Canopy with line twists under 1000 ft.

[rendezvous 0]

If you have a canopy with line twists under 1000 ft do you cut it away, do you untwist or do you simply pull the reserve. This is assuming it's not spinning. Actually would like the opinions on the case when it's spinning too. I'm a beginner so I'm not under high performance chutes and high wing loadings.

[billvon 2,991]

>If you have a canopy with line twists under 1000 ft do you cut it away, do you
> untwist or do you simply pull the reserve. This is assuming it's not spinning.
> Actually would like the opinions on the case when it's spinning too. I'm a
> beginner so I'm not under high performance chutes and high wing loadings.
If you think it will untwist in the next 500 feet, and you've never cut away before, and you think the riser channels might be involved in the line twists, and you have some control over it (i.e. you can reach above the twists and get to the risers, brakes or A lines) then you might want to keep it.
If you _have_ cut away before, and the canopy isn't going to untwist in time, and you have no control over its heading, and the area directly below you is safe to land in, I'd say get rid of it immediately.
Both the answers above are incomplete of course. It's like asking if you should cut away from an unlandable canopy at 500 feet. A better question might be why you got to 500 feet with an unlandable canopy in the first place. In general, you should know by 1500-2000 feet if you can land the canopy, and if not, cut away and open your reserve immediately. If you get to 1800 feet and you still haven't cleared up the line twists, that's a much better place to chop it. If you wait another 30 seconds before dealing with it, shame on you.
-bill von

[Kelly 0]

i'm not qualified to tell you what to do but i will tell you one thing not to do via some personal experience:
friend and i are both low timers (less than 50 jumps at the time). planning to do a 2way RW. clouds roll in and we have to go down to 6'500 feet. we decide to do solos but dump a little higher and fly around each other under canopy. So we do our solo freefalls and are under canopy. I'm chasing him around good distance away and everything.. well, at about 2,000 feet (me) and approximately 1,200 -1,500 (him) he initiated a deep/fast toggle turn. With a wing loading less than 1:1 he managed to put himself into line twists. He was able to kick out of them but it was still pretty freaky because of his lack of experience, his low alititude, position (above obstacles) and quite a few other factors. Doing this same toggle manuver can eat up a good deal of altitude (if it results in line twists that you then must correct).
remember its not just what you do at 1,000 feet that can kill you.. its also what you do a little higher and take longer to correct.
http://kel197.tripod.com/skydivefriendsTRIPOD/

[Kirils 1]

Good question! As a new jumper keep asking them and you will one day be an old jumper! (Grin)
As addendum to the question: I know I can spin my Diablo and Stiletto. I am curious what canopies, let's say at a 1.5 loading, have the greatest tendency or reputation to spin on hard toggle turns? Thanks!
Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability...

[tlshealy 0]

Years ago we were taught and we taught students that there was nothing you could do under an open canopy to collapse it, so we would rock our PC's around and fly our strato clouds backwards etc., but with most of today's canopies that's not true, you wouldn't fly a plane and suddenly decide that your going to push the yoke forward and turn it as fast as you can and see what happens, same with canopies, experiment slowly with imputs until you know how a canopy is going to react.
Just my .02
Blue Skies
Tad

[marcin 0]

I saw a Sabre 170 getting into line twists at about 60 feet after toggle turn. The guy was above a building unable to turn and it looked quite scary. Somehow the large Sabres appeared to be prone to line twists...(?)
Marcin

[TEB6363 0]

Here is what I tell students. If you are under 1,000 feet - DO NOT CUT AWAY. This is assuming you are flying pretty stable and are not spinning fast or something strange. You can always deploy your reserve if you feel that more material over your head would be better than what is up there causing a problem.
Now, as Bill said, you should not be down to 1,000 feet and still have problems over your head. You should be in or beginning your landing pattern.
With more experience you can decide on your own what to do below 1,000 feet with a bad canopy. But for a low-time jumper, you would be safe to be pretty conservative with the canopy down low.
:::OK, Canopy is Open, No Traffic Around, .. Why are these "Extra" Lines Draping Down??, Damn!

[freebird 0]

Have there been any of cases where the risers have prevented a cuttaway because of the line twist were too hard. I am refering to the yellow cable being jammed due to the line twist and does not allow you to cutta away?
The longer you wait ........the more sense you get.

[freebird 0]

Have there been any of cases where the risers have prevented a cuttaway because of the line twist were too hard. I am refering to the yellow cable being jammed due to the line twist and does not allow you to cutta away?
The longer you wait ........the more sense you get.

[Geoff 0]

As a student I was taught - "Whatever canopy you have at 1500ft, that's the one you're going to land". I think that's good advice for beginners.
More experienced jumpers can attempt to make more complex judgements - low freefall cutaway, attempt canopy transfer if extremely low - whatever, but there are plenty of cases of even highly experienced jumpers getting hurt or killed because they tried something fancy and got it wrong.
Geoff

[billvon 2,991]

>Here is what I tell students. If you are under 1,000 feet - DO NOT CUT AWAY.
Yeah, me too. For students our altitudes are:
5000 feet - pull
2500 feet - decision altitude. If you cannot land it as-is by 2500 feet get rid of it.
1000 feet - never cut away below 1000 feet.
I also mention that if your canopy is completely destroyed below 1000 feet (i.e. someone hook turns right through it) and it is no longer landable, deploy your reserve without cutting away. Not ideal, but will give you a better chance of survival than trying to land an unlandable main (or, worse yet, cutting away at 150 feet.)
-bill von

[billvon 2,991]

>Have there been any of cases where the risers have prevented a cuttaway
> because of the line twist were too hard. I am refering to the yellow cable being
>jammed due to the line twist and does not allow you to cutta away?
Yes, there have been several cases of this. In one famous case in 1995, Ernie Butler had line twists so bad that he could not cut away at all, even with all his strength using both hands. He ended up dumping the reserve into the spinning main. He barely survived the landing, and was in the hospital a long, long time (broken back, pelvis etc)
Mike Turoff researched a solution several years ago that involves inserting hard housings into the cable channels on the risers themselves. This seems to solve the problem. A few manufacturers offer this option now.
-bill von

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Freebird, I have heard of severe twists causing stiff cutways, similar to a hard pull, if you know what I mean.
I beleive the circumstances were small, high performance, highly loaded, spin susceptible canopies like stillettos.
You should be okay with your Sabre, and besides, you ordered a javelin, which comes with hard riser cutaway channels as standard to help avoid such drama. As I said in our PMs you have made some wise/well advised choices in your equipment selection my wee pal......
Cya
D

[rendezvous 0]

Let's say you have a canopy with line twist at 1000 ft ( for whatever reason that may be ) not all that controllable and you choose to deploy the reserve without cutting it away. Would that lead to the possibility of creating a down plane. If so wouldn't it be better to cutaway a uncontrollable line twisted canopy even if you are just under 1000 ft, and specially if you have a RSL which would bring out the reserve without too much time being wasted. I know RSL is not to be relied upon but in this case should it's existence be considered in the decision making process.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Have there been any of cases where the risers have prevented a cuttaway because of the line twist were too hard. I am refering to the yellow cable being jammed due to the line twist and does not allow you to cutta away?

Definately. In fact it happened to Missy Nelson about two monthes ago.
Missy was extreemely lucky. With both hands pulling she simply could not cut-away her spinning mal because the twists had gone right down her risers to where the cuttaway cable is housed. When she got low, she simply pulled her reserve while still under her spinning main. The reserve pilot chute came out, instantly started wrapping around her. She fought the reserve pilot chute, and eventually got her reserve to deploy wile STILL under her spinning main. Through sheer luck, her reserve opened (line twists, obviously). She then cut away the main and got out of the line twists before landing.
If you're ever at Skydive Chicago ask her or Roger about it. Frickin scary shit, that.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
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[billvon 2,991]

>Let's say you have a canopy with line twist at 1000 ft ( for whatever reason that
> may be ) not all that controllable and you choose to deploy the reserve without
> cutting it away. Would that lead to the possibility of creating a down plane.
Yes.
>If so wouldn't it be better to cutaway a uncontrollable line twisted canopy even if
>you are just under 1000 ft, and specially if you have a RSL which would bring out
>the reserve without too much time being wasted.
As I stated above, it depends. If you have everything going for you that might work. If you have a lot of problems it may not. Experienced jumpers should make the decision based on their knowledge of the problem.
-bill von

[rgoper 0]

chances are, if you're at 1000' and you have line twists, there probably self induced by making "spiral turns" with your canopy, i've seen this on various occasions, and luckily, each time the jumper has kicked out of them, and landed uneventfully. the reason i make the remark about self induced line twists at 1000' agl, is because if you have twists at 1800', why ride em down to 1000'? have a hard deck, initiate emergency procedures if the need arises. and try to not make any "spiral turns" under 1000' just for this very reason. these are just some thoughts, no rules "carved in stone" experienced canopy pilots can pull theses things off without a hitch, but never "overestimate" your own abilities, especially if your just off of student status.
Richard
"Aw Yes They Call Me The Breeze"

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

chances are, if you're at 1000' and you have line twists, there probably self induced by making "spiral turns" with your canopy

I disagree, and I've been there twice (Stupid on my part probably).
Both times were the result of opening a little lower than normal, my canopy spinning up a little more than usual, and me trying a little too long to fix the problem. Neither time was the result of self-induced line twists you describe.
These days I'm a little more aware of my altitude, a little more aware of my body position, and a little more careful with my packing. I don't want to be there again.
I guess the point is that there are several ways to end up there, let's not assume that people were doing hard spirals under 1000 ft to get in that situation.
-
Jim

[rgoper 0]

**chances are, if you're at 1000' and you have line twists, there probably self induced by making "spiral turns" with your canopy**
"probably" is the key word in this phrase, now i'm not going to take you back to high school english 101. in any event, the remark i made was due to the canopies i have personally witnessed in the last 2 1/2 years line twisted up due to (and i didn't want to say this earlier) students flying gigantic underloaded canopies and trying to "spiral" turn ther're canopies. have you ever seen this? and if you find yourself low, and your lines are all twisted up, and you deployments going to hell, and you've lost track of your altitude, what are the odds?
Richard
"The Real Fun Begins At Deployment Time"