaven
Habit Hutch
Dike's Pique

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 245]

I am awaiting details of Jerry's flow tests. If stuff launched in the Washougal ended up at Tena Bar that is significant. I know flow, storms, tides etc are big complicating factors in trying to model how the currency stacks might have travelled over that path, but still it is a big deal if Jerry has demonstrated at least a possibility that the Tena Bar bills orginated in the Washougal.

377

Jerry also claimed diatoms specific to
the Washougal (a large basin with different bio
environments?) would be found in the money.
We looked and found none. (But of course we
were incompetent and lacked the credentials
compared to Professor Thomas).

So I turned to micro-palentologist Dr. Eileen
Hemphill-Haley for help.

Eileen and her husband are well versed in this
topic and aware of the general body of research
in this specialisation. Eileen consulted several
others and said "No. Sorry. The research does
not support Jerry's idea". Jerry was sorely
disappointed and rejected Eileen's advice saying
"She's full of shit!".

So I await Jerry's diatom research, in addition
to his hydro travel tests .......

Jerry sees himself as some kind of Gatekeeper
in the Cooper affair.

Did Geof Gray include Jerry's forensic testing in
his book? I await that too.

We already know things get from the Washougal
onto Tina Bar. The only issue is when and how
and under what circumstances.

Only God and the Fazios and Jerry know! Or,
some hydrologist Galen Cook consulted might
also know? Gee! I am supposed to be helping
Galen write his book, so ... I will look through
my notes. Maybe I know and dont know that I
know! ?

[Robert99 50]

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Roughly speaking, 0.25 lbs/hp/hr is considered to be pretty good, and 100,000 hp is a low-side estimate of an average container ship's horsepower. This then works out to 25,000 pounds of fuel per hour. Fuel (heated bunker C or marine diesel) weighs about 7 or 8 lbs/gallon (lets assume 7) which gets us about 3600 gallons per burned per hour. A common cruise speed is 25 knots or 28.75mph. To make the math easier, let's call it 30mph. What this means is that for a container ship to travel 30 miles, it'll burn through 3600 gallons, which is the same as burning 120 gallons to go one mile . There are 5280 feet in a mile, so if 120 gallons is good for 5280 feet, then one gallon is burned every 44 feet!.

Above from Wiki.

A 727-100 burns about 1500 gal per hour cruising fast at high altitude. Specific fuel burn goes up at low altitudes where the engines are not as efficient, but they fly at lower power settings with flaps down etc. When Cooper jumped my very rough estimate is that they were getting about 800 ft per gallon of fuel.

377

At 8:10 PM PST, the FBI notes indicate that the fuel flow was reported as 4000 pounds/hour/engine which comes out to 12,000 pounds/hour/total or 2000 gallons per hour if Jet A weighs 6 pounds/gallon (I think the number is slightly more).

The above fuel flow numbers are reported to be the ones that the NWA performance group used in their range calculations.

With a true air speed of 194 knots (or 223 statute miles per hour) this comes out as 9 gallons per mile, ignoring wind, or 587 feet per gallon. The feet per gallon would be less than 587 due to the headwinds.

Robert Nicholson

[georger 245]

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Quote

Roughly speaking, 0.25 lbs/hp/hr is considered to be pretty good, and 100,000 hp is a low-side estimate of an average container ship's horsepower. This then works out to 25,000 pounds of fuel per hour. Fuel (heated bunker C or marine diesel) weighs about 7 or 8 lbs/gallon (lets assume 7) which gets us about 3600 gallons per burned per hour. A common cruise speed is 25 knots or 28.75mph. To make the math easier, let's call it 30mph. What this means is that for a container ship to travel 30 miles, it'll burn through 3600 gallons, which is the same as burning 120 gallons to go one mile . There are 5280 feet in a mile, so if 120 gallons is good for 5280 feet, then one gallon is burned every 44 feet!.

Above from Wiki.

A 727-100 burns about 1500 gal per hour cruising fast at high altitude. Specific fuel burn goes up at low altitudes where the engines are not as efficient, but they fly at lower power settings with flaps down etc. When Cooper jumped my very rough estimate is that they were getting about 800 ft per gallon of fuel.

377

At 8:10 PM PST, the FBI notes indicate that the fuel flow was reported as 4000 pounds/hour/engine which comes out to 12,000 pounds/hour/total or 2000 gallons per hour if Jet A weighs 6 pounds/gallon (I think the number is slightly more).

The above fuel flow numbers are reported to be the ones that the NWA performance group used in their range calculations.

With a true air speed of 194 knots (or 223 statute miles per hour) this comes out as 9 gallons per mile, ignoring wind, or 587 feet per gallon. The feet per gallon would be less than 587 due to the headwinds.

Robert Nicholson

You just made my day!

[377 22]

Snowmman did a lot of research about the insurance litigation that NWA got into over Norjack losses. As I recall it was centered on the ransom money. I wonder if NWA also claimed the crew overhead, fuel and wear and tear on the Cooper commanded flight segment? The plane sustained some damage on landing when the extended stairs struck the runway.

I think Robert has the more acurate number on 727 fuel economy, but my rough cut wasn't too far off. I am an engineer, Robert is probably trained in real science.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 50]

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Snowmman did a lot of research about the insurance litigation that NWA got into over Norjack losses. As I recall it was centered on the ransom money. I wonder if NWA also claimed the crew overhead, fuel and wear and tear on the Cooper commanded flight segment? The plane sustained some damage on landing when the extended stairs struck the runway.

I think Robert has the more acurate number on 727 fuel economy, but my rough cut wasn't too far off. I am an engineer, Robert is probably trained in real science.

377

Actually, I am an aeronautical engineer who also started learning to fly when I was 15 years old. So I have been juggling these performance numbers longer than you and Georger have been breathing in all probability.

For the record, it's just about paying attention to all the nit-picking details.

RN99

[skyjack71 0]

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Geoger I made that post this am and then checked out of my room .Went straight to the computer repair shop I'v been in John Day oregon for two days . Right now I'm 70miles from the house .I will address your inpatient request as soon as I get home you should know by now if I don't respond asap that there is a reason.I'm fixing to loose signal headed over the pass. Jerry

To Heck with the rest of this stuff, I want to know why you have been in John Day, OR just days after I mentioned Duane was very familiar with that area and that John Day seemed to be a part of Duane's past.***.

What did YOU do - go there to see if you could destroy any more evidence?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JerryThomas 0]

Robert 99 The river is tidal and controled by the rain fall as well as streams an rivers entering it. The Dam does not control the level of that river. The washougal is largely controled by rain fall in the summer it is controled by rain fall and snow melt. That river(Washougal) rises an drops rapidly.My tests were just to find out if items would end up on tena bar and they did. Why did I use the time frame I did. Simple answer it was close to the time of the actual jump I tried to pick High water level conditions during this period. However the only real water level I was concerned about was the washougal. I wanted to make sur the items would make it into the columbia.I've spent years on both the rivers fishing the and playing on them. Ive observed Both these rivers for many years daily lived on them so believe me I know what these rivers can do. Diatoms will I tried to call this person Geoger is refering to several times and never could contact her. So when it comes to diatoms I'll believe what my research tells me. The discovery chanel airs a documentary on Diatoms it clearly states that each river and stream has its own diatoms and each stream is different it clrarly states that diatoms to rivers and streams are like DNA is to humans. most scientist agree. so I can't say that geogers contact is corect. What suprises me is that with if geogers experience in DNA is what he says it is why is he calling scientist and asking questions that a DNA expert should already know. Still Every time I research Diatoms I come up with the same answers that the Documentary Produced. Jerry

[skyjack71 0]

Below was part of the wish list that I posted: Note I mention John Day and then 4 wks later Jerry goes to John Day near Bend, OR.

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JO'S WISH LIST

I wish the trip to Rock Springs, WY had not ever occurred when he made his trip to Lander, WY to see an old friend - the week of the white out.

I wish I had knew Nothing of Paperlegs and why the man's name came up several times in our marriage.

I wish I had never made the trip to UT, OR and WA with Duane around the last week of Sept 1979 or the 1st week of Oct to a managers meeting with Family Life Insurance of Seattle, WA.

I wish he had NOT taken the detours he did - such as Salt Lake City where he looked up a man who was working out of the Vistors Center on the ground of the Mormon Church and I wish I could remember the name of that man who he arranged for me to take a picture of. Duane didn't want the man to see him.

I wish he had not told me about.
all of the places we passed on our route to WA before we got to Oregon, such as Lewiston, Moscow, Pullman, Palouse, Coeur'd Alene, Hayden and Spokane. I wish he had never mentioned Bitterroot Range and Missoula and the Kootnai Indians.

I wish he had not told me he could never return there because he got in trouble in the area. I understand this only if his being in that area connected him to another identity and a past unknown to me and others.

I wish he had not told me about a Dam up in the Mountains where he and the Guys worked and the Bar in Goldendale they went to.

I wish he had Not told me about The Dalles and the Old Spillaway Tavern where I now know he worked as a dishwasher.

I wish I knew why the John Day Dam was so important to him.

I wish I knew what WALLA WALLA meant to him. Why did he have Dusty tattooed on his arm?

I wish I knew how he knew were very small airport was located from Walla Walla to Seattle, WA.

I wish I knew where and what he did in Yakima and Toppenish - he spoke fondly of an Indian reservation...and the dismantling of airplanes.

I wish I knew why he knew all about the black jumpers out of Pendleton and the guys in Hood River.

I wish I knew more about the people he knew in Rufus and Biggs - Mattie Findley and Harvey Hansen.

I wish I knew how he knew so much about OR and WA. Such as Crook County and the John Day in that area.

I wish I knew how and why he told me about a small town near Redmond - a place in Prineville the guys used to go to. All of this is near Bend, OR.

I wish I knew how he knew so much about OR and the Greenhorn and Heppener and why everything seems to center around smiles and what seemed to be good memories.

I wish I knew who he knew in Maupin and Wasco...where did he go for those 5 1/2 hours on that fall morning in 1979 as I slept in at the motel East of The Dalles area, but below the dam.

I wish I knew how a man who supposedly never worked or lived (per the FBI) in WA and OR knew all of these things and these people and the places...he knew the names of the counties.

There was a news article that was in the Library about the boat missing from it moorings at the Marina. This came up missing after Jerry claimed it was not there. Yet, 2 women had gone to the library and found that article for me prior to my mentioning it to Jerry - the article "Poofed". Not all the papers had been microfished at that time. This was in 2000 or 2001 - have to look it up.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JerryThomas 0]

Shelly is a contractor she was doing resets at the triftway she also audits the sterling bank there along with Ace Hardware, and true value hardware. Check with one of her employers Acosta we stayed for 2 days. I also Have a close friend that lives in long Creek close by Ive known since 1974. We go over there every 2 weeks we also go to Burns the Dalles .Pendleton.she goes to La grande 2 times a week. the tri cities ocasionally. even eastern Idaho I go with her when she goes for 2 days or more. And before you ask the neighbor takes care of the Horses, sheep Donkey dog and rabits.When were gone. Shelly was born and raised in Camas and Washougal area She has relatives there. Next you'll be acusing Geoger of doing somthing weird when he goes to Vancouver. Will save your breath he also has a family history there. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Missing article More of your lies Jo? Just saying. Jerry

[skyjack71 0]

You will have to admit that my mentioning John Day in Oregon near Bend and your going there about 4 wks later - sounds FISHY! Perhaps co-incidence, but still very FISHY. Worth mentioning just to see how you react.

The ladies going to the library and finding the article was NOT a lie. Perhaps you need to be VERY careful how you use that word. One can misunderstand or NOT relate their information in a manner that others grasp....just as you did with your "story" about the river and the currents. Does not mean you are lieing - but, unable to communicate what you are trying to tell someone over the phone or in an email as you did above and the other person's understanding or interpretation of what you are trying to relay.

ALWAYS remember I was trying to describe something I had seen ONE time in my life...and the trip was in 1979 and I was trying to give the best details I could over a phone of this 21 yrs later. I have been called a liar now for 14 yrs by you....so tread carefully Jerry. I told NO lies and tried to tell what I knew and what I know and what I have learned.

Knew, Know and Learned - perhaps three word you need to think about.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JerryThomas 0]

Realy Fishy. Why I don't care about Duane weber or your made up stories there is nothing about Duane that would be worth investigating when it comes to you extending search for more stories to tell. Jerry

[georger 245]

Still Every time I research Diatoms I come up with the same answers that the Documentary Produced. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger You brought Diatoms up in your post. So please explain why Eileen is the only one with that explaination and why I left the message's and the calls were never returned. The message I left referenced the Diatom questions. I had the right numbers. Jerry

[georger 245]

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Geoger You brought Diatoms up in your post. So please explain why Eileen is the only one with that explaination and why I left the message's and the calls were never returned. The message I left referenced the Diatom questions. I had the right numbers. Jerry

How in hell would I know?

It might be she didn't want to mess with it?
She had already given the answer I conveyed
to you. (I knew you probably wouldn't accept
it. She may have sensed that also?)

So consult someone else. Eileen isnt the only
expert. I told you that too. Consult the people
who made the documentaries you like. ?

Throw a stick into the air and follow where it
points after it lands . . .

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger that will work. Jerry

[377 22]

Anyone ever figure out what bored the holes in the Tena Bar bills? Aquatic or land animal? I guess it could be caused by something else but to me the appearance says worm or some other animal.

Can any conclusions be drawn from the density and depth of the holes? Seems that if something eats money eventually the bills would become disintegrated if left in the midst of these creatures. The fact that only a small portion was eaten says something about the time spent amidst the borers.

Forget diatoms for a moment. Focus on borers.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

377. Geoger is the only one that I know of that can honestly answer that question. He has done the most research on this and has the expertise. Jerry

[skyjack71 0]

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Anyone ever figure out what bored the holes in the Tena Bar bills? Aquatic or land animal? I guess it could be caused by something else but to me the appearance says worm or some other animal.

Can any conclusions be drawn from the density and depth of the holes? Seems that if something eats money eventually the bills would become disintegrated if left in the midst of these creatures. The fact that only a small portion was eaten says something about the time spent amidst the borers.

Forget diatoms for a moment. Focus on borers.

377

Old papers and old documents kept in wooden boxes - have been know to have holes in them. Perhaps some kind of termite/ant or something in that family. Moths eat holes in clothes and linens. These holes are small so what could do that - dry or wet or damp or damp/dry repeatedly. Lot of dampness would cause mold - and I haven't seen reports that indicate mole or the presence of.

I think they are concentrating too much on the fact the money was found on the river bank...think about where and how the money may have been stored if the money had only been in the water for a few months, wks or even days. The concentration should be put on how the money was stored be it dry land or in the banks of the river for awhile within a container.

I do not feel that container had been in the water for 8 yrs. Maybe it was an old house that was taken out by flooding waters withing the yrs prior to the money being found in 1980? Maybe it was buried at the base of a mature tree that was pulled out to build a home on the river?
Maybe it was dislodge with heavy equipment that came in to clear land near the river to build houses. What could it have been stored in (forget the canvas bag for the time being) - maybe this would be a more productive way to figure out what those hole are and how long the money was actually in the water.

Wonder if the FBI checked out all the building permits issued for clearing and building on the river from Washougal to Tena's Bar? I frankly believe it was between the airport and the I-5 bridge. I don't think ALL of it was buried there. I think part of it was taken to another location and stored in a different manner.

The bank BAG was NOT left with the money. I cannot get out of my head "bucket" and it was NOT a milk can! This is because of something Duane said after he was on the morphine and I just discounted it as nothing more than the morphine....this was the day after his "I'm Dan Cooper" confession and at which time there had been NO morphine or any drug administered that would cause him to be delusional..

Please note to Jerry that I am in no way telling a "story" here - just trying to get some help in exploring the possibilities of the money storage prior to it being found on Tena's bar. Yes, I do base these opinions on the trip and things Duane said and things he did....but, they should NOT be discounted, because WHAT IF - Jo just happens to be right. It still would not make Weber Cooper - but, maybe solve a lot of the mystery surrounding the found money and how it was stored prior to being in the water.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JerryThomas 0]

Understood. Jerry