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normiss 798
I don't believe that was even remotely part of his intent given his comments....although it does appear that situational awareness on where the aircraft may have been was not as challenging as first thought.
winsor 236
The idea that Cooper exited anywhere near a planned location does not wash.
For one thing, the routing of an aircraft by ATC is a game of Simon Says. Regardless of what kind of reverse-psychology you think you have dialed in, the likelihood of getting a particular route +/- 5 miles is so low as to be unworthy of consideration.
In the same sense that it is almost impossible for a skilled artist to mimic a child's drawing without it being obvious to the trained eye that it was actually done by a pro, there is a big difference between a seasoned parachutist throwing in enough red herrings to confuse investigators and a clueless neophyte who really has no conception of what is involved. Cooper shows too many signs of being in the latter category.
I have made jumps out of a variety of jets, at altitudes ranging from pattern to Class A, in rain, snow and sleet, and into unlighted dropzones in total darkness carrying heavy loads. I am much better than average at aviation navigation and spotting, with decades of experience in both.
On the basis of the foregoing, when someone proposes a scenario wherein every part of the hijacking was part of a carefully crafted plan, I call bullshit.
If you have things under control, you don't lose money. The money was the whole reason for the exercise, so this is a big red flag that says that it did not go as planned.
All the speculation in this thread that comes from armchair quarterbacks is fine, but has little to do with reality. I keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong."
Blue skies,
Winsor
For one thing, the routing of an aircraft by ATC is a game of Simon Says. Regardless of what kind of reverse-psychology you think you have dialed in, the likelihood of getting a particular route +/- 5 miles is so low as to be unworthy of consideration.
In the same sense that it is almost impossible for a skilled artist to mimic a child's drawing without it being obvious to the trained eye that it was actually done by a pro, there is a big difference between a seasoned parachutist throwing in enough red herrings to confuse investigators and a clueless neophyte who really has no conception of what is involved. Cooper shows too many signs of being in the latter category.
I have made jumps out of a variety of jets, at altitudes ranging from pattern to Class A, in rain, snow and sleet, and into unlighted dropzones in total darkness carrying heavy loads. I am much better than average at aviation navigation and spotting, with decades of experience in both.
On the basis of the foregoing, when someone proposes a scenario wherein every part of the hijacking was part of a carefully crafted plan, I call bullshit.
If you have things under control, you don't lose money. The money was the whole reason for the exercise, so this is a big red flag that says that it did not go as planned.
All the speculation in this thread that comes from armchair quarterbacks is fine, but has little to do with reality. I keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong."
Blue skies,
Winsor
377 22
Winsor is right, but he and even Quade recognize that this forum intertwines investigation with fun and extreme speculation. Outlandish theories are accepted and even encouraged to some degree. We inevitably assign order to chaos in the process of reverse engineering Cooper's jump. Cooper's jump was likely extremely chaotic. If he had plans they didn't work out 100% or the money would never have been found (Winsor's point). It almost had to be chaotic given the circumstances: night, cold, rain, imprecise location info, unfamiliar gear, improvised money containment, fast exit , unsleeved canopy, fear, etc etc.
But what if??? Those what ifs are fun and nobody has positively ruled them out. Remember, NONE of the big stuff has been found, no body, no gear. We cannot rule out that Cooper walked away alive.
If Cooper executed a farmland jump, then his chances of survival increase. Sluggo has given a way that it might have happened, however unlikely.
Jumpship navigation isnt a trivial exercise once you are off DZ. To add to the problem, Cooper did not have command of the aircraft course athough Sluggo says he might have cleverly influenced it to suit his needs by specifying a maximum altitude and a particular destination.
In 1967, a surplus B 25 with VOR gear and in radio contact with ATC accidently dropped a load of jumpers over over Lake Erie, far from shore. Most drowned. It was cloudy. Mistakes were made by the pilot and by ATC. Stuff happens when you jump in bad weather and over unfamiliar locations. Bad stuff.
There is a principal used in scientific inquiry called Occam's Razor. Wikipedia describes it as follows:
"All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities."
Applying Occam, the likeliest outcome is that Cooper went in and his body has not been found. Everything else takes more assumptions. I am sure others disagree and I welcome the oncoming backlash/dialog.
But what if??? Those what ifs are fun and nobody has positively ruled them out. Remember, NONE of the big stuff has been found, no body, no gear. We cannot rule out that Cooper walked away alive.
If Cooper executed a farmland jump, then his chances of survival increase. Sluggo has given a way that it might have happened, however unlikely.
Jumpship navigation isnt a trivial exercise once you are off DZ. To add to the problem, Cooper did not have command of the aircraft course athough Sluggo says he might have cleverly influenced it to suit his needs by specifying a maximum altitude and a particular destination.
In 1967, a surplus B 25 with VOR gear and in radio contact with ATC accidently dropped a load of jumpers over over Lake Erie, far from shore. Most drowned. It was cloudy. Mistakes were made by the pilot and by ATC. Stuff happens when you jump in bad weather and over unfamiliar locations. Bad stuff.
There is a principal used in scientific inquiry called Occam's Razor. Wikipedia describes it as follows:
"All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities."
Applying Occam, the likeliest outcome is that Cooper went in and his body has not been found. Everything else takes more assumptions. I am sure others disagree and I welcome the oncoming backlash/dialog.
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Albert18 0
Quote
I have made enough jumps out of a variety of jets, at altitudes ranging from pattern to Class A, in rain, snow and sleet, and into unlighted dropzones in total darkness carrying heavy loads. I am much better than average at aviation navigation and spotting, with decades of experience in both.
Isn't the fact you are on this forum posting mean you survived those jumps.
This info tells me what?
pirana 0
QuoteI keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong."
Blue skies,
Winsor
Pretty sure that was Wolfgang Pauli.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
winsor 236
QuoteQuote
I have made enough jumps out of a variety of jets, at altitudes ranging from pattern to Class A, in rain, snow and sleet, and into unlighted dropzones in total darkness carrying heavy loads. I am much better than average at aviation navigation and spotting, with decades of experience in both.
Isn't the fact you are on this forum posting mean you survived those jumps.
This info tells me what?
Simply that I've been there, done that, and don't buy most of the scenarios put forth in this forum.
It forms the basis for my doubting to the extreme that Cooper exited the aircraft anywhere near a preplanned location, for one thing. It also gives me reason to conclude that Cooper had no idea of what he was up against.
Thousands of aviators made their first jumps from stricken aircraft and survived, some more banged up than others. The number of residents in the Luftstalag system, the folks that survived the experience. was in the six digits, so getting to the ground in one piece was a viable option.
When you get to the part of putting people jumping intentionally with gear into a predetermined location, the record becomes much spottier. With all the training, planning, Pathfinders and what have you, the tendency - often as not - is to drop people all over hell and creation.
For someone to successfully execute the jump and coordinate with either a support person on the ground or waiting transportation is beyond unlikely.
There is the infinitesimal chance that he lost some or all of the money, slinked away, and never let on that he had been behind this adventure.
In any event, I don't buy the claims of the spouse of the OP.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Winsor,
Thank you for your response (ouch). I asked for critical assessment and I got it.
[Quote] For one thing, the routing of an aircraft by ATC is a game of Simon Says. Regardless of what kind of reverse-psychology you think you have dialed in, the likelihood of getting a particular route +/- 5 miles is so low as to be unworthy of consideration. [/Quote]
Are you sure? If we can locate an Air Traffic Controller, let’s see what 2-digit Victor Airway he/she will assign, given the Cooper parameters. If they give anything other than V-23, I’ll stand corrected. (As I said earlier, I want to be right, not just right in my mind.) I welcome help from active or past ATCs.
[Quote] In the same sense that it is almost impossible for a skilled artist to mimic a child's drawing without it being obvious to the trained eye that it was actually done by a pro, there is a big difference between a seasoned parachutist throwing in enough red herrings to confuse investigators and a clueless neophyte who really has no conception of what is involved. Cooper shows too many signs of being in the latter category. [/Quote]
While I’m totally neutral on your conclusion (concerning Coopers skill level), I love the analogy. I hope it isn’t original, because I will probably use it in some of my training.
[Quote] If you have things under control, you don't lose money. The money was the whole reason for the exercise, so this is a big red flag that says that it did not go as planned. [/Quote]
I agree, things probably did not go as planned. But, how can you say the money was the “reason for the exercise”, especially, in view of the; “I just have a grudge” statement from Cooper to Mucklow?
[Quote] All the speculation in this thread that comes from armchair quarterbacks is fine, but has little to do with reality. I keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong." [/Quote]
Thanks for the segue. Odd you should mention Heisenberg and armchair quarterbacks in the same sentence. If you are familiar with Heisenberg, then surely you are familiar with his “uncertainty principle” and it’s relationship to Erwin Schrödinger’s ”cat analogy”.
Well, Winsor, I believe since you, nor I, nor anyone on this board was there (unless someone on this board is Cooper), then we are all armchair quarterbacks. And just like Heisenberg, the more we accept particular aspect/parameter in this case, the less we know about the reality of the case. So, we all just assign a reality in which we are comfortable. I have mine and you have yours.
Oh, and about Schrödinger’s cat, unless you have found the body, as far as Schrödinger is concerned, just like the cat in the box, Cooper is dead AND Cooper is alive.
Thanks for the criticism, really!
Sluggo_Monster, Armchair Quarterback
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NORJAK Forum
Thank you for your response (ouch). I asked for critical assessment and I got it.
[Quote] For one thing, the routing of an aircraft by ATC is a game of Simon Says. Regardless of what kind of reverse-psychology you think you have dialed in, the likelihood of getting a particular route +/- 5 miles is so low as to be unworthy of consideration. [/Quote]
Are you sure? If we can locate an Air Traffic Controller, let’s see what 2-digit Victor Airway he/she will assign, given the Cooper parameters. If they give anything other than V-23, I’ll stand corrected. (As I said earlier, I want to be right, not just right in my mind.) I welcome help from active or past ATCs.
[Quote] In the same sense that it is almost impossible for a skilled artist to mimic a child's drawing without it being obvious to the trained eye that it was actually done by a pro, there is a big difference between a seasoned parachutist throwing in enough red herrings to confuse investigators and a clueless neophyte who really has no conception of what is involved. Cooper shows too many signs of being in the latter category. [/Quote]
While I’m totally neutral on your conclusion (concerning Coopers skill level), I love the analogy. I hope it isn’t original, because I will probably use it in some of my training.
[Quote] If you have things under control, you don't lose money. The money was the whole reason for the exercise, so this is a big red flag that says that it did not go as planned. [/Quote]
I agree, things probably did not go as planned. But, how can you say the money was the “reason for the exercise”, especially, in view of the; “I just have a grudge” statement from Cooper to Mucklow?
[Quote] All the speculation in this thread that comes from armchair quarterbacks is fine, but has little to do with reality. I keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong." [/Quote]
Thanks for the segue. Odd you should mention Heisenberg and armchair quarterbacks in the same sentence. If you are familiar with Heisenberg, then surely you are familiar with his “uncertainty principle” and it’s relationship to Erwin Schrödinger’s ”cat analogy”.
Well, Winsor, I believe since you, nor I, nor anyone on this board was there (unless someone on this board is Cooper), then we are all armchair quarterbacks. And just like Heisenberg, the more we accept particular aspect/parameter in this case, the less we know about the reality of the case. So, we all just assign a reality in which we are comfortable. I have mine and you have yours.
Oh, and about Schrödinger’s cat, unless you have found the body, as far as Schrödinger is concerned, just like the cat in the box, Cooper is dead AND Cooper is alive.
Thanks for the criticism, really!
Sluggo_Monster, Armchair Quarterback
Web Page
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NORJAK Forum
winsor 236
QuoteQuoteI keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong."
Blue skies,
Winsor
Pretty sure that was Wolfgang Pauli.
Bingo. At least I had the right category of Physicists in mind....
Blue skies,
Winsor
[reply
Jo,
Were Duane and McCoy a team? Was "Chuck " tied to the team? Chuck was from VA ow W VA too
How can anyone get that statement out of the following PRIVATE EMAIL..
........................
no possible connection?? open your eyes
====================================
JO, you initially tried to connect duane with skydivers, now you dont want this to happen. Why? I thinkin you only want duane to be "cooper" even if he may have been the assistant. why would you avoid the relationship of duane with other divers? this is the connection you were looking for... who is chuck
Anyone know a Chuck from the east coast?? VA?
...and from the past???
Anyone think there is a connection between duane and McCoy?
Jo, dont take me wrong, im exploring like you are
Hugs
Chuck
Jo,
Were Duane and McCoy a team? Was "Chuck " tied to the team? Chuck was from VA ow W VA too
How can anyone get that statement out of the following PRIVATE EMAIL..
........................
no possible connection?? open your eyes
====================================
JO, you initially tried to connect duane with skydivers, now you dont want this to happen. Why? I thinkin you only want duane to be "cooper" even if he may have been the assistant. why would you avoid the relationship of duane with other divers? this is the connection you were looking for... who is chuck
Anyone know a Chuck from the east coast?? VA?
...and from the past???
Anyone think there is a connection between duane and McCoy?
Jo, dont take me wrong, im exploring like you are
Hugs
Chuck
QuoteI keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong."
Great Posts from some very intelligent individuals..I feel like a fifth grade student in a college classroom. Overwhelmed, but the humor that went with it was absolutely the greatest - I am sitting here laughing after reading these posts. Thank You.
Low_pull, PLEASE get off of the subject of Chuck. I will say one more time, Duane did not meet him until "84 and he was all of 30 yrs old.
You remind me of an antagonistic overbearing poster called DBCooperCatcher from the Unsolved Mysteries forum, because you post like him and your PM's use the same syntax and typing style. Catcher was - the man who has accused one individual of being Cooper after he spent endless months in a forum saying McCoy was Cooper.
His posts were endless gibberish contributing nonething of value and being an antagonist was his only accomplishment. He became the worm in the apple ...and you know what was done with the apple?
It got tossed in the garbage.
nigel99 466
QuoteSimply that I've been there, done that, and don't buy most of the scenarios put forth in this forum.
Does this admission mean that we no longer need to question who Cooper was, but ask you how you pulled it off?
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.
winsor 236
QuoteQuoteSimply that I've been there, done that, and don't buy most of the scenarios put forth in this forum.
Does this admission mean that we no longer need to question who Cooper was, but ask you how you pulled it off?
All right, so I screwed up and didn't manage to keep the money.
Had I managed to hang on to $200k and invest it wisely, I could have funded a Major Motion Picture about the adventure by now.
Luckily, I was able to fabricate an alibi about being in Germany (with a "Parachutist" job description) at the time. I thought it was pretty clever.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Orange1 0
QuoteAnyone think there is a connection between duane and McCoy?
I certainly don't think it's any more far fetched than a number of other things that have been postulated here. And it wouldn't be the first time someone has been selective about choosing to see connections!
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
When I re-read my last post (#217) it seemed to not have the tone I was shooting for.
I want to state to all posters and to winsor in particular, “I welcome disagreement”. If we are ever going to make sense of the Northwest Flight 305 November 24, 1971 hijacking, we have to speculate (or postulate) and allow for critical analysis of the post.
I hope I didn’t come across as a smart-ss, angry, or frustrated. The history of this subject on this site makes me want to be sure that the “tone” of my posts does not get misunderstood.
Thanx,
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
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NORJAK Forum
I want to state to all posters and to winsor in particular, “I welcome disagreement”. If we are ever going to make sense of the Northwest Flight 305 November 24, 1971 hijacking, we have to speculate (or postulate) and allow for critical analysis of the post.
I hope I didn’t come across as a smart-ss, angry, or frustrated. The history of this subject on this site makes me want to be sure that the “tone” of my posts does not get misunderstood.
Thanx,
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
As SafecrackerPLF was well aware, I am of the belief that there are very few (if any) facts in the Northwest Flight 305 hijacking of November 24th, 1971. (Notice I avoided the “C” word.) The closest things to “facts” we have are the statements made by the FBI (in general), Himmelsbach and Carr (specifically). I will hereafter refer to them as “Facts”.
So I thought it would be helpful to list the things that we all can agree on as facts. Here they are:
1. Someone calling himself Dan Cooper bought a ticket and then boarded Flight 305.
2. This “Dan Cooper” gave the stewardess (Cabin Attendant for the PC Police) a note saying he had a bomb and showed her something that “In the left corner had 8 long sticks of about 6 inches long and 1 inch in diameter there were two rows of them. Then a wire out of there. Then a batt lite (sic, probably like) a flashlight batt only as sthik (sic, probably thick) as my arm and eight inches long”. [From RTTY or TTY Log Page 104]
3. He asked for two front chutes and two back chutes and $200,000 cash, without designating bill size.
4. This “Dan Cooper” released all passengers at SEA and kept all but one crew member on board.
5. He received two main chutes and two reserve chutes (one of which was unusable).
6. He demanded the plane get airborne before ATC issued a clearance. Or possibly a clearance to Sacramento was issued.
7. He cut up one chute (a reserve) and used the parts to wrap the money and secure it to his body (or the rig).
8. He may have jumped from the plane at 2011 PST (based on “pressure bump”) or as late as 2015 PST. (Note 2011 would be about 5 NM North of the BTG VOR and 2015 would be about 2.5 SW of the BTG VOR. [Based on Flight Tracking Strip (Radar based) supplied by the FBI].
9. The FBI’s original assumed Drop Zone was re-assessed (in the last 5 years) and has been moved some 39 NM south.
10. The plane continued (with aft stairs still lowered) to Reno, NV where it landed safely. Cooper was not onboard.
11. On February 10, 1980, three packs of $20 dollar bills totaling $5,800 were found by an 8 year old boy who was digging along the Columbia River at Tena Bar, about 3 NM NE of where the flight (presumably without Dan Cooper) crossed the Columbia River.
12. His body was never reported found.
Have I left out anything that can be considered a “fact” in this case?
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
So I thought it would be helpful to list the things that we all can agree on as facts. Here they are:
1. Someone calling himself Dan Cooper bought a ticket and then boarded Flight 305.
2. This “Dan Cooper” gave the stewardess (Cabin Attendant for the PC Police) a note saying he had a bomb and showed her something that “In the left corner had 8 long sticks of about 6 inches long and 1 inch in diameter there were two rows of them. Then a wire out of there. Then a batt lite (sic, probably like) a flashlight batt only as sthik (sic, probably thick) as my arm and eight inches long”. [From RTTY or TTY Log Page 104]
3. He asked for two front chutes and two back chutes and $200,000 cash, without designating bill size.
4. This “Dan Cooper” released all passengers at SEA and kept all but one crew member on board.
5. He received two main chutes and two reserve chutes (one of which was unusable).
6. He demanded the plane get airborne before ATC issued a clearance. Or possibly a clearance to Sacramento was issued.
7. He cut up one chute (a reserve) and used the parts to wrap the money and secure it to his body (or the rig).
8. He may have jumped from the plane at 2011 PST (based on “pressure bump”) or as late as 2015 PST. (Note 2011 would be about 5 NM North of the BTG VOR and 2015 would be about 2.5 SW of the BTG VOR. [Based on Flight Tracking Strip (Radar based) supplied by the FBI].
9. The FBI’s original assumed Drop Zone was re-assessed (in the last 5 years) and has been moved some 39 NM south.
10. The plane continued (with aft stairs still lowered) to Reno, NV where it landed safely. Cooper was not onboard.
11. On February 10, 1980, three packs of $20 dollar bills totaling $5,800 were found by an 8 year old boy who was digging along the Columbia River at Tena Bar, about 3 NM NE of where the flight (presumably without Dan Cooper) crossed the Columbia River.
12. His body was never reported found.
Have I left out anything that can be considered a “fact” in this case?
Sluggo_Monster
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NORJAK Forum
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