DB Cooper

[georger 247]

NEW QUESTION:

Ckret, something in the back of my mind - doesnt need an immediate answer if one is even possible.

NO ACCENT. When did Tina and Flo mean?
No foreign accent. No US regional accent? Have
you any idea what they meant by no accent.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

one last thought for the day.
I said I had abandoned all "money plant" ideas.

But that was when I was thinking the DZ was way east of the black line flight path I have.

If instead, the landing site is near Vancouver Lake/Shilapoo Lake as I showed in a couple of possibilities, then a post-hijack plant by Cooper "right at the shore of the Columbia" might still have been a rational plan for a "cooper's dead in the drink" scenario.

In that case, there's no story needed about Cooper needing to know about bump prediction. He just knows roughly where he jumped, and he throws some bundles where he knows they will be found close to the Columbia.

I always wondered whether he might have done this close to Agent H's retirement to get case closure.

My theory was always "if money plant, then Cooper's not a deadbeat". Cause a deadbeat wouldn't care about getting caught in the future. But someone who was in a screwed-up mental state, then had his life turn around (so no more crime) might stress about getting caught and do a later money plant, thinking that would resolve the case...it's the kind of thinking an older, more nervous man might have, who no longer can live with the constant stress of being found out.

But it actually just makes the situation worse. But doing it near Agent H's retirement almost guarantees little investigation, because it's around the time of a handoff to a new agent.
So maybe clever, maybe not.

Maybe there's no money plant and it's just some dropped bundles. Who knows. Lots of equally possible scenarios, I suppose.

That's what hooks us all in I guess, everyone can do a scenario!

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

The 727 had 3 flap options (discussed at length in other groups): 5, 15, and 25 degrees, if I am correct. 15 degrees goes automatically with 160-170 kts and gear down and BELOW 10,000ft which was Cooper's original request. Regardless of who requested 15 degrees, 15 degrees is the only option based on the other flight parameters. All Cooper had to do was request configs for a bailout - the rest follows. (This has been discussed at length in other forums).

NOT TRUE:

The 727-100 has the following Flap settings:
727-100 HIGH LIFT DEVICES
Flap positions are: UP 2, 5, 15, 20, 25, 30, and 40 with gates at the 2 and 25
positions. 5,15,25 Normally T-O and 30, 15, 5, Normal Landing.

At 140,000 lbs. V sub Ref for landing with 15 degrees flaps is: 142 knots
At 140,000 lbs. V sub Ref for Take-off with 15 degrees flaps is: 136 knots.

As you see these values are much lower that 160 – 170 knots being flown by 305.

Air Speed with any flap setting is controlled by Power (Throttle) setting, Pitch setting, and Company and Airport procedures/policy.

When making these statements, why don’t you look it up and verify the voracity, or consult an expert. It will keep people from chasing apparitions down rabbit holes. It may have been discussed on another forum, but that doesn’t make it true.

Maybe we should have a motto: “The truth first, then speculation.”

BTW: For planning purposes, Boeing estimates total turnaround time (Place stairs, position equipment, deplane passengers, unload baggage, fuel airplane, service galley, service water, service lavatories, clean cabin, clean aft entry, load baggage, board passengers, and clear area and start engines) for 28 first class and 66 tourist class passengers as 26 minutes. (about 10 min of which is re-fueling at 600 gpm).

If Cooper knew this, he was reasonable to expect to deplane the passengers and re-fuel in 15 min.

If he believed this he was delusional.
Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

We have experts here in several fields of study and your doing great work, but I think you are stifling yourself by overlaying unrealistic perceptions of criminal behavior generated by mass media. This, in fact, has become a real problem in criminal trials. Juries have a very unreal expectations that now have to be addressed in opening statements. Maybe the same thing has happened here.

Only a look in the mirror can answer that (ok, i agree, thats a cheesy statement but there is something to it)

Okay... Point well taken.

So let's make a deal. Give me the same information you have, I will ply my craft, and I will defer to your knowledge of "Normal" criminal behavior. Otherwise, all I have to apply MY skill to, is rumors, inaccurate (and sometimes downright fictional) media accounts, and what someone said on a forum. Otherwise, we can't work as a team. You see the BIG Picture, and I have to look theough a slit in the door.

And, just as a point of fact, I've don't expose myself to the "mass media." I don't read accounts of crimes, (speciffically NORJAK), I don't watch crime shows on TV (or so called Reality shows). I don't watch crime movies. And how do you know I am not a criminal?

Sluggo

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

The posts on this board in the last 24 hours have gone in a direction that I do not wish to travel. (Too much speculation that isn’t fact based.) This is the reason I have never read books about NORJAK)

Anyone wishing to give me information, ask my advice, or give me advice, please e-mail me at the e-mail address on my web site.

Thanks,
Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Ckret 0]

Sluggo,

WTF are you talking about, Ta Ta for now. Look at the beating I take in this forum, its nonstop from all directions. If the forum isn't going in the direction you want guide it there. Who knows what will shake out from a bit of discussion (as long as it is respectful.) What questions am I not answering? I know you have been waiting for the map but that map, I am sure, is available on line. I will get it to you on Monday.

TA TA for now my ass, if I have to take it so do you. Get your big redneck a$% back in here and those fingers a-tappin By-the-way, I have no idea if Sluggo identifies with the term redneck and i mean it as a term of endearment.

[Ckret 0]

Georger,

Reference to the Simons interview, I don't think it went like that, Ill dig it up on Monday. Also, once Schaffner went into the cockpit the Scott didn't let her go back until they landed in Seattle.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

NO ACCENT. When did Tina and Flo mean?
No foreign accent. No US regional accent? Have
you any idea what they meant by no accent.

In that regards, what about slang or the lack there of?

I can literally tell what neighborhood of the city someone lives in due to what slang they use or don't use and my city only has 70,000 people.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[377 22]

Quote

Sluggo,

WTF are you talking about, Ta Ta for now. Look at the beating I take in this forum, its nonstop from all directions. /reply]

Sluggo will be back. Nobody has given him a beating lately. Ckret has been an online punching bag for a few posters, but the overall courtesy on this forum has gone way up... don't you all agree?

And no, I don't want to give Quade any credit for it. I do not want to admit that exhile/banning/ostracism or scarlet letters work, even if there is evidence that they do.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

• Quote

[Canopus 0]

This particular case will NEVER be solved. Time was ripe between '71-75, but the poor FBI never showed its medal. Their "best" is still alive and to this day showcases his "intellect" in every interview he gives.

Fun it is to speculate, but unfortunately we'll never know who did it. We can very certainly deduce who did NOT do it and that's not difficult, there are just too many gold diggers out there with an agenda.

So while this forum is fun, I doubt we'll ever solve this case. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I'll take my Vegas odds and live with them.

[Ckret 0]

No accents or slang terms were reported by the witnesses.

[Ckret 0]

Shame on you Canopus, whats wrong with U people. Everyone take the night off, drinks on me.

[happythoughts 0]

I read through the posts and I can't see a resolution on the shoe.

Did the shoe turn out to be just a story?
Found in an evidence box?
Collected in a box, but discarded a long time ago?

[Canopus 0]

Ckret,

When you solve this one, then please arrange for egg
on my face! Until then, I'm going to enjoy holding
my breath!

[Ckret 0]

Your going to pass out holding your breath like that. Could be dangerous, i suggest you just breath really shallow, you'll still get your point across without falling over.

[Ckret 0]

Happythoughts (i like the name)

I'll check on the shoes and see what I can dig up

[snowmman 3]

Ok I know I do too much research, but at the time of the shoe theory, I was musing whether to post this thought, but held back at the time. I had posted it in another forum when I was musing about experts claiming to have knowledge of the layering of dredge spoils, or floating things.

A link and quotes from an expert who claims that right feet and left feet from human bodies in the ocean tend to collect on the same but different beaches. I know I'm not an expert on how things float and collect in rivers. This should reinforce that few people are without some study/experiments/data.

A fourth foot has been discovered off Canada's Pacific coast
May 23, 2008
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/364446_feet24.html

VANCOUVER, British Columbia: For the fourth time in less than a year, a right human foot has been found off one of four different islands in the Strait of Georgia in British Columbia.
...
Ebbesmeyer said it may not be a coincidence they were found in the same area. He said left foot wear and right foot wear often tend to wash up at different times at different places because they float differently.
He added that there are beaches that collect mostly rights and other beaches that collect mostly lefts because the winds or currents sort out left and right foot wear.[email]

[Ckret 0]

Snowmman,

Are you pulling my feets on this, you made that up didn't you

[snowmman 3]

I was having trouble with the url, but the url should be fine
up there now. I didn't think it was useful info at the time.

[Canopus 0]

Quote

Your going to pass out holding your breath like that. Could be dangerous, i suggest you just breath really shallow, you'll still get your point across without falling over.

I suspect you mean "you're" and "breathe". Mmmm Hmmm "typos" (quotes intended) aside, I'm sure you'll do your best. Best of luck!

[georger 247]

Quote

good detail, thanks georger.
Cooper apparently knew about sky marshals, since he mentioned it on the ground.

I wonder if he was giving the glare to ascertain if there were any sky marshalls on the flight...I think it was 377 who made a joke about how their cheap shoes are always a giveaway.

That's how dogs do it. start with the glare and see what reaction they get.

____________________________________________

I dont think sky marshals had anything to do with
this. It was just Cooper feeling vulnerable and being
aggressive when he should have been keeping a very low profile not to attract attention. The hijacking was
barely 10 minutes old when this happened.

Maybe Ckret can shed some light on this.

Simons and his wife recounted this VERY CLEARLY
after the fact. (They could hardly stop talking about
it because they were upset). It shows Cooper's
aggressive side and his vulnerability in the face of
poor judgement at the very time he needed to be
focusing and mind his manners.

This is one of the 'little events' that helped form
Himmeslbach's appraisal of Cooper, trying to look
underneath to see the real Cooper.

[georger 247]

NOT TRUE:

The 727-100 has the following Flap settings:
727-100 HIGH LIFT DEVICES
Flap positions are: UP 2, 5, 15, 20, 25, 30, and 40 with gates at the 2 and 25
positions. 5,15,25 Normally T-O and 30, 15, 5, Normal Landing.

At 140,000 lbs. V sub Ref for landing with 15 degrees flaps is: 142 knots
At 140,000 lbs. V sub Ref for Take-off with 15 degrees flaps is: 136 knots.

As you see these values are much lower that 160 – 170 knots being flown by 305.

---------------------------------------------------

Correction noted and welcomed. The expert! in the
other forum was wrong then.

---------------------------------------------------






BTW: For planning purposes, Boeing estimates total turnaround time (Place stairs, position equipment, deplane passengers, unload baggage, fuel airplane, service galley, service water, service lavatories, clean cabin, clean aft entry, load baggage, board passengers, and clear area and start engines) for 28 first class and 66 tourist class passengers as 26 minutes. (about 10 min of which is re-fueling at 600 gpm).

If Cooper knew this, he was reasonable to expect to deplane the passengers and re-fuel in 15 min.

If he believed this he was delusional.
---------------------------------------------------

This is informative. Then maybe he did know.

Except the figures you cite would be for a normal
hookup in a standard location at the airport. In this
case everything got bogged down and the airport even
closed for a time, if I read the transcript correctly.

Was there some reason why things didn't work normally (like a hijacking)

[georger 247]

Quote

The posts on this board in the last 24 hours have gone in a direction that I do not wish to travel. (Too much speculation that isn’t fact based.) This is the reason I have never read books about NORJAK)

Anyone wishing to give me information, ask my advice, or give me advice, please e-mail me at the e-mail address on my web site.

Thanks,
Sluggo_Monster

Well I think you mean me. I apologise if I am posting
things as fact or engaging in speculation when I probably should be asking questions or putting things
in the form: "Is it true that . . . ".

That might be more agreeable to you and I am willing
to do it that way.

I think it is very important we all work together here.

Sincerely,
George

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

NO ACCENT. When did Tina and Flo mean?
No foreign accent. No US regional accent? Have
you any idea what they meant by no accent.

In that regards, what about slang or the lack there of?

I can literally tell what neighborhood of the city someone lives in due to what slang they use or don't use and my city only has 70,000 people.

Your above is what I was getting at. We all have some
kind of regional accent. Was Cooper's accent the same
as Mucklow's and Schaffner's whatever that was? It
goes to his origins. (Northwest, Central US, Southern,
East Coast, and the like).

[377 22]

Quote

Sluggster, buddy!!!, this aint CSI or a movie, Cooper is real, with real human factors added in. The big problem here, has been and will continue to be is lack of experience interacting with human motives as they deal with criminal intent. It seems most on here, when commenting on Cooper the person, are relying on what they have experienced in the movies on TV or how they (given what they have read and seen on tv) would pull it off. Reality is always a let down, the dream is always better.

When one of my bank robbers gets on a lucky streak and racks up 10 or more robberies I am convinced he is doing in-depth planning. I analyze the robberies and even come up with profiles i think fit best. Every time we catch them i am disappointed to find they just winged it. The same level of thought goes into the crime as the others that got caught on robbery one.

Sluggo, and anyone else, what real life experience do you have in working with criminals? How they operate, what motivates them..... How much is what you see in the movies and on TV influencing your opinions on Cooper?

We have experts here in several fields of study and your doing great work, but I think you are stifling yourself by overlaying unrealistic perceptions of criminal behavior generated by mass media. This, in fact, has become a real problem in criminal trials. Juries have a very unreal expectations that now have to be addressed in opening statements. Maybe the same thing has happened here.

Only a look in the mirror can answer that (ok, i agree, thats a cheesy statement but there is something to it)

I did an internship in the public defenders office and did several years of defense work afterwards. I got to where I could spot a lot of ex cons just by how they held themselves out in public. I started to figure that I was pretty sharp about the "criminal mind."

An Oakland cop told me something that made me re-think my attitude: "Don't go around thinking you have criminals figured out. You only see the stupid ones who get caught."

Cops were on the street and in the hoods. They saw a much larger slice of the pie.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.