jonstark 8
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osprey AND pegasus=knock offs of the para flite cruiseair/cruiselite. titan = knock off of para flite XL Cloud
piper17 1
It is obvious to me that you really don't know what you are talking about.
Please examine the dimensions of the XL Cloud and the Titan - wing span, chord, airfoil, line trim, construction methods etc. If you do that, you will find virtually NO similarities. About the only thing they share is the F-111 material and dacron lines...which ALL manufacturers were using at the time
The Merlin...which Para-Flite canopy was this a knock-off of????
While my memory is a little faded after all these years, the Pegasus preceded the Cruisair rather than the other way around. The Osprey was Pioneer's take on an all-around/RW oriented canopy that would address the needs of the largest segment of the jumping population of the time. The Merlin appealed to a much smaller segment of the market. The Osprey was targeted directly at the Pegasus as that was the canopy that was taking the largest share of the market...not the Cruisair.
I'd be interested in hearing what your background is in the development and marketing of parachutes in the 70s and 80s that makes you such an "authority" on the subject.
Maybe we can get Elek to join in the conversation. I'm sure he would have some opinions on the subject as well.
Please examine the dimensions of the XL Cloud and the Titan - wing span, chord, airfoil, line trim, construction methods etc. If you do that, you will find virtually NO similarities. About the only thing they share is the F-111 material and dacron lines...which ALL manufacturers were using at the time
The Merlin...which Para-Flite canopy was this a knock-off of????
While my memory is a little faded after all these years, the Pegasus preceded the Cruisair rather than the other way around. The Osprey was Pioneer's take on an all-around/RW oriented canopy that would address the needs of the largest segment of the jumping population of the time. The Merlin appealed to a much smaller segment of the market. The Osprey was targeted directly at the Pegasus as that was the canopy that was taking the largest share of the market...not the Cruisair.
I'd be interested in hearing what your background is in the development and marketing of parachutes in the 70s and 80s that makes you such an "authority" on the subject.
Maybe we can get Elek to join in the conversation. I'm sure he would have some opinions on the subject as well.
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling
Gene03 0
I'll jump into the fray.
Who is the other jumper in the picture and what dropzone was the picture taken at?
...And whose hair is that on the scan?
Who is the other jumper in the picture and what dropzone was the picture taken at?
...And whose hair is that on the scan?
“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.
Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)
Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)
Quoteosprey AND pegasus=knock offs of the para flite cruiseair/cruiselite. titan = knock off of para flite XL Cloud
http://books.google.com/books?id=BKTuTXrXQu0C&pg=PA267&lpg=PA267&dq=%22XL+Cloud++%22&source=web&ots=n_mjDs8R2q&sig=IAe5sE8mJ_QaLw_Qvy87hzNPlNE#PPA250,M1
Pages 267 through 279 give a fairly good history.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
pchapman 279
QuoteOkay, now you have me fired up. The ONLY canopy that Pioneer produced that was a knock-off of a Para-Flite canopy was the original Viking.
[...]
The Merlin was, as far as I know, the only three-line group canopy ever made and was very successful for Pioneer.
Yeah we have to distinguish between canopies that are knock-offs in terms of "measuring all dimensions of the competitor's canopy and then tweaking", vs. just doing something similar for a similar market after the other guy started to be successful with a design. The latter might be termed a knock-off in casual conversation, but not be one in a stricter and more correct engineering & construction sense.
And as an footnote to piper17's interesting history, I will note that the Evolution canopy also had only 3 line groups (A,B,C).... and it was made by Para Flite, although later than the other canopies under discussion.
(Lest any one think I'm anti-Pioneer, my only canopy until '02 was a Titan and I jump a Mk I PC too.)
Beatnik 2
QuoteThe Merlin was, as far as I know, the only three-line group canopy ever made and was very successful for Pioneer.
The Para-Sled was another and I think the first three-line group canopy produced circa 1972.
riggerrob 643
Parachutes de France also built a few canopies (i.e. SOS 190 reserve) with only three line groups (A, B & C) ... ignoring steering lines.
I also vaguely remember some GQ canopies (Units?) only having three line groups.
I also vaguely remember some GQ canopies (Units?) only having three line groups.
BASE841 3
My first ram air canopy, a GQ Security-made X-210 main, had three line groups. That confused me a bit when I was reading a general packing guide and it got to the "D" line group. "What D lines!? Is there supposed to be something between my Cs and the brake lines?" 
javelin1 0
para flite's strato flyer was the first one i ever saw (1977) with just 3 line groups
I think Bill Newcomb was the one that stirred the stuff this time by saying Pioneer's stuff was all knock-off of Paraflight gear. I was sticking up for Jim's defense of Pioneer's canopies with my experiences under them and my consumer's perspective. Now THAT is trivial. No apologies. It's fun to kick a few hornets' nests around here.
jon
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